Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[pirate mollie]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

except that to me it reads that he was agreeing with adam about what adam thought was my inconsistency not the use of my meta to confirm his case.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Guile (L-2): ProHawk, Pirate Mollie, Mantisdreamz
Mantisdreamz(L-4): borkjerfkin
borkjerfkin (L-4): Adam-12

Not Voting: leviathan93

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[pirate mollie]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

after getting a bunch of votes for really dumb reasons I was okay with my lynch cos I am not someone I would want in lylo! with this much suspicion and decided to just go for it and mine as much info for my team which is what I am trying to do. if you are town you will be okay with this. if you are scum you will be pushing for an easy lynch. you will be accountable for a pile of dead town if that is what you are going for. this is not rocket science.

[Mantisdreamz]

VOTE: Mantis
I think equating activity level to towniness is a cop out.

no it's not.

and plus, that's not really what i'm saying. i was saying that i don't think both scum players (say, guille and levi) would just say, hey let's just not post much.

i was saying that i think at least one scum would probably be relatively active. so no - i don't think that activity level equates to town, since i just said at least one scum would probably be active.

[borkjerfkin]

You're towing the line here.

You're saying in #577 (I'm paraphrasing) that [you don't think both scum would be huge lurksacks].
In addition, you're saying that they're [both scummy but that they're probably not on a team.] (#554)

I don't have a huge problem with either of those statements on their own, even if they're circumstantial and therefore not necessarily true (it's feasible that both scum would have a passive playstyle or have issues that would cause them to only make minimal activity requirements). But fine.

Finally, you think that Levi's looking bad because he's not being active enough (#499, #553, and I acknowledge that this isn't the only reason that you're giving in #553.) But I can't tell what you're trying to do here. You say they're both scummy but they're not on a team, somewhat because Levi is being inactive, but lurking isn't necessarily a scumtell because you don't think both scum are lurking? Does anyone else see the problem here? Why do you get to use that against Levi? You SHOULD want to lynch either of them if you think they're both scummy. I never asked you if you thought they were a team -- that shouldn't MATTER to you on day 1. In fact, if we lynched one and they flipped scum, I would expect a certain behavior out of you consistent with that PoV tomorrow.

Furthermore, your attack on Guille in #484 seems to me like you're saying Guille is scum because he's pushing a case for a Mollie lynch. That's it. You're not commenting on the validity of the case or any opportunism with regard to the wagon hop, just the fact that he's making "long posts with links". How does that even remotely tell alignment?

[Mantisdreamz]

i'm saying that both of them seem scummy to me. but i am probably wrong on maybe one. NO. I do not think that both SCUM WOULD NOT put effort.


or maybe even wrong on both. people can seem scummy and still be town, borkjerfkin.

[Mantisdreamz]

Furthermore, your attack on Guille in #484 seems to me like you're saying Guille is scum because he's pushing a case for a Mollie lynch. That's it. You're not commenting on the validity of the case or any opportunism with regard to the wagon hop, just the fact that he's making "long posts with links". How does that even remotely tell alignment?

i think pro hawk summed it up well in one post of his, where he said that sometimes scum will go to great lengths to build cases on a flaily looking town.

guille even went to the point of pointing out how mollie used the word "grooming"


mollie - you know Martin from tr? that is his scum tell. he focuses on one person, and finds a really good case on them because they contradicted themselves, at some point.

[ProHawk]

Oh Guille.... where are you?

[pirate mollie]

hey hawk boy do you want to remark on how I pointed out that guille's accusation was that I was inconsistent wrt adam's case or do you want to chalk it up to meta building on guille's part?

[ProHawk]

I don't even get what you are asking, but I would rather finish my read on Guille before I get back to tunneling you.

[borkjerfkin]

people can seem scummy and still be town, borkjerfkin.

And? Town realizes that they're not going to be right all the time. This is the sort of disclaimer scum gives.

