Mini 1401 - Game over!

[roflcopter]

mason should not claim, sin has the right of it.

kthx, for fuck's sake read my posts i already answered your question when you previously asked me the same question

[Malakittens]

Going to straight respond to SK and then I'll respond to SiN and others in another post so it's not super long.

@ Mala: You haven't tried to debunk what I said about you in 738, even though the things I said triggered your wagon. That doesn't bode well for getting yourself out of the noose.

As for your reasons for the Mason(s) not claiming:

a) Force a possible cornered scum into claiming Mason and then having a real Mason counterclaim them.

Why in the name of god would a scum want to claim Mason? Since the Masons know their own, a scumclaim of Mason means instant death for the scum who made the claim (as any counterclaim will lock the lynch into a 1v1, and if the scum doesn't get lynched the first time, he's instantly lynched the following day).

b) The fact the mason claiming now will decrease the scum need to search for the mason or any other PR to be exact. If they don't claim the scum have a harder job to do rather than an easier one.

If the Mason(s) claim, then town has confirmed innocents, and now the scum have to choose whether or not they WIFOM a potential doc to kill off a confirmed townie (because confirmed townies mean they can't be mislynched, which is bad for the scumteam). Yes, it tells scum who a power role is; but if there's a doc in the game, good luck getting the confirmed Mason killed off before killing the doc. And confirmed townies are much more valuable than power roles because, again, they can't be mislynched, and because you know they'll always be telling their honest opinions.

c) You're potentially asking for a protective role to protect a claimed Mason where it can be used elsewhere.

And how is not protecting a confirmed town member a good idea, exactly? Au contraire, this actually makes a doc even more useful by confirming a good target to him.

1. Frankly this question boils down to why any scum would fake-claim a role in any game. Main point is I have seen corned scum do some crazy things for extra time.

2 & 3. I agree that the Mason claiming is probably a good thing, but it's not when the protection role can be used elsewhere. If there is something else that is more important for protection that should be used rather than asking for a mason claim.

Forgive me if I think that looks a lot more like you're against Mason claiming than for it, particularly with the "way more advantages to waiting" line. When, exactly, do you purport to be a good time for the claim?

No, you are just treating my words in that way. Yes there are currently way more advantages to having the mason wait to claim rather than them claiming at this moment. A good time for the claim possibly a day or so more. All I know is that I feel a mason claiming right now is not the best time.

Incidentally, I think SiN has a good point regarding not doing the claim until tomorrow.

You do realize if you read my prior posts before SiN that I made the exact same point as him, but it wasn't as subtle. So why are you saying he has a good point, but totally disregarding any points that I have said which basically is the same exact thing.

[Malakittens]

I do see the wishiwashiness on the conman read, though. Mala doesn't really analyze conman until he's right about to be lynched; she questions him a lot, she explains why he could be scum (but not really why he could be town), but she never actually goes through with a vote on him until the very end. Mala, was your only reasoning for conman-town that he gave you a newtown vibe?

Actually, I was questioning and analyzing him for a while, but I saw both reasons why he could have been scum or town for that matter. Part of me decided to go into that site that he was referring to and I actually did. Though I don't think I went far enough into it because I never saw anything that was related to mafia on the forums.

Another reason I was going back and forth with my read on Kthx and I thought that he was tunneling a lot on Conman which clouded my feeling for a possible scum-Con and SiN your adamant defense of Con was also giving me pause. Other than that I had no solid evidence that Conman-town was possibly town other than a new-town vibe.

Once I got down to digging deep onto Conman I realized that he was probably scum because of the approach that was being taken. He was being very appeasing, but also because his reads were staying the same. I feel that town sometimes waffle a lot on reads especially with new posts coming out, but his reads weren't. I also noticed a lot of his reads were based on people who were attacking him for scum which was something that I felt was very close to OMGUSy. He was also asking for others reads on players, but not giving his own.

