Mini 1456: Revenge (Game Over!)

[Chenoan]

Because I didn't read it like that? Like. That seems like the logical assumption to me. Also, why make a veiled accusation towards me? It seems like you're doing what people are accusing me of doing - subtly hinting that I'm scum so that other people will come to that conclusion themselves.

Exactly. Why is it a logical assumption to you. Why didn't you read it like that? Why is town v town a choice and not town v scum? Town do not know who is scum and who is town. And esp that early in the game and you seem quite sure of your read? How can you be so sure? And what veiled accusation. If you read it like that, so be it.

What I meant was the face that I didn't read it the same way you seem to have read it seems like the logical assumption to me. Not "omg, he read it differently, MUST BE SCUMZ" which is the round about accusation you're making by asking if I have any information that you don't. How do you not see that as a backhanded accusation?

It reads mainly as town v town to me, but it could also possibly be scum v scum trying to establish distance. That doesn't mean I'm "quite sure" of my read, though. And just because that's how it reads to me doesn't mean that's what it is. It's one interaction and I'm a human who can be wrong. But it stood out to me, so I pointed it out because that's what you're supposed to do. Ykno. Point out things that make players stand out so that everyone can get as much information as possible in order to try and actually lynch scum?

[Chenoan]

This is just really terrible. How is correcting a vote on someone weird? At all? More importantly, how does it make someone scummy?

Since Nul was the only player who noticed the discrepancy it seems really odd to me. And in my post I even said I wasn't sure if it was scummy or not, but because I'm leaning scum on Nul for other reasons and my gut read I'm inclined to think that the reason the error was noticed was scum based.

KBW is making sense. He's not posting in another language or jibberish. Why do you refuse to acknowledge him, but have a townread on Mario? Also, you left a nice open door to open onto a KBW wagon.

KBW's arguments don't make sense to me, not his words. Also, my read on KBW is like the same as my read on Mario and they're both leaning town, so I don't get the point of those comment?

I like the logic of BY's argument against Mario in 121, but I dunno if I buy it.

So in other words, you don't like it? This is just a massive waffle.

No, in other words I mean what I said. I like the logic of the argument, but I don't know if I agree with the argument itself.

Elyse's 123 is weird to me. Randomly defending Mario and then backwardsly jabbing at KBW? When they're behaving in highly similar ways right now. What's off about KBW that's not about Mario, Elyse? His posting is "different"? Can you be less vague?

Randomly defending Mario? Really? You have him as a townread too. Why is it random that I defend him? And I didn't "jab" at KBW. Saying he is off is not jabbing at him. Jabbing at him would be like what you did when you said his posts don't make any sense. KWB and Mario are not acting in similar ways. You are just pretending like KBW is some troll that shouldn't be paid any attention too. I haven't pinpointed exactly what is different about KBW, maybe you could find it if you actually read his posts.

I've literally played half of one game day with KBW, and I still have yet to take time to read his meta. So I don't know how I'm supposed to notice if something is "different"? He doesn't seem different to me from the other game he was in with me, though. So I don't know what you're after.

Nul's searching on jmo's meta is odd to me. But it's a good find. Can you explain the disparity between your claim here and your actions in those games, jmo?

Why is it odd to do meta research? You didn't say it was odd when Chevre did it.

Chevre didn't link specific posts to try to build an argument on someone. I'm not saying the hunting was bad, but it's odd to me. I'm not used to that kind of action on things. Also, I glanced at jmo's past games and there are a LOT more than those 3 games. I might go through some of them later to see if the giving town-reads is really a habit or not.

Terrible, terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE list. MonkeyMan is your biggest scumread, yet you only mention him once? Chevre and Nul, my TOP TWO townreads who actually do meta research and scumhunt, are two of your biggest scumreads? You haven't even provided reasons. Why is jmo scummy? Is the only reason Hoopla scummy because she said someone else is a good vote? How is enomis town? How is BY town if you don't buy his logic?

People can disagree on reads. Also it's a sliding scale, it's not me saying "Oh man X person is definitely scum because they're 4th on my list there". Most of my reads aren't very strong right now. And none of them are strong enough to actually pursue a lynch on.

