Mini 1420: The Beginning Of The End (Game Over)

[q21]

Since q is letter 17 of the alphabet the numeric value of my username is obviously 38. Since this isn't divisible by 7, Elleran's vote for me is clearly based on bogus logic as he scummily tries to pull the wool over the town's eyes. This cannot be allowed to stand.

vote: Elleran

Also, OMGUS!

[q21]

Don't you guys know that trolls regenerate?

Are you defending him?

Clear scumbuddies then.

[q21]

Aren't we all looking excuses for everything?

No, we're looking for scum.

QFT

Elleran, you may have bested me in the maths argument, but a comment like this hints a certain mindset for which I am quite happy to leave my vote squarely where it is. Also, other people should vote Elleran.

2) To find scum, we must find good excuses for our actions.

This looks like your trying to get your foot out your mouth.

[q21]

Yeah...I'm thinking Elleran is town - flipping votes is actually more of a town quality, usually. Although it's really too early to tell.
I don't do RVS. I policy vote lurkers, always. Anyone that isn't "in on the action" immediately draws my attention.
So I'll sit and observe from my tower of evil.
Bwahahahahah.

Something in this posts smells a little. Flipping votes at this stage is null tell. Not participating while condemning those who don't participate is a little off. You've promised participation, if that isn't forthcoming I'll be coming back to this point. IGMEOY.

[q21]

I didn't mean this early one.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone should post at least once in the RVS stage just to give there opinions.

There was no specific reason I wanted you post other than I chose to vote you first and that I think everyone should post to either give their opinion or vote.

Bolded emphasis is mine.
Question: How serious do you believe people's opinions during RVS can be?

Mod: Fixed

[q21]

Mod

please repair my quote tags in my above post. Thanks.

[q21]

Ah ha ha what is this Elleran thing?
Why is Dann so on?
What is q21 talking about?

Question: How serious do you believe people's opinions during RVS can be?

To me the Elleran thing is due to his comment about excuses. Town should scum hunt, scum need to prepared with excuses for everthing they do. The comment seemed off, so I'm sitting happily on his wagon.

As for what I'm talking about in the quoted: Dannflor wants everyone to give their opinions in the RVS stage. Opinions in the RVS stage are inherent based on nothing of substance so I wondered why he's so interested in getting such opinions from everyone.

@ Elleran's last post: Excuse and reason are not the same thing. Excuse implies some sort of wrong doing that needs to be excused.

[q21]

As for what I'm talking about in the quoted: Dannflor wants everyone to give their opinions in the RVS stage. Opinions in the RVS stage are inherent based on nothing of substance so I wondered why he's so interested in getting such opinions from everyone.

Because it can help get the game out of RVS... I've said this before.

I saw your response the first time, and was willing to accept it - its neither a great answer (I don't think there was one available) but not a terrible one (of which there were plenty). This post wasn't addressed to you, and I'm currently reading the comment that prompted the question as null.

I disagree. Excuse might carry more of a negative connotation but it's more honest. Reason is overused replacement word for excuse.

Town also uses excuse often. I also disagree on this. If town wants to accuse someone, they still have to reinforce their accusation with strong evidence or at least some sort of a lead. So it'll be similar to: "I accuse XXX because of YYY." Saying: "I accuse XXX" and leaving it hanging will lead to counter-accusations and loss of credibility. You can call it 'excuse" or 'reason', it doesn't matter to me. They are both trying to support an argument.

Reasons are valid and hold up to scrutiny. Town should have reasons for their votes (maybe not so important this early, but certainly going into a lynch and further days beyond). Scum have to knowingly lynch town, an action that they must excuse. Provided the town doesn't play too terribly these excuses need to be fabricated and as the game goes on this fabrication can get the scum caught, hence scumhunting.

Going into the game with the mentality of having to excuse your actions is one I find scummy. It may simply be a case of ascribing different meaning to the same word, or it could be indicative of something more sinister. I am happy with where my vote sits pending particiaption or lack thereof from joels.

[q21]

Dis dude(tte), dis dude(tte): Jennifer
I have a valid reason/excuse (Haha) for voting them, but I want to try something: What is the reason/excuse I'm thinking of!? Mind-Boggling.

