NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[Metal Overlord]

EBWOP: Since he is incapable of making such a situation as hypothesised in your #2742 due to lack of such skill, it will go to show that I am town.

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 7.03:

Jennifer - Nachomamma, Metal Overlord, DCL
Metal overlord - Human, Rainbowdash
Nachomamma - Dripping, arcangel, BBmolla, Jennifer (L-2)

Not Voting - zdenek

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch and 5 to no-lynch.

The Deadline is in (expired on 2013-05-29 03:15:34) or by 2:15 AM on May 29th, 2013.

[DrippingGoofball]

Hey MO

Stop spending all your time trying to convince us you're town, it's irritating.

Try to convince me that someone is scum and you'll have my undivided attention.

[Rainbowdash]

EBWOP: Since he is incapable of making such a situation as hypothesised in your #2742 due to lack of such skill, it will go to show that I am town.

In one of your quotes he also calls TL (Syryana) scum.

So....

yeah....

Also you quote him attacking me, he attacked DGB and you seem to at least somewhat support both of our lynches.

Let me guess this is a "the tell applies where it directly benefits me" scenarios?

[DrippingGoofball]

..continue...

[DCLXVI]

Vote: mo

I have to agree that his continued focus on being seen as town rather than scum hunting is not townish.

[BBmolla]

Nacho is fairly obviously avoiding this thread btw

[Zdenek]

Keybladewielder

: I think I said this already, but really not much to go on, but what there is is pretty bad. Can't tell if just an extremely bad player or scum, would make a good policy lynch.

TheActingMethod

: I maintain what was said about them, that they don't ring particularly scummy. More content would, as always, be appreciated, or even a little relevant content if nothing else. Especially if this is a meta thing, and not a tell, I'd like to know if it changes. If so, perhaps pursue better options until that time? So, in light of Meta, I'd say Neutral, though consider for Policy Lynch if it isn't something which changes.

TheUnderachievers

: I don't think I like a single post that they've made. I dislike their positions on issues, and find them anti-town at best. It seems like the majority of their posts are worthless, or dealing with hydra, and those that aren't I dislike the content of. Really, if they're competent, I have to say they're scum, and if they aren't, well, why keep them around? I think they could redeem themselves, but it's unlikely. Plus, the whole deal I've already expressed my opinions on . . . yeah Scum.

....

VOTE: Reek

I'm down with this.

[Zdenek]

Votecount FINAL:

DrippingGoofball - Titan, DCLXVI, Underachivers, Jennifer, Bulbazak
Antilles - Rainbowdash
Ms Marangal - Antilles
Jennifer - Ms. Marangal
Underachivers - DrippingGoofball, Human Destroyer, zdenek, BBmolla, Syryana, Metal Overlord

Not Voting - Arcangel, Klick

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch and 8 to no-lynch.

[/b]

This vote count is kind of interesting.
The DGB wagon is Titan, flipped town, DCL who's started looking like town, TUA - scum, Jennifer who's kind of likely to be town after trying to derail the Syryana wagon and town-Bulbazak. While my reads could be wrong, this makes me think that scum wasn't trying to save TUA.

At the time, RDB was claiming town reads on both slots based on the incorrect scum read on Antilles. The fact that he was neither bussing nor on the townie wagon means that he has a decent chance to be town despite my earlier concerns.

It's hard to draw any conclusions about Klick based on this, since he at about that time. Scum giving up and replacing out is possible, but that a pretty iffy thing to base reads on.

ArcAngel had nothing to say around the time and this could be scum avoiding the thread, not wanting to bus or get caught defending a buddy.

TUA wagon - DGB (prob. town), HD (I remember thinking that he was town), (Zd. town), BBMolla (prob. town), Syryana (Scum), MO (well I used to think that he was town).

I think that the likely hood that TUA wasn't being bussed is very low, and this makes me want to revisit some of my earlier reads. I'd expect there to be at least one more scum on the wagon If I was putting my money on two of them, it would be MO and HD in that order. If there's only one more scum on the wagon, then I'd bet on there being one in the people not voting, and I'd lean towards it being AA.

If DGB is scum, then this analysis goes out the window, but that's something to consider later.

[Zdenek]

Is there a good reason that I am forgetting about to think that ArcAngel is town?