Monkey has been my strongest scum read for a while, but he doesn't exactly post a lot of content to respond to. So in a catch up post there's not going to be a lot to react to, especially since I previously made a post reacting explicitly to him.

Your comment about my reads on Chevre and Nul isn't really a question. Yes, they're leaning scum for me right now, I posted that, your point?

Hoopla is primarily a null read, but ever so slightly leaning scum because of his weird advocating of a vote without voting it, and also because of Monkey's random town read on him. I don't like those factors, but it's not enough to really get a good read at all.

the enomis thing is in my prior posts, I can go through and detail more if you want me to.

BY is also primarily null, but I like the logic of his argument and can see the thought process on it. I don't necessarily agree with his argument, but that doesn't mean he's scum. But it's not much to base a read on, so like I said he's still mainly null.

[Chenoan]

Oops, sorry, missed the Q on jmo. jmo is primarily null, but the posts Nul brought out on him are a really valid point. But I want to see how he responds in order to form a better read.

[jmo16mla]

@jmo, what is your read on Chenoan? Do you think he is scummy at all? You're acting really conservative with your opinions. Is there a reason why you haven't really been pressuring Monkey besides your questions at #115?

first off, he calls hoopla town, on page three. Hoopla has been here for a bit and is a relatively good player.

Why is she town? she is being aggressive early on in the game. Why wouldn't scum be aggressive?

He tries to use OMGUS as a scum tell, but then doesn't really call it a strong tell, discounting it as "reliable as anything else"

He was really pushing the wagon hard, asking for more votes. Again. On page three.

It kinda tapers off from there. admittedly,

my case isn't strong but I like Monkey for scum

.

Another interesting thing to note is that jmo doesn't say any of these things himself until he was questioned. If you have a scum read on someone, you should be presenting your case to everyone and pressuring the person. To me, it looks like you left your vote on Monkey to avoid standing out and have your vote somewhere, these additional points you've added just looks thrown on after you realised how weak your case was.

You "know your case isn't strong but you like Monkey for scum"? Care to elaborate on this?

[jmo16mla]

shit.

Hes nul-scum.

My vote was pressure. I think he is scum, I vote him. Once again its early in the game.

I put my vote on monkey because i think he is scum. and i still do.

"My case isn't strong but I like Monkey for scum."
Meaning: My case and evidence I have against him, isn't the most compelling, but so far, he is who I have down as scum.

Mod, please delete the link to an ongoing game that nul the major rule breaker decided to post. thanks

Warning Nul to not do it again, but no punishments for now.~Sora

[SoraAdvent]

This contest is set for one fall!
Entering the ring first, from all across the town, the innocent, half-witted townies!
And their opponents, from all walks of life, the scheming, evil, mafia!
...
Yeah, you people REALLY need to get something goin'. I'm-getting-bored-here-in-the-sky.

Votecount 1.6

Voting Nul

-mario and lugi(L-6)

Voting MonkeyMan576

-Chenoan, jmo16mla, Keybladewielder(L-4)

Voting mario and lugi

-Blue Yoshi(L-6)

Voting enomis

-MonkeyMan576, Doc Holliday(L-5)

Voting Chenoan

-Chevre, Nul, Elyse(L-4)

Voting Keybladewielder-

Hoopla(L-6)

Voting Blue Yoshi-

Zionite, enomis(L-5)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is in nine days from now: June 7th, at my former post's(read first post) hour.

Keybladewielder is V/LA until Friday/Sunday.

Blue Yoshi has requested to be replaced: I will find one as soon as possible.

[Chenoan]

@Mod: I think Keybladewielder is still voting for MonkeyMan

(see post 110)

Thanks. I made a huge mistake in VC1.4 thinking that KBW still had his vote on you.~Sora

[SoraAdvent]

Thanks to ac1983fan for replacing Blue Yoshi: welcome him!

[Zionite]

Welcome, but I'm not unvoting you.

[ac1983fan]

UNVOTE: while I read

[Elyse]

Blue Yoshi has requested replacement in all three games I've played with him and it really pisses me off.

[Elyse]

This is just really terrible. How is correcting a vote on someone weird? At all? More importantly, how does it make someone scummy?