#580 doesn't explain anything. I'll ask plainly: Why's this

particular case

Guille is making on Mollie indicative of scum making a case on town? What does talking about "grooming" have to do with it?

[leviathan93]

Borkjerfkin has understandable and logical reasoning. I like logic and reasoning. Also because its trying to be clear and understandable and make a point that helps town, it gives me a town read.

I'll read more now and post my thoughts on it.

[leviathan93]

Shrimp, Guilles scumminess is in plain sight, but beyond the field of view. Go re-read guille's posts and you should pick some up. If not, give us reasons why you think he is town and we can go from there.

Mollie, only if you are a girl cause guys' radiant beauty generally have no effect on me. Also, you forgot one of the biggest aspects of working with someone. It would also give you the knowledge of what exactly to do to fool the other. You have already refuted your point in a previous post, so this angle isn't a good one to work. Meta cases are weak.

I somewhat disagree with you hawk boy. lol, just got into a post game discussion with majiffy over this cos he pretty much agrees with you. I use meta when it is a player that I know pretty well. like I know their work schedules, sleep schedules, etc. meta is not the only scumhunting tool I have in my box, I use different things for different games. in some games meta is the

only

tool I have cos some players will be so objectively scummy game after game and lynching or fosing doesn't seem to have an effect on them so they are not going to improve their game no matter what you do so you have to learn their town tells and most definitely their special tells. <----- do you guys call these relative tells here?

meta or pattern-matching should not be used when you are new or if you suck at it. it is only an asset if you can provide consistent reasoning behind what they are thinking or how they are posting in the game but then when it comes to making cases based on meta alone you are right it is pretty weak and you have to develope a reputation for it in order to get people to listen to you. but sometimes I have known who scum were on d2 just by the nk choice alone and that is a meta thing.

having said all of that my town read on mantis

is

meta based cos of her hardcore wk of adam which tbh I don't fully understand but then she often sees things that I don't. her posts look genuine to me but I get why this looks suspicious to other people who don't know us or our history or why we would think the way that we do.

the thing is that I have been a part of more town wins as town by finding town rather than just trying to find scum. you make me nervous cos I am not entirely sure what as scum you are capable of. if I had a barometer of what your scum game looked like you would be easier to read and no I am not going to look at your previous games cos I am not in them. I reaction test in a different way and I am not about to give up what I am looking for. I have shifted you to town but probably for reasons you might not understand. I am more of a lateral thinker.

I definitely see this as being pro town or a townish thing to say. Mollie feels town to me.

[ProHawk]

Levi - I am so glad that you can quote a post. Now lets hear your

real

thoughts.

[Adam-12]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

So, you're saying you purposefully questioned Mala to look bad?

You are saying 2 things at once: 1) You drew bad attention from the beginning of the game, 2) You purposefully drew bad attention once you started getting votes on you

I don't understand this.

[leviathan93]

@prohawk so just because I quote a post that I agree with and believe says what I feel it means that I'm either 1. lying. or 2. is invalid, because its worthless? trying to make me look like scum hawkboy?

[leviathan93]

@prohawk so just because I quote a post that I agree with and believe says what I feel it means that I'm either 1. lying. or 2. is invalid, because its worthless? trying to make me look like scum hawkboy?

[Adam-12]

i know that she hates being mislynched as town. so that could account for her response.

So she is lying about the oppressed-lylo-martyr-logic?

What about being mislynched as scum?

[Adam-12]

I keep coming back to hawk boy cos of how sticky his vote is and he is not even trying to look anywhere else this is what I did in the audio game it gave me leeway to prime you and maestro for an endgame scenario as in I left you 2 alone and made so much noise with thor that it allowed the both of you to lay on the periphereal so that there was no clearcut path that pointed to either of you when I was lynched.

You were scum in that game? And made yourself a martyr for your team?

