The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[Cerulean]

Oh I feel like I should make something clear, especially since it's being raised as a valid point. The neighborhood is not named Orlando's. Nor could it actually be named Orlando's as far as I'm concerned. Naming the neighborhood "Orlando's" would basically be mod-confirming that Kuribo is who he claimed to be, which he wouldn't do.

So, if they do have the ability to "wire-tap" the neighborhood, it's not because they needed to know it was named "Orlando's".

[Cerulean]

In the last post from Empire addressing his Equinox read (#2467), we got the impression he was actually pretty confident on his town read on her. But your later posts seem to indicate you've both lost faith in it. Can you shed some light me on what is it that is making you guys waver back and forth on this meta-read? Did Empire note anything in particular that changed his mind?

Erm, not sure where you're getting the impression that I was confident in that post, hence why I said it was based off really old meta that I had to go over again.

In related news, I'm going over the games you linked now.

[Cerulean]

equinox

you gonna get around to claiming this century?

My guess is if you had anything worth claiming you'd have done it already and this is just a stalling tactic.

[Cerulean]

Equinox - Flavor please, especially why you're 1-shot kill proof. Thnx.

[Cerulean]

*wimper*

[Cerulean]

*whimper* even (I can't spell)

[Cerulean]

*whimper* even (I can't spell)

Please don't tell me you're having cold feet.

I mean, if you have cold feet because I'm being super town here or something, then that'd be rad, but if it's because of the claim then

don't forget that this is a Faraday game

and also don't forget that there's a wandering gun that isn't police-aligned.

...why am I even saying all this.

yeah, empire just got a history lesson in the last year of faraday's games.

I'm just entering the stage of the game when I want to cry in a corner is all.

[Cerulean]

But speaking of Equinox, since you mention a non-police-aligned wandering gun, would you expect there to be a member of the scum team that's bp?

[Cerulean]

Equinox, what changed between this post and your current stance in regards to my lynch?

I had a town read of you after reading the end of Day 2. When I saw DeasVail and kuribo post cases, I started having doubts, but I kept going back to Vifam's behavior and yours, and then when Cerulean added their case to the mix, that was 3 people who I trust in general and I decided to sheep them. A wild Nostredeus appears. After that, I started having doubts again and decided I'd better read you properly except that's been going on now for 3 days, even if the stance seems like a new one.

Anyone who went vifam's spontaneous behavior means town should check out his spontaneous scum behavior in ny161. It's vifam's posting style, so his posts here are really quite null as far as alignment telling.

[Cerulean]

In the last post from Empire addressing his Equinox read (#2467), we got the impression he was actually pretty confident on his town read on her

Erm, not sure where you're getting the impression that I was confident in that post, hence why I said it was based off really old meta that I had to go over again.

"I honestly don't think Equinox is scum" sounded pretty confident to me, even with the caveat about needing to check old meta again.

(Have you linked to this old meta yet?)
s

I think it's quite apparent that we don't feel really confident in our reads on anyone in our Poe list. Tml was a strong town read for empire but that's weakened over time. He thought she looked rather town upon replacing in, and the meta he had zar already read. They played in micro 53 and she linked her scum games there, but zar linked more relevant games yesterday, which empire looked through last night. He thinks zar has a point as some of her replace in posts match here somewhat well, and if she does flip cop thinks Nostredeus fits for a partner due to her behavior here being similar to there, possibly bt also as she has a tendency to bus. But he didn't have a chance to read through her town games to see how that matched up and is without Internet today.

(empire tends to lose his confidence even more than I do after being wrong, and even though I had a weak town read on arthur, going into that last day empire was pretty convinced that there was no way town would say some of the things arhtur was saying and was believing he was scum as strongly as you guys did. He also thought that tgah was town when I was questioning it. So even though him saying "I honestly think she's town" might sound like he's confident, he's really not. But I think he has a hard time giving up his town reads, so would likely be inclined to think she was town if she sounded like town. I don't know if that makes any sense and now I'm just rambling.)

After she claimed most of our chat centered around if that claim was likely to come from town, so he wasnt ale to look through the town games. And if she flips Avon, then kise needs to be looked at more closely as we've been writing him off based on his claim. Her flavor explanation for her role was way better than kises who was like "I'm that white dude you guys were talking about...the lawyer" and who has done very little in the game since. At the very least I think tomorrow should be mass claim day because something doesnt feel right. Empire and I talked about suggesting last night, but we don't have time to do that so decided it was silly. If she flips cop bulletproof, which I would guess would be Kima based on flavor and she's most definitely here since bubbles is, then probably never mind, but I would expect there to be a scum bp or doc here somewhere.

And it dawned on me that she probably got off of Nostredeus because she thought he was soft claiming vig when he said he'd claim at l-2 and we'd all have a good laugh and that he'd vigged his suspect Sotty, but then you pointed out that she'd mentioned already that theyd been arrested and now I'm whimpering again. (as an aside, if you think it's impossible to make those mistakes in assumptions, you haven't been paying enough attention to the idiotic things I say and do in games from time to time.)

[Cerulean]

I, for one, haven't. I figured I'd just wing it. >_>

[Cerulean]

*Whistles*

GG.

?

[Cerulean]

*Whistles*

GG.

?

... hopefully that wasn't Nost soft-claiming lyncher .

That was my first paranoid notes to the neighborhood.

[Cerulean]

Well not him being a lyncher but that all the cops needed to do was lynch or kill Avon.

[Cerulean]

*Whistles*

GG.

?

?

GG = Good Game? And you're whistling about it.

[Cerulean]

...ok something is seriously wrong. Really need to re-assess everything.

I think we should massclaim today. Thoughts?

(If so, we'd like to go first.)

[Cerulean]

someone just buller about to play dota.

translate?

[Cerulean]

All the claimed/flipped PRs:

Kuribo - Wendell "Orlando" Blocker, 3-Shot Neighborizer
Kise - Maurice Levy, Expensive Doctor
---
Zdenek - Sterling, Friendly "Limping" Neighbor
ArcAngel9 - Ronnie Mo, Jack of All Trades
Equinox - Avon Barksdale, 1-Shot Kill Proof

[Cerulean]

Feel pretty confident mass claim needs to happen. There are things to discuss.

[Cerulean]

Eh, whatever, I'm fine with camn claiming first and popcorning.

[Cerulean]

Targets later is fine.

But, role with name claims up front is what I'd prefer.

Can one of you just start claiming and stop stalling?

Camn: kuribo's keeping his mouth shut during the claiming because he says that he's derailed mass claims before by getting too involved, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out his question. If you have soft claimed vig, why are you still alive? Meaning, if the thread is believing that's what you are doing, why hasn't the mafia team taken you out? It's not implying you're a vig and a busdriver or anything of the sort. Just simply why are you alive?

Okay, can we get on with it then?

[Cerulean]

To finish it off...

We're Roland "Wee-Bey" Brice, X-Shot Vigilante.

[Cerulean]

Man, when empire claimed he was supposed to point out my awesome

feeble

crumb. There were a couple Weebay crumbs, but I thought for sure this one was obvious:

Oh hey Arthur - Two things. Did you really pick the strung out drug addict for your avatar. Bubbles is cool and all, but man you couldn't pick someone really cool?

I aint the type of person to deny a man his fun, and you look like you be having fun and all, but

if I don't see real content

product

delivered between your shitposting and rp, Imma pop a cap in your ass. You feel me?

[Cerulean]

If it was given to deasvail by the mod as a fake claim it was intended to be a safe claim. I don't like that pless is insinuating that deas made up his role himself and is congratulating himself for being so clever. I also dislike trying to claim a mod dislikes a particular role so it's impossible for him to have this role. Mina's crushing independent thought game had an encyptor, and since Mina is the backup mod and works with faraday on setups I don't think it's completely out of the question that this role could exist.

If you want to find deasvail suspicious on play, then make that case but I'm. It willing to lynch someone because his role might sound like a scum role. People did that to staeg in adwd because he was a Frey cop and that just couldn't be town, but it was.

Also, I'd like to ask you all. If he is scum, why bother admitting to daytalk enabler? Why not just claim one shot bodyguard, which wouldn't be questioned?

