Mini 1452 - Inevitable Mafia (Game Over)

[nhammen]

I'm going to re-vote for DCLXVI for now.

Don't hammer him until I get a chance to make my final decision for what I want to do today.

VOTE: DCLXVI

Ummm... what? Hello scumpoints.

radiant wants someone to hammer me but she wants an easy out so she isn't responsible for the lynch. that is scummy as hell.

I'd say if anything, its more likely that she wants you to be pressured into claiming your partner, without her being responsible, but either way it is quite scummy. I mean, who would be dumb enough to think someone would hammer the claimed Mason?

DCL, if he's a town mason, is dead tonight or possibly the next night, agreed?

Alright, if we accept that, then his partner is just a VT. I'd rather that VT turn into a 100% no WIFOM confirmed townie - an innocent child, if you will - upon DCL's death and flip.

I'd rather that VT turn into a 100% no WIFOM confirmed townie at a time when the scum have a harder choice to make than "kill the confirmed or choose someone random". Like maybe when the scum's choice would be "kill the confirmed or the investigative role".


On to the final page of my read!

[gorckat]

I've been waffling back and forth between wanting the other mason out and not out. Cooldog's big rant about getting them out worked for me, but I understand the advantages of keeping them hidden.

What irks me is that I hate the day 2 and 3 game of ohh...that player everyone suspected and ran to L-1 Day 1 is still alive. It just gets to be a damn distraction from new business.

I know that in and of itself isn't a good reason to want DCL lynched, but every time I see this moment (like every game, I think), I want to look at how often towns run scum to L-1 Day 1 and let them off.

The newer players are sitting in a jumble of meh for me right now. I've been ISOing off and on all day but haven't made up my mind whom to push yet.

[nhammen]

So no, I see no downside in this specific situation.

At first I didn't like the idea of masons claiming. Upon further reflection, masons are of limited use to the Town. Equally, they are lower priority targets for scum. They are essentially two VT's that can chit chat, right? It's not like they are going to have information we don't already have outside of each others' identities. If the other mason reveals and they can cross-confirm each other, it's like having two innocent results from a cop.

So, if the scum want to waste their night actions on Masons, that buys our PR's more time to do what they need to do. Seems like a reasonable request. What am I missing?

You are missing that innocent results from a cop are more powerful later in the game than earlier.

But regardless of all of this, we have to lynch dcl today, no matter what. There is no real way around it. Scum will just keep this over our heads in wifom until 1 day before lylo where we have a possible 3 way mason claim thing going on... Don't assume that the scum will kill dcl tonight for us... oh no, they want to keep him alive for as long as possible.

What in the-
I don't even-
There are no words-
hkvsfljaglksdhvkl;asbvl;andvln
I don't know if this is extremely scummy or just plain dumb.

It turns the masons into a power role, though. Innocent childs are a power role - a strong one at that.

So does the Mason claiming on some other day! The only difference, is that the scum get to choose whether the last Mason is turned into an Innocent Child or something STRONGER (as in, outs a scum on its death).

Yates. So you think that asking the mason partner to claim is a reasonable request, as per your #200.

And yet when I say that I think the other mason should claim it's the so called "straw on the camel's back" that makes you vote me?

Umm... wow! Had not noticed this. Now I have to decide between CooLDoG, Radiant, and Yates.


After a bit of thought, I have decided on Radiant. Because DoG could just be playing really really badly and Yates only has one scummy mark, while Radiant has a few.
VOTE: Radiant

[Rob14]

Bah, my reads are like flipped over on themselves. Gonna just give reads. People - ask me to explain if you care about a particular read and I can. Got it all in my notes somewhere.

Town:
Nhammen
DCL
JMO
TMT (yates call-out was good)
ThAd
Gorc
BROseiden (this one is a bit weak)

Null:
guru guru
DBK

Scum:
Radiant
CoolDog
Yates

(Yeah, I just ripped off hammen's list, basically. I've been trying to deny that Cool Dog is scummy for awhile because he's agreeing with me on this mason thing, but his tunnel on DCL specifically is worrying me more and more. And that Yates callout from TMT was very, very good. The contradiction separated by only 13 posts is concerning. Definitely most sure of Radiant.)