[Zdenek]

If I was going to vote right now, I would vote for MO, but I don't to hammer. I want to read through some ISO's, and that's not going to happen now.

[DrippingGoofball]

I can't read AA9, I leave it to you, kids.

[Rainbowdash]

Nacho is fairly obviously avoiding this thread btw

I would vote him over Jen for basically this. Its not as solid of a tell as it is for some (like Nik, who you can ignore everything he posts and almost perfectly figure what he is by activity patterns) but he gets quieter as scum.

[Metal Overlord]

I don't understand why the town has to fall apart after the successful lynches of TUA KBW, those were a great start

Now we don't even know who is town or what

[Metal Overlord]

EBWOP: Since he is incapable of making such a situation as hypothesised in your #2742 due to lack of such skill, it will go to show that I am town.

In one of your quotes he also calls TL (Syryana) scum.

So....

yeah....

Also you quote him attacking me, he attacked DGB and you seem to at least somewhat support both of our lynches.

Let me guess this is a "the tell applies where it directly benefits me" scenarios?

I did not even look before the Antilles/Marangal flip as a factor for scumhunting for you and DGB. I'm only bringing up TUA because you brought up the subject yourself about TUA bussing, I don't even consider his connections blah blah blah at all.

Supporting anybody's lynches at this point in the game is independent of anything happening before Syryana flip.

If you noticed, Both TUA and Syryana have attempted to call me scum blah blah blah, and I was almost mislynched Day 1 while there was a strong push on KBW and TUA scum. What I'm saying is that I am the threat to the mafia (at this point in time, at least) and a mislynch must be made on me ASAP in order for scum to win. Which is what happened with Bulbazak and Titan town, both were my extreme town reads. I had hammered Bulb to prove DGB wrong, and have been trying to kick her out of the game, but to no avail. The point still stands: DGB pushed for the lynch of Bulbazak and Titan's slot. Insidious? Figure out as much.

I want the town to ascertain that I am town, first, before I make my next point. For some unknown reason, now I am being viewed as scum??? I understand the previous almost-lynch was a warning to me for gloating and I acknowledge my mistake, but now I am going to make my case.

Jennifer. My number 1 arch-enemy(Bulbazak was some sort of rival, but rival are nicer than enemies)

DGB

Jennifer, a scumread has zero merit if you can't explain it. I've asked you to explain your points before, and you've refused, which is anti-town. It's hard to address a case if it's non-existant, which shouldn't be the case if you have a 100% scumread on me. So yes, explain it.

[*]Okay, midway while reading Bulbazak's ISO I actually noticed he listed Jennifer as town; however in light that "Listing MO as town is a moot point" and that he was wrong about Syryana, welp, I'll still make my case

If you disagree with someone who is right, that makes you wrong, does it not?
And if you're wrong, and you constantly push wrong ideas, that makes you a bad player, does it not?

It doesn't necessarily make one scum, it just makes them a bad player. Do you disagree with this?

The problem with that is that town does not know for certain who is scum or not. In essence, we are just making guesses. Hopefully, logical and informed guesses, but still, guesses nonetheless. We can never be absolutely certain that we are right, rather we can only be somewhat certain, and at times, almost positive, but we can never be absolutely positive, especially in an all vanilla game. Anyone who says otherwise is either cocky, an idiot, or scum, if not a combination of the three.

Now it's possible to cut down on the guesswork a bit by using "evidence" that we find to form a case (I put evidence in quotations, because it is not always as clear cut as we like to believe). This helps make our guess an informed one. If someone disagrees, they can always argue the validity of the case by addressing the points and showing why they're either good or bad. Those who do so are good players. Those who don't are bad players or scum.

All that said, your entire post is actually a Circular Argument with a tad bit of Loaded Question thrown in for good measure, both of which are logical fallacies. It's either a bold, and potentially brilliant, scum move or a really bad play by a really cocky player.

DGB is flinging accusations like they're going out of style.

I have 3 scum reads, everyone else is town or prob-town, pretty much. That's hardly "flinging accusations" but you're scum, I shouldn't argue with scum. What am I doing...