[Cerulean]

I really don't care about if the role sounds like it conflicts. If deasvail is scum and that is not his role, he was given that as a fake claim which was meant to be a safe claim. I am not interested in lynching someone based on "Faraday said he doesn't like this, surely he wouldn't do this". Because if that's the case and you push through this lynch and he comes back town, I will virtually pummel you both for not listening to a lick of anything we've said this game.

If you're going to make a case on deavail and want to vote him, make it on his play.

What I'm more interested in, for those of you more knowlegeable about balance and not so sure you're right about everything, does it makes sense for there to be a bodyguard, expensive doctor, bulletproof, joat, friendly neighbor, neighborizer, and a vig in town? We've had a scum rolecop and an even night tracker. What makes sense balance-wise?

[Cerulean]

I don't like that pless is insinuating that deas made up his role himself

Oh dear, I wouldn't want to

insinuate

anything . Here, let me try again: I believe Deas made the role up himself. Better?

I really don't understand your problem with this idea. I don't understand at all why you keep saying:

If deasvail is scum and that is not his role, he was given that as a fake claim which was meant to be a safe claim.

Since when does Faraday give out entire

roles

as safe fake-claims? Fake

names

, yes, but I don't think I've ever seen him give out actual roles before without prompting.

He's given people help with flavour when they make up their own fake-claims, sure, but in the past he hasn't just said to people "here is a cool fake claim you can make!" when giving out their scum roles. If you look at the ASOS QT I linked to earlier, all the safe fake-names he gives the scum are written out as a VT fake-claims. And there are repeated examples in that game and the other Eddard Stark games of scum making up their own fake-claims.

Why are you so sure that any fake-claim somebody makes must have been given to them by a mod as a safe claim?

~ Pless

I've never drawn scum in a Faraday game before. So then why would he have to come up with a fake claim and why would he come up with a claim that's a traditional scum role? Our one potential paranoid theory was that he could be a wire-tap enabler and a traitor or something and changed it so that he wouldn't get killed, but that seems a little far fetched when he could shut up about it. I'm not so sure about this one though, and we still have our town read on DV I think. Empire's more confident in that read than I am; I'm pretty terrible at reading him but I've seen more of his town play here than his scum game. I'll have to read through Castle Zar and lala land again.

[Cerulean]

So he does sometimes give out full roles then?

[Cerulean]

The fake-names given out to the scum in ADWD fit the same pattern. They're all written as vanilla town claims. Obviously the scum didn't only claim VT in that game though.

I will virtually pummel you both for not listening to a lick of anything we've said this game.

I honestly don't know why you're accusing us of not listening to "anything you've said". What precisely are you thinking of? I actually went out of my way on day 3 to ask you and the rest of the neighborhood why TML was a bad lynch and BT was a better choice. Your answer was "Meh he's not a better lynch probably ... we're fine with an equinox lynch I guess". And you've already said that Empire agreed with our SAD case.

In fact, while you personally had a town-read on SAD, you weren't exactly going out of your way to talk us out of suspecting him when you gave Empire's read's in #1992 as "Town - [kuribo] - [kise] - Arthur - BT - Scum". Or when you waffled in #1618 and gave a lot of reasons why Arthur could be scum: "quite frankly it weirded me out a little when arhtur made those effort walls because it reminded me of his sudden content after I threw my mini tantrum at him in the westeros game for not doing anything other than shitposting [...] Empire says that he's deferring to me for Arthur but that he thinks that everything arhtur has done so far could be easily faked. And I agree mostly. [...] His attitude sucks. [...] For instance the "whoever is town reading me had better have a good reason" don't read town to me at all. Is weird posturing for Arthur. His tone seems off". I dd listen to that, and it's part of why I was confident that SAD was scum -- you're the only person other than Zar and myself I'd trust to know SAD's meta, and you seemed to largely agree with me that he sounded not-town:?.

So ... when exactly did we fail to listen to you? I don't understand why you're saying this at all .

~ Pless

I know you did; I thought you were asking because you were suspicious of us and we were trying to save a partner or something, and I should have fought harder for equinox. All game long that slot was a strong town read of ours based on meta and that never changed. I even read his entire meta on this site to try to determine it and the impression that he was over aggressive in a weird way as scum didn't change, but you didn't agree with that bit when you had talked with empire about it. I did learn that he tends to use the work fuck a lot more when he's scum than when town. And if I start rambling sorry, my sleeping pill is kicking in and the screen is sworling and has pretty colors. But, we still felt reasonably confident that equinox would flip town though zar's meta about her replacingin in as scum did have some merit in the way she went about things were rather similar. We were still holding onto our town read of that slot though equinox is tricky and she was making me paranoid. I couldn't exactly say that the bt lynch was the better one because I didn't feel 100% about that lynch either. I was struggling with still seeing him as town as his self-meta and some other posts read townish to me, so I wasn't going to push for a lynch to someone I wasn't feel really great about and have them flip town. And, I was in a sense right. Well, the best lynch that day was everyone to get on Nostredeus, but that wasn't happenings. But, I was right and wrong about who was the better lynch. If we lynched bt, we'd lost a townie, but with losing equinox we also lost a distractive nontown member. Also, I wasn't too worried about it because I knew that if the bt lynch didn't happen, I could take care of it at night. And it turned out to be on town, and we allotted for that and decided even so it was best for town.

And you did ask about arthur and i know my read wasn't confident, but he was town.

It's not your fault, I'm just a little frustrated with this game right now. And I just don't want to see someone get lynched because their role is unlikely to be lynched and come back town and exactly what they said. So, I want things looked at in their entirety because we did go with the absta connections and it didn't lead us anywhere good, so something is off.

okay i'm trailing off now...get back to this tomorrow.

[Cerulean]

Hey Kise - What is your ability name by the way?

[Cerulean]

Thanks kise.

Kuribo - what is the name of your ability? (I obviously don't doubt your ability, but I'm curious.)

Also, is there a particular reason that instead of scumhunting youve been throwing out paranoid theories since the start of day? I get being paranoid, but it almost feels like your throwing out stuff to cause a distraction. (and any time you get paranoid about an opposing scum team claiming VIG, check out the abridged version of the "cerulean are not morons manifesto" in the neighborhood.)

[Cerulean]

^^^ Want. To. Lynch. This. So. Bad. Mostly because of sheer frustration with his play, but I'm not convinced he's scum, but damn do I want to.

[Cerulean]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier but my ability is " Come Into My Club."

And if it seems like I'm not scumhunting, its because BTs townflip and Nos' self aligned flip have me somewhat demoralized. I seriously believed them to be buddies.

If I was wrong about that, than I am likely wrong about some other perception of the game state. And I haven't found the energy to try and read back so I can piece the puzzle.

In short, I feel I'm missing something obvious, but.not entirely sure what that is.

Yeah, we're pretty much at the same stage.

[Cerulean]

PROD DODGE.

Probably won't be able to get back to this until Monday or Tuesday. I'm still making my way through the game. Still feel like I'm missing something.

[Cerulean]

Derp on my part for not researching
Sorry for triple post

Ben always makes bold plays, but I particularly liked his stance D4. Only thing I would find sus' about him are the absta interactions. Otherwise, he's not someone I'm urging to hang.

What day 4 stance? Today's day 4.

That said we thought what Camn brought up was suspicious and considered Benmage as a target last night, but we couldn't justify it. Other than the absta interactions, there were several posts that read town to us and Empire has been over his iso probably about 10 times trying to nail down his read because he's paranoid his town read is wrong, but he keeps coming back town. He's also been over his scum games several times and keeps coming to town but with paranoid reservations.

[Cerulean]

I just realized that deadline is five days away, not 10. I don't know why I was thinking there were more days.

Yes I know useless post is useless.

[Cerulean]

Posting later tonight, Tammy and I have been busy this week.

[Cerulean]

Okay so, the only thing we feel really (semi) confident about is: Pless, Camn and DV are town.

Kise/Shaft is only on maybe town list because of his claim. His play is absolute shit, and if it weren't for the probably crumb coupled with his claim I'd lynch it in a second.