[Does Bo Know]

When did you townread Jmo? I must've missed that.

[jmo16mla]

When did you townread Jmo? I must've missed that.

Shhhh. I like being town.

[Does Bo Know]

I think you're town.

Rob just never mentioned what changed from being a scum read to a town read.

[Rob14]

Reasons that are not difficult to deduce based on current info. I would think you'd be more interested in my CoolDog read.

On another note, I withdraw my support for the mason-partner revealing himself. CoolDog wants it, and he's scum, so that's reason enough for me not to.

[jmo16mla]

I'm fine with DCL being town right now.

I thought he was town PR all along. Town PRs often begin to seem to flail earlier than scum because they are obviously town in their mind, while scum try to keep it cool until its absolutely needed.

Why is that first quote only "right now" then? Also, your reasoning for him being a PR sounds like BS to me.

Because we see what will happen over the period of the game to see if he is really a mason or not.

And my reasoning isn't BS. You've never flailed as town PR because you think its painfully obvious that you are town and no one else sees it?

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, you've already explained a huge chunk of why I think CooLDoG is scum, so I don't need that reasoning.

[DCLXVI]

Not going to do the post I was planning on doing tonight, I should have time tomorrow evening.

[RadiantCowbells]

Back. I've made up my mind and am definitely pushing the DCL wagon to its finish.

The votes on me are ne comprende.

radiant wants someone to hammer me but she wants an easy out so she isn't responsible for the lynch. that is scummy as hell.

On the contrary, I have pushed for this lynch from the onset, and will take complete responsibility for it. Unless you're seriously asserting that there was a significant chance of someone randomly quickhammering for no reason, then your case holds no water, and if you are seriously asserting that, then what information does that give us about the quickhammerer that town can use? No, your partner isn't going to quickhammer you for towncred, relax.

3. I will absolutely not reveal who that person is day 1. I will explain that more later today but there is no good reason for me to be outing my partner at this point.
4. If I were to die before naming my partner, at latest he or she should claim the day before lylo is likely to occur.

There is a very good reason for us to want you to out your partner today. If you are mason as you claim, then that gives us a clear assuming one of you dies tonight without the possibility of a counterclaim. If you're scum, then you have to throw one of your partners under the bus, which in the likely chance this save has at least one investigative role allows us to confirm both of your identities. In the case of you being mason, there is no benefit whatsoever to the withholding of your partner's identity, because if scum knows you're telling the truth, they'll kill you tonight and then your partner will function as a counterclaimable named townie; mostly useless. However, if you out your partner then you will still die tonight, but then we have a confirmed clear tomorrow to lead us. Also, if you continue to not out your partner, I will continue to vote you and push for your lynch, and I will make damn sure that no votes are getting split; it's me or you, and if I get lynched, fine, but I promise that you will lose your head tomorrow.

Why is radiant self-voting?

Because why not.

tl;dr:

DCL, if you don't claim a partner, you will get lynched today.

@everyone else, stop letting DCL divert attention with the shitty wagon on me. Rob is also a strong contender for partner status, making DCL/Rob potentially two members of a 3 person scumteam. His responses to the pressure on him sucked elephant dick and he doesn't do anything for town except strut around playing passively while acting like his mason claim makes him confirmed town.

[Does Bo Know]

@Radiant: What do you think of CoolDog wanting to lynch DCL even if he claims a mason partner and the partner confirms?

[Kitoari]

Seeing how guru hasn't even picked up the PM yet, I'll just put in a replace request.

[BROseidon]

In the case of you being mason, there is no benefit whatsoever to the withholding of your partner's identity, because if scum knows you're telling the truth, they'll kill you tonight and then your partner will function as a counterclaimable named townie; mostly useless. However, if you out your partner then you will still die tonight, but then we have a confirmed clear tomorrow to lead us.

