Newbie 1378 - Game Over! (Town Wins)

[Lucky2u]

So unofficial vote count

Lucky2u 1: Enomis
Ucrititon 1: Mastin
Mastin 1: Ucrit
Enomis 1: Lucky2u

I think that is accurate. We are in a bit of trouble guys. There is only 1 scum and 4 Vanilla Townies. How are we so spread out? Atleast three of the people voting have to be town and noone is in agreement about anything. Linxie, as the only non voter, what is your opinion if you had to vote RIGHT now?

[mastin2]

Just remembered the reason for my townread on enomis.

Enomis yesterday held the hammer when both wagons were at L-1. If he so chose, he could have lynched Lucky2u. He could have gotten away with it, too, because there were a fair number of points against Lucky2u, and he could claim ignorance to mattel's cop guilty on Jason.

He did not.

The very act of not hammering made me think he was town. He was analyzing things, considering them carefully. He was doing much as I'd expect a town player to have done in that situation, which made his position much stronger overall. All from yesterday.

On a purely personal note for today, he could have hammered me--and gotten away with it. As scum, him hammering me would not look bad, because there are plenty of points which can be used against me. They may not be accurate, but they (so to speak) "look good", in that they look like reasons that a town player

could

be suspicious of me. And then, he could have killed, say, Linxie, or maybe Lucky2u, and then used MY reasoning to mislynch triton in lylo, or mislynch Lucky2u, or mislynch...well, anybody, really.

I find it INCREDIBLY unlikely that he-as-scum would not do the above, and since it wasn't done, that SIGNIFICANTLY increases his likelihood of being town.

...Also, triton's scum, there's only one scum alive, so by default, everyone else is town.

[Lucky2u]

UNVOTE:

...the point about the hammer is right. He could have hammered me and noone would have thought twice. I played terribly and looked so scum I would have voted for me if I wasn't me. We just lynched a scum, why isn't this easier?

[uctriton00]

500 posts in

mastin votes,

me
lucky
radiant
enomis

if you two guys (enomis and lucky) are indeed town, doesn't it look awfully suspicious that he gets on all of us?

and of course he votes Jason. When does he vote Jason?

he votes Jason after I come off of L-1 and consider the hammer onto Lucky.

scum mastin at his computer:
"damn, jason is in trouble, he's at l-1 and i'm not on that bandwagon. ****."
"wait, did someone unvote him? yes, I need to get on it asap!"

[uctriton00]

I think I just broke the game open right there.

[uctriton00]

Also

when does Jason ever vote Mastin?

I didn't see it in the ISO

[uctriton00]

Can I just ask at least, what does everyone LIKE about mastin that they don't want to vote him?

[mastin2]

Alright. So I was 95% certain triton was scum before. But now?

500 posts in

mastin votes,

me
lucky
radiant
enomis

if you two guys (enomis and lucky) are indeed town, doesn't it look awfully suspicious that he gets on all of us?

Now I'm 100% certain triton is scum, off of this. This is a scum SE, appealing to newbie logic. This logic of "voting everyone" appeals to newbies. It's the exact kind of argument a lot of newbies make. But triton--as an experienced SE--KNOWS better than this. He KNOWS that over the course of the game,

reads evolve

. In fact, I even put this in a lecture near the beginning of the game. One of my VERY FIRST IC POSTS was telling players to let "reads fit the evidence, not evidence to fit the reads", my golden rule. As new evidence was brought up, my reads changed accordingly.

Yes, I have voted lucky, because I had a scumread on him off of his posting. Yes, I have voted enomis, because I had a scumread on his posting. Yes, I am voting triton, because I have a scumread on his posting. But those reads have evolved as new posts were made and things came to light. The number of posts isn't important. (Heck, even the amount of time isn't that important, but it's certainly more important than number of posts.) The CONTENT of those posts is what's important.

This is as close to a scumclaim as you can get from triton, an experienced player, who is now manipulating newbies.

[uctriton00]

This is as close to a scumclaim as you can get from triton, an experienced player, who is now manipulating newbies.

HAHAHA

mastin you are really stuck, aren't you?

"hey guys, he's manipulating all of you!"

How am I "manipulating" anything?

Mastin you're the one manipulating my words.

[uctriton00]

mastin, I know this is a game. but even I haven't stooped to the level of lies you and jason have spewed in this game. it's seriously sad.

[uctriton00]

This is a scum SE, appealing to newbie logic. This logic of "voting everyone" appeals to newbies. It's the exact kind of argument a lot of newbies make. But triton--as an experienced SE--KNOWS better than this. He KNOWS that over the course of the game, reads evolve.

You keep putting words into my mouth.

"Triton KNOWS...."
"He KNOWS...."

If this isn't some form of manipulation, then I don't know what is.

[uctriton00]

As new evidence was brought up, my reads changed accordingly.

I sincerely was ready to ram Lucky and Mattel into a train, until we got evidence from the Jason flip and the Mattel flip.

Do you honestly think I am "not evolving my reads"?