[Gorgon]

I think that about does it. If anything is unclear, just let me know.

Nope, that's very clear. For my part it's hard to tell why Conman flipped to a town read on Slandaar but I think his flip back to voting him was riding a wagon that looked good. Could have been distancing as well but it's hard to tell.

@Gorgon p706 - Kthx was siting my play in this game as contrary to my Town meta, but that meta =/= consistent with my Scum meta either. There is only one way to debate meta arguments and that's with meta. Sure it's WIFOM, but any meta argument ultimately is.

Fair enough. It is true that from the context you were expanding on Kthx's meta argument.

he did something kinda scummy and newbish, and you jumped on him, i posit because you knew he was scum and thought he was in the process of getting himself caught so you had to do damage control.

I can't really argue that this an unfair viewpoint, but it could basically apply to anyone who voted him at that time. He did a scummy thing and a bunch of people voted him, and obviously only a limited number of them at most were scum. Most or even all of them were town. An explanation as to why my vote in particular is more likely than others to fit this 'damage control' scenario would therefore be appreciated.

then the wagon didn't catch fire as quickly as anticipated and you bailed right out.

Sorry what? I bailed out because the wagon caught

too much fire too quickly

as he got one vote away from being lynched. I'm getting pretty tired of and asking for an explanation as to why that unvote does not fit with me being town. You did however manage to take this to new heights by implying that the situation was exactly the reverse of what it was.

you spent the rest of the day firmly opposing a conman lynch by virtue of supporting any other lynch.

No, I did not support any other lynch. Is that concise enough?

i dare you to prove this statement. you're dressing an opinion up as a fact (that reading around dead scum for partners is unreliable) simply as a way to shirk my accusation leveled at you using this method.

It's obviously unreliable in this case as it initally led you to voting me and I am town. The opinion/fact angle here is therefore a funny one as this is a fact to me but merely an opinion to any other town player at this stage in the game. One way of proving it completely would be to make me dead and confirmed, but I'm obviously not too fond of that method personally. But generally speaking I would have thought it would be obvious that the more facets you throw at a reads the more reliable they get.

Anyway, your accusation that I am by virtue of this statement shirking from your case against me is a pretty cheap one considering that my answer to your case was pretty detailed and that the statement was basically an exhortation to read day one more thoroughly from more angles and give me and others something more to work with.

[Gorgon]

As far as masons go, I don't think it's a good time to have them claim with NS's softclaim floating around. If a protective role could keep him alive tomorrow and scum miss the remaining masons, we'll be looking beautiful when we go into tomorrow.

I actually remembered NS's claim after I had given my thoughts on the mason thing and realized that it affects it. It's probably better to wait until tomorrow and drop the subject for now.

[Kthxbye]

Why do we assume that we have a protection role exactly??

[Gorgon]

Funny, Rofl, you are a funny, funny man. Funny how the two deaths that you want right now are actually pushing for your death atm. Not counting Gorgon, but Qwints/I are.

I agree that this is cheap. Rofl didn't even vote for her or qwints but me, who as Mala says herself was not pushing for rofl's lynch. Also, rofl's top two suspects were clearly Mala and me with qwints kind of a reluctant third (rofl even gave mitigiting circumstances for him) so putting the focus on Mala and qwints and painting rofl's cases as OMGUSy was disingeneous. It's not a protown reaction to them IMO.

Only person who I think is probably scum on that wagon is Rofl.

all town wagon on malakittens is all town

No, you're not confirmed town, Rofl, please don't try and act like you are. You are the only one on the wagon who I believe isn't town, but I do think SK and NS probably are.

It doesn't look to me like rofl was acting like conftown, merely saying "Nope, we're all town." I can easily see this coming from town so I don't really get what Mala intends to get out of 'calling him out on it' as she explains in a later post.

I think this is what has been giving me weird vibes about her for a while; she's prone to prodding people for this and that without really going so far as call them scummy for them. SK's #731 gives a nice example of this.