No. No. No no no no no no no no no.

Did you not read everything I posted about why he should not do this and why scum won't counterclaim the second mason slot unless the mason claims in LyLo?

@everyone else, stop letting DCL divert attention with the shitty wagon on me. Rob is also a strong contender for partner status, making DCL/Rob potentially two members of a 3 person scumteam. His responses to the pressure on him sucked elephant dick and he doesn't do anything for town except strut around playing passively while acting like his mason claim makes him confirmed town.

Do you have any evidence of this from from their interactions, or is this from you having these two as your two highest scumreads?

[ThAdmiral]

DCL, if he's a town mason, is dead tonight or possibly the next night, agreed?

Alright, if we accept that, then his partner is just a VT. I'd rather that VT turn into a 100% no WIFOM confirmed townie - an innocent child, if you will - upon DCL's death and flip.

So no, I see no downside in this specific situation.

Do you know what breadcrumbing is?

1) Makes it easier for scum to try to weed out other power roles early. Scum can get a mason N1 if they want either way at this point, but if they want to get a stronger PR, not having the second mason claim results in there being a chance that they would still hit a mason.

2) Makes it easier for scum to target masons once masons become a threat. Masons are stronger as the game progresses, because conftown becomes scarier when there are fewer players; scum have fewer players to set up mislynches against. Thus, at a certain point scum do want masons gone, and having the second mason known makes it more likely for this to occur should they not accidentally hit him early.

Tl;dr giving scum more control over when they get the masons killed is bad.

This basically.

But regardless of all of this, we have to lynch dcl today, no matter what. There is no real way around it.

Yes there is, what are you fucking talking about?!?

We are not

Lynching

A claimed Mason today.

My god, thank you.

DCL, if you don't claim a partner, you will get lynched today.

No he won't. Sadly for you there are too many people that aren't going full retard in this game for that to happen.

Qould scum be so bold as to so openly ask for dcl to claim his partner? That sounds like a wifom trap I don't want to get in to.

vote: cooldog

[Does Bo Know]

ThAdmiral: Why not TMT for scum?

[ThAdmiral]

I'll have a look

[Does Bo Know]

Like the guy's vote has been on DCL because DCL was subtly pushing a lynch on TMT, even though DCL is very clearly claiming TMT is scummy and voting him.

And then TMT stops confronting me about my vote and starts questioning Yates on his.

Why don't people see this? He's trying his hardest to 1.) look townie by participating in Mason discussion and 2.) he is focused on derailing his own wagon instead of 3.) looking for scum through tactics other than defense.

His ISO isn't hard to look through, shouldn't take but a few minutes.

[CooLDoG]

Then

Let's lynch him two days before LyLo.

Instead of lynching him today.

K?

no, because we need to know if there are masons. We don't want a 2/3 chance of hitting scum.

I didn't post at all over the weekend, so I have 4 pages to catch up on. I will mention one thing about Mason claims. I was in an open game, in which my partner was forced to claim on D-1 (Link). The SK (Ythill) then pressured my partner into outing me as well. This was on page 7 on D1, with no other roles claimed. This SK ended up winning and claimed that they would have done the same as town. A thread was started in MD after the game ended (don't have link), in which most players did not agree with Ythill, but there were a few that did.

I agree with ythill.

Someone, please let me know what I did. I feel like it's one of those situations where people are talking behind your back, but in a way so that you can hear snatches of the conversation.

WHY ME!!!!?!??!?!?!??!?![/quote]Are you drawing attention to this because you think it looks scummy? If so, why are scum more likely to mke this comment than town? If not, what is the purpose behind this part of your post?
[/quote]
His post reeks of scum caught for the wrong reasons, also know as "why me".