I don't like this at all. Asking the town to defend your vote for you is bad. Just bad. I don't particularly like the way DRK came in and almost seemed to be advocating for Rondar either. DRK did eventually give some explanation for voting Jennifer, but only after being asked a few times and playing stupid question stupid answer, which seems at odds with DRK's assertion that her (or his, I dunno) Jenn vote was serious - for all the there is a sliver (no more) of validity to DRK's eventually given reasons.

Reads like scumbuddies, or scum buddying up to a townie. Either way the impression I get out of that exchange is that DRK is scummy.

Getting board of my Elleran vote.

Unvote

VOTE: DeathRowKitty

Note - Joel's posting is still paper thin on the participation front and he still hasn't actually committed to any point of view in the form of a vote. Not long before this starts becoming a serious reason to look at him as scum.

[q21]

I don't particularly like the way DRK came in and almost seemed to be advocating for Rondar either. DRK did eventually give some explanation for voting Jennifer, but only after being asked a few times and playing stupid question stupid answer, which seems at odds with DRK's assertion that her (or his, I dunno) Jenn vote was serious - for all the there is a sliver (no more) of validity to DRK's eventually given reasons.Reads like scumbuddies, or scum buddying up to a townie. Either way the impression I get out of that exchange is that DRK is scummy.Getting board of my Elleran vote.UnvoteVOTE: DeathRowKitty

Hello, there. I would just like you to know that we will NOT be friends if you think there's something wrong with not always giving reasoning up-front. It's a shame because I was really hoping to make some friends this game. I wanted to build a snowman.

No, it appears we aren't going to be friends if you aren't willing to explain yourself, but thats okay, I don't like being friends with scum anyway. Also, how do you plan to build a snowman in the midde of summer?

This game. Just... this game.Om, Why voting Slandaar? Rondar has posted little as well, as have I and joels and Trollie.Man, I have some questions I'll try to get to this evening.

I just want you to know that you seem like a very reasonable person with very reasonable things to say and I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say. Can we be townbuddies?

I have no idea where you get reasonable person with reasonable things to say off of GM's posting? Her posting has primarily seemed scattered and disjoint and largely lacking in reasoning. This comment is buddying and nothing else, which smells a little off to me.


My feelings on the Om v Slandaar thing are somewhat mixed. In terms of pure content I thing Slandaar's coming out townier and Om's unvote does look a little like whipped scum. The thing that's confusing me is the tone of their posting. Om has been consistently addressed directly at Slandaar. Slandaar's, on the other hand, has alternated between being directed at Om and being addressed to the town in general which comes of as him being more interested in the towns view of the confrontation that the confrontation itself.
My reads here are that either Om is scum and Slandaar town OR Om is inept town and Slandaar scum. Either way I do feel that one of them is scum (leaning towards OM, but not sure), it doesn't feel like town on town (gut feel here, but meh) and it doesn't look like bussing. They should both be watched further to distinguish which is what.

[q21]

There should be a "timeously" after the "explain yourself" in the first paragraph of my last post. Sorry.

[q21]

Does that mean you no longer think Slanderer is scum?

Om, your entire post compromises your unvote. You say Slaandar is your top scum read, then why the hell did you unvote him?

Emphasis on

was

and I'm feeling lot better about him now due to whole exchange. No point in continuing the argument when I'm being told by multiple people that I'm wrong. Tunneling any further would be anti-town. I guess, that makes me look bad but I would rather put pause to the argument for now, at least till I'm trough with reading his couple of games.

So you invoted in the fear that he would be quicklynched while you were reading?

[q21]

But unvoting without a voting someone else is also a waste of your vote.

[q21]

No, it appears we aren't going to be friends if you aren't willing to explain yourself,

Well actually I did explain myself and you even summarized my explanation when you brought this up the first time, so I know you've read it. Note that this does not mean I want to be friends.

There should be a "timeously" after the "explain yourself" in the first paragraph of my last post. Sorry.

I think faster than I type and I'd moved on to my next thought before I finished typing the last and left out a word. I corrected myself when I read my post back after hitting submit, because I do not wish to strawman you, simply get you lynched for the scum you are.

