Mini 1390: Game Over

[_Sherlock_]

yeah i am still feeling slight town from kwll.

his play in his mafia game he is just much more concise and comprehensive which id imagine is due to pressure to scumhunt/have reasons for reads. i see much less of that here so looks genuine.

This is what I noticed earlier that I wanted to keep quiet about. I wanted to wait and see if the contrast consisted. More specifically, kwll seemed to latch onto his reads as scum. He replaced into that game as well, and he immediately cast suspicion on Aether. He then consistently attacked that throughout the game. Here, he has shown no attempt to start this method. I personally think that kwll is trying to play with the metagame; therefore, kwll is town.

[Cheery Dog]

sure thing...I can give more detail after i cook dinner...trying to post and cook...lol....please specify which points you wish for me to clarify and I will be glad to do so .

I think the most confusing one is the abaddon read.
I'm really not sure how any of that works.

changing topics, because I have something else to procrastinate instead of it, I'm probably going to attempt to tackle the questions put to me toxic's 288 today.

[kwll]

@ I am waiting for what you wish for me to clarify
I do have a question cheery. Why do you think scum want you live to LYLO? I admit I havent read that type of logic in any of the completed games I have red.

[TheTrollie]

I've been mentioning that scum want to keep me alive for LYLO because that's what I believe my scumread of thetrollie is doing with the defending of me based on said meta.

let me make this abundently clear: i have NO intention of letting you live to LYLO. I also have no intention of letting us get to LYLO in the first place (which is why i was against your lynch in the first place)

but also...i cannot fathom this post by cheery. Cheery, are you saying that you consider yourself a bad player/scumhunter? do you not trust your ability to read others? why do you think scum would want to keep u alive till lylo. (i agree they would but its unreasonable for someone to say this about themself because that player would vote according to his own reads in LYLO, and the reason to NOT want a certain player in LYLO would be because you dont trust that player's reads).

Cheery, explain yourself.

[nhammen]

Searching for a replacement for Radelle.

Vote Count 1.9

TheTrollie(5): Idiotking, Deltabacon, Cheery Dog, Abaddon, kwll
Radelle(3): _Sherlock_, toxictaipan, Tommy
Abaddon(2): Slandaar, Radelle
JacobSavage(1): TheTrollie
kwll(1): JacobSavage

not voting (1): absta101

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is in

(expired on 2012-11-17 17:30:00)

btw do I need to unvote to vote?

No

[Cheery Dog]

I believe myself to be a loose cannon in terms of where I will sometimes place votes, and can be easily fooled into thinking a certain way. I'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

As someone who has a play style that is currently called scummy quite often, I feel that scum would want me in LYLO as easy mislynch bait. I've tried thinking through other scenarios as to your defence of a null read which led me to this conclusion, but I'm unable to work out why from a town perspective you would be shooting down all attackers for a person you have a null read on (and also not actually give reasons for whom your own vote is on)

@Toxic (from 4 pages ago): I'm not actually sure, I guess it must have come from the gut when reading the defences that I felt they were good. It may also be that I felt the attacks on her were bad. I still have a current (probably gut since I don't think I can explain what it is that I'm finding town) town read on Radelle.

Delta's attack on trollie is about the same reason as mine (although having me as a scum buddy, which is the only problem I have with that case), idiot's makes sense and I don't actually find any problems with his attacks.
At the time Jacob may have also been voting (I don't remember the post number that this stemmed from originally), I didn't really like the reasons given in thread, but when they are hidden on a spreadsheet somewhere it is hard to tell, which means Trollie is possibly right in his opinion of the spreadsheet being scummy.
Abaddon doesn't really give much out with his reasoning and therefore is hard to work out his intent for voting him, and is pretty much only scraping the surface for votes.
kwll (who I know wasn't on the wagon at the time of your post), is just a mishmash of everyone else's reasons, but I'm confused by how he reached all of his reads.

@kwll, I want some more details about abaddon

Ab most of your attacking seem to be either against Trollie which would be a easy lynch consindering his play. but I didnt like the way to attacked Randal for posting about trollie.

Is him attacking trollie town or scum play?
Where did Radelle post about Trollie for him to have attacked about it? and where is said attack for this?

[TheTrollie]

'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

can you provide this link?

I shot down the arguments on you because they were bad, and because I did not want a lynch to happen for bad reasons that people mistook for good reasons. This is different than DEFENDING YOU, i was not defending you, i was holing arguments to a higher standard than the players calling you scum

[Cheery Dog]

'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

can you provide this link?

I shot down the arguments on you because they were bad, and because I did not want a lynch to happen for bad reasons that people mistook for good reasons. This is different than DEFENDING YOU, i was not defending you, i was holing arguments to a higher standard than the players calling you scum

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=23516 (now kwll can say I'm referring to meta if he so wants since I've provided this link)

I find shooting down arguments to be a defence. If you were using them to attack back then it wouldn't be as much a defence, but you've just been saying they are bad.