Jason might be town because of tgah's interactions. But, again, his play is absolute shit. It's even worse than Kise's, and that's setting the bar low low low.

who's left?

cdb. benmage, kuribo?

i'm kinda depending on sotty here for kuribo. and the way he's used the neighborhood has been townish. Dan's posts in the neighborhood were townie, don't know why he didn't post that way in the actual thread, but whatever. i'd also like to believe that kuribo is town from the conversations in the neighborhood, but i'm lacking confidence at this stage.

Okay, I know this isn't something substantial, but it's a product of our discussion tonight

and I'm drunk so succinct huzzah!!!

but this is where we're at. I'll try to be better tomorrow.

[Cerulean]

So I guess who we're fine lynching is between cdb, benmage (paranoia), and I'll throw in a dash of kise because he's been overlooked.

[Cerulean]

Also, I'm a little irked that setup spec was all the rage until we actually had claims, and then all you people who wanted to engage in it, when I asked what was most likely, were like meh never mind.

Because can someone tell me how likely it is that town has a 1 shot BG, and 1 shot kill-proof, an expensive doctor, a joat, a 3 shot vig, a 3 shot neighborizer, and a friendly neighbor?

I don't even pretend to understand balance, sooo........

[Cerulean]

I'm more comfortable posting on this account.

Why? You're still posting as Kise at this site.

Is the shaft alt supposed to help you play better? Cuz I'm not seeing it.

[Cerulean]

Okay this will be brief. I have a ton of papers to grade today and tomorrow so I'll be on and off. Hopefully empire will pick up what I'm unable.

Cdb was an early scum read of mine that changed in response to his play day two, but there are some things that ran suspicious to me as I re-read the thread this week. (I'm not going to include post numbers, sorry that takes up too much time). Cdb makes an early vote on absta based on his petapan vote, and then when Ben asks him about it, he overexplains why he's voting absta. And I don't mean too wordy because hello! but the reason for voting absta is way overexplained and unnecessary. Could easily going for the whole show early suspicion and votes for a partner. He quickly finds a reason to move off of him though and votes safetydance for being too safe. He tells absta later to "skip walls, try harder, do better" and absta doesn't respond to this at all. I'm not sure how telling this is though because absta didn't respond to me when I called him out for sounding fake. In fact absta pretty much ignores cdb altogether. There is not one mention of him in his iso at all. His stance on Jason is pretty weird given that he's basically relying on Sotty and not his own read. This post is weird too and it almost seems like it's protecting Jason in way and slightly advocating a sotty lynch. Sotty would come back town, which would make people think that Jason just has to be town. But the next day as soon as Sotty starts suspecting Jason, he's suddenly a scum read for cdb.

The thing that strikes me as somewhat suspicious is the fact that tml had gone after cdb pretty hard on day two. Read any of tml's early day two posts and he's convinced he's found scum. He then pushes for Kise having a scum read on cdb and kise. It seems that in the night cdb wrote a case on tml and pushed it all of yesterday. Nothing made him waver a second in going after tml. He kept pushing that "tml asked for the name of the neighborhood" thing like it was slam dunk evidence, and didn't even flinch when I pointed out that the neighborhood was not, in fact, named Orlando's nor could it even be. If that was such a strong crux of his case, why didn't it make him flinch? I don't know I might be getting hung up on this though.

tgah looked like they could have been protecting cdb a bit. DV early voted for cdb for what it looks like moving his vote onto absta (which is something that is making me wonder about dv actually), and tgah asked dv why cdb was scum. I'm not even sure what to make of Post 691 as I don't know why cdb was even brought up, but it's interesting to point out that it's in relation to absta.

Oh and something just occurred to me. Maybe it's paranoia setting in upon looking at that last post trying to figure out why he was mentioning cdb at that point, but that's a post dedicated to his scum read on Jason. We've been discounting Jason basically because of the tgah interactions, and I'll have to look at day one again with this in mind, but the first vote on Jason came after Sotty had declared having a strong gut scum read on them but a town read on Jason. The later push on Jason came after there was somewhat of a push against tgah. If they had any thought that they might be going down, and by that point it became obvious that Jason wasn't going to happen, they might have pushed harder on Jason to keep him safe.

But, self-meta gets to me. So, I think there are some really scummy things about cdb and the interactions with absta do look bad as well as tgah, but then again so did tml's and he was town. I'm not going to cry if he's lynched, but I don't feel confident he'll come back scum.

Okay, I'll post more in a bit after I grade some papers and feel like I'm accomplishing something.

[Cerulean]

PLUS who the fuck is going to counter claim EXPENSIVE doc

MEans I'm not regular doc and means I withheld info for the sake of greater good.

There can't be a steady doc along with my role, and it also hints that I'm balanced towards there being an SK > a vig.

Expand on this please. Thanks.

[Cerulean]

I feel like Im missing something really super obvious.

[Cerulean]

PLUS who the fuck is going to counter claim EXPENSIVE doc

MEans I'm not regular doc and means I withheld info for the sake of greater good.

There can't be a steady doc along with my role, and it also hints that I'm balanced towards there being an SK > a vig.

Expand on this please. Thanks.

A limited doctor would help increase the SK's chances of winning. That was my first thought but it wasn't long after I claimed that I decided against this type of thinking, hence why I've never bothered you.

Okay. I'm just a bit paranoid of you, and was hoping you got your flavor wrong, so I could go ha! gotcha!

[Cerulean]

Cerulean - the main issue I'd like to take with your big post there is the same issue that I've been taking all game with people discussing my early-game Jason read. My scumread on him did

not

suddenly appear on Day 2 - it was already something that I was nursing...

I'd be very strongly considering a vote on Jason but Sotty and Zach have never given me reason to doubt their reads on him.

But the fact that it was Day 1 and Sottyrulez had a declared townread made pursuing that particular ping of the scumdar at that time look like a less wise idea.

I know you had said this before, but that's the impression I got from reading the thread.

[Cerulean]

As far as Ben goes, we've actually had a really hard time with this. Ben's interactions with absta don't look great. Several of his comments are rather throwaway and could be interpreted as interacting for the sake of interacting. He doesn't give a read on absta mostly because he has a hard time judging inexperience. I know that Ben has said this in several games before so this isn't out of the ordinary. Although I don't consider absta inexperienced? He doesn't play larges I guess, but he's been onsite for over a year and has over 2000 posts, so I'm not sure about that. It still seems kinda sloppy? And for someone who says their scum game is flawless, I'd expect something better for a read on a partner...not something that just looks so suspicious.

The way tgah interacted with ben isn't telling either way. They voted him first for justice, but pretended to be of two minds about him. They came to his defense when Shadoweh was attacking him, but then again several of us did as the line of attack was bad. But, shadoweh did die night one for some reason. It can't just be because of the absta thing because more than one person went after absta. She did attack ben? Don't know how much I think this is likely though.

Empire thought that his response to zdenek when he was attacking him looked suspicious, but I haven't been able to get anything concrete on benmage from empire. He's read him a bunch of times and thinks the interactions look bad but by meta he looks the same as town. (See what overreliance of meta gets you? >_>) There are little things that look suspicious but there are some things that look townish. His hammer on tml yesterday would be weird coming from scum? (Not the hammer but the way he went about it.)

I really don't know though.

I've had Camn as a town read for most of the game even though her reasons for scum reading people day one were pretty bad and sometimes still are. There are just weird scum tells she throws out. I remember being absolutely convinced she was scum in Ladies Night though and she was town. Empire and I read through her last scum game, Buffy season one, and she does turbo bus. So, their interaction doesn't necessarily clear her? In reading I thought the "go fuck yourself" to Pless read faker, but I've read through them a bunch of times and keep coming back town on Pless, so if they're cops they're doing a really good job. But, Camn isn't as cocky sounding as scum as she is as town, which has us reading her as town. But I just re-read through buffy again, and don't see what I remember seeing before, but I was a little drunk that night so yeah.

