Newbie 1378 - Game Over! (Town Wins)

[mastin2]

Fine i will humor you. Give me some examples where you self-voted for being wrong. Recent games please.

I was going to save this for part 3, but I guess I might as well do it now. Right here,

Iff Darthe flips scum then mastin will be the next lynch, amirite?

If Darthe flipped scum? Yes. Go ahead. Lynch my ass.

(Darthe Flipped scum, soooo...) The followthrough was here. A night-lynch, but still technically a lynch. Now if you extend the time limit back a bit, I'll show you a previous instance of that exact same promise, but an identical inability to fulfill it: start reading from here. I entered into a 1V1 with Ludi. Here is where it got serious. And Here is how I reacted. I was town then, as I am town now. There are probably plenty of others, but these two are the ones which popped most immediately into my mind; I have a history of self-voting or wishing to self-vote after screwups.

You had me as confirmed town because of myself. You had linxie as confirmed town because Ucrit is scum. So when Ucrit died, your confirmed town status on linxie should be gone. So your statement should be something like:"Oh shit, linxie may be scum. But i will need to reevaluate and iso enomis too" something like that. And not "Oh shit, both of them are my confirmed town reads, gg, i would self-vote if there weren't lylo." --< this reaction is simply fake and does not follow your flow of logic because linxie is not your confirmed town read if Ucrit died.

The problem with this logic is that it once again is entering into lylo with a bias. EVEN IF I WAS ALIVE WITH TRITON, I wouldn't instantly vote him. I would have that suspicion, yes, but I would evaluate. Just as I did. And as you can see, I had plenty suggesting that I needed to re-evaluate. The triton kill could have been performed by Linxie, but it made more sense coming from you. I needed to evaluate, and was in the process of doing so, when you immediately jumped onto me without hesitation. I am not fond of entering lylo at all, but when I do, there are rules I enforce on myself. Among them is to above all else keep that golden rule in mind, and ask myself, "Why did the night go the way it did?" I came into today realizing that you

could

be scum, and that Linxie

could

be town. I came into today knowing that you could still be town, and Linxie could be scum,

but I wasn't going to let my bias interfere with making an educated decision

. If you had asked for percentages, they wouldn't have been 50/50, no. They probably would have been 55/45 Linxie/enomis. But that's not the confidence level I'd need to make a decision right out of the gate in lylo. In lylo, I need a minimum of 80%. (If I do make a decision off of less than that, it's out of pure sheer desperation, such as being the night of the deadline. ) Yes, I had a townread on you yesterday. But I didn't bring it into today because I second-guessed myself. I re-evaluated my stance, thought about it, and saw a potential scum connection, one growing stronger once you made your vote.

Nope, after you supposedly saw the bread crumb and switched over, whats the situation? Do you see any signs of player moving over? None. How do you suppose Jason would be hammered. YOU DID NOTHING. It is only after the 3rd and 4th again and again plea by mattel that Ucrit quick hammered Jason. And you did not do anything to push the wagon IF other people did not see the claim.

I will be addressing this in Part Two of my case against you.

You go iso yourself and read. Or you could ask linxie. Read through your day1,2 and 3. Were you scumhunting? No. All i see are unconvincing cases/weak.

Like hell they're not scumhunting. On Day One, I was laid back in my scumhunting, but it was there. I put off explaining things thanks to time constraints, but I pointed out the things which made me get the reads I had. I failed to explain why those things gave me my reads, yes. But again, that was out of time constraints, time constraints which were consistent across the site if you cared to check my activity at the time. On Day Two, I continued my scumhunting, and explained my stances in all instances except for one: the switch onto Jason. And Day Three was the strongest scumhunting I've ever done in my career. I'll probably give some links to some recently-completed town games of mine to show it beyond what you've already seen, but the simple fact is, I've never made a better case in the entirety of my mafiascum career than in this game on day three.

You are giving false information. He was not in a weaker position and he is winning you on day 3. Remind me who has 2 votes on him and almost got hammered? You could also ask linxie and he could tell you that your argument are as WEAK as hell. His hammer vote on lucky could be scummy yes, but after looking at his whole day play, you could probably attribute it to his playstyle?

I was in a stronger position. Argue all you'd like that I got more votes than Triton did, but my argument was stronger than his. His was backed by random pieces of nonsense. Mine was backed by logic that I had shown on Day Two, and continued to show throughout Day Three. Like all cases, mine was imperfect. I misremembered details of the game. (For the record, this is something I don't do as scum. As town, I rely on my quite-clearly imperfect memory. I might look things up after the fact, but I generally tend not to look at the facts in advance. As scum, I need my cases to be airtight, so I make sure that there are no factual errors that'll cause me to be accused of misrepping my opponent.) And triton ended up being town.