I also decided to look into her Conman vote. She is pretty noncommital in her #503, even though she is answering qwint's accusation about her being scummy for avoiding the major wagons. She takes the opportunity to comment on them but it still looks like she might very well support either of them or even neither. Then Kthx switches his vote over to Slandaar, and at that point it I think it would have been a fair assumption that Conman's wagon was collapsing, especially since Kthx had been by far the staunchest advocate for a Conman lynch.

Then

it would have been pretty safe to vote him for some distancing after giving him one more prod.

So yeah ...

VOTE: Malakittens

[Gorgon]

Why do we assume that we have a protection role exactly??

It's pretty rare to have a game with no protection roles, but this is exactly the reason why this mason claim discussion is potential thin ice. It leads to all sorts of tangents about roles in general which I'm not sure are entirely beneficial for town. The more we talk about it with nothing happening as a result the thinner the ice gets.

[Gorgon]

The strangest thing that I found about Slandaar's vote yesterday is that he didn't join the counterwagon that was forming on conman. As town or scum, it makes no sense not to jump on someone's counterwagon so close to deadline when it's essentially a choice between you or the counterwagon, unless you know that person's alignment for sure. I don't know why Slandaar keeps pushing his vanity wagon even though the entire game pretty much disagrees with him. It's not really a rational push anymore, and I have no idea whether he is doing it as a scum strategy or whether he believes that d3x absolutely is scum and believes he can get him lynched at the rate he's been going lately.

Well, it helps to keep in mind that Slandaar stated emphatically that he would rejoin the Conman wagon eventually and I tend to believe that. So the d3x push was a deliberate yet temporary tangent from that, which obviously is permanent now that Conman is dead. For a while I thought it was such a weak and unconvicing tangent that it reeked of a manufactured case to look like he was being proactive and making a case of his own, which is why I voted him (twice now), but as can be seen by my unvote I'm now leaning more town on him now.

[Kthxbye]

Well, mala is now at L-2. I hate being wrong but I should stop tunneling I guess. Let's pretend Mala is town for a second, If I put her at L-1 and somebody hammered, who would be the scum on her wagon?

[Kthxbye]

Saint Kerrigan, roflcopter, Nobody Special, Gorgon, (me), (hammerer)

[Malakittens]

Question Kthx.. If you have a town read on me; why would you even vote me in the first place. Hypothetically speaking.

[Gorgon]

Saint Kerrigan, roflcopter, Nobody Special, Gorgon, (me), (hammerer)

From my point of view by far the most likely scum out of the named ones there would be rofl although I think (my spat with him aside) his attitude has been more town than scum so far, and I have always believed the absta/Dun case based on their Conman votes and unvotes to be only plausible and far from concrete.

And now it's off to bed for me as it's pretty late and I should take a break before I fill up this page anyway.

[Kthxbye]

well, my question was a hypothetical one to begin with. I don't intend to vote you. I need to go back through the case without my tunnel vision glasses on. I don't like the lurking in this game though. I didn't even realize qwints was still in this game.

That thought made me read his ISO...yeah, based on my town reads and his votes thus far, I'm thinking if scum were bussing Con, it's probably Qwints.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Qwints

[d3x]

it should be pretty obvious by now that neither of you is successfully getting the other one lynched.

I dunno, I got Slandaar pretty close twice now.

I don't think that SK or NS are scum

Actually, right now the only person who is really conf-town would be the mason

These quotes sit really wierd with me. Mala, do you have reason to disbelieve the softClaim or the result?

I'm down with the Mason Claiming. I wish it didn't come up at all until Tomorrow, though. A ConfTown spot is stronger the smaller the Town size. With a Claim, we're banking on a protect Role to keep the odds alive.