Maybe accusation is not as precise a descriptor. How about this: You're flinging OMGUS like it's going out of style. Anyone who suspects you of being scum you immediately accuse of being scum themselves: Titan, Syryana, MO, myself, and who knows who else that I'm probably forgetting about at the moment. You're essentially widening your your list of scum for when one of your mislynches goes through. Seriously, is no one else paying attention to this game?

As with DGB to Bulbazak, Jennifer is to me as a poo flinger with little evidence and justification to support her "scum read".

I request: a lynch of Jennifer; if Jen flips town, DGB along with me will be confirmed town; as parallels to the Bulbazak incident. However, if Jennifer flips scum, we can be a lot more certain that DGB is along the final scum member.

Can you see my logic?

[Metal Overlord]

EBWOP: Since he is incapable of making such a situation as hypothesised in your #2742 due to lack of such skill, it will go to show that I am town.

In one of your quotes he also calls TL (Syryana) scum.

So....

yeah....

Also you quote him attacking me, he attacked DGB and you seem to at least somewhat support both of our lynches.

Let me guess this is a "the tell applies where it directly benefits me" scenarios?

I did not even look before the Antilles/Marangal flip as a factor for scumhunting for you and DGB. I'm only bringing up TUA because you brought up the subject yourself about TUA bussing, I don't even consider his connections blah blah blah at all.

Supporting anybody's lynches at this point in the game is independent of anything happening before Syryana flip.

If you noticed, Both TUA and Syryana have attempted to call me scum blah blah blah, and I was almost mislynched Day 1 while there was a strong push on KBW and TUA scum. What I'm saying is that I am the threat to the mafia (at this point in time, at least) and a mislynch must be made on me ASAP in order for scum to win. Which is what happened with Bulbazak and Titan town, both were my extreme town reads. I had hammered Bulb to prove DGB wrong, and have been trying to kick her out of the game, but to no avail. The point still stands: DGB pushed for the lynch of Bulbazak and Titan's slot. Insidious? Figure out as much.

I want the town to ascertain that I am town, first, before I make my next point. For some unknown reason, now I am being viewed as scum??? I understand the previous almost-lynch was a warning to me for gloating and I acknowledge my mistake, but now I am going to make my case.

Jennifer. My number 1 arch-enemy(Bulbazak was some sort of rival, but rival are nicer than enemies)

DGB

Jennifer, a scumread has zero merit if you can't explain it. I've asked you to explain your points before, and you've refused, which is anti-town. It's hard to address a case if it's non-existant, which shouldn't be the case if you have a 100% scumread on me. So yes, explain it.

[*]Okay, midway while reading Bulbazak's ISO I actually noticed he listed Jennifer as town; however in light that "Listing MO as town is a moot point" and that he was wrong about Syryana, welp, I'll still make my case

If you disagree with someone who is right, that makes you wrong, does it not?
And if you're wrong, and you constantly push wrong ideas, that makes you a bad player, does it not?

It doesn't necessarily make one scum, it just makes them a bad player. Do you disagree with this?

The problem with that is that town does not know for certain who is scum or not. In essence, we are just making guesses. Hopefully, logical and informed guesses, but still, guesses nonetheless. We can never be absolutely certain that we are right, rather we can only be somewhat certain, and at times, almost positive, but we can never be absolutely positive, especially in an all vanilla game. Anyone who says otherwise is either cocky, an idiot, or scum, if not a combination of the three.

Now it's possible to cut down on the guesswork a bit by using "evidence" that we find to form a case (I put evidence in quotations, because it is not always as clear cut as we like to believe). This helps make our guess an informed one. If someone disagrees, they can always argue the validity of the case by addressing the points and showing why they're either good or bad. Those who do so are good players. Those who don't are bad players or scum.

All that said, your entire post is actually a Circular Argument with a tad bit of Loaded Question thrown in for good measure, both of which are logical fallacies. It's either a bold, and potentially brilliant, scum move or a really bad play by a really cocky player.

DGB is flinging accusations like they're going out of style.

I have 3 scum reads, everyone else is town or prob-town, pretty much. That's hardly "flinging accusations" but you're scum, I shouldn't argue with scum. What am I doing...