DV is a strong town read for us based on his behavior and meta. I'm crap at reading DV; I think the only time I've read him properly was NY146 and it was mainly because I'd never ever imagine scum saying some of the things he said. And there are things that make me think he's town here. Little things like him saying stuff like it doesn't make sense for him to be scum. I know that doesn't sound like much but it's how I read him. Also, his claim and the way he claimed makes me lean town, though I'm paranoid about this too. But, from his post where he crumbs that knows scum have day talk, he always planned to claim it. And I'm still at a loss for why scum would claim a scum role, which is what an enabler does. I mean I know there are the arguments that Faraday wouldn't use it or doesn't like it, but it still fits the flavor. Wire-tap enabler would also fit along with 1 shot BG for a scum/traitor role, but I just don't know how much I believe this and empire has him as a strong town read regardless.

Still paranoid of kuribo/kise but that might just be paranoia. Still think Jason's play is atrocious and am afraid we're letting scum go based on a theory about tgah which might not even turn out to be true.

Oh tgah didn't mention camn once.

Now that I think about it camn and benmage might work well together? I don't know.

I'm going to be gone most of tomorrow. I'll try to do more tomorrow morning, and when I get home tomorrow night. I feel like reading the thread again just made me waffle harder.

[Cerulean]

As far as Ben goes, we've actually had a really hard time with this. Ben's interactions with absta don't look great. Several of his comments are rather throwaway and could be interpreted as interacting for the sake of interacting. He doesn't give a read on absta mostly because he has a hard time judging inexperience. I know that Ben has said this in several games before so this isn't out of the ordinary. Although I don't consider absta inexperienced? He doesn't play larges I guess, but he's been onsite for over a year and has over 2000 posts, so I'm not sure about that. It still seems kinda sloppy? And for someone who says their scum game is flawless, I'd expect something better for a read on a partner...not something that just looks so suspicious.

The way tgah interacted with ben isn't telling either way. They voted him first for justice, but pretended to be of two minds about him. They came to his defense when Shadoweh was attacking him, but then again several of us did as the line of attack was bad. But, shadoweh did die night one for some reason. It can't just be because of the absta thing because more than one person went after absta. She did attack ben? Don't know how much I think this is likely though.

Empire thought that his response to zdenek when he was attacking him looked suspicious, but I haven't been able to get anything concrete on benmage from empire. He's read him a bunch of times and thinks the interactions look bad but by meta he looks the same as town. (See what overreliance of meta gets you? >_>) There are little things that look suspicious but there are some things that look townish. His hammer on tml yesterday would be weird coming from scum? (Not the hammer but the way he went about it.)

I really don't know though.

I've had Camn as a town read for most of the game even though her reasons for scum reading people day one were pretty bad and sometimes still are. There are just weird scum tells she throws out. I remember being absolutely convinced she was scum in Ladies Night though and she was town. Empire and I read through her last scum game, Buffy season one, and she does turbo bus. So, their interaction doesn't necessarily clear her? In reading I thought the "go fuck yourself" to Pless read faker, but I've read through them a bunch of times and keep coming back town on Pless, so if they're cops they're doing a really good job. But, Camn isn't as cocky sounding as scum as she is as town, which has us reading her as town. But I just re-read through buffy again, and don't see what I remember seeing before, but I was a little drunk that night so yeah.

DV is a strong town read for us based on his behavior and meta. I'm crap at reading DV; I think the only time I've read him properly was NY146 and it was mainly because I'd never ever imagine scum saying some of the things he said. And there are things that make me think he's town here. Little things like him saying stuff like it doesn't make sense for him to be scum. I know that doesn't sound like much but it's how I read him. Also, his claim and the way he claimed makes me lean town, though I'm paranoid about this too. But, from his post where he crumbs that knows scum have day talk, he always planned to claim it. And I'm still at a loss for why scum would claim a scum role, which is what an enabler does. I mean I know there are the arguments that Faraday wouldn't use it or doesn't like it, but it still fits the flavor. Wire-tap enabler would also fit along with 1 shot BG for a scum/traitor role, but I just don't know how much I believe this and empire has him as a strong town read regardless.

Still paranoid of kuribo/kise but that might just be paranoia. Still think Jason's play is atrocious and am afraid we're letting scum go based on a theory about tgah which might not even turn out to be true.

Oh tgah didn't mention camn once.

Now that I think about it camn and benmage might work well together? I don't know.

I'm going to be gone most of tomorrow. I'll try to do more tomorrow morning, and when I get home tomorrow night. I feel like reading the thread again just made me waffle harder.

[Cerulean]

Slept in this morning and am getting ready to leave for the afternoon, but I will be back at least five hours before deadline and will be here until deadline so will be able to vote. Empire might be around too, but I expect he'll have a bit of a hangover so might not.

[Cerulean]

Oh but here is how I see it fitting the flavor. His ability is rt, which Wallace does do for that murder of that one guy. He gives the cops the information about who he called and the part he played in that guy ending up getting torture murdered. The cops then send him to his grandparents to keep him safe, and he planned o testify. However he comes to decide that he misses the tower boys and leaves and reenters the game. But he's then killed for suspicion of being a rat and when he does the cops lead on that case goes poof, and they have no more evidence tying the barksdales to that murder.

That's how I see he flavor fitting. The body guard part is what I more struggle with the flavor, but it's called don't die Wallace, and he does protect a buch of kids, meh? But I can't think of anyone who fits a rat role that would also be a bodyguard.

[Cerulean]

They couldn't have killed Shaft? Someone I'm actually paranoid about? (I mean I was a little paranoid of Pless, but decided they were town through my paranoia.)

Oh check this out. Jason's protective coating has gone snap, crackle, pop

If you follow the link, you will find a game that was running at the same time as this game that features a mafia traitor konowa (one head of tgah) to a mafia goon absta. In that game the mafia member he knew was absta and bussed him early for pretty much no reason at all.

So, Jason for the love of all that is good and holy, please if you're town do something to make me not want to lynch you.

[Cerulean]

*in that game the only mafia member he knew

[Cerulean]

Oh and think that scum is in Camn, Benmage, Jason, Shaft.

If it's kuribo or dv...fml.

[Cerulean]

Derp harder camn.

And explain in all your majestical weird random scumtell glory how me wanting someone I'm paranoid about instead of someone I read as town to be killed.

I'd waiting. I'm ready to take notes and everything!!!

And no, sorry, Deasvail is not in this world or the next claiming his targets. You say it's scummy for me to say I wish someone I was paranoid about would bite it which is a normal feeling, and you actually want a 1 shot BG to claim his target/if he has actually targeted anyone.

Er...Sorry...Not. Gonna. Happen. Keep Dreaming.

Also, if Shaft does happen to be town, he's not claiming a target either. Not. Gonna. Happen. Keep Dreaming.

Are you sure you're town?

Why, by the way, did you push like a boss for Benmage to get put to L-1 that one day only to jump off of him and join him on the cdb wagon. Do tell. I'm really excited to hear all about it.

Also, seriously, We shot BT N3 OBVIOUSLY.

[Cerulean]

Also, I'm sorry to break this to you Camn, but you're actually on the suspect list so you don't get to act like the boss.

It's sad...I know.

[Cerulean]

:crying:

[Cerulean]

Hey here's a novel thought. If you're town, why don't you act like it?

[Cerulean]

I mean seriously Camn. You're demanding the two potentially town healing roles to out their targets/if they've targeted. Obviously, I don't 100% buy Kise's claim or I wouldn't, you know, have wished that he would die to ease my paranoia. But, if he is town and his role is really what he says, you're asking him to give a list of people he's healed, for what reason again. Also, DV isn't dead so if he has used his bg, his target wasn't targetted, and if he hasn't used it then it's still available for him to protect someone who is likely to get killed.

Did you bother thinking of that?

Like almost everyone left's play is just so wtf that I can't figure out who among you is legitimately town.

[Cerulean]

Internet is out til tomorrow at least so phone post will BS brief.

Ben ill answer when have internet if empire doesn't.

Cannot on the off chance that kise is town and role is real outing who he has protected gives scum a road map to who they can kill. I'm not interested in giving them more information. Also, do you really think this would be my reaction to kise if he protected someone I targeted? How much do you understand about muses claimed role?

[Cerulean]

Muses=Jose's. Fucking phone posts.