Since Nul was the only player who noticed the discrepancy it seems really odd to me. And in my post I even said I wasn't sure if it was scummy or not, but because I'm leaning scum on Nul for other reasons and my gut read I'm inclined to think that the reason the error was noticed was scum based.

It wasn't odd because the discrepancy was about him. It actually makes sense for him to notice it.

KBW is making sense. He's not posting in another language or jibberish. Why do you refuse to acknowledge him, but have a townread on Mario? Also, you left a nice open door to open onto a KBW wagon.

KBW's arguments don't make sense to me, not his words. Also, my read on KBW is like the same as my read on Mario and they're both leaning town, so I don't get the point of those comment?

The point of this comment is that you are saying KBW's arguments don't make sense, but is still town. I don't get that.

I like the logic of BY's argument against Mario in 121, but I dunno if I buy it.

So in other words, you don't like it? This is just a massive waffle.

No, in other words I mean what I said. I like the logic of the argument, but I don't know if I agree with the argument itself.

That still doesn't make sense. You can't have both. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

Elyse's 123 is weird to me. Randomly defending Mario and then backwardsly jabbing at KBW? When they're behaving in highly similar ways right now. What's off about KBW that's not about Mario, Elyse? His posting is "different"? Can you be less vague?

Randomly defending Mario? Really? You have him as a townread too. Why is it random that I defend him? And I didn't "jab" at KBW. Saying he is off is not jabbing at him. Jabbing at him would be like what you did when you said his posts don't make any sense. KWB and Mario are not acting in similar ways. You are just pretending like KBW is some troll that shouldn't be paid any attention too. I haven't pinpointed exactly what is different about KBW, maybe you could find it if you actually read his posts.

I've literally played half of one game day with KBW, and I still have yet to take time to read his meta. So I don't know how I'm supposed to notice if something is "different"? He doesn't seem different to me from the other game he was in with me, though. So I don't know what you're after.

I'm not expecting you to find it, but considering you disregard KBW I was just trying to see if you could pick up on something.

Nul's searching on jmo's meta is odd to me. But it's a good find. Can you explain the disparity between your claim here and your actions in those games, jmo?

Why is it odd to do meta research? You didn't say it was odd when Chevre did it.

Chevre didn't link specific posts to try to build an argument on someone. I'm not saying the hunting was bad, but it's odd to me. I'm not used to that kind of action on things. Also, I glanced at jmo's past games and there are a LOT more than those 3 games. I might go through some of them later to see if the giving town-reads is really a habit or not.

Still haven't explained why it's odd. Just because you aren't used to it does not mean it is odd.

Terrible, terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE list. MonkeyMan is your biggest scumread, yet you only mention him once? Chevre and Nul, my TOP TWO townreads who actually do meta research and scumhunt, are two of your biggest scumreads? You haven't even provided reasons. Why is jmo scummy? Is the only reason Hoopla scummy because she said someone else is a good vote? How is enomis town? How is BY town if you don't buy his logic?

People can disagree on reads. Also it's a sliding scale, it's not me saying "Oh man X person is definitely scum because they're 4th on my list there". Most of my reads aren't very strong right now. And none of them are strong enough to actually pursue a lynch on.

So what's the point of posting them? Only post your strong ones if the others don't have merit.

Your comment about my reads on Chevre and Nul isn't really a question. Yes, they're leaning scum for me right now, I posted that, your point?

WHY ARE THEY SCUM?

Hoopla is primarily a null read, but ever so slightly leaning scum because of his weird advocating of a vote without voting it, and also because of Monkey's random town read on him. I don't like those factors, but it's not enough to really get a good read at all.

As I've already said, people only have one vote. BY is a good vote. But I'm voting you. Am I scum?
And using Monkey's townread as something against Hoopla is...I can't even.

[Chevre]

Nul's play so far perplexes me. I like most of his content but he has the attitude of an aggressive attorney. One particular thing that bothers me is the "would you retract your vote if they got to L-1" question he's posed to jmo16mla (in reference to his vote on MonkeyMan576) and Doc Holliday (in reference to his vote on enomis).

Nul

, would you say this is a pretty normal style of play for you? And could you explain your reasoning for asking the L-1 question?