I thought you were a PR with the way you were deflecting and such. Hence, my caution to see his scumminess

You think deflecting is a town tell... Ummm, wow. Just wow. Does "hey I told you guys I was right to defend him" ping anybody else's scumdar? At this point, jmo is either a mason partner or a scum, in my eyes. Since scum already know the answer to that, the only qualms I feel about pressuring him are the whole "what if I'm wrong" thing. If jmo is town, scum probably already suspect jmo as the most likely partner, so if he is non-Mason town, then he will draw an extra kill away from the Mason(s).

Yes to a certain extent. I have conflicting reads on jmo. Sometimes he seems like the most scummy person in the game, other times I think he is just a village idiot. I'm not sure that scum would come out and say something like that... unless they were trying to set-up knowing the correct flip. I really need to read him more... I probably won't have the time (read v/la notice).

I know that in and of itself isn't a good reason to want DCL lynched, but every time I see this moment (like every game, I think), I want to look at how often towns run scum to L-1 Day 1 and let them off.

This is exactly why dcl has to go today. If we lynch him today we gain so much information and remove so much wifom that to not lynch him would be like give the scum a lolly pop.

Reasons that are not difficult to deduce based on current info. I would think you'd be more interested in my CoolDog read.

On another note, I withdraw my support for the mason-partner revealing himself. CoolDog wants it, and he's scum, so that's reason enough for me not to.

this is the worst reasoning ever for not wanting to do something. This basically admits that you won't make the optimal choice just because scum want it.

I just can't see in what world it is a good idea to let an un-cced scummy as hell mason live on to d3. I don't understand why anyone could advocate that.

[Does Bo Know]

Because if the claimed masons live that long, they're probably scum, and we lynch them.

What do you mean by "we don't want a 2/3 chance of hitting scum" because I want in on that shit in every Mafia game.

[gorckat]

Radiant is town... And I don't particularly want to say why.

radiant wants someone to hammer me but she wants an easy out so she isn't responsible for the lynch. that is scummy as hell.

Since Radiant seems to be scum now, wanna share why you had them as town for secret reasons?

[gorckat]

Sorry for the double.

This is exactly why dcl has to go today. If we lynch him today we gain so much information and remove so much wifom that to not lynch him would be like give the scum a lolly pop.

This is making lean back to a DCL lynch...if he is a mason, then him living later is a pre-packaged mid-game lynch for scum, and even later with a partner claim.

As scum, I would

absolutely

gamble, in a 4 v 3 LYLO, on having a scum bud claim. Get caught out and you are now gonna have a quick 3 v 2 day then go 2 v 1, texbook lylo. Not shabby.

The other options are for the partner claim on Day 2 (11 players) or Day 3 (9 players). At both points, we need to not be dickering over this.

Obviously ignoring power and killing roles because I don't care what they do and sometimes, oh shit- they die at night.

[Yates]

Yates. So you think that asking the mason partner to claim is a reasonable request, as per your #200.

Also per my 200...

At first

I didn't like the idea

of masons claiming.

Upon further reflection

...

Then per 208:

This is probably the better argument for not revealing.

Good call.

Here's the order of events:
- I didn't think masons should claim and thought it was stupid when I placed my vote on you in 187.
- It took further reflection and post 198 [which comes after 187] to have me rethinking my position.
- I then state my updated opinion in post 200
- Broseidon's 202 puts into words what had been rattling around in the back of my mind.
- I make post 208 which states that I'm back to being opposed to masons claiming.

Here's the summary:
You partially quote my post 200, misrep my position, and ignore my updated position clearly stated in post 208 in your 219 post.

Yeah. I'm content with my vote on you. I'll worry about my two other scum suspects [cooldog and JMO] tomorrow.

PE: gorkat is not in my Town pile either, fwiw.

[Does Bo Know]

@CooLDoG: Who the fuck else is in your scum pile?

See, my issue with a DCL lynch regardless of this MFing Mason WIFOM is that THERE ARE/COULD BE BETTER LYNCHES.