[Cerulean]

Jose's =kise's grrrrr

[Cerulean]

And cannot was supposed to be camn

[Cerulean]

Still on phone. Grrr.

Camn - serious question. Are you reading the game?

Ben - why did you use the can't read inexperience well excuse for absta when you played with a scum absta in 20th century?

[Cerulean]

You legit can't be. Reading the game.

So camn did you and your partner not kill us because you figured surely the doc protected the vig?

[Cerulean]

Wha wha! Scum skim all the time because they already know who the scum are.

Just so you know I can find scum motivation in all your questions since day start and alot of your play. So sorry.

As far as the if were town qualification..child please. I'd like the name of your dealer cuz the crack your smoking is clearly better than mine.

[Cerulean]

But now camn since you're halfway to joining the world of the living, the real question is. Is kise really the town doc he claims to be?

As far as your DVD question, he's still not answering that but join me on a ride. A Bg dies if his target is selected, yes? So clearly that means a 1 shot getsonly one shot to target. Are you with me now?

As far as the other PR claim faking their targets, namely us. You do realize our kill flavor is murdered right? Good. So, our targets are absolutely unfakable.

Now that that silliness is done, can we move on to you know scumhunting.

[Cerulean]

Why did you think Benmage was the vig?

[Cerulean]

Camn the kise doctor issue has been discussed several times, the modification is why people have given him a town read. You can't fault Mr for not knowing that you jet decided to not read all those posts about his limitation. Your questions at start of.day were extremely scum motivated from my point if view.

[Cerulean]

Kise, why would you think your role meant SK over vig?

Because it is a 1-shot protection of his scumbuddies from an SK...

Camn. When you made this post, did you understand the limitations of kises. Claimed role?

[Cerulean]

Also what's with the Lynch me then attitude. When you were town in ladies night and were suspected you were like "you don't have the balls to Lynch me" not Lynch me then that I remember

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean, camn-Ben?

X

What are your thoughts on Jason
?

[Cerulean]

Camn I never insulted you. Telling you to serpent harder is not an insult, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I'm quit a Ritz myself.

I'm grinding on you, or whatever, because you're in the pool of people I don't know about. I want to believe your town and if I could just feel better about that I could direct my attention to the other three in my suspect pool.

[Cerulean]

And by serpent I mean derp

And Ritz is ditz

Gods I hope a new modem fixes things.

[Cerulean]

Still on phone. Grrr.

Camn - serious question. Are you reading the game?

Ben - why did you use the can't read inexperience well excuse for absta when you played with a scum absta in 20th century?

Ben

[Cerulean]

I thought you knew so to me it was scum motivated. And I did toss around the pssibiliy of you faking it now or being partnered with someone just as clueless.

[Cerulean]

Okay, I have a couple minutes access to Internet, hopefully my new modem will solve my problem and can post once I get home.

Empire said he will answer bens question about dv when he gets a chance since he can answer it much better than I can and his read is stronger than mine.

Camn - here's my thought process on the issue were spinning on.

You ask for the doc protects. I think, because you've shown me no reason to think you're missing something, that you know he's limited and therefore to me it had scum motivation.

Then you start talking about you not knowing, which I considered could be fake but would be kinda silly. At that point you asking for doc protects becomes null, you would do it as either alignment.

But you not knowing that kise is supposedly a limited doc could be a reason for why we're still alive, and I have no reason to believe that Jason is actually reading anything, so where I would normally think well if you were scum surely you're partner would have pointed that out, if Jason is scum then it's just as likely it was missed.

So you could not kill us because you thought we were being protected, but that also makes me wonder why kise is still alive. Who doesn't kill the doc?

[Cerulean]

Still on phone. Grrr.

Camn - serious question. Are you reading the game?

Ben - why did you use the can't read inexperience well excuse for absta when you played with a scum absta in 20th century?

Ben

Because I can't read inexperienced... It's my one flaw.. that's why I hate inexperienced players and have never IC'd..duh?? As for 20th century I didn't remember him from there. I haven't looked back at it.. but I doubt it would have mattered much anyways with his alignment??? Does it?

First off...congratulations.

Next, yes, it matters. You had no problem pushing a scum read on petapan, who incidentally has a start date that is later than absta's, and has about the same number of posts. He says he's lost, you call that lying scum. Absta says he's lost, you say you can't read that because you have trouble reading the inexperienced. But, with absta, you just finished a game in which he was scum just two months before this game started. So, you giving absta a pass because he's "inexperienced" doesn't make sense when you've played in a game in which he won as scum.

[Cerulean]

That DV quote is blatantly out of context. Even I can see that and I'm an idiot.

I'm still a bit confused about what DV meant tho. An explanation would be helpful from him.

Pless was accusing him of making up his role. He was defending himself about it, and being sarcastic.

[Cerulean]

In fact.... it really, really doesn't make sense.

DV! Explain your flavor, will you? How does Wallace keep the police's lines of communication open?

The thing that I keep coming back to is why claim that? If he were scum, why claim that aspect of his role, which is traditionally considered a scum role? Why not just claim Bodyguard. He get a lot less flack for it, which is what he would want if he were scum.

Empire will give why we think he's town tomorrow when he can sit down and explain it.

[Cerulean]

Okay so assuming shaft is town, which is a big assumption, the motivation to leave him alive is the hope that he'll protect scum from the vig? I don't really believe this though as I think the risk outweigh the rewards.

Both Empire and I like Camn's responses and stuff today. We've basically had a town read on her the whole game, besides paranoia here and there. I'll try not to do another 180 on that tomorrow.

We think that Jason is really good way to go today though.

[Cerulean]

So are you also saying that I'm making it up?

The Wallace part, yes.
alternately, our mod simply put NO thought into the flavor for your role. He just haphazardly paired up an interesting role with a random character assignmant, and didn't really link the personality of the character with the role AT ALL.

Decent hypothesis?

But how does sterling fit friendly neighbor or ronnie mo fit joat?

Also, what do you think of my explanation for how it could fit the flavor in Post 2935?

But again, if he were scum why admit to a scum role when he could easily have just claimed bodyguard? The only reason as scum that he would have for outing his role would be to avoid the night kill, which would make him a second traitor or part f a scum team who don't all know each other.

I don't think either of these are very likely. There would be flavor for the second traitor, ala Shardeen who works at Orlando's, but I'm not sure how likely that is. I think pless went over setup spec so I'll look back, but we still read him as town anyway.

[Cerulean]

But I just can't grasp scum not caring this much. It is beyond my scope of mafia....

I dunno, here's a just-ended town game where Jason was way more active
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=25716

Read that game again, you will see the main complaint about me was non-activity......... really, way to misrep.

As for Camn, I forgot about him, He would slot in around Kuribo/Ben maybe JUST Below them but above DV and Cel.

In what universe is that a misrep? It doesn't matter what the complaint against you was, the fact is you were more active. You were scum hunting, hell even in HP where your activity was pretty bad it was better than here and you were a town read to a lot of people because it was obvious that you were trying. You're not here. You're lurking like crazy and you're not actually scumhunting.

And let's play a numbers game to show that what the complaint was doesn't matter. In 29 pages, you had 64 pots. This game has 124 pages and you have 116 posts. Most of those posts were day one and two, so hole you were busy being active in that game, complaints to the otherwise regardless, you were busy doing almost nothing here. You're coasting and lurking. I know you do that as scum

[Cerulean]

Hopefully empire will lay out why we think dv is town today. If he doesn't I guess I'll try.

[Cerulean]

I haven't lost my rocker yet.. Kise, try and hold onto yours.

Whose the final scum with me?? (hint hint, anyway you put it.. DV is scum)

I'm glad you're convinced there's only two left.

Same question to you. Who is the final scum with dv?

And if dv is scum, why did he claim daytalk enabler? The claim only makes sense if he's a traitor, not mafia. And if you believe there are just two scum left, you don't believe in the extra traitor.

But I'll answer this question, you fit with Jason and to a lesser extent camn (but I think she's more likely to be town)

[Cerulean]

I'm not voting for a couple reasons. There's really no need to when we're this far down and our opinions are known. Votes don't present pressure really. And I'm not going to vote until I'm sure I want tht prison lynched. There's a possibility we're in lylo right now. It's slight probably not, but it's still possible.