@Chevre - who else have you read meta on? You mention one game, and say you didn't get to everyone, but don't give any other specifics. Are you trying to make it seem like you're doing more scumhunting than you actually are?

I guess with the summer starting I just decided I wanted to try mafia again, so I signed up for a game. Of course, games don't start immediately, so as the playerlist filled up I tried to read games with them in it. 1426 took out a big chunk of people, and I tried to read enomis and mario and lugi's games, but they were partially destroyed by the site crash in 2011. So it was mostly fruitless. 1426 was really interesting though.

Or, it could be that reactions to pressure is not a reliable scumtell.

(...)

VOTE: Chenoan. (...) I don't really like the way he's responding to pressure

lolwut. "response to pressure isn't a reliable scumtell but I'm going to base my vote on it anyways" ... what even?

Chevre's general questions seem good, but I don't know how much useful content they'll cause. Almost seems like he's just trying to make a lot of noise. Gonna keep an eye on him.

I don't really like how you cut stuff from what I really said. In the original post, I follow the first sentence you quoted with "Personally I agree with Keybladewielder and think it depends on the player." For example, I read games with mario and lugi and Keybladewielder, so I believe their responses to pressure are a little less trustworthy. I hadn't read anything by you so I think your response to pressure is fair game. If you want to rationalize why I shouldn't do so, you can (I see that you do this in 181. Fair do). And my foremost reason for voting you was not how you responded to pressure, I said, "This is mostly gut right now." I can understand cutting irrelevant text, but here it looks like your taking out stuff to make your argument better.

Chenoan's reaction in 181 to Keybladewielder calling him a jerk made me realize that Chenoan isn't really jerky at all, so KBW's answer seems kind of farfetched.

It feels like MonkeyMan576 should have a lot more to say than just 191, given the suspicion against him. I don't even think it looks like content, as Chenoan suggests in 199.

I have to agree right now with Chenoan's read on mario and lugi's "Null" vote.

Nul

, can you provide any insight as to why you realized that the vote was not a vote on you but instead an unvote?

I would also vote MonkeyMan576 at this moment, but I'm more suspicious of Chenoan. Plus, I'm more trusting of the other people voting Chenoan than those voting MonkeyMan right now.

Zionite

, I don't seen an explanation for your ac1983fan (previously Blue Yoshi) vote. Could you give one or point me in the direction of one?

enomis

, a question from me you may have missed:

enomis

, what is the reasoning behind your Blue Yoshi vote?

[Zionite]

@Chevre: My continued vote on the slot is based off my strong Town read of Mario and Luigi and the reasons Blue Yoshi provided for voting M&L. I would also switch back to MonkeyMan if needed. Leading town reads are Doc Holliday and Nul.

[ac1983fan]

Scum aren't normally this agressive early.

I don't buy it.

You uh, don't buy that you are town? ok.

I like this one.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: enomis

No.

I don't like this.

seconded

Hi guys.

Vote: Mario and Luigi

Clearly not paying attention to the game, at least at that point in time.

Who's a good player?

I'm gonna keep my vote on Chenoan for now, see what results it gets out of everyone.

But your reasoning for voting him turned out to be incorrect. Moreover, by saying you want to see what the results are/reactions to a particular action will corrupt any possible data you would get from the reactions.

What the hell? It's page 4 and I can't help it if Sora accidentally messed up the VC.

But the fact that you relied on the vote count to tell you what Chenoan says that you weren't actually paying attention to his posts, where he specifically says he does not approve of the enomi wagon.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueYoshi

Terrible, terrible vote on mario and lugi. Did you even read the game? He stated that he voted "null" as not voting. You also assume that he would vote for enomis when he didn't and never said he would.

It's obvious that he isn't an A-lister as far as skill and communication are concerned. He only said that he thinks two people are working together. One of your assumptions is flat out wrong, and the other you interpreted wrong.

Your vote seems like you don't want to ruffle any feathers and go for the easy lynch.

Also KBW seems off to me this game.

Agree with this.

Read through page 5 / rest coming shortly

[ac1983fan]

Wait, I just realized Blue Yoshi was my predecssor x_X
So yeah, anyone who is voting me - my predeccor indeed looked scummy. I will not deny that and I'm not sure what his thinking was in his postings. Back to reading through!