Maybe accusation is not as precise a descriptor. How about this: You're flinging OMGUS like it's going out of style. Anyone who suspects you of being scum you immediately accuse of being scum themselves: Titan, Syryana, MO, myself, and who knows who else that I'm probably forgetting about at the moment. You're essentially widening your your list of scum for when one of your mislynches goes through. Seriously, is no one else paying attention to this game?

As with DGB to Bulbazak, Jennifer is to me as a poo flinger with little evidence and justification to support her "scum read".

I request: a lynch of Jennifer; if Jen flips town, DGB along with me will be confirmed town; as parallels to the Bulbazak incident. However, if Jennifer flips scum, we can be a lot more certain that DGB is along the final scum member.

Can you see my logic?

[Rainbowdash]

Can you see my logic?

Well...



no.

Not at all.

Should I go back and again reference the games where I realized I got put into a doomed slot and my first response to realizing I was doomed was extremely hard bussing a partner so they would get written off as town for a long period of time?

Also if we are saying you are town for Syryana attacking you, how is DGB scum if Jen is scum? Remember the part where Syryana called DGB scum? Or is that just another page from the "only if convinent to me" useage of tells?

[Zdenek]

I'm beginning to suspect that MO might just be a lunatic.

[Zdenek]

I disagree that Klick was scummy. He wasn't townie either, which means he needs to get roped at some point, but he wasn't scummy. Nacho "not playing to his town meta" is a pretty crap reason to lynch him. What are these things that look bad w.r.t. the Bulb/me chain?

This makes me think Nacho is scum because Syr is defending and distancing himself from the slot at the same time.

[Zdenek]

And, yeah. Right now, looks like a MO-DGB-Lurker-Jennifer scumteam.

We can get that MO lynch.

He picked three good town reads and Lurker.

If TUA is scum, I want to lynch Lurker next.

Actually, I'm probably wrong because of this.

[Metal Overlord]

Should I go back and again reference the games where I realized I got put into a doomed slot and my first response to realizing I was doomed was extremely hard bussing a partner so they would get written off as town for a long period of time?

Also if we are saying you are town for Syryana attacking you, how is DGB scum if Jen is scum? Remember the part where Syryana called DGB scum? Or is that just another page from the "only if convinent to me" useage of tells?

Who are you referring to in the first example, I don't think its TUA because TUA did not replace into a doomed slot at all.
If you are talking about Jennifer, then you must acknowledge that Jennifer is scum. Else I have no idea who you are talking about.


I can explain the second example. Remember when DGB was going extreme offensive on Bulbazak which Bulb described as flinging poo? Bulb was town. I claim that Jennifer is flinging extreme poo onto me, and I know from my perspective that I am town; which draws parallels to the Bulbazak flip. If the pooflingers are town, they are. If pooflinging happens to be the scum's method of offense in this game, it will apply to both DGB and Jennifer. We just need to find out if pooflinging in this case happens to be towntell or scumtell.

Also Syryana could just be distancing/bussing

I reread Syryana's ISO, and your point stands. I honestly do not know what Syryana was trying to do; DGB may also be town, I really don't know. Maybe its just because I'm mad at her for kicking out Bulbazak and Titan. Which is why I revised my main target from DGB and Jennifer to just Jennifer as of the moment. Less risk, more reward.

[Metal Overlord]

And, yeah. Right now, looks like a MO-DGB-Lurker-Jennifer scumteam.

We can get that MO lynch.

He picked three good town reads and Lurker.

If TUA is scum, I want to lynch Lurker next.

Actually, I'm probably wrong because of this.

Also, this is extra powerful evidence, and I think I recall that Lurker = Syryana.
However, that number may be two instead of three -- we cannot be sure about Klick's predictions, however accurate

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm beginning to suspect that MO might just be a lunatic.

In other words, his insane ramblings cannot be ascribed to an alignment... either way.

[DrippingGoofball]

MO's main focus is:

(1) "I am town because the scum blah blah blah" but the same "logic" doesn't apply to other players, only to him
(2) Bulbazak's reads because he's conf-town
(3) ALF, mantis shrimp, and human traffic cones

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is fairly obviously avoiding this thread btw

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 8&sr=posts

I will probably never lynch MO, and would be much happier with a me lynch as opposed to an MO lynch if it meant that MO could get into the accepted townie zone.