Micro 179 - Mainstream Mini Mafia III [CULT WIN AGAIN]

[Doc Holliday]

/confirm, and that's four

Can Governor save themselves?

I'll get an avatar when I get home tonight

Governor's ability must be used on somebody else.

[Doc Holliday]

Defend your choices. Discuss yourself

[Doc Holliday]

My original join date was in 2011 or something. That said, neither Who nor Irish Pope nor I should be Governor. Who is WAY too happy to take it, and will likely be getting my Day One lynch vote for that reason. Irish Pope is clearly a moron, given his inability to follow his own original intentions and give an important power to the first person to request it. I shouldn't have it because I tend to get tunnel vision and declare people confTown/scum too quickly. Plus I'm rusty.

My leaning is toward ArcAngel, as she appears competent (based on member profile) and is the only person not tainted by self-recommendation, self-exclusion, or nomination by Irish Pope.

PE: Angel, why the vote for the VI? He's obviously untrustworthy and incompetent.

[Doc Holliday]

You very clearly don't know what you're doing. You had a plan, based on bad reasons, and couldn't stick to it. Based on worse reasons

[Doc Holliday]

I explained quite thoroughly, but will hold your hand through it. This is page one, and you have changed your mind three times already. First, you wanted to elect yourself or Candillan, the latter because they had the oldest join date (not true, Angel has everyone beaten, and has several times more posts than everyone else combined, a much better guide for assessing experience). Then you jumped to Who for no apparent reason, then back to yourself after Angel tested your willingness to vote-hop (guessing, Angel, correct me if wrong.)

None of these are inherently scummy or towny, but they are hallmarks of incompetence. Hence, the person I am least comfortable electing is Irish Pope

Side note: working on an avatar, just got home to a laptop

[Doc Holliday]

Governor has the ability to stop a lynch in progress by either sending a PM to the mod or posting publicly. In this game, we elect that person on Day Zero, and they can use the power once during the game.

This is a semi-common ability which, I believe, is described as falling within the Normal ruleset.

[Doc Holliday]

Edit: Governor has the ability to stop a lynch in progress by either sending a PM to the mod or posting publicly*

*Depending on the wording of the role PM/Mod's whim. Usually the latter. It is unknown which we'll be using, but given that the Governor will be publicly known and the use of their power will be immediately obvious, the distinction is moot.

[Doc Holliday]

The Cult Leader would be even more eager for it. Hence my suspicion of your zeal for it.

@Pope: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Governor http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal

[Doc Holliday]

Well, someone researched. I have reason to believe you are overzealous.

I have several years playing on this forum, as I have indicated both in the sign up thread and earlier in this game. The only things I've done so far that weren't off the top of my head were finding the links to educate you.

@Who Are you serious? Really serious? Winning the Governor election in a game like this would practically be an immediate win, as quick hammering day one would be very easy.

[Doc Holliday]

Holy Christ is TIP bad. 39 and 41 are just...egads, bad. Don't take people out of context, and don't ask them to self-meta. Very counter-productive.

@TIP: You didn't even know what a Governor was until I explained it to you. Therefore, you have no experience with the role or how to properly use it. You are not qualified for it.

I am withholding a final opinion on who to elect until ArcAngel posts in a meaningful manner, but at this point it will definitely not be TIP or Who.

[Doc Holliday]

@Mod: You mentioned a time limit on electing a governor, but did not specify what that limit was. Please clarify.

[Doc Holliday]

I really,

really

don't feel like responding to the verbal diarrhea that are the last few posts.

Look, TIP. Your irrationality is starting to come off as distinctly Town, so let me give you some advice: step back. Chill. Recognize that you are a completely inexperienced, and for that objective reason, a terrible choice for the responsibility of Governor. Come to terms with the fact that pointing out your poor decisions is not personal, and that you need to re-evaluate some things.