[uctriton00]

5. You are not forced to like each other, but the fact that you badly want so and so offed does not give you the right to insult him or her.

Speaking of which, how does JasonWazza get to continue to play on this site, with the way he acts?

[uctriton00]

You know why I also think you're scum?

You're trying to play a very controlled, even, level headed game. Screw the fact that you're an IC; you're not going on gut wrenching benders. You're playing like a defense lawyer, presenting evidence and being as professional as possible.

You're posturing.

[mastin2]

Missed this gem.

if you two guys (enomis and lucky) are indeed town, doesn't it look awfully suspicious that he gets on all of us?

He's saying that I'm scum. For me to be scum, he has to BY DEFAULT believe that enomis and lucky are town. Note also the careful wording: "awfully suspicious". Instead of "look like scum". He's preparing to justify my townflip. He's preparing to cover his tracks, to go, "oops, he was just a scummy townie", and from this, I'm guessing nightkill linxie and leave a 3P lylo consisting of Lucky2u, enomis, and himself. Which is perfect for him, because look at that "if you two guys are indeed town" bit! It leaves him open to considering either of you scum, which is quite convenient considering that you two had already been at each other's throats before. In lylo, he could see that as an easy win. His only obstacle is me.

You keep putting words into my mouth.

"Triton KNOWS...."
"He KNOWS...."

If this isn't some form of manipulation, then I don't know what is.

But the things I'm saying you know are things you, as a damn-good SE with multiple games of experience ALREADY WOULD KNOW. For instance, you can ask any IC. LITERALLY ANY IC. It doesn't even have to be a Thor or Nacho-level IC. Ask them about the argument triton is presenting in 653. UNANIMOUSLY, you'll get the response that it doesn't hold water. You'll see consistently across the board them saying the same thing, that it's the content of the posts that matter, as reads evolve naturally. Their wording may be different, but the conclusion is the same. Heck, you can even browse MD for stuff like this. Though the exact topic is never brought up, by simply looking around you can find plenty about it, and again, they're consistent. Reads evolve naturally as the game progresses.

As new evidence was brought up, my reads changed accordingly.

I sincerely was ready to ram Lucky and Mattel into a train, until we got evidence from the Jason flip and the Mattel flip.

Do you honestly think I am "not evolving my reads"?

First off, this is proof that triton's story is full of holes. He's flat-out admitting that he was lying with his reasons for hammering Jason, here. If he was truthful in wanting to lynch Lucky and mattel, he

would have waited

, rather than voting for Jason.

Second-off, no, triton's reads have not evolved organically. The switches were abrupt and poorly-reasoned, if reasons were given at all. For instance, his scumread on me coming into today, was that I was out for revenge. What does he do when I prove this to be false? Ignore it, and continue pushing me. He tries to find new angles. He violates that fundamental golden rule. He's looking for evidence to fit the read, rather than having a read fitting the evidence.

[uctriton00]

Also mastin, here's another problem i have:

you keep bringing up labels.

"newbie".

You're manipulating people. You're trying to paste the word newbie on people's foreheads. You're being rather pedantic, almost trying to talk people down from a pedestal and saying "you guys don't know what's going on, so you newbies, let me spell it out for you". Again, forget that you're an IC (in fact, nothing in the IC guidelines says to remind people about the word newbies). I'm tired of you always trying to fit everyone into these pegs you want people to be in, and you're saying "stop manipulating the newbies", "stop lying to the newbies", "stop controlling the newbies".

It's a form of manipulation, and I see you being scum for it. Everyone is their own player, we all have our town cards. You're trying to take your *position* of an IC, and trying to control the flow of the game.

Me? I'm playing from my gut. My gut that thought RC was scum, but was wrong. My gut that thought it was Lucky all along, until Mattel said he's a cop, so i followed Mattel. My gut that was right to trust Mattel. My gut that it's you Mastin, based on my gut of how you've been voting, how you've been playing. My gut that it's not Lucky based on how he interacts with people. My gut that it's not Linxie based on twilight. My gut that it's not enomis based on his replacement play, and his play today even.

[mastin2]

You know why I also think you're scum?

You're trying to play a very controlled, even, level headed game. Screw the fact that you're an IC; you're not going on gut wrenching benders. You're playing like a defense lawyer, presenting evidence and being as professional as possible.

And this is yet another nail in triton's coffin. His argument for thinking I'm scum is that I'm

being logical and rational

.

That's it. Seriously. Read this. Tell me it says anything other than that. Tell me it says anything other than, "Mastin is scum because he's using logic".

As valuable as gut-reads are on MS.net, though...triton should know better than this. On mafiascum.net, we're

supposed

to use logic. We're seen overall as being a highly-rational site, with arguments supported by facts.

[Linxie]

I figured out mattel's crumb the moment I switched my vote off of Lucky, so that'd be right here.

@Ucrit and Mastin: When did you all first find mattel's breadcrumb. Point it out to me.

I read it as "which post of Mattel's alerted you to the possibility he was cop" and point that post out (not your post, Mattel's post). I would also like to know this.