Although SiN's p767 does actually give me a thought. We have essentially 3 ConfTown spots with the Mason Claim {4 from my point of view}. That's pretty damn decent odds for Today, even. It will also mean that unless the bonus NK gets wierd, we'll have 2 ConfTown Tomorrow too. I feel better about this already. I'm hard down for the Mason Claim.

I am a bit concerned about the potential makeup of this Town, though. We have 1 Investigative Role, 2{+?} Masons, 1 probVig... I don't think we'll have a Protect in there as well.

[Malakittens]

I don't have any reason to disbelieve it or the result, but imo the only person really conf-town is the Mason to me.

[Malakittens]

Lets wait for Slandaar and Qwints to come into the thread and post their views.

I think I'm going to bed though.

[Kthxbye]

Mason should claim. With a probable vig in the mix, I'd hate to see the other mason get shot accidentally. I highly doubt town has all the PRs we see plus a protective role. If mason does claim, scum will have to choose between him/her or NS or SK.

[SaintKerrigan]

Quick note: we shouldn't just automatically assume that the other kill is a vig kill. It's still possible for it to be the work of a serial killer.

1. Frankly this question boils down to why any scum would fake-claim a role in any game. Main point is I have seen corned scum do some crazy things for extra time.

Um, no. This is different because we already have a flipped Mason. That confirms that there's at least one other Mason already in the game. So, if a scum player fakeclaims Mason, it's guaranteeing the death of that scum player, either that day or the one immediately following it. Whereas if a scum player claims, say, Cop--a role that hasn't been confirmed to be in this game, unlike the Mason--there's still a chance for that scum player to live.

You do realize if you read my prior posts before SiN that I made the exact same point as him, but it wasn't as subtle. So why are you saying he has a good point, but totally disregarding any points that I have said which basically is the same exact thing.

Um, again, no. That was not the impression I got from what you said at all. You basically said (and have continued to say) "it's prolly a good idea, but I just don't know when we'd do it". It looks really noncommital, from my point of view. (Yes, I am aware that you now have narrowed it down to "a day or so more", but that doesn't changed what you said about it then.)

[SaintKerrigan]

EBWOP: ...doesn't change what you...

[Malakittens]

Saint, I never said the Mason shouldn't claim. I never said that. I said it isn't the best time to do it now, but claim in a day or so. Which is basically what SiN said after me. I gave my reasons all of which is basically what SiN said, but not straightforward as he said it. I really hate when players give benefit to one for saying the same thing, but refuse to give the same to someone else.

Lets come to an agreement whether or not the remaining Mason should claim today or tomorrow.

[SaintKerrigan]

Saint, I never said the Mason shouldn't claim. I never said that. I said it isn't the best time to do it now, but claim in a day or so. Which is basically what SiN said after me. I gave my reasons all of which is basically what SiN said, but not straightforward as he said it. I really hate when players give benefit to one for saying the same thing, but refuse to give the same to someone else.

Frankly, I'm surprised that this is what you've decided to focus on, while ignoring the integral reason for why I (and others) have voted you.

[SaintKerrigan]

To answer your question: I'm for holding until tomorrow, but I could change my mind based on being reminded that there is a second kill present in the game. Still haven't thought that part out enough.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh hey, in case people haven't been paying attention (like me):

THE DEADLINE IS FOUR DAYS AWAY.

So we really need to get our beeswax together and get a lynch going.

My (very strongly) preferred lynch candidate is Malakittens. I am only willing to vote for one of d3x and Slandaar to prevent a no-lynch, and I'm not entirely sure that no lynch isn't preferable in that situation (I feel rather comfortable with my town reads on both of them). Qwints, maybe. I'd have to read up to see if I like that lynch.

tl;dr Let's lynch Mala.

[Malakittens]

Considering I won't be around tommorow since I'm working a long shift, but the only time I'll be around is on break or before I go in.

I'm claiming now, I'm huntress' Mason partner.

I was actually toying with the decision to claim and be confirmed town or keep it quiet once Huntress died.