Done? Okay, good. As it is, this thread has been devoted almost entirely to you acting like a clown and the rest of us trying to point that out to you. Given that Candillan and I have been highly pro-active in trying to correct you, we are both likely Town (yes, even from your perspective.) Given that, the scum is probably within the set of {ArcAngel, Who}, both of whom have managed to take cover under the arguments about you and stay below the radar.

In summation, take a chill pill, get back on task, and get on board.

----

I'm fairly confident that Candillan, TIP, and I are all Town. Of that group, I feel most comfortable with this:

Vote: Candillan

PE: Who, as much as Townies should be

willing

to take the Governorship, the CL should

actively want it

. They'd be practically desperate for it. Further, the idea that a Governor who elects not to exercise their authority is automatically guilty is a fallacy. Given that we need a majority to lynch, it is entirely likely that the Governor will agree with the lynch, and choose not to use it. Indeed, it would be anti-Town to use their ability in such a situation.

My suspicion of Who continues to grow as he sows dissent and prioritizes esoterics over substance.

[Doc Holliday]

@Candillan: My townread on TIP is based on the two observations. First, TIP is extremely new and inexperienced. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Second, newbies who draw a scum role, especially an important scum PR, tend to be very transparently concerned with what people think of them. TIP doesn't afraid of anything. That firmly locks him in as "newbie Town."

[Doc Holliday]

We were all newbies once. The key to surviving it is to take the lessons that come along with the lumps, recognize that you've got a lot to learn, and not take things personally.

Now, I'm getting really antsy for some quality ArcAngel posts. She said she'd catch up yesterday, and it's not like this is exactly a long thread.

[Doc Holliday]

*twiddle*

Checking in

[Doc Holliday]

I really strongly disagree with ArcAngel's proposed claim order, and am automatically suspicious of anyone placing themselves last in a fixed order.

I suggest popcorn* instead, and I am willing to go first. That said, I agree with the logic of claiming right away, though I doubt it will actually help. This game likely has numerous unique roles, and we

*@TIP: Popcorn is a method of mass claiming by which one person is selected to claim first and designate the next claimant, and so on. It has the strength of forcing the communally-determined scummier players to claim first, thereby denying them the flexibility of knowing what everyone else is before making a fake claim. A fixed order, as proposed above, can let a sneaky scum write the order themselves to their own advantage.

Because this game is composed of unique roles, I violently oppose the idea of mass claim. This game is broken in favor of the CL without the presence of a Psychologist-type role (or similar) and a mass claim would only expose them. No scum points awarded to ArcAngel for suggesting mass claim, as I initially liked the notion. Scum points for a self-serving fixed order stand.

[Doc Holliday]

Also, IC is nonsensical in a Cult game. There is no common role that jumps to mind that Who could be soft claiming, reinforcing my unique roles suspicion.

I am intentionally and pointedly choosing not to unvote my election choice.

[Doc Holliday]

Simple. The idea of a massclaim is to try to force scum to commit to a fakeclaim and run them up against a counterclaim. It's also to lay all the Town's cards on the table, to put their previous actions into context. When scum flubs a fakeclaim, or their fakeclaim doesn't match up with their previous actions.

Of these goals, the first is obviated when Town has completely unique roles. My role, at least, is completely new and unrelated to anything I've heard of before, and that suggests to me that most or all of the rest are as well. There's nothing to catch a fakeclaim on. They can say "I'm a Jedi Master! I can have the Mod edit another player's post via Jedi Mind Trick, but I never will, because it's unproductive." They couldn't be called on it, because unique roles.

As for the second goal of massclaim, we're at the beginning of the game. It's not even D1. There's almost nothing to compare to in order to check whether behavior matches claim.

There will be absolutely no positive result to a massclaim. On the contrary, it will allow the CL to identify their greatest threat(s) and work against them, either by mislynching, recruiting, or avoiding the recruitment of a recruitment-immune player.

In summation, Town has nothing to gain, while CL has everything to gain by massclaim. It's an unusual situation.

