Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[PJ.]

@All

More votes on Goodmorning please.

Also, This

[serrapaladin]

Yay, content!

Jacob's intent to hammer was bad. Like really bad.

I can see Panzer being right about Hydra or HD, but probably not both. Not sure about the goodmorning wagon, I had an overall town feel, besides a few weird accusations - I'll see how that develops.

Voting Venrob isn't doing anything. Even if he is scum, we won't get anything useful out of him for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jacob

Also, what on Earth was KX's 367? If you think someone is reaction testing, let them reaction test. Most of the reason why HD and Hydra might look town to you is because they've been making the most vocal cases against others.

[KX]

Pretty much just be more specific. You've made a number of claims so far, but call me stupid, I haven't been able to figure out how you arrived at those conclusions. Site specific examples and explain the reasoning behind your conclusion. I mean, you've made stabs at how your logic fits together, such as #358, but, at least for me, you never quite connect them together or to reality. I don't entirely disagree with you, as I said I find they should be investigated more, but I'm not seeing you doing that.

[Human Destroyer]

@Panzer

a) Why would a case more likely come from a scum mindset than a town mindset?

b) Which case(s) is/are false and why is/are it/they false?

[KX]

I never said the hydra looked town, please check over what I've said again. And while you could be correct about HD, please read what I said in the post. There simply isn't enough to go off of at this point. In case I haven't made this clear, I haven't seen how Panzer's logic fits together, and that was the only conclusion I could think of. Due to the lack of information, I believed that would only hurt Panzer while gaining us nothing. Perhaps Panzer is scum and deserves to be hurt, idk, but to me at least I would find reaction testing to be a pretty pro-town move, especially considering the target.

[serrapaladin]

You said "Panzer is trying to pressure SOME who are considered town." My point doesn't hinge on who you meant by that. Just because you don't agree with Panzer doesn't mean he doesn't have enough to go off.
If you think reaction testing is a town move, why would you sabotage it? Do you really think he doesn't know what he's doing?

[ArcAngel9]

[quote="In post 297, Human Destroyer"]Arc, what in particular about GM's reads don't you like?

I don't feel positive about GM's, He initially seems nice and all with KX and agreed with everyone that Josh is being odd and stuff, but actually didn't vote him. when I asked him reason for not voting Josh, His response doesn't seem genuine, His responded saying that he want to give benefit of doubt and rather want the day extended, if you feel someone scum it shouldn't basically stop you voting but that is not something that worried me about him right now, what worries me that, He voted Josh after everyone started his odd behavior of not voting Josh, that's a scary attitude.

That is is not it, He again said that i am ignoring facts and making my own facts, anyone who can read this thread can tell you that what i was talking about Josh wasn't incorrect. He clearly twisting my words here..

Initially I wasn't really sure about this person's behavior, All i found that his actions and responses didn't sit well but now i am now confident that he is scum. and i am not changing my vote from him.

[ArcAngel9]

Another person i am concerned about is Good Morning, He agrees with everyone about Josh being scum but actua
lly didn't vote him

You want him to have hammered now, yet you've now gone and taken your vote off him? This just doesn't make sense. My leaning town read on you has now dissolved.

What I meant was that, I found Josh scummy but he was prodded and there was a good chance he could replaced, so i changed my vote someone who i think may be scum. If everyone decides to lynch Josh i want to make sure that others know that i am with them on that.

[ArcAngel9]

Hmm, goodmorning actually makes a good point there.

ArcAngel: why did you mention Josh's RVS vote on you?

.

Where did i mention that my vote on Josh's was RVS, it was indeed serious vote. Where did you get that idea from?

[ArcAngel9]

And Jennifer replaces Josh Lyman! Loads of thanks, Jennifer!

Look, This was the something i was talking about..!!!