But my argument was stronger than his. I was in no danger of being lynched. "But you were! You were on the verge of being lynched!" The votes and the intent to hammer might have seemed that way, but that was because I was letting my offense go down. I was kinda burned out, 'cause I felt I had the perfect case. When you make the perfect case against someone, what can you do after that? Not much. That's how I felt at the time, hence the focus on the defense, but if I felt that I was in danger again, I'd be motivated to bounce back, counter triton's case, and show how he had NOTHING against me and I had everything against him. As for triton's hammering--both are from this game. If both are from this game, it's alignment-dependent. If he had a habit of hammering as town (one which I don't remember him having), THEN you could argue playstyle. And now that we know his alignment, YES we can argue playstyle. Off of what I had, you cannot.

Anyway, as you can tell--I'm going to go into a lot more details in parts two and three of my case. Things to look forward to:
* A proper explanation of my stance on triton.
* A proper counter to triton's case (which I never felt was worth countering).
* A detailed journey, describing the events showing why enomis-as-scum would do as he has, and detailing why Mastin-as-scum wouldn't have done what has been done.
* Some meta on me, in lylo as town and lylo as scum. (Short version--this is not the first time I've been in lylo as the town IC. Last time it happened, the scum ALSO immediately voted me and ALSO used points nearly identical to what enomis used. Sadly, the entirety of the game was lost in The Rollback, so you'll have to take my word for the description. Also, as scum, the last time I was in lylo, I rushed in and almost immediately voted for the person I had marked for a mislynch. The tl;dr version is that as town in lylo, I am cautious beyond all other times; as scum in lylo, I hop in immediately and go for the win as soon as possible.)

[mastin2]

Small correction. (This is what I get for not checking the facts before-hand. )

On Day Two, I touched upon my reasoning, but I was still short on time (as checking my site activity would confirm), so I didn't get to go into as much of the details as I had wanted to, similarly to D1. Post 509 is a fine example of this, where I laid the base of the foundation for triton being scum with Jason, but didn't flesh it out 'til D3.

[Linxie]

Just reading a few things and taking a few notes... will post my thoughts soon.

[Linxie]

And please don't use the argument of why would you kill Ucrit. I know you would would not use this argument.

Lets take a look, If you were left with Ucrit/Yourself/ Linxie or me, you would have 50% chance of being dead since it is pretty much Ucrit vs you. And seeing how linxie is so close to hammering you which he didn't, you would expect your chances not being very good in this situation.

Instead, if you were left with Yourself/me/Linxie. You will expect both me and linxie to go, oh shit, did we get our reads wrong and heavily doubt ourselves. Then you can go from there and figure out which way would be the best way to lead you to a win.

I am not using this to support my argument, i am asking you not to use this. thanks.

You COULD kill me, yes, but Linxie thought triton was town and I was scum on D3. (Seriously, Linxie, tell me I'm wrong; I'm not--you thought I was scum, and it was clear from your posts. If I died, would you have reversed your read on triton? I don't think so. Instead, you'd have gone straight to enomis.) That would put you at the disadvantage coming into lylo. But with triton dead? Use triton's arguments against me, JUST LIKE NUL'S ARGUMENTS WERE USED AGAINST LUCKY. And best yet, you've already got Linxie (a less experienced player) likely to back you--Linxie (unlike triton and myself) is more likely to not change opinions come lylo, and thus, it's a reasonably safe bet that Linxie-in-lylo is voting me.

Who would I-as-scum kill? Not triton. He'd be my very last choice. As scum, my first kill choice would be Linxie. ("What? Not enomis?" Yes, not enomis.) I have a little saying: "the only thing predictable about newbies is that they are unpredictable". In lylo, that's a liability to me-as-scum. I can't predict the actions of a newbie, and I have trouble manipulating them. Both from a moral perspective (it goes against my beliefs to manipulate newbies to my advantage), and from a player perspective (it'd be difficult to know for sure if my manipulation would actually work). Triton, I could appeal to his paranoia. Enomis, I could appeal to with logic (because my argument against triton was strong, even if ultimately wrong).

A triton kill makes zero sense from a scum-Mastin perspective (it leaves me with nowhere to go, and no options available), and complete sense from a scum-enomis perspective.

The above argument is pointless because it could have been a set up by Enomis to make Mastin look scum or it could have been set up by Mastin to frame himself and make Enomis look scum.