[Doc Holliday]

Addendum to last sentence of first paragraph: in those situations, scum is discovered to Town's benefit.

[Doc Holliday]

@Angel: A few things to respond to. First, I've been extremely open and above-board about the fact that I'm not scumhunting, I'm Town-hunting. From where I stand, scum is between you and Who, as TIP, Candillan and I are all Town. Your chiding me against scumhunting is baseless and suggests you aren't actually reading the game with a critical eye. That doesn't bode we'll for your Town credit. Second, I have played repeatedly with Chkflip before, not on this account. Third, though I was not a part of the other Mainstream games, my role is entirely new to me. Upon doing my due diligence, it appears the role I have was created quite recently, only showing up for the first time in the last year or so, while I was away from the site. That said, my point remains in force. Chk has a track record for far-flung and obscure roles, which is effectively the same as unique roles. Massclaim only works the way you suggest within Open or Normal games, with a narrow list of possibilities. Finally, I have significant experience, and am quite familiar with Cult rules. A Cult leader would eliminate a role designed to threaten them (I.e. Psychologist) by simply recruiting them to his or her cause. Massclaim works ONLY to the CL's advantage right now.

Two further things.

First, I demand I Angel that she defend her assertion that Massclaim at this point is the right move. How would it benefit Town in this unique situation? You have been challenge on this already, and failed to respond, instead inverting and redirecting the question to me. Preview edit (started writing this before dinner) your logic is terrible. It adds up to "Let's see what happens" and ignores the very real dangers of massclaiming.

Second, I'm done with Who evading and softclaiming. His is the ONLY claim I want, and I want it now. If we can get a confirmed Town, we need it. If something must be done to confirm it, we need to see it happen. If this is a scum bluff, I will not tolerate you to coast on assumed innocence while we tear at one another. Out with it.

[Doc Holliday]

No, Who needs to claim. Softclaims are very bad Town play, and if he's scum, we cannot afford to let him simply coast by on the assumed innocence you're giving him. If his role is actually confirmable, then let's have it and be done. 1 out of 3 is much better than 1 out of 4

[Doc Holliday]

calm down people..
we have time..so lets take this slow..
Doc, you and me have lot to talk ...
i said enough about mass claim. what do kind plan that you have that will ascertain possible. your denial is very suspicious. its like you're not even trying to understand. But that's not how i am trying to look today becuz there is no room for town to make any sort of errors and can get away with it.. my point is why do you don't want to have mass claim is a question?

And remember, finding right governor doesn't help win this game..you need to find CL.
and Mr TIP, i do see your point. At this moment i am tending to believe that it is only one CL and 4 town aligned players due to the size of the game. there won't be two cult leaders even in a 9p game. If chk had two anti town parties got involved into this game.. then it would perhpas be a wolf. So incase cult try to recruit wolf, he dies.. then it will be wolf VS town.. there could be numerous variations that i could give you but it will be too confusing right now. our best shot is "Mass claim" which will help in many ways.. I am not understanding why someone of you are against mass claim in a game like this... and DOC, you gotta stop being a stuborn. seriously. if you're town, let me tell you that youre being very anti-town. and if you're cult, i would say..not doing so bad for yourself but will get you for sure.

Candilian, don't worry about death note role. its not going to be in this game. if it is..i will shoot chk... i mean it.

Half of this does not make grammatical sense, and I therefore do not know where to begin responding to it. Please rephrase in at least sixth grade English, particularly about the "denial". As for why we shouldn't massclaim, I have explained several times in detail. Read it this time.

Also, stop saying that a massclaim will help as if it were a God-given law of the universe. It isn't and it won't. Disagree with me? Fine, you have been invited repeatedly to make a convincing case for massclaim that does not rely on circular, recursive logic, a la "massclaim is good because massclaim is good, and does good things."

One CL vs 4 Townies. Any other setup makes zero sense. Stop arguing the obvious.