[KX]

@serra, isn't your question basically what I've repeated throughout all my post, that being I don't think there's enough information? In my mind, it was sabotaged from the start, and what I was doing was either confirming their intent, or preventing them from going through with a flawed plan. I will admit though that I am somewhat of an egotist, so yeah, to say that I'm the kind of person who might say they know what a person is doing better then the person themselves is a true statement. Also, I believe Panzer asked what I thought of the other subbed spot, and I never directly answered. My response is I'm neutral, while Josh behavior makes sense as scum, it's possible he was just acting nubishly. He didn't respond, and so I can't really judge.

[ArcAngel9]

HD & Serra,
What is your read on GM?

[Human Destroyer]

Jennifer's case actually interests me a lot, but I like my vote where it is currently.

Taking Jenn's case into account, I'd say GM's floating somewhere in the null range.

[PJ.]

@Panzer

a) Why would a case more likely come from a scum mindset than a town mindset?

b) Which case(s) is/are false and why is/are it/they false?

Cases disrupt the town by causing a back and forth that distracts from scumhunting

KX implied I was making false cases or exaggerating my cases. I was saying that deliberately doing either is scummy.

Pretty much just be more specific. You've made a number of claims so far, but call me stupid, I haven't been able to figure out how you arrived at those conclusions. Site specific examples and explain the reasoning behind your conclusion. I mean, you've made stabs at how your logic fits together, such as #358, but, at least for me, you never quite connect them together or to reality. I don't entirely disagree with you, as I said I find they should be investigated more, but I'm not seeing you doing that.

I'm not going to make a post by post case, because those are scummy. Instigating the use of scum suspect list is both anti-town and scummy as it directs the scum and does give the town any real benefit(good morning). Doing something with direct intent of gaining town cred to facilitate a mislynch(hd), Jumping from lurker to lurker to appear more town is scummy(good morning). i'm sure there's more but sleepy.

[Venrob]

I have time to get on this game for a minute or so, and i just read up...
UNVOTE:
VOTE: GM

G2G dinner is ready bye

[serrapaladin]

Josh is a person i am bit concerned about,

He randomly votes me first

and after 3 pages laters he made another posting saying that "every body is arguing over nothing" and later he gives bit lecture to KX , and right after he votex KX.

Over all 7 pages he has been nothing but "Null"

I don't know Josh before neither i have ever played with him I am wondering if this is how he play or he is scum and trying to avoid facing the game?

Unvote

VOTE: Josh

ArcAngel, this is the post GM and I were referring to. It's odd that in making a case against Josh you would mention "he RVS votes me" that far into the game. RVS votes are really irrelevant as soon as we've left RVS. Also, it's somewhat inconsistent that you decide he's been mostly null, but then vote him anyways. Your vote on Josh seems a bit fabricated overall.

I'm still leaning town on GM, although I'm interested to see how Jenn's case plays out.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Have you read his posts?

It's a way to focus not on the game and yet appear active.

He gave reasons why you're scummy and voted you. Just because you disagree with his reasoning doesn't mean he's not contributing.

Do you really need to argue definition of contribution? Or how about his focus was overly specific at kx when he's complaining about kx just discussing himself and said it was fine if done partly. Not commenting on most of the game is low contribution.

272's scum motivation is? He wasn't using the lurking as an excuse to add suspicion and it sounded more like a weak defense so unless AA is considered scum not sure what scum motivation it contains that nic and serra mentioned.

@294/AA, AA scum replace out just as well. If you think he's scum continue voting him. Josh being voted isn't just pressure it's because of a genuine desire to have him lynched. And AA can you give short reasons explaining your reads? (or long if you want to wall)

Serra you have more then the majority of the game agreeing with the suspicion on josh so maybe it's just the reasons you claim aren't enough are for others and believe do take them as scum tells.

@HD serra null is because of? Are you sure your scum thing is right in calling jacob's kx town read post scum motivated? I can see the reason not being the strongest to focus the read upon, but the scum motivation is what in saying it (assuming kx is town which I think he is)? A lot of the case really is fluffy and things like what does this have to do anything deals with responding to me (responses can be on a tangential point). His quickness to call jacob town there is mainly based on wagon dynamics which thought on the way vote is going is one of the complex things to look at and not something I'd consider scummy.