You can envision my vote on Jason in spirit right now though. Jason has a really good chance to come back scum. Look at the absolute nothing he's been doing in this game. It's not just about lurking. It's about him not doing anything. And now that I've seen a game running at the same time as this with konowa traitor bussing his mafia boss on day one for no reason at all, tht reason why we've been giving Jason a town pass has gone bye bye and I can once again judge him on his play which is atrocious. And other than some tiny glimmers here and there I can't see where he's more likely town than scum but I can see the scum motivation to just lurk especially if you think you have it made because your mafia traitor bussed you and gave you n interaction free pass.

Look at the way he's dismissed the suspicion on him. Day one he claimed we suspected him because he walled, never mind that it was pointing out that his walls were designed to look busy but didn't really contain anything. Today he's accusing kuribo of misrepping because people called him inactive in that game which literally makes no sense at all.

Unless one of you, benmage and camn are scum or Jason is scum, today isn't lylo, and Jason is a problem that needs to be dealt with. He's very likely to come back scum, and if he is town and we hit town today hell most likely be the mislynch tomorrow.

[Cerulean]

Here's how I see the possible partnerships:

Jason/kise and Jason/benmage are both pretty good possibilities. Jason/camn are possible but I have some reservations.

Camn/benmage are also possible as are kise/camn. I haven't really looked into kise/camn but one would think shed know her partners fake claim, so that's less likely I guess.

Kise/benmage would have to have been doing some hellova distancing, which I think is a little less likely coming from them on day two after losing both the traitor and the tracker day one. So probs not.

We're reading kuribo and dv ad town, so if either both of them are fml, but I don't think they are.

[Cerulean]

And if I had a gun I would be lurkervigging Jason tonight.
Just like that.

Why does no one want to lynch him?

?

Because at this rate it's looking like he's being saved as a lylo mislynch. If you want to get it done, push for it now.

yeah so fuck your jason lynch right now. Shoulda got it done earlier.

"Shaft you're terrible"... that's getting old. My activity has been within prod range earlier in the game but I came back and posted clearly what was going on in my mind so you can take your "Shaft is terrible" and shove it straight up your monkey ass(es). Jason's lurking. Ben's lurking. Ceru comes back every so often with a huge post that nobody wants to fucking read.

Every so often? And I haven't been huge walling all game

Also, to be fair at that time we thought tgah's push against Jason made him more likely town, which we know now is false. Now we can actually look at Jason.

[Cerulean]

In a nutshell, Eq fucked it up by being a sacrificial dumbass. So you can now cease being selective when iso'ing me, kuribo.

Here's how I see the possible partnerships:

Jason/kise and Jason/benmage are both pretty good possibilities. Jason/camn are possible but I have some reservations.

Camn/benmage are also possible as are kise/camn. I haven't really looked into kise/camn but one would think shed know her partners fake claim, so that's less likely I guess.

Kise/benmage would have to have been doing some hellova distancing, which I think is a little less likely coming from them on day two after losing both the traitor and the tracker day one. So probs not.

We're reading kuribo and dv ad town, so if either both of them are fml, but I don't think they are.

So basically kise/camn isn't scum but any other combination that doesn't involve the neighborhood could be scum together.

Vote Ben. Get off the bullshit and vote Ben.

In varying degrees, yes.

[Cerulean]

Oh and shaft cut the attitude please. Trying to bully me into voting Ben isn't going to work, and all you're doing right now is annoying me.

[Cerulean]

In a nutshell, Eq fucked it up by being a sacrificial dumbass. So you can now cease being selective when iso'ing me, kuribo.

Here's how I see the possible partnerships:

Jason/kise and Jason/benmage are both pretty good possibilities. Jason/camn are possible but I have some reservations.

Camn/benmage are also possible as are kise/camn. I haven't really looked into kise/camn but one would think shed know her partners fake claim, so that's less likely I guess.

Kise/benmage would have to have been doing some hellova distancing, which I think is a little less likely coming from them on day two after losing both the traitor and the tracker day one. So probs not.

We're reading kuribo and dv ad town, so if either both of them are fml, but I don't think they are.

So basically kise/camn isn't scum but any other combination that doesn't involve the neighborhood could be scum together.

Vote Ben. Get off the bullshit and vote Ben.

Actually no. The pairing I think is least likely is benmage/kise.

Kise/camn could work. Just because I think it would be strange not to remember her partners fake claim doesn't mean it's impossible. it's also possible one peron isn't reading their partners posts or is pretending not to. I just think that's less likely.

[Cerulean]

How?

And why does the Sotty kill point to benmage/camn?

[Cerulean]

And kise why does that not just as easily point to a benmage/Jason pairing or a camn/Jason pairing?

[Cerulean]

Jason needs to die.
If its LYLO now, and Jason is actually town...then we are hosed and this is WHY he should have been vigged.

If its not Lylo, and we let home live, he will be screwing us in lylo just like he is now.

This is what gets me about Camn, and is starting to make me think he could be scum.

He would seemingly rather lynch someone so they are not there at the end, than actually lynch scum.

Why shouldn't anyone think you are actually scum?

[Cerulean]

Not that it affects how I feel on DV, but are you still working on a towncase for DV? I hope it's not a novel.

Empire said he would post it yesterday. I guess he'll post it today. I won't be on for the rest of the day, but if he doesn't post it today I'll try to explain it tomorrow. He's more confident about the read though and can explain it better, so hopefully he'll do it.

[Cerulean]

How?

And why does the Sotty kill point to benmage/camn?

I think Ben and camn aremore likely to outsmart me and call my bluffs. Not to say jason doesn't have a brain but I have never seen him do something as crafty as predicting the moves of others. Kuribo admits to fucking with people when he's scum, so I also threw a vote on him after the Pless kill. Something about Ben's post

after

the vote doesn't sit right with me. I've put the spotlight on him, and do you also notice camn isn't bringing up Ben's absta interactions to help add fuel to the fire? It makes me think she doesn't want to see Ben go.

As things are, I can't bless a jason lynch. It's just a game, win or lose, so if you and your neighbors are dead set on jason then do it. Don't look to me to absolve you for making the decision.

Hold your bloody ego there fellow. I couldn't care about absolution. None of us do. I'm trying to get a read on you.

[Cerulean]

You mean besides the comments I've already made about Ben and the questions ive already posed to Ben about selective scum hunting? Are ou reading the thread?

I'm very suspicious of Ben. I think empire is town reading him though. You cn sk him why.

I want to know your thought on Jason because I think you're a likely partner for Jason. Stop deflecting and give a read on him.

Okay now really gone or the day.

Also Internet pictures when you're clearly not paying attention which are designed to make someone looks bad just make you look bad.

[Cerulean]

My child, you are lost. For we will have to one day show you the truth that is Jesus Kise.... the link you showed was a mini? And jason already countered your point in his next reply but you have no REAL rebuttal to it?

This is so stupid I don't know where to begin. It probably begins with you worshipping a false god; you should be worshipping Iomedae just so you know.

It doesn't matter that it was a micro. It doesn't matter than people complained he was inactive in that game. What matters is that on the whole he was far more active in a game that was running the same time as this game in which he was town. And if you read that game, you'll see him actively scumhunting and questioning people. It's just like in HP, he was pretty obviously town from the beginning and from his posts even though he was low activity. That is the point. He's not here. He's not just lurking; he's coasting.

Also, if you would bother reading the game, you would know why until this point he basically had a free pass. The mafia traitor went after him hard core, and we considered that a mafia traitor wouldn't behave that way to a mafia boss. That's why we haven't pushed for Jason even though we had a strong scum read on him early game. That's why he didn't get vigged because we thought his atrocious play was his town atrocious play, even though it's oodles and oodles worse than the mini and HP combined. I presented evidence at the start of day which shows traitor Konowa bussing like hell his mafia boss unnecessarily in a game running at the same time as this one, which makes our earlier assumptions for Jason being town incorrect.

Also also, you didn't push to take care of Jason on day three. You said he was being saved for the mislynch in lylo. Does that mean you have a town read on him? I hate to break this to you Kise but no one needs your blessing to lynch Jason, but we do care about associations, and your pussyfooting around the Jason situation looks scummy as fuck.