Also, how do you plan to build a snowman in the midde of summer?

I now know you live in the northern hemisphere~

Can't tell if sarcasm, typo or geography fail.

[q21]

Voting Jennifer over Dannflor because I want Jenn to talk. I understand that there's a wagon starting on Jenn, but I'm going to risk it anyway. I want some answers from her.

I was pretty much okay with your entire long-ass post , Elleran (didn't agree with everything, but desperately opposed to anything either), until the last little bit quoted above. Why would you not want a bandwagon to start on someone you think is scummy? Only reason I can think of is that you're worried that later down the line you may look bad for having been on the wagon. Another indication of a mindset that hints at something scummy.

[q21]

@q21: I don't mind a wagon forming on Jenn, like I said. It applies further pressure and gives Jenn more incentive to answer. At the same time, I want to keep my vote on her for as long as I have a good reason to think that she's scum. If she's not giving me satisfactory answers, I don't mind if Jenn ends up getting lynched due to this wagon and happens to flip town and prove me wrong. The only thing I'm worried about starting a wagon on her is a similar reasoning as why I feel that Om is being targeted now -- I don't want to corner her into a lose-lose situation. Right now, I feel that she's scummy enough to vote on but not yet to lynch. That's what I meant by that line you're referring to.

I don't quite get this answer, if you think someone is scum then cornering them and forcing them to reveal yet more scumminess is exactly what a bandwagon should be looking to accomplish.

@ DRK - Timeous means in good time. You only actually explained yourself 5 posts after making that vote. Your first "answer" was facile, ie "Ask a stupid question...". Your second was half an answer in that you linked to a post you thought was scummy but didn't explain why. Three and four were contentless filler (no crime here, since its not a recurring theme in your posting). Then you gave your reasons. This is not in good time.

[q21]

@q21

: Well, I personally had a bad time being cornered before. I was a VT in that game and something about being cornered made the situation unmanageable. In that situation, I felt like because there was so many cases and speculations about why I was scum that nothing I could say was going to convince anyone. In other words, being cornered is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's like choking someone until he runs out of oxygen and begins failing to think straight.

I would appreciate a link to said game so I may judge the situation in context - however, being halfhearted about a vote is still scummy, regardless of past experiences.

[q21]

That Om vote is the first genuinely townie thing you've done, DRK. Lets see if its a turning of the corner or just an abberation.

Also, thanks for the link, Elleran, I'll give that a read later this afternoon.

[q21]

Care to elaborate, Slandaar? Cos I don't see enough in his posting to get any real read... unless that's the point?

[q21]

Right, my DRK vote seems to be gaining no traction - I'm not forgetting you Froggy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: joelsdaman

Not sure I agree with kthxbyes assesment of him. Claims he doesn't like lurkers or those who aren't "in on the action", but in 7 posts he hasn't actually managed to say anything, nor has he taken the chance to commit his vote anywhere. Fear of the backlash of voting in the wrong place is a noobscum move and I'm beginning to feel its the case with joel.

[q21]

Right, my DRK vote seems to be gaining no traction - I'm not forgetting you Froggy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: joelsdaman

Not sure I agree with kthxbyes assesment of him. Claims he doesn't like lurkers or those who aren't "in on the action", but in 7 posts he hasn't actually managed to say anything, nor has he taken the chance to commit his vote anywhere. Fear of the backlash of voting in the wrong place is a noobscum move and I'm beginning to feel its the case with joel.

So... what... your just going to keep hopping around until you can start a wagon and any old guy?

Yeah, my plan exactly. [/sarcasm]

In all seriousness, though, so long as the person is scummy then yes I'm happy to jump on their wagon at this stage. I want there to be a wagon, I want that wagon to be on someone I think it scummy. DRK wagon isn't happening so leaving my vote there accomplishes little. Joel is scummy,it seems we suspect him for much the same reasons. I've been threatening this course of action if he didn't get involved - now its time to back that up with a vote, and hopefully wagon, he deserves.