Josh would linking to fast wagons on scum be enough to kill that reason? Wagons have a tendency to be fast even with scum pushes. You commented on the wagon mechanics at first, but what about now. He's basically sat at L-1 for a while without hammer intent or anything. That not ring any alarms?

@Jennifer, purpose of 352 is? Maybe since a. not everyone posted and b. reads change. Reads jumping is usually more apparent in town players then scum. Scum read tend to want their reads to be consistent and flow more which is part of what makes stiff reads and part of why some consider tunneling a scum tell in the first place. The opinion is swap is completely fine alignment wise.

Internal argument will be done later vote wise, but personally I don't want the josh wagon to die and the fact it's dissipating so much to me is a big red sign.

AA jennifer came. So what happened to the read on her and doesn't the reason you unvoted her die if the slot's active again?

Josh was online to post so not responding comes to him and he did respond just without addressing much.

Ven can you explain your vote change and reads some?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And panzer isn't the argument on cases just that it's a different way to push things? HD thought jacob was scum. He pushed by a case which generally has more weight attached. How is pushing his scum read like that scummy? The back and forth discussion you're saying is a problem never occurred (and I'd argue back and forths are the best way to really see people pressured and discuss things instead of just having them calmly comment).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Lastly, emphasize the replacements don't kill the read on someone and wagon dissipating that easily on someone isn't a good thing and vague not good is the best way I can describe it beyond the fact ok posting is becoming a town tell somehow when jeniffer's attack on jacob still aren't really that much thought and just concrete based so these great replacement feelings I completely lack along with the focus on the gm vote which means both the L-1 vote and hammer intent on her slot are the things she looks at most and goes into with scum feelings (not sure if she calls jacob scum, but she implies that read).

~M

[serrapaladin]

Scum read tend to want their reads to be consistent and flow more which is part of what makes stiff reads and part of why some consider tunneling a scum tell in the first place

says the person who won't let go of the idea that the Jenn/Josh slot is scum.

[Docteur Gudsight]

If you'd like to be childish then I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more fickle players on this site with reads. I do tunnel to death if I believe something strongly, but beyond that jumping is fun.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And you're not counting yourself yet want to. My personal read on you hasn't changed.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And really of all things to attack you choose that for the way to weaken me? It's responding to one of the weakest things possible and seems like if you deal with it the rest is dealt with. Kind of like the original if you disagree with a reason discounting it with any real quotes for a response instead of responding to each quote if you really want to counter and understand the root of the suspicion.

~M

[Jennifer]

@Jennifer, purpose of 352 is?

Because I really wanted to know why town is letting legitimately scummy behaviors skate by without comment, while also being okay with a large wagon building on an inactive.

Given the way the wagon grew, I would bet that there is/was at least one scum on my wagon, so I looked at the subset of people voting me to see what their reasons were and to see if any popped out as making opportunistic votes. Those stood out.

Some questions for you too.

@Hydra

- Why didn't your last large wall of text discuss GM at all?
- What are your current views of GM?

p-edit
- You don't find anything odd with Jacob stating he has a town read on Josh and 12 hours later wanting to hammer his town read ending the day with little content in between, even though we still have a week left to find replacements/find scum? Explain the town motivation there. I'm missing it.

[Docteur Gudsight]

None. It's called he gave it already. And internal consistency as scum as a fairly noticeable thought process based both on my experience of it and the fact generally townies jump a lot more. It's why I said the fos on it looks like calling a scummy looking action scummy when it doesn't have much likelyhood of coming from scum more at all. Erratic voting is a fairly vig town tell in practice.

The votes that stand out are the ones near your death.

And my current opinion of gm was forgotten there, but it's the way the wagon formed on the tail of yours on top of the fact I like the reasons he gave for his read list (yeah I nagged on me being null but it's understandable similar to other reasons he gave) makes me heavily dislike the wagon.