[Cerulean]

Also, now that this is the only game he's in, he's not even making an attempt to turn it around. Especially with horrible posts like Post 3150.

[Cerulean]

Not that it affects how I feel on DV, but are you still working on a towncase for DV? I hope it's not a novel.

I like you better when you're Kise or when you're town.

Either your shaft avatar or your scum role pm brings out the irritating prick in you.

[Cerulean]

Dude that's cold. I'm black.

Empire hasn't been writing it all week; he's just busy.

And I know I write some walls, but you've written walls too so its a bit of a weird complaint.

[Cerulean]

I'm a black king. I'm even featured a couple times in the Baltimore sun. In one I'm geting shot in the foot/leg by Omar. Sonofabitch.

You haven't walled here but you did. In HP. And how do you wall on a phone. This is a bitch to type on.

[Cerulean]

Hey this vig did vig absta so sistah's got it goin on :p

[Cerulean]

Hey all, it feels like the first time in a while I’ve actually bothered to post here (really sorry about that, I’ve been really busy with stuff + I’ve been getting easily distracted). Wanted to talk about DV since I know he’s become a hot topic with his claim and everything.

I actually think his claim makes him more likely town – claiming the pseudo-encryptor part of his role is something I don’t see scum (especially DV) doing when you consider that his claim comes with a 1-shot BG. Claiming the former would just draw a ton of unnecessary attention to DV which would have been completely avoidable by just claiming the bodyguard portion of his role. I also found the manner in which he claimed in the neighborhood to be super genuine -- stating that when he got his role PM he had a hard time working out what alignment he got is something I found super genuine. Combine all of this with his various softclaims (ex: #892) all throughout the early game and I think this claim is real and town. I know the role, if town, is really weird but consider that Faraday is no stranger to including bizarre town roles (ex: BBmolla’s Kill-Immune Until D4/Informed Townie role in ADwD).

Looking at DV’s play, there are lot of things that reminds me of his town self here. #200 in particular is an example of something I don’t really see DV posting as scum – he’s very image conscious as scum and more concerned with appearing town than I think he has been here. Being upfront with the fact that he’s forcing it and doesn’t have any real scumreads just seems like DV being transparent about his thought process. #1545 also reminds me of the cases he’s constructed as town – there’s some bits where it almost feels like he’s undermining his own read and I think as scum he’d have kept those parts out of the post. Also, DV’s self meta bit where he says that he’s usually a lot more “pro-town” than this is accurate, I think.

Interaction-wise, I don’t think he fits with absta either given what I know of his scum meta. I think he would have taken a more firm stance on absta in #706 if they were partners (contrast with Castle Zar where I remember him giving a fairly strong stance on both of his partners) – this just seems like DV being unsure, which is fairly typical DV-town. The appeal to absta in #912 also just seems weird if they’re partners.

So yeah, that’s a pretty good summary of why I’m feeling DV-town. I do kinda wish this were a bit longer, but I’ve spent quite a bit of today with the family for the holiday. I’m going to feel like such an asshole if I’m wrong but if anyone disagrees with my reasoning, feel free to point out where.

[Cerulean]

But now camn since you're halfway to joining the world of the living, the real question is. Is kise really the town doc he claims to be?

As far as your DVD question, he's still not answering that but join me on a ride. A Bg dies if his target is selected, yes? So clearly that means a 1 shot getsonly one shot to target. Are you with me now?

As far as the other PR claim faking their targets, namely us. You do realize our kill flavor is murdered right? Good. So, our targets are absolutely unfakable.

Now that that silliness is done, can we move on to you know scumhunting.

I believe kise right now, and I am no longer interested in his targets.

I DO understand about the bodyguard.
But, I am not sure I believe DV's claim.
It seems to me optimal town-claim is to WITHHOLD the one-shot status.
BUT, I certainly think that a TOWNIE might fake-claim a limited shot so as to lessen the chance of nightkill.
AND I think if DV's claim is true- then the ONLY town response to my question is: "I have not targeted anyone." Whereas scum might be inclined to make something up.

IN re: YOUR claims-- I was kind of interested in what happened LAST night.. but mostly in the context of a doc-save. At this point I dont care.

Inre: Ben- he was giving me vibes early on.. like he was protecting me during the time that kuribo was calling me a SK- just what I would do as a Vig. plus this:

Hmm. Nice shot camn,....

Classic Vig-post.

How so? In what way was he protecting you vig-like early on. And this post you quoted was from day four.

[Cerulean]

So I just had a dream about this game where someone spoiled in the dead qt had posted somewhere else public. They said I was rather oblivious to the fact there was a second traitor about running a neighborhood and quite unwilling to lynch actual scum because I was Town reading them.

Apparently I'm rather unethical in my dreams because instead of replacing out I used that information to try to get a better handle on this game.

Regardless is apparent this game is driving me nuts.

[Cerulean]

Jason could easily be that second traitor.

2nd traitor??

Are you serious? Is this really all you're going to say?

[Cerulean]

Jason.

It does not matter that the people in your other game complained about your lack of activity. Even in your lack of activity, you still were more engaged in the game than here. You were still scumhunting and somewhat engaged in the game. Something that has been completely lacking here.

Saying you don't have a case so I can't defend against it is just bullshit. You've have back to back rolling v/la's and when you are here you comment on things that don't matter and aren't actually scumhunting.

If you're town, stop waiting for something to defend against, and be active. Try and figure out who the damn scum are. Claiming Camn is scum because she wants to lynch you right now because you're so inactive that noone can get any type of read on you isn't scum hunting. You know this. Camn might be scum but that isn't convincing, not when it's very very easy to see you as scum right now.

Right now, you look like coasting lurking scum. You haven't done anything, offered anything, helped at all.

[Cerulean]

Hey Jason, do you really believe scum always http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4678571] pull the no case on me crap?

How do you think that matches up to your responses here.

Also, who are your top two scum reads and why?

[Cerulean]

Kise - did you learn anything from looking through his games? And why are you suddenly interested in Jason's meta?

Camn - do you still suspect benmage? You wanted him put at l-1 yesterday, got your wish but jumped off because no counterwagon so you helped Ben rise the counterwagon to the reason you demanded people vote for. I don't think you've made a peep about benmage but started throwing suspicion dv's way and Jason's. I also don't think you responded to our dv town reasoning. Who do you actually suspect?

[Cerulean]

What did you think of empire's reasoning for dv being town? Do you still see him as a potential partner to Jason?

[Cerulean]

I think empires reasoning is off.
Imagine you got a blue-colored role saying thou had partners, a QT, and you were a day talk enabler.
That would be just as confusing as getting a red-colored role saying you had nothing but your vote.
So DV's 'genuine' confusion is nothing.
As to why he would true claim? Because he started out crumbing it, didn't think it through, and was committed to the action.

Plus, I am not of the mind too let anything in the neighborhood influence me. I can't see it.

Plus plus, I think DV/Jason makes more sense in re last night than Ben/anyone. Ben has been flaky lately, and could be scum, but he is generally more rational, and would be eliminating powder roles by now.

This is weak sauce. And it actually doesn't make any sense. If you have a blue colored role, a qt, partners, are a day talk enabler and are told you can kill each night, you're not going to be confused about your alignment. That's a pretty solid indicator that you're scum.

Getting a read colored role, and your vote, and you're a daytalk enabler could be confusing. I was confused.

Are you saying you were confused and thought you were town when you got your role at first?

Also, so you're saying he thought he'd crumb his scum role for what purpose if he's scum? He didn't think it through is pretty lame, and you're better than that. (see not an insult, I actually have decent expectations of you.)

Beyond that what do you think of his read on his actual play?

So, what changed from you wanting benmage lynhced yesterday, but no really want, to not wanting him lynhced today?

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean, not really. Team mafia was mid last year. It looks like jasonscum is aggressive. I asked him about recent [scum] meta since his other recent game was linked. I figured it would help for the rest of you to look at. I didn't want to be ignorant, however, so I looked at everything he linked.