[q21]

Regarding Jennifer

: I still find it odd that Jenn tried to accuse me so hard even though others had dropped out for some time. Because I feel that if Jenn was a scum, she would have gotten off the wagon long before it had lost popularity, but instead she stayed until the very end,

I am actually getting some town read on her now.

[...]

Apparently, this Slandaar vs Om wagon is getting hot.

I'm going to keep my vote on Jenn

until I can get a better read on both Slandaar and Om.

The cognitive dissonance is hurting my brain.

For all that Ztife's vote for Om was a little off, I can't help but get a OMGUSy feel from Om's counter vote.

Don't like Kthx posting, but for much the same reasons as have already been mentioned, so I won't rehash them. Would be surprised if Kthx and joel were scum together.

[q21]

Also, currently hopped up on antibiotics and painkillers. Will try to keep up with the game, but don't expect more that short comments from me for few days.

[q21]

@ Trollie - Thanks for the vote of confidence and all, but townlists don't really achieve much beyond telling the scum where not to go if they want you vote on a mislynch.

Can't say I like Trollie's posting, but I also can't see it coming from scum. As such I don't like Elleran's vote for Trollie, seems like Elleran is more interested in Trollie's overall attitude that whether or not he's scum - doesn't actually seem to accuse Trollie of being scum until placing his vote.

[q21]

Trollie's wall covering only page 1 read like scum trying to act busy/useful while not providing anything of value. I started to reverse that read when he then posted walls on pages 3 and 4 (no clue why he left out page 2) because I thought that maybe that's just his playstyle/how he needs to process information, and we only had a handful of pages that he needed to catch up on. But, then he skipped walling the rest of the game, didn't even comment on Om/Slaandar discussion though it had been a focal point, and tries to steer the conversation to Jennifer/Elleran.

The mindset of someone who would wall Page 1 and try to discuss/find meaning in it doesn't match up with the mindset of someone who just jumps to their conclusion and ignores commenting on what else happened in game. It rings hollow and scummy to me.

I hadn't picked up on this facet of Trollie's posting (the analysis of a few pages and then sudden stop). Reverses my read on trollie to scum, this does.

[q21]

@ Trollie - You posted a few walls. Then you stopped and started posting short comments and a townlist. Its like you wanted to look like your were doing something of value, but then stopped when you realized how much effort if would take to keep that up. The amount of effort is more likely to be a problem when it's for a scum facade than for genuine town scumhunting.

[q21]

@ Trollie - You posted a few walls. Then you stopped and started posting short comments and a townlist. Its like you wanted to look like your were doing something of value, but then stopped when you realized how much effort if would take to keep that up. The amount of effort is more likely to be a problem when it's for a scum facade than for genuine town scumhunting.

so....i wanted to LOOK like I was doing something, therefore I only chose to comment on three pages in detail? I commented on what I felt deserved commenting on. {Elleran, Jennifer, Smash} guarantee at least 1 scum in there.

So nothing of interest has happened in the other 9 pages?

[q21]

MOD

I know its only been 60 hours, but can you prod joels since he's at L-2?

dannflor is also town probs

Why?

My best guess is that he thinks Danflor is town because Danflor said he thought TT was town. Buddying up to the guy he might get some support from = a little scummy.

[q21]

@Trollie
Regarding this, now that Om has replaced out, was there anything specific you were hoping to see in Om's posts that would help to betray his alignment? Also, were you fully caught up at that point? It seems like you were, but it's hard to tell because you skipped straight from commenting on the first few pages to posting only on current events and never addressed pages 5-9 or so.

I just finished a newbie game with him and he scumslipped like 6 times.

6 scumslips in the newbie game or this game. If its 6 in this game I'd love you to point them out. If its 6 in the newbie game and none here then that's actually a decent case for him being town.

Mod

Shouldn't joels have5 votes against him?

Mod:Ermm..... you didn't see that
You basically saw the half edited vote count i posted while half asleep it will be fixed

[q21]

(snip)

PEDIT:
Can we please lynch TheTrollie? I'm actually frustrated in real life with his VI style of play. Now, not only is he flat out refusing to answer my questions, but he's refusing to play as part of a player in this game. Clearly, he doesn't know how to play this game and is just here to troll players like Dannflor and myself.