Nope, after you supposedly saw the bread crumb and switched over, whats the situation? Do you see any signs of player moving over? None. How do you suppose Jason would be hammered. YOU DID NOTHING. It is only after the 3rd and 4th again and again plea by mattel that Ucrit quick hammered Jason. And you did not do anything to push the wagon IF other people did not see the claim.

I will be addressing this in Part Two of my case against you.

I look forward to part two.

A triton kill makes zero sense from a scum-Mastin perspective (it leaves me with nowhere to go, and no options available), and complete sense from a scum-enomis perspective.

You are also scum because you have rushed. As a reasonably-experienced player, you-as-town would not be so sure, so confident, come lylo. Note how Linxie and I both came in with doubts for lylo? There's a damn-good reason for that, because IN NO OTHER TIME IS IT AS VITAL AS IN LYLO than to ask yourself, "Why?" Why am I alive, why are they alive, why did people die when they did, what caused their demise? I had my doubts. As you can tell from the above argument, there's plenty which showed you could be scum, but was I convinced you were? Hell no.

It does and it doesn't, see above statement about a "setup".

As for rushing things, since both you and I expressed we weren't going to vote, it wasn't truly a rush vote. There are two sides to this though. If he were scum he could have fabricated a great story, and the above setup to make you look suspicious would indeed be applicable, or you could have been playing it cool to see what would happen, play the "woe is me" card, then when the vote was right - hammer.

Butyeah, have a request: could you hold off on the hammer for a little while? I was eating breakfast this morning, when suddenly, it all clicked into place, and I realized exactly why enomis would do what he's been doing as scum. Everything from day one to today. (And also, remembered some more reasons why I'm not scum.)

No hammer from me yet. There's both town and scum traits in the both of you, it's just a matter of figuring out who's lying and who isn't.

BAH I hate this. My nose is blocked, I can't smell the bs.

[mastin2]

I opened day two by voting enomis, following through on what I saw as potentially-incriminating evidence.

I was distrustful of mattel and Lucky2u (causing me to drop my enomis suspicion), because they looked like a scumteam jumping on triton's logic, in order to try and mislynch Jason. They could place the blame of the mislynch on triton, while having gotten away with a nice, quick, and simple lynch on town.

Jason's defense to the points against him was similarly solid. In essence: the case against Jason was mostly crap, and Jason's counter-case was fairly well-reasoned. This is why I felt Jason was town, and Lucky/mattel were a scumteam pushing his mislynch.

I touched on this in 443. I never got to explain in detail why it was so, but I think you can actually tell. Mattel had no case against Jason. How could he? He knew Jason was scum via his result, but he couldn't think of any solid logic for it, because there really wasn't any. Jason was outplaying him, and he was becoming increasingly desperate as this became evident. His one true case was "Jason's scum because I'm the cop and got a guilty on him", but he didn't want to say that. (As the day progressed, he slowly but surely said it more and more strongly as desperation grew, but he didn't want to.) In hindsight, this is obvious as a town-player being frustrated that they can't beat the scum-player, but at the time, it looked like the opposite: that mattel was a scum player, unable to beat the town Jason. So close to a "mis"lynch, but unable to obtain it.

Important: At this point, Jason was at L-1. Enomis couldn't vote Jason without hammering him, nor did he have any desire to. But he was clearly considering it:

Hey Jason. Convince me you are town.

...As this demonstrates.

Note that I said I felt enomis's handling of Jason made him doubtful as being scum? That relied on Jason being town. With him being scum, enomis's actions make perfect sense coming from scum.

When I voted Lucky2u, enomis held the chance to hammer Lucky at any time. Now, I

thought

this made him town, but think about it: had enomis hammered Lucky, that quick wagon on him would have looked (justifiably so) scummy-as-hell, going into lylo. IF they managed to figure out mattel was the cop, they could block/kill him, but that'd leave two competent players (myself and triton) alive to have figured out that mattel had a cop guilty on Jason, and enomis's quick-hammer of Lucky was scum-motivated.

Let's say that instead of killing mattel, they take out one of the competent players. Same scenario happens--they've got a cop with a guilty, and at least one competent player who knows how to analyze these situations. Probably me, because triton was against Jason and triton wasn't on Lucky's wagon at the time. In fact, check out enomis setting me up for lylo:

I guess i can leave him today.

He was literally admitting that I was mislynch bait come lylo.

But as I demonstrated eventually on D2, I would have believed mattel over Jason, and instantly singled out enomis as Jason's scumbuddy.

In short, enomis

could

have hammered Lucky, but had he done so at any point, it would have disadvantaged their scumteam significantly--not knowing who the cop was, and going into lylo with at least one capable player who would correctly point out the scum intent behind enomis's hammer.