[Doc Holliday]

Srsly

[Doc Holliday]

Massclaim vote: no

Let's do it that way.

Also, executioner may as well be an innocent child. CL that can execute is wtf powerful

[Doc Holliday]

I've repeatedly explained why mass claim can ONLY hurt.

Fine. I've been outvoted. I absolutely insist it be done on a popcorn basis, and am willing to go first

[Doc Holliday]

Fair point

I strongly recommend Angel

[Doc Holliday]

^Calling bullshit. Inventor doesn't make sense in context; she'd issue an invention N1, and it wouldn't be useful until N2. There's no possible way to make it to Day 3, so her math doesn't add up.

Also, only scum feel the subconscious need to add 'Anti-Cult' to their fakeclaim.

Just for giggles, let's play this out. I'm assuming Angel popcorns to me. I'm a Gladiator, breadcrumbed in my choice of avatar. I have the power to declar an opponent, at which point only myself and the target can be voted for. I plan to make Day One a choice between me and ArcAngel.

I popcorn to Candillan

[Doc Holliday]

Now we have to finish electing a Governor so Day One can begin and we can progress to voting for ArcAngel

[Doc Holliday]

Also, ArcAngel's role is way too similar to Candillan's for them to both be authentic. Given that he went second and still posted a near-identical role, I'd call it a counterclaim

[Doc Holliday]

Candillan's role claim raises suspicion on him?
Is your town read on him weaker now?

You misread. Candillan's Fisherman and Angel's Inventor are practically the same role. They fill identical niches in game design. If Candillan were scum, he wouldn't have invented a nearly-identical fakeclaim, he'd have claimed something different. Therefore, it is a functional counterclaim against Angel. It actually raises his Town credentials to beyond reproach in my book.

@Angel: I already claimed, your opposition to me is almost entirely based on "Nuh uh!" and retaliatory suspicion, and I have repeatedly and at length explained exactly why I was opposed to massclaim, and felt it only stood to benefit the CL.

No matter, I fully intend to challenge you via Gladiator power as soon as Chkflip gives the Day One go-ahead, and it'll be down to you and me.

[Doc Holliday]

Oh damn. I just checked my role PM for verification of the syntax, and it's a night-activated power. Oh well, I'm certain and don't need to wait.

Vote: Angel

[Doc Holliday]

Dead serious folks. Process of elimination - I'm Town, TIP is Town, Candillan is Town, Who has a comfortable role. Angel has a poorly-worded suspect claim and pushed an anti-Town massclaim as if her life depended on it. This is not complicated

[Doc Holliday]

Confirmable*

Screw you, autocorrect

[Doc Holliday]

See, this is exactly my point. Angel isn't actually reading critically. I've claimed twice, and she's been told by others a couple of times too. Town, no matter how frustrated, reads posts. Scum will just skim and hit back. She's in trouble, so she's flailing.

[Doc Holliday]

The only person I would challenge is Angel, and I can't right now. Governor won't pardon if they agree with the lynch, and you won't execute unless you agree with it either. You're makin it out to be more complicated than it need be.

[Doc Holliday]

Also, given the existence of a bus driver and the fisherman role, CL isn't guaranteed a win if we mislynch. Knowing this, and given the existence of a governor, they won't quickhammer for fear of giving away their identity

[Doc Holliday]

Yep. Anyone have an alternate to lynching Angel?

[Doc Holliday]

You're twisting him up there. Stop inventing scum when we've already got it pinned down

[Doc Holliday]

Who's confirmation will be him hammering a lynch. Angel is again twisting people's words. Executioner, a role that would never go to scum, would allow Who to take someone at L-1 and finish them. I other words, he could take someone with one vote on them, vote for them himself, then execute. The fact that he hasn't, and is being cautious and judicial with the power is practically hard proof that he's Town

[Doc Holliday]

Obv no objection

[Doc Holliday]

What is hard to understand is how you expect anyone to believe you're Town when you haven't done anything productive, instead choosing to frantically defend yourself and OMGUS onto me