Two things here. First is how he links himself and thereby his image to one of the games better, townier posters = scum move. Second is the request to lynch trollie which is followed up in his next post with a jump to kthxbye just about out of nowhere, which is, yet again, buddying up to Dannflor.

Seems that its about time for me to be voting Elleran again. Maybe the earlier hints of scumminess weren't so playstyle related afterall.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elleran



And then just as I call him good Dannflor posts this.

Yes... well I'm still generally funnier...

And no, it's not a towny thing to do, but I just don't see him as scum YET. I'm pretty sure TheTrollie isn't new, and if he was scum, he wouldn't be this bad at hiding it. This leads me to believe this is just his playstyle. And right now, I'd rather go for who I think is scum, not a PL lynch.

The second sentence is poor.

[q21]

Your saying that you don't think he's a newb and using that to attribute competence to him. If he were competent enough to hide being scum better (as you suggest) then he should also be competent of playing town better.

[q21]

Your saying that you don't think he's a newb and using that to attribute competence to him. If he were competent enough to hide being scum better (as you suggest) then he should also be competent of playing town better.

But is he really playing town badly? He's stating his reads, hes scum hunting... what is he doing to play town "badly" as you say?

Simply stating reads without reasoning isn't good town play. Also, annoying everyone (scum and town included) isn't good town play.

[q21]

Should I vote q21? It seems like the popular thing to do... if only someone could give me a reason.

[q21]

Guess I have to explain it for the not as smart as me's....

It's fairly easy. I'm playing the simple odds game. Near 100% chance odds say 1 scum was on Elleran's wagon. Very good odds (above 50%) say 2 scum were on Elleran's wagon. Let's look at the wagon.

Slandaar,

TheTrollie

, goodmorning, q21, Nachomamma8,

Dannflor

,

Kthxbye

I have a town read on Slandaar. Leaning town on Nacho's slot. That leaves q21 and goodmorning. Neither of which give me town vibes. Could easily see both being scum after goodmorning's comment here post 438.

Q's jump back onto Elleran, post 393, is forced.

Bam, scum caught, you're welcome.
____________________________________________________________

Things I agree with: There's almost definitely scum on the wagon. Slandaar looks townie.

Problems: Your town read on Nacho, who's predecessor voted and then expected the town to give reasons for her and then lurked to replacement before she ever explained her vote or even why she wanted others to do it for her - Nacho himself has done pretty much nothing but jump onto the terminal Elleran wagon because it was there. I'd like to see more from Nacho before making a more decisive call, but I certainly don't get a town read here.
Your claim that my vote back onto Elleran was forced is simply wrong. Also, rich coming form the scummiest vote on that wagon.
Which leads back to you: Your analysis relies, in large part, on people believing you're town. Your actions make this hard: Vote hopping (onto Trollie, jennifer, joels and elleran) onto only existing wagons (with the exception of your first joels random vote), never initiating anything. 342's looks like an attempt to set up consecutive lynches - its intriguing how your willing to lynch joels who you repeatedly say you think is town.

Take out your assumed towniness and your town read on Nacho and your analyses' conclusion has much less validity. I think that GM or nacho may be the play for today, their approaches to the day will shed some light on which one (if not both) it is.

For now, other things.

I don't get Jennifer's supposed scumminess. I've reread the thread, and her in iso. I just don't see it. Someone care to explain?

Om/Psyche - Comes out of argument with Slandaar poorly, that unvote was weird and looks like whipped scum. His replacement, Psyche, has done little more than sheep Kthx (of all the people to sheep, really) and discuss the nights goings on. Scumminess resides here.

Ztife - Bad vote on Om, acknowledges that its bad. Doesn't take it away. Closest he gets to calling anyone else scummy is to accuse joels of being a fence sitting lurker, which is said from his on comfy lurker seat on the fence. Pot calling the kettle black yes? Yes. Not enough to get a solid read, this worries me and leads to:

VOTE: Ztife

Pressure here needs to happen, he can't be allowed to slip through this day.

[q21]

q21, why didn't you vote goodmorning or myself?