[toxictaipan]

I don't know what you guys are thinking, but your reasons for clearing kwll are dumb. I don't have a clue why you are trying to tack a meta read on a player who is only in his third game. A player who is only in his third game

does not have

a meta. Period. This is horrible, terrible, awful, horrible, bad.

BAD

I also don't understand how lack of coherence is a town tell. Anyone who can not form a comprehensible argument as town can't do it as scum, either. You don't magically become better at arguing because you're scum. If his play was so radically better as scum (note: I didn't check the game), it wasn't

because

he was scum, but more likely because of some outside influence such as receiving coaching from his scum buddies,

et cetera

.

[kwll]

They are correct in some ways. I do prefer short posts...mainly because I hate walls and that it is easier to refer to.
I truly find watching players interact as very interesting.
Toxic I do not understand why you wish to attack their game style play. I admit everyone plays different so either you are trying to save the town from making a mistake against everyone or wish to keep us in confusion. I think I should mentioned you have now confused me since I am trying to play different with my new role.

[TheTrollie]

no, ur wrong, you try hard to sound comprehensive and make arguments as scum.

[kwll]

you guyz type fast.... Trollie...was that directed at me...I was writing a response to cheery

[Cheery Dog]

you guyz type fast.... Trollie...was that directed at me...I was writing a response to cheery

You should use the quote button then, I thought you were talking to toxic.

I can't even tell which part of my post you're talking about

[kwll]

sorry you asking for me to clarify for you...I was writing my response...I saved what i wrote to notepad...so i can keep adding......looking for quote

sure thing...I can give more detail after i cook dinner...trying to post and cook...lol....please specify which points you wish for me to clarify and I will be glad to do so .

I think the most confusing one is the abaddon read.
I'm really not sure how any of that works.

changing topics, because I have something else to procrastinate instead of it, I'm probably going to attempt to tackle the questions put to me toxic's 288 today.

[kwll]

there we go...getting better....I am horrible at this formatting but I shall get better!!!

[kwll]

I am behind in post so i have yet to address Toxic post...it seemed more general at the public which I am going to address...I was defending my statement from trollie and you

[kwll]

for the record.. I notice I am voting for someone i didnt....

unvote

[kwll]

EBWOP

MOD you have trollie down twice with me having a single vote...I should counted with everyone else

sorry for the confusion I hope that corrected it

[kwll]

should i wait for the mod to fix vote count...I believe trollie is at L-2

[kwll]

my case on him

will be posting a bad quote thing of him so please if my format fails...its I tried...

[kwll]

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

So I'm an idiot for calling you out for doing something idiotic like leaving your vote in rvs while attacking someone?

So idiotic, whether I'm scum or Town, that the only plausible explanation is that it was a simple error, rather than intention. I practically said "I'm going to vote you for that, right now," then failed to bold my vote.

seems little bit off

Which, at present, does not include you. It's very easy to make a statement, then sit in judgment as others make your case for you.

I'm calling your bluff. I disagree with your premise, and want you to prove it.

sounds like scum trying not to be active

Radelle, I don't need to be unfair to find you scummy. Attacks on scum that are just plain bad only give you ways to worm your way out of it by calling foul.

You're still scummy, but I won't abide no-logic attacks just because they're aimed in the right direction. That's hypocrisy of the worst sort, and I won't put up with that.

his attacks are strong and make me wonder if he is trying not to be the kettle black

Toxic's alleged reaction test is not dependent on Sable Tip's alignment, it's dependent on how people reacted to Toxic's strange behavior.

You are telling me scum will not react differently depending on Sables alignment? You are wrong. Clearly. (It also depends on Toxic's alignment)

Assume Sable is town and someone says 'Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. However, I want to see if our thoughts corroborate. What are you seeing?' Do you agree with Toxic that is a good indicator of town?

Absolutely. Townies are just as capable at looking scummy as scum are. That doesn't change the fact that you investigate logical inconsistencies when you find them.

Abaddons response although the question wasn't aimed at him made sense in context.

I have literally no clue what you are saying here and how it relates to what I said at all. Explain it to me.

You seem to be completely missing the point.

Yes, there will be a small variance depending on whether Sable Tip is scum or not, but let's follow that postulate the rest of the way. You're tacitly saying that the only real purpose of the reaction test was to catch Sable Tip's scumbuddies geeking out based purely on a bald declaration of suspicion. That's utterly absurd.

Like I said, you're completely missing the point. The reaction test, as stated, has very little to do with Sable Tip's alignment, or with which alignment Toxic assigned to him. Toxic took a thoroughly neutral post and made a bold declarative statement, then refused to back it up. The reaction test was for peoples' reactions to

Toxic's

actions, not Sable Tip's post. He could have emphatically declared Sable Tip Town while refusing to explain why for a near-identical effect. The slight variance of whether Sable Tip was scum or not utterly pales in comparison to the far more distinct question of how people would react to Toxic's actions.