[uctriton00]

First off, this is proof that triton's story is full of holes. He's flat-out admitting that he was lying with his reasons for hammering Jason, here.

Try again.

Why I hammered Jason: because Mattel claimed cop.

[mastin2]

Spoiler: triton's newest post

Also mastin, here's another problem i have:

you keep bringing up labels.

"newbie".

You're manipulating people. You're trying to paste the word newbie on people's foreheads. You're being rather pedantic, almost trying to talk people down from a pedestal and saying "you guys don't know what's going on, so you newbies, let me spell it out for you". Again, forget that you're an IC (in fact, nothing in the IC guidelines says to remind people about the word newbies). I'm tired of you always trying to fit everyone into these pegs you want people to be in, and you're saying "stop manipulating the newbies", "stop lying to the newbies", "stop controlling the newbies".

It's a form of manipulation, and I see you being scum for it. Everyone is their own player, we all have our town cards. You're trying to take your *position* of an IC, and trying to control the flow of the game.

Me? I'm playing from my gut. My gut that thought RC was scum, but was wrong. My gut that thought it was Lucky all along, until Mattel said he's a cop, so i followed Mattel. My gut that was right to trust Mattel. My gut that it's you Mastin, based on my gut of how you've been voting, how you've been playing. My gut that it's not Lucky based on how he interacts with people. My gut that it's not Linxie based on twilight. My gut that it's not enomis based on his replacement play, and his play today even.

Funny that triton accuses me of manipulating people and using my status as an IC to my advantage, considering

that's

exactly

what I've been accusing him of doing

. It's also blatantly false. In fact, it's the ultimate insult. I've not IC'd many times, but the few times I do IC, no argument ticks me off more than "He's using his status as an IC to manipulate people". That goes against every single code of ethics I've been risen with. It goes against the "Being a good IC" guideline page. It goes against my

fundamental nature as a person

to manipulate newbies with my teachings. It's not only unethical, but also immoral.

I make DAMN sure as the IC to keep my teachings separate from my play. Whereas triton? Triton's been exploiting his status as an SE from his

very first post

that I called him out for.

This is more than enough proof for why triton is scum. I can continue, and maybe bring up even more new points, but there comes a point in time where I feel as if I've brought TOO much info to the table and it could overwhelm ya. So I'll probably be stopping here for the day. Needless to say, I've hammered in point after point showing why triton is scum (and will likely summarize 'em all tomorrow), so now it's your job to read 'em and analyze my reasons.

[mastin2]

I am focusing on Jason because I know he is scum. Take that how you will.

This was the post that tipped me off to mattel being the cop. That's the universal signpost for "I have a guilty, you morons!"

When I saw it, I went, "waitwhat, did I just see what I thought I saw?", did a quick crosscheck of mattel's posts on D2, and then, " Oh, man, Mastin, you're an idiot. How'd you miss that before?" And that's when I switched my vote.

[Linxie]

Thanks

@Uctriton?

[uctriton00]

It's also blatantly false. In fact, it's the ultimate insult.

First off I'm not trying to insult you, so apologies if I did and I'm sorry.

Second, I'm in a hubbub because mastin, you're wrong. I'm not scum. I'm town.

You're story on me being scum is that somehow I'm full of holes. Full of holes, you say?

Here is my honest thought process, again, repeated for the umpteenth time, to repeat to everyone.

- Voted Jason on a hunch
- Switched to Lucky
- Mattel claimed cop, saying go back to Jason
- Hammered Jason
- Jason said I'm the cop you idiot, and other insults to which I don't know how you're not modkilled
- Felt horrible about killing our cop. Vowed to get revenge on Mattel for what is obviously his fake claim.
- Jason says he's actually not our cop and is scum.
- Figured out in my head that Mattel was telling the truth. Tried to draw the nightfire kill by pretending I was going to be this force to be reckoned with Day 3, to scare the last scum member. Didn't work.
- Did not know who last scum member was.
- Mastin comes hard after me. Sees this as a tipoff that it's Mastin.
- Finds overwhelming evidence that it's Mastin.

There are no holes in that story. That is me playing from my gut and my head. A lot of ATE in there, and a lot of frustration too, because I have a town card and everything Mastin says is simply not true. It's frustrating. I also have this pile of evidence against the last scum being Mastin
- His initial vote on Day 3 against me, as I had told everyone I was the clear threat to defeat the game
- His voting pattern
- Jason's voting pattern
- His posturing

This is where Mastin comes in with his rule: he says I picked evidence to fit the reads, not reads to fit the evidence. I admit, I don't play by that rule. I play by gut. Gut gets me wrong a lot of times (part of Radiant's wagon on Day 1), but gets me right too (finding Mattel's claim). Is that a scum tell? To not follow that rule? I don't think so.

[uctriton00]

Linxie,

the claim was right before I hammered. He said something along the lines of "trust me when i say jason is scum" or something like that. Didn't I already point this out, I think?

[Linxie]

You did, I wanted you to quote it

This one?

We are going to be in trouble if we let jason get away. Please believe me that I know jason is scum.