GM, Ztife and you. All people I get scummy vibes from but want to read better. My memory of you (old though that is) is that regardless if I vote you or not you'll post enough that I can try to get a read. GM...not sure I'm ever going to be able to read her, her presence on the wagon and process of elimination will have to suffice. Ztife looked the most likely to respond to a pressure vote in a useful way, so here I voted.

Also.

joels is obvtown, DRK is cool town, ztife is town, om is town, kthx is town, goodmorning is probably town
(q21, Slandaar, Jennifer)
are the three i like the least

Vote: q21

How is joels obvtown? I can see a noobtown read, for all that I wouldn't agree with it. And seriously, how do you get a town read of Mr Bad-Om-Vote-Then-Won't-Take-A-Stance-Against-Anyone Ztife? Not to mention your certainty that Om and GM are town. Do you actually find me scummy, or is it just process of elimination?

>.<

We can't lynch kthxbye. Not really. People shouldn't be surprised that he hammered like he did. All the signs were there. He literally announced that he would do this several pages beforehand and barely anything was done about it. We live in a world where shitplay (no offense - but you've admitted already that you're terrible and an asshole) is not the same as scumplay. We live in a world where antitown actions can be explained by more than just alliance - character flaws, hard lives, race/ethnicity (jk).

kthxbye is the prototype of what sort of thing can come out of a world so jaded as this. And we're going to have to live with it. All the way to the end, probably.

***

Q21's posts are awful. It's a subtle shittiness he shelters, but a thin layer of feces coats everything he says. It's really quite disgusting.

Okay, I'm exaggerating. I just really wanted to type that. It just came to me. It's not that serious at all.

His several posts involving a shift to the Elleran wagon (many shifts; helps curtail attribution of responsibility) make me cringe. An explicitly semantic issue, unfounded cognitive dissonance, "buddying"/"jumping". The first, I'll allow, was generally fielded by a few people, but as you go along, it gets dangerously close to complete bullshit. Is this just a few bad cases or scum looking for a way through?

And his other posts are fine.

Leaving his vote on someone he was reading as town is cognitively dissonant - that accusation was perfectly well founded. And its easy to call my points about his buddying to Dannflor bad in hindsight.

***

1. goodmorning is okay. I need more.
2. Kthxbye is town. Probably.

3. Ztife may as well die today.

4. Slandaar is town.
6. Psyche Om is town.
7. Nachomamma8 Rondar nothing of note.
8. DeathRowKitty is okay. There were some awkward moments, but generally a force of goodness.
9. Kwll joelsdaman1 nothing of note.
11. Jennifer is beautiful and wonderful and coool. Stop calling her scum.

13. q21 is annoying.

No strong scumreads. >.>

I thought I would have something stronger, but meh. From the looks of it, we're in good shape, though. If we don't get scum today, we'll almost definitely hit the target tomorrow. So help me, garsh!

Until then, today. Gimme a sec...

Query. Your wording here suggests your strongest scumread (or, at least, the person you'd be happiest to see dead) is Ztife. Why still voting me then?

Agree on Jennifer, though. No one has actually told me why she's scum yet, and I don't see it.

Vote:KThnx

That hammer was shitty as hell without any reason, why aren't we lynching this scum?

Cos we're lynching your scummy ass. But at least you've taken a stance on something, even if it was the easiest stance to take.

[q21]

Also, mass claim... meh. Don't see it helping much, but will go along with it if that's where we go. At the moment I think I'd be going first and I'm okay with that.

[q21]

V/LA until the weekend.

Started a 72 hours trial at work yesterday. I thought I would still have time to play properly, but I'm having to be much more hands on than I'd have liked or expected. Not going to be able to catch up or participate until the weekend. Trial technically ends at 6:00 am Saturday, but then I'll need to sleep.

Mod: Noted and on the VC top of page

[q21]

Right... skimmed my way to an up to date (ish) state of mind.

Slandaar is town - Misguided with regard to the massclaim thing, but town none the less. His position with regard to Massclaim makes more sense given his own claim.
Nacho and DRK - Slandaar's main adversaries on the masslcaim issue are town. Both taking a townie stance, neither doing so in an scummy or opportunistic manner.
Kthxbye is town - Probably not a popular thing for me to say. But there, I said it.