Get your head out of your ass, Slandaar. This is obtuse and narrow-minded, even for you.

seems like we are starting to really act...perhaps distancing?

^This absolutely reeks of opportunism.

Seriously rethinking my NewTown position on Cheery Dog.

Bah, this thread has way too many scummy players and far too few Townie ones.

Now...why would we be saying this? Are we attempting to hide our scum by being the only active player playing at this time and strongly arguing? Which makes me wonder later if he is bussing his partner later on. This could also be a town read on trying to get things started...

Just for giggles:

Town

Abaddon

Leaning Town

toxictaipan - I've come around on his reaction test, or maybe just convinced myself through shooting down bad attacks on it.
Idiotking - Generally positive behavior, nothing scummy of note.
Tommy - I disagree with a lot of his positions, but he seems to be making genuine effort.
Slandaar - Even moreso than Tommy, I disagree, but he's making efforts.
Deltabacon - Need more content, but what we've seen has been reasonably well-conceived.

Neutral

Sable Tip - Getting mixed signals here. There have been a few cases made, but the degree to which they're ineffective suggests there's not much there.
TheTrollie - Who?
JacobSavage - No content whatsoever.
Parama - Plenty of room for a replacement to redeem. This is a mostly null slot, honestly, given Parama's track record.

Leaning Scum

Cheery Dog - I've reread his ISO and I'm more strongly getting a newscum vibe now. He wants to attack anything that moves and doesn't listen to any kind of advice.

Solidly Scummy

JasonWazza - See below.
Radelle - Strong, strong gut response to her early vote on Toxic and clumsy defense of it. Creates strawman arguments against her biggest opponents, and goes out of her way to cast others in questionable lights.

Okay, so there's a lot less scum in the thread than I thought...maybe I'm mixing up overall impressions with other games.

You didn't actually present any kind of cogent case for her to engage with. I read it as barely better than an RVS vote. Perhaps you should improve your position before issuing a challenge for refutation.

My position is fine as is, it doesn't require any more clarification, and should have been addressed by Radelle when she (is it she or he? just to stop confusion) posted.

I am questioning her posts and trying to get answers that determine her intents, why should i improve my position?

While ISOing, I noticed that I never responded to this.

Your post 52 was irrelevant. You didn't post any kind of real reason for voting, then got in Radelle's face when she didn't respond to it.

Given that this is your only real content, it was a weak attack to start with, you never clarified nor pressed Radelle for a response, and that this is what you're hanging your hat on so far, this is solidly scummy. It looks a LOT like weak bussing, then coasting. It's really hard to look at your ISO and not break the usual "no scum team assembly on Day One" rule, but

I'm going to call a Radelle-Jason team.

here I direct you towards toxic and his thoughts.

I'm really disliking a lot of what Trollie's had to say lately. It's coming off as really disingenuous. The two-faced hedging about CD (particularly 266) and the blithe manner in which he takes things that are not conclusive and makes definitive statements about them (such and such makes this person Town or scum, 283 & 285 contain good examples).

Unvote
Vote: Trollie

I suggest an ISO...wasnt to may post in between

[kwll]

first time trying that so I hope it went well...any questions please ask

[Tommy]

TheTrollie: yes, I read _Sherlock_'s point as he intended it the first time round - the point about the spreadsheet. He also pointed out that JacobSavage entered the game with an explicit lack of direction. JacobSavage could have launched in with an easy attack on someone, but instead he was open about having no reads and appealed for help.

[Cheery Dog]

@kwll I still doesn't understand how that relates to what you posted after you were prodded. It's looks like you've build that post up from scratch and that your reads on 14 are what they first turned out to be, a mish mash of idiotking's reasonings and a few extra spices thrown in where they don't fit.

and thetrollie is going to be back at L-3 because of your #391 where you unvoted.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar: I was waiting for you to get back from V/LA so it didn't get buried in the thread.

Reference: Post 290.

So you're saying it benefits town just as much as scum to selectively ignore whatever they want?

"What conflict Toxic? it makes perfect sense in context." Yeah, maybe when you change the entire context, like you just did. I mean, come on, you completely omitted the

emphasized

portion of her post (by the way, changing quotes/contexts is scummy). Radelle made a big deal about how I, "never," called her scummy, even in the post I voted for her. After I explained myself, she said, "That's a lotta words trying to explain that you had actually called me scummy

at some point

."

No. My version was correct.

I personally think that kwll is trying to play with the metagame; therefore, kwll is town.

Explain this to me; what do you mean by playing with the metagame?

Why is post #186 a town post?

Added to previous; It also Doesn't make sense to defend town there if Radelle were scum as Cheery would be a viable counterwagon for her. Therefore it only comes from town. Basically; scum under fire trying to douse a viable wagon to their own? doesn't happen even if the other were scum due to the ties it forms well... not from a newbie anyway.