Seriously. You made zero effort all game at making logical deductions, finding Townreads to clear, or advancing cases against scum reads the closest you came was wildly pointing back at me, then inexplicably voting for Who

[Doc Holliday]

Angel, I've worked up dossiers of

each

player, systematically establishing whether they were Town or still suspect. Early on, I recognized TIP as new Town, then Candillan as Town because of his behavior. Later, I confirmed my Town suspicion of Candillan with his functional counterclaim of you, which scum simply would

not

have done. Finally, Who has a confirmable role that would

not

have been added to Cult Leader. Given that he will be expected to confirm it, and refusal or failure to do so would lead to him being rapid-lynched, it's not something scum would do. Ergo, Town.

Given all of that, the only option from my perspective is Angel, and the only option from any other perspective is {Angel, Doc}. Given the way in which I've comported myself, and the way you've acted, it's an easy choice.

Finally, you really

haven't

done anything but OMGUS me and, lately, when that didn't work, throw a random, unjustified vote on Who.

Who can't confirm his role yet because someone needs to be lynched in order to demonstrate the power. Again, that's not something scum would claim, ever, as it may be easily disproved.

[Doc Holliday]

Who, please execute. She's just flailing now, trying to muddle things by splitting hairs and arguing semantics.

[Doc Holliday]

New scum isn't as brash as TIP, nor as willing to check themselves, step back, and take a deep breath.

As for Gladiator being a day power, I thought it was. I looked it up after Angel insisted the roles weren't unique, and the wiki article calls it day-only power. I had no reason to check my role PM for confirmation of that fact until I looked up Chk's desired syntax. The role's kind of useless as night-only, ask me. Especially given cult mechanics

[Doc Holliday]

My urgency to lynch Angel is based entirely on the fact that the longer we give her, the more she is able to seed doubt, sow dissent, and weasel her way out. She's solidly caught, but given time, can make it through a day. That's how flailing works; survive at all costs by throwing suspicion everywhere and seeing what sticks

[Doc Holliday]

Let me get this straight - Angel has now called two people out on claiming roles that are slightly different from the common version listed on the wiki. What, are we both supposed to be independent CLs? That's the only way wed both have something to gain by lying.

[Doc Holliday]

^Exactly

Who is Town

[Doc Holliday]

I'm Town. At this point, there simply are no other candidates than Angel.

Who, get off your ass and finish this

[Doc Holliday]

Angel, state your case against Who.

[Doc Holliday]

Angel, I've read your rantings against Who several times, and I still can't see anything resembling a coherent case. The best you seem to come up with is that his role isn't confirmable, despite the fact that he just proved it.

Please make a coherent, unified case, and do so before chk gets back to congratulate us on a Town win

[Doc Holliday]

You haven't made a case. You just keep insulting people and pointing fingers without adequate explanation

[Doc Holliday]

We'll be going to N1

I don't feel confident enough to challenge anyone. In the small likelihood that it's not Angel, I'm back at square one, as all three of you are solid Town in my book.

[Doc Holliday]

'Too dumb to be scum' is a legit strategy. Props, TIP.

Angel, every one of my criticisms stands in full force post-reveal. I may have been flat-out wrong about TIP, leading to my initial suspicion of you, but you did absolutely, positively squat that was pro-Town. You lurked, you OMGUSed, you pointed fingers without reason or coherent case, and all of that caused the seed of suspicion to explode into full certainty. I bear some responsibility for leading the charge against you, but your belligerence and refusal to be productive sealed the deal. Please act more calmly and rationally next time we're Town together.

[Doc Holliday]

Angel, your refusal to do anything productive made you the only choice.

I'm willing to accept responsibility for my part in the loss, but you didn't make any effort. You were wrong, offensive, and unproductive. I was just wrong.

Candillan, don't give me that crap. You thought I was wrong, but made practically no attempt to push any agenda of your own.