[Adam-12]

shrimp guy looks opportunistic as a smurf but again retarded town herd mentality/confirmation bias and all. adam and shrimp look like they might be classic forum mafia xenophobes as in they don't know how to assimilate different playstyles or lateral thinking unless you pretty it up for them.

I like lateral thinking which is why I appreciate Hawk's posts, had you as an initial town read and why I liked your between rounds communication so much. I have a serious problem with players who use lateral thinking as an excuse for scummy posts; based on your defense I don't see you as a "clean" lateral thinker.

Town aligned lateral thinkers don't use cog-dis in their defense; manipulative scum who know they are guilty do, under the guise of lateral thinking (see scum perfume & oppressed-lylo-martyr logic).

[Adam-12]

so if I step away from a d1 town pile on and look at who is skating on the edges it puts hawk boy, malacat, guille and levi in the forefront. not touching malacat til d3 and hawk boy is getting his hands somewhat dirty so if I work from a hawk boy might actually be town axis that leaves guille and levi. guille got super cranky and looks like he is playing it safe cos why has he not followed his "gut bad pizza read" read and just vote me already cos there is the possibility of knowing how I will flip that's why. that is what I mean by playing it safe.

I find this to be a very pro-town post segment.

@Mantis: Mollie normally does this as scum too, right? This is the first solid, non-manipulative defense I have found from her.

[Adam-12]

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

manipulative eh? where is the cog-dis btw?

Ok, I missed that you asked that question while quoting my post.

The cog-dis is how you use the faulty notion of "scum perfume" as an excuse for looking scummy. I would expect this defense from someone with less than 9 games, not somebody with over 90. The dissonance comes with other of your defense when you demonstrate deep knowledge of scum play. You can't possibly expect me to believe that somehow because you played scum your last 3 games that you can't help looking scummy; if you look scummy as scum then you are either a newb or scum trying to pull the same sort of defense that you are trying to pull now. Based on your skill set, its just not possible that "scum perfume" even exists in your game and your using it as a defense shows a scum mindset that is trying to overcompensate for its guilt with a faulty excuse.

[Adam-12]

Taking your logic to its natural conclusion, you should be D1 lynched every game UNLESS your gameplay is naturally pro-town and you don't need to be concerned with how you look but you say, "My game IS gonna look scummy" in which case you aren't in the realm of logic at all.

my game is protown cos after a while people learn that I naturally arrive on scum at some point but it is true it takes a stronger player to pull the retards off of me and circumvent scum. my play tends to attract retards and scum who are looking for an easy lynch.

you fucked up adam you know I am not scum and now you are reaching in order to mainstay your vote. you should look up what "tanking" means.

by what you have posted I am either teh ultimate scum queen or what I am does not make sense to you what does not make sense to me is that you are trying to have it both ways which is why I am fosing you hardcore.

Ok, this post was misunderstood by me upon first glance.

Once I am done with my catchup, I will also evaluate her overall gameplay from the perspective of a very subtle "tanker" now that she admits and clarifies it here.

I still feel that post #595 is right on the mark regardless.

[Adam-12]

ALL of his posts (few I might add) are like this. What is the deal with these fence sitters this game? Guille, you are taking your sweet time which just may be how you play, but its lookin bad to me. I would much rather see you take time to compile a complete post, instead of leaving us with bits and pieces and have to wait a whole day to get part B.

@Guille: Why did you say earlier that because you "have to go home" you cannot devote more time to Mafia; shouldn't it be the opposite?

[Adam-12]

@Pirate Mollie: The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game. I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

@Guille: Can you please clarify what you were asking about in this post and why you asked it? It seems irrelevant to me and I don't see where you were going with that question.

[Adam-12]

adam, hawk boy, does that explain why mantis thinks that I am town? when you have played together that much you pretty much have a good grasp of their meta. while mantis and I both have the potential to sneak past each other as scum it is very rare that one of us will give the other a super strong town read and it not be correct.

@Mantis: So is that correct or is it you want to wait until later. I don't recall you commenting on this yet?