[Zionite]

That's just too good.

[ac1983fan]

dear god mario's posts are like what even I'm going to assume he's town because dear god what even

No, I can't show examples, I don't look at past games - and most are offsite

That's not being unable to show examples that is choosing not to support your claim

Chevre is obvtown

Zionite's behavior seems a bit more like "stirring the pot" then genuinely doing anything

Can I ask why the fuck you're linking ongoing games?

Because I didn't know the rules. Are you going to reply to any of the questions at all?

You've been registered since 2010 and weren't aware that linking to ongoing games wasn't allowed?

That's just too good.

I mean I know I myself am found scummy in almost everry game I play in whether I am town or scum (I can think of one game where I was a Tracker who ended up assisting moderately in the town win but had at least one other townie constantly accusing me of being scum)

Anyway I've mostly skimmed through everything I'm gonna reread more in depth over the coming days but right now I feel very comfortable with VOTE: KeybladeWielder

[Nul]

I can't believe I have to explain this but here we go;

vote null

because i hate random voting it give the mafia to much time to role fish in my ex.

First of all, do you guys see the double L? He is voting "NULL" not "NUL". Second, look at his next statement; "I hate random voting". Everyone else in the thread was random voting, there was simply no reason for him to single me out. Additionally given the fact that Mario has language difficulties, it all sums up to be a "null vote". If anyone had trouble following this logic, please explain. @mod, you still have got it wrong in #205.

Okay but I asked what the difference was in action, not in motivation. I already said that there was a possible difference in motivation, but how is a player supposed to 100% know the motivation of another player? Oh right, only scum can do that.

You can tell the difference in motivation by the way the phrase sounds. You quite clearly used "BS wagon" which as I said, sounds like pushing for a lynch. Pushing for votes sounds to me like asking for pressure.

No, I am giving information. And I'm providing reasons form my information. I'm also not fence-sitting

"Random Elyse vs Mario tension is random. Either town v town or maybe forced distancing. I can't decide."
No information, nothing to back up and you're quite clearly fence-sitting. Read #73 by you, there was no real content created.

I'm sorry that I made the assumption that voting for someone and giving a reason why and then calling them out for not responding to the vote was enough to "present the argument" to a player? Because that seems like pretty blatantly presenting an argument to someone.

You keep mentioning that Monkey isn't addressing the arguments on him, but that's all you say. Can you at least quote what he is not responding to? I don't feel like you are trying to scumhunt.

Your interactions with players.

You call me out for asking questions but early on all you did was ask questions as well.

It seems like you're just trying to go for an

easy lynch

while trying to earn town cred by defending certain players. I don't like that.

Your questions are useless and lead no where in terms of scumhunting, ISO yourself and read #73.

I have trouble understanding some of the logic you spew. "Easy lynch"? There was no solid case on you until now and there were 2 players who were on L-4 that already had cases pitched against them. Chevre's vote on you didn't even scratch the surface of your case, his reasoning was "gut". If you're going to use word play to try to misrepresent my case, I would recommend you being more subtle about it.

Also, Nul. Why didn't you respond to this? Does it weaken your case against me too much so you don't want to bring attention to it?

It's irrelevant. Jmo was claiming he "doesn't typically give out town reads" which could be proven false. You acting jumpy when being voted on in your meta can't be relied on even if I proved it to be false, because people's play styles changes. I suggest you give this a read: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Meta

Monkey has been my strongest scum read for a while, but he doesn't exactly post a lot of content to respond to. So in a catch up post there's not going to be a lot to react to, especially since I previously made a post reacting explicitly to him.

A "catch up" post should be a followup on your scumreads. I don't see you pursuing your vote on Monkey at all in your recent posts. It seems to me like you are more interested in defending yourself than actual scumhunting.

Nul, would you say this is a pretty normal style of play for you? And could you explain your reasoning for asking the L-1 question?

I was trying to ask them whether or not they would be happy if the person they were voting were lynched but both avoided the question or said it's too early. So I wanted to ask a question that would force them to make a decision of whether they would stick by their vote or leave it if push comes to shove.

You've been registered since 2010 and weren't aware that linking to ongoing games wasn't allowed?