Contrast this with the living members of yesterady's wagon: Slandaar, goodmorning, q21, Nachomamma8, Kthxbye

Only one I don't have a townread on (and haven't read the role PM of) is GM.

VOTE: goodmorning

Other people should too.

Ztife still has the fence sitting day 1 point against his name, but he is getting better in that regard.

Sitting on the plane ready to take off so quick last thoughts for now:

I agree with Kthx that it's likely at least one scum was on the Elleran wagon. But I also think it's likely at least one scum was off. But Kthx gets town points from me for doing PoE and working wih it (even though i dont agree with his reads) Also I don't think q21 is scum.
Slaandar is unreadable to me so cuts either way.

VOTE: ztife

Nacho is also suspect for giving Ztife a town read (higher than the probtown read he have GM). If like to hear his justification for that because can't think of any.

Will try to check in before back from vacation but ability to do deep dive will be limited to negligible until back.

Reason for your vote? Seems like your posts gives alot of logical observations but you seems to always vote otherwise.

This is one of the first interesting points raised against Jenn that I've noticed. Can you provide more examples of her doing this or is this a spurious statement made purely to defend yourself?

[q21]

This is one of the first interesting points raised against Jenn that I've noticed. Can you provide more examples of her doing this or is this a spurious statement made purely to defend yourself?

Don't worry, I took a minute out of my life to check for you. No, she hasn't done that in other votes....and I don't even think she did it with that vote.

Could have done that myself. The point was to see what Ztife was going to say about it.

[q21]

@q21
I will reiterate what I said before:
Cases based solely on VCA are bullshit.

So, explain why Slandaar's claiming Doc makes his massclaim stance make sense to you.
Explain why you think kthx is Town.
Explain why Nacho is Town without using his purely theory points.

VCA is bullshit as a soul reason for a lynch. Coupled with some PoE and its a good reason to start a wagon, especially on someone I have trouble reading either way otherwise.

Claiming a PR makes his stance make more sense because having a piece of the puzzle makes one want to have more pieces and makes you feelbetter equipped to analyze the rest. Also, his fakeclaim plan for the massclaim looks like it comes from a townie place.
Because I'm just that awesome.
Nacho is town because his theory points are protown and the way he made them don't look like they come from scum. Already said this.

@Frog - Could have seen a Nacho vote coming out of that Jenn post. Wanted to see him try to bring up more examples anything like that, ie. give him the chance to dig his own grave.

[q21]

Slandaar's main adversaries on the masslcaim issue are town. Both taking a townie stance, neither doing so in an scummy or opportunistic manner.

What would a "scummy or opportunistic manner" be?

Went back and tried to put my finger on this better. I think the main point is that you didn't try to make him look scummy for anything else, didn't dig back into his previously very protown play. The confrontation was about massclaim and didn't get pushed much passed that. DRK did flaunt with it a little, but only a little and I have a strong town read on him anyway.

[q21]

The lack of a GM hammer in this thread saddens me.

Psyche is hilarious. Also genius.

That is all.

[q21]

@kwll - You should really read the thread for yourself, but for now you can pretend to be town and hammer GM.

I started the wagon based on PoE (mostly on recent activity in thread) and VCA of the Elleran lynch. Psyche later put together a full blown case, his summation of which is quoted below for your benefit.

====[] Please.

Let me do the summarization thing again, and then add a few more ideas. Should I do a bulleted list? I will do a bulleted list. Bitches love bulletted lists. HOW THE HECK DO I SPELL BULLETTED?

- Opportunism (as evinced by your scantily thought out reasons for wagoning Slandaar, specifically the way they concern play quality rather than play scumminess and explicitly refuse to consider presented justifications for play which is just plain irrational)

- Crappy Response to Censure (Let's be specific!)
General Theme: "You're looking for a way out but there isn't one." ^(tm)
1) avoiding the case with vague whatevertheheck674was
2) recharacterizing it to make it less threatening (post 679), and
3) AtE the hell out of everyone. BONUS: With lies! (PS: I'm fine with AtE, but this is more about contributing to the general theme above. Fight
the theme, not the AtE accusation!)
4) Completely failing to properly explain what actually sensical thoughts why you think/thought voting for Slandaar was reasonable from a townie perspective

- BONUS: With lies!