Yeah, I was his scum partner in team mafia. He started out strong and aggressive and then started coasting and lurking about mid to late day one.

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean, not really. Team mafia was mid last year. It looks like jasonscum is aggressive. I asked him about recent [scum] meta since his other recent game was linked. I figured it would help for the rest of you to look at. I didn't want to be ignorant, however, so I looked at everything he linked.

Yeah, I was his scum partner in team mafia. He started out strong and aggressive and then started coasting and lurking about mid to late day one.

Ebwop started coasting and lurking mid to late day two (not one)

[Cerulean]

I was under the impression that TM was unusual for Jason-scum.

This is true. Moi was so impressed with him, he nominated him. I wish that part of ny146 hadn't been eaten, so I could read that game.

[Cerulean]

@Cerulean, not really. Team mafia was mid last year. It looks like jasonscum is aggressive. I asked him about recent [scum] meta since his other recent game was linked. I figured it would help for the rest of you to look at. I didn't want to be ignorant, however, so I looked at everything he linked.

Yeah, I was his scum partner in team mafia. He started out strong and aggressive and then started coasting and lurking about mid to late day one.

Ebwop started coasting and lurking mid to late day two (not one)

How would you compare him here to HPATPL?

I've already talked about this more than once starting on day one. He was low activity in that game, but he was active and engaged. He was scum hunting, he was interacting with people. I mean I just read through his ISP that game and I can't believe you're trying to compare it. I don't care what the complaints against him were. I townread him early in that game and it never went away, just as I townread him in the mini that just ended as I followed the game.

He's not doing anything here.

[Cerulean]

Oh I forget. He is doing something. We can definitely count on the v/la notice coming in.

[Cerulean]

Kise - His breadcrumbs were funny. However, his play was a lot different from here regardless of his midgame slump in HP. His engagement in the game was way better. As was yours.

This is mostly a prod dodge. Empire and I are both really busy right now and are discussing things when we get a chance.

I don't like that Camn is ignoring the read that empire gave on DV or just blowing it to the side and not commenting on my criticism. I'm getting paranoid of a camn/kise or camn/benmage partnership that is lining up either a mislynch of jason (in the case of camn/benmage) or of benmage (in the case of camn/kise) and then lining up the mislynch of dv or whoever is left tomorrow.

[Cerulean]

I don't like that Camn is ignoring the read that empire gave on DV or just blowing it to the side and not commenting on my criticism.

Oops, I missed that post. I dont have much to add.. but I will try and rephrase.

Playing anti-scum is confusing no matter what color you get. I was confused when I saw red- and thought I was scum. To the point that the mod had to actually correct me.
If I had gotten blue, and

partners

I could have been equally confused.
So saying "He was confused, he's obvtown"- to me THAT is "weak sauce". But you disagree, so fine.

AS far as claiming- TRUE CLAIMS ARE THE BEST. Why? because they are true. Thats why people claim them. The best scum claim is a true claim, and so I dont think it is out of line for DV to have decided on the true-claim path early on.. and then been committed.
Again- to me, using that as a TOWNtell is pretty full of wifom, and not reliable. But whatever. The fact that it is kind of

just me

thinking the claim is MUST-SCUM shows that it wasn't actually a BAD decision on his part.
Do you get that? DV is still alive.
Thus, his claim is NOT something that is obv obv ovb scum to everyone- or he would be dead.
So logically, you cant sit there and say, "its TOO ObvScum! No way would scum do it! Thus he's town!" Because if it WAS so obv- he would be dead.
That is WIFOM logic by definition.

Um way to go ahead and completely oversimplify the read. There were quite a few things in that reads post beyond the claim information for why we think he's town, but I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

I don't see why you would be confused if you got a pm that said, you're partners are x,y, and z, and you can talk to them in this qt and submit a night kill. How in the hell would that confuse anyone no matter the color? Blue is a color used for mafia. Are you with me? Do you get that?

I can understand the getting confused with the red one as I've already said that I complained to Faraday about drawing scum and was corrected myself.

But, we didn't go, "oh he said he was confused, obvtown shew we don't have to read him anymore!" If you will note I was one of the ones who thought ActionDan was trying to fake a towntell by commenting on that. That is just one of many reasons we think he's town.

Also the claim thing is pretty dumb. He could have just claimed bodyguard. You are coming up with a hypothetical scenario to fit your predetermined notion instead of looking at what's likely instead of looking at the whole picture. Case in point, these are two points in a wall post about why we think he's town. He could have claimed vanilla, and we'd still think he's town; these points about the claim are additionals. We think he's town by play. All you're doing is going here's this thing about his claim "caught scum!" And that's pretty weak on your part if you're town.

[Cerulean]

Gods this game is driving me insane. I just read through Jason. I think he might be town.

[Cerulean]

Gods this game is driving me insane. I just read through Jason. I think he might be town.

that's what I've been saying in the QT

The wagon on him seems like it's just waiting for deadline to come along and everyone's just gonna lazypark their vote on him until the neighborhood swoops in for the hammer

Yeah I know and then I just ran through his iso in HP and he was definitely more engaged. Idk. I have a headache though, I'll get back to this tomorrow.

It would be super nice if Ben and dv said something though.

[Cerulean]

Ps - that is not the argument. We think he is town by play camn. The claim stuff is additional to that.

Thank you once again for super oversimplifying something and not reading everything.

[Cerulean]

Oh and if it's not Jason, who is dv's partner by the way?

[Cerulean]

Pps - I kind of actually hope you are scum camn because that would actually make some of your play this game make a whole heap more sense.

[Cerulean]

Never mind the who partner is question. Just read the othe part. Just woke up.

[Cerulean]

The fact that you acknowledge that the strategy isn't paying off is what confuses me the most, since according to you it's my own actions that are making it so.

Thats the incredible self-awareness of it.

A hypo-DV-scum thinks this at the start of the game:
"If I claim this role I have.. then the town will give me a pass since I am a PR.. AND I can use my usefullness to the scum as an excuse for not being killed.. because, in my opinion, that is a valid question for a PR who lives through the night.
BUT.. in my WIFOM glory... if I >as scum< actually go after vanillas.. I can pose the exact question I am worried about to the OTHER claimed PRs!

BOO YAH!"

Of course, Pless thirsting for his partner's blood didn't help them.

This is so fucking stupid I don't know where to begin, but I'm not even going to bother. You've decided to selectively apply things to your notion of what you want this game to believe and quite frankly that has been the overriding problem with this entire game. And part of it is my fault for not fighting harder for the people I was town reading, but people make cases and have their backs up with "I'm right" look I've noted a discrepancy in the text which doesn't even allow for looking for the motivations of people and "how can you not see I'm right" and things like that make me second-guess myself and it shouldn't.

I just can't understand how you are town and are just wholesale discounting other people's reads. Especially when you're own argument is so flimsy and hypothetical that I just can't believe you believe it. That's been part of the problem all game though. "Oh the hydra talking to their other heads scum tell!" "Oh the have a real life not a mafia bot scum tell?" "Oh the checking in to your scum game under an alt scum tell!" Like do you actually believe this shit or is it easier to just get your mislynches that way because that's what this is increasingly looking like.

And if you think that Pless was thirsting for DV or his partners blood, why aren't you voting for either one of the people he was thirsting for? Why aren't you voting for DV today? OR Benmage? Who was the person he said he definitely wanted dead today. Why are you voting for Jason?

You look like you're setting up tomorrow's mislynch.

(And before you flippantly go "lynch me then" note I really really want to. And before you go I'm tired of the insults. This is not an insult. I happen to think you are a conscientious player which is why me feeling like I'm talking to a brick soaked in concrete is making me have very serious doubts about you being town.)

[Cerulean]

The (active? I'm guessing) ability is called defence attorney.

Kuribo?

pedit: I saw that. You deserve to be replaced.

Kise - why are you guessing defense attorney is an active ability?

[Cerulean]

Okay just checking.

Yes, it is.

I'm going to be bald by the time we get our nigh kill.

[Cerulean]

Okay I can't post any ore before deadline and vodka says weeeeeeeeeee there's nothing else to do today.

VOTE: jason

I humbly request a night kill. Please and thank you.