I've played 2 or so games and I didn't complete any of them. That was 3 years ago.

[Zionite]

dear god mario's posts are like what even I'm going to assume he's town because dear god what even

No, I can't show examples, I don't look at past games - and most are offsite

That's not being unable to show examples that is choosing not to support your claim

Chevre is obvtown

Zionite's behavior seems a bit more like "stirring the pot" then genuinely doing anything

Can I ask why the fuck you're linking ongoing games?

Because I didn't know the rules. Are you going to reply to any of the questions at all?

You've been registered since 2010 and weren't aware that linking to ongoing games wasn't allowed?

That's just too good.

I mean I know I myself am found scummy in almost everry game I play in whether I am town or scum (I can think of one game where I was a Tracker who ended up assisting moderately in the town win but had at least one other townie constantly accusing me of being scum)

Anyway I've mostly skimmed through everything I'm gonna reread more in depth over the coming days but right now I feel very comfortable with VOTE: KeybladeWielder

Stirring the the pot is doing something. Garners reactions and therefore reads.

"I'm always read as scum" is not a valid defense unless you link posts from other games that are similar.

[enomis]

Because I didn't read it like that? Like. That seems like the logical assumption to me. Also, why make a veiled accusation towards me? It seems like you're doing what people are accusing me of doing - subtly hinting that I'm scum so that other people will come to that conclusion themselves.

Exactly. Why is it a logical assumption to you. Why didn't you read it like that? Why is town v town a choice and not town v scum? Town do not know who is scum and who is town. And esp that early in the game and you seem quite sure of your read? How can you be so sure? And what veiled accusation. If you read it like that, so be it.

What I meant was the face that I didn't read it the same way you seem to have read it seems like the logical assumption to me. Not "omg, he read it differently, MUST BE SCUMZ" which is the round about accusation you're making by asking if I have any information that you don't. How do you not see that as a backhanded accusation?

It reads mainly as town v town to me, but it could also possibly be scum v scum trying to establish distance. That doesn't mean I'm "quite sure" of my read, though. And just because that's how it reads to me doesn't mean that's what it is. It's one interaction and I'm a human who can be wrong. But it stood out to me, so I pointed it out because that's what you're supposed to do. Ykno. Point out things that make players stand out so that everyone can get as much information as possible in order to try and actually lynch scum?

You totally avoided my question. My question:"WHY IS TOWN V SCUM EXCLUDED". You saying that its either town v town or scum v scum means that you are sure that they are of the SAME ALIGNMENT.

@Chevre:

I did answer:

@Chevre
I didn't like how enomis just said "no" as a response to a vote on him.

@enomis
His assumption was wrong when he said that mario and lugi called you scum, not when he said two people have been working together.

If you thought that assumption was wrong, why are you voting for BY?

Because it feels like he is just looking for someone to lynch and not scumhunting to lynch scum. And that post doesn't feel genuine.

That's just too good.

I mean I know I myself am found scummy in almost everry game I play in whether I am town or scum (I can think of one game where I was a Tracker who ended up assisting moderately in the town win but had at least one other townie constantly accusing me of being scum)

Why the overreaction of saying you are found scummy in almost every game? The part about you saying blue yoshi is scummy could be read as a simple mistake and actually reflects well on you. So why do you feel the need to say you are found scummy in almost every game.

[Hoopla]

apologies, but i'll be v/la for 24-48 hours. will try and make posts in between, but no promises.

[mario and lugi]

sorry i been away i was busy in life :} and my brothers funeral so i haven't really been able to post. second after my through on all that has happened with you i do belive monkey man is scum so i say we lynch him and find out for sure ? still 50-50 we are all wrong on this and he just sounds scummy ? because sometimes that happens with out meaning to to happen as we post ???

[Zionite]

@enomis: I don't really think that leaving out town vs scum is as big a deal as you're making it.
@mario and luigi: Do you think monkeyman is scum?

[ac1983fan]

"I'm always read as scum" is not a valid defense unless you link posts from other games that are similar.

How am I defending myself? I am just saying that town players can appear to be scum, and I myself have found myself to be in such a situation, so for BlueYoshi (my predecessor) to look scummy and yet myself to still be town is not an impossible possibility.