[q21]

Nacho's case is laughable.

How is joels obvtown? I can see a noobtown read, for all that I wouldn't agree with it. And seriously, how do you get a town read of Mr Bad-Om-Vote-Then-Won't-Take-A-Stance-Against-Anyone Ztife? Not to mention your certainty that Om and GM are town. Do you actually find me scummy, or is it just process of elimination?

^this shit is terrible

So questioning your reads makes me scummy? Note: The posts you've quoted as reasons for GM and Ztife's towniness are a) not very convincing and b) came after I questioned your reads - so you still haven't explained why you thought they were town then.

I started the wagon based on PoE (mostly on recent activity in thread) and VCA of the Elleran lynch. Psyche later put together a full blown case, his summation of which is quoted below for your benefit.

====[] Please.

especially when coupled with this
q's contempt of PoE doesn't make sense when that's what the wagon he cares about so much is about
unless he's scum

PoE alone (what you seemed to be accusing me with at the time) is bad. VCA alone is bad. Combination of the 2 is better to the point of being enough to start a wagon. Psyche's case and GM's subsequent response to that case and her wagon add to it to make it good reason for a lynch.

Two things here. First is how he links himself and thereby his image to one of the games better, townier posters = scum move. Second is the request to lynch trollie which is followed up in his next post with a jump to kthxbye just about out of nowhere, which is, yet again, buddying up to Dannflor.

Seems that its about time for me to be voting Elleran again. Maybe the earlier hints of scumminess weren't so playstyle related afterall.

this is a pretty scummy post
he calls elleran town and tries to white knight him
but later, when he's needed to push the lynch through, he just goes for it like he never had a reason to call eleran town in the first place

Seriously, this is bullshit. I challenge you to find a day 1 post where I call Elleran town. Then find one where I white knight him. Hell, try and find me doing both in the same post. Go ahead, do it. You couldn't, could you? Like I said, bullshit. You're either mistaken or just outright lying. And the "but later" is misleading given that this is the actual post in which I revote Elleran - which you conveniently edited out.

q21 who do you actually find summy, and town? name at least 2 in each category please.

I'll switch to q21 anyday too =D

Scum
Goodmorning
Ztife

Probscum
Nachomamma (recently moved here from town due to lies in case against me)

Null
kwll
Jennifer

Probtown
Psyche
DRK

Town
Slandaar
Kthxbye
q21

[q21]

Okay, so the bullshit case has dragged me to L-1. Wow, you guys suck at this game, except the scum, they're really good.

I'm the cop. Night 1 I investigated Kthxbye due mostly to his hammer and got a Town result.

We should lynch GM.

[q21]

Okay, so the bullshit case has dragged me to L-1. Wow, you guys suck at this game, except the scum, they're really good.

I'm the cop. Night 1 I investigated Kthxbye due mostly to his hammer and got a Town result.

We should lynch GM.

Lies.

Im tracker, and I doubt there's a cop. Visited jennifer last night and got a NIL result.

LYNCH THIS SCUM. VIG DON"T CLAIM.

I don't see scum counter claiming under the current circumstances and Ztife's often noncommittal play is in line with a role that can find shit out at night. My feeling is that there will be no vig claim because the second night kill came from an SK. The massclaim should be completed in order to determine this.

A few things have moved around thanks to the activity since my last post. Here be my current reads.

Scum
Goodmorning
Malakittens
Nachomamma

Null
kwll
Jennifer

Probtown
DRK
Ztife

Town
Slandaar
Kthxbye
q21

[q21]

Neighbours claim got me thinking: If kwll doens't claim vig then one of GM and Jennifer is an SK. Just the way I read that situation.

[q21]

Vig-neighbour seems highly unlikely. SK-neighbour seems much likelier.

I imagine if I investigate an SK I will get: Not Town. But I dunno, looks like I'm headed for the rope anyway, so...