Essentially, enomis had no choice but to NOT hammer Lucky. Why? Because with him not hammering, the above scenario is averted. He becomes the voice of reason--by not hammering either wagon, he gains the reputation of being a player analyzing the situation carefully to make a conclusion. He also gains Lucky's trust, which can be harvested against him. (And ultimately, WAS used against Lucky! Though that was my fault, admittedly. )

Thus, enomis's lack of hammer on D2 which I had given him towncred for was in fact at

best

null, if not scum-motivated.

Now, keep in mind...it's quite probable that the scum discussed Jason's 'crumbing before-hand. Jason apparently entered D2 'crumbing strongly, as Linxie and enomis both claimed to have seen it. So enomis would have know that eventually, Jason would counterclaim a town cop. enomis set himself up so that he could side with Jason.


And let's skip ahead to the critical point: my reversal in reads. Analyze the position from a scum-Mastin point of view. The ideal scum play as Mastin is

not

to vote Jason, but to keep my vote on Lucky2u. Linxie was going to place his vote back, and triton would have hammered in post 518. Know what would have happened? mattel's stronger crumbs which happened later in the day never would have existed. (Check the chronology yourself. It would have been two posts too late; mattel's strong 'crumb was in 520, and the vote on Lucky which would have hammered was in 518.) The day would have ended with a lynch on Lucky. And then, we could kill or roleblock mattel (whichever we deemed more convenient), and be in an excellent position to win. I would have clearly been on Jason's side, and we'd have an easy lylo win.

Even if we didn't get the lylo win, even if Jason was lynched in lylo, that'd just place us in the exact situation we're in now, just with the chronology shifted a bit. In other words, by not switching to Jason, my chances AT WORST would be identical to what they are now, but could be significantly better than they are. Meaning, with me-as-scum, I would have stayed on Lucky2u. It'd put me in a far-better position overall.

The problem is, I'm

not

scum, so when I saw mattel's crumbs, I couldn't ignore them as I could as scum. I knew they were there, so I had to obey them.

In short: enomis as scum couldn't have played any differently on D2. Mastin as scum could have and would have played differently.

But to address some additional concerns:

-

"How do I know you saw a 'crumb from mattel? How do I know you didn't just switch over for the opportunism?"

That's not something I can BS. The evidence is right there in the suddenness of my switch and my inability to explain it, just as mattel was unable to properly explain Jason being scum. BECAUSE I had nothing, you can tell it was real. If I were scum who switched over for opportunism, I would BS some scumtell, like "Jason said X, which makes him scum". I didn't, though, because I wasn't switching over for the scum opportunism. I was switching over because I caught wind that mattel had a guilty.

I can't really do much more than that. What proof is there that triton saw mattel's 'crumb? Only his flip. Before that, he could have been lying. There's zero way to prove it one way or the other, so you have no choice but to take my word on it, just as you took his word on it. There's no way to prove I saw the 'crumb except for my flip, but unfortunately, my flip in lylo would be a scum win.

-

"Why didn't you push stronger?"

I've touched upon this in the above and elsewhere: how COULD I? The entirety of my reason for thinking Jason was scum was that mattel had a guilty on him. I had nothing else against him. He looked town to me, his posts throughout day one and two resonated fairly well with me. I couldn't lie, now, could I? A lie as town is more devastating to the town than pretty much anything else I could do. If I lied about my reason for thinking Jason was scum, the result would be sabotage of the Jason wagon. Nor could I tell the truth, either. Not without exposing mattel. He ended up exposing himself, yes, but I wanted to prevent that.

-

"Okay, but why didn't you do more than you did?"

I did as much as I could. I continued scumhunting and tried to draw attention away from mattel and onto myself. Know how? Because I treated Jason-as-scum as being an absolute. I started hunting his scumbuddy. Basically, I tried copying mattel's approach, to help mattel to blend in. Note how I was hunting Lucky and hunting triton. Note how I listed mattel as town, along with enomis. Note how I was scumhunting off of that. That's the best I could do.

What would

you

have done? Claiming to be the cop yourself wouldn't be possible, both because votes don't support it and because mattel wouldn't be likely to pick up on the fact that you were gambiting. Invent some BS? Only slows the wagon on Jason down, because BS is BS, be it from town or from scum, and reeks equally as either alignment, deterring people from voting Jason. Flat-out tell mattel to claim? And then, with the doc dead, any chance of mattel getting a second result is lost.

I did everything within my power that I possibly could to lynch Jason while protecting mattel. Tell me I'm wrong, that I could have done more. Because I'd love to know how; I'm just as stumped now as I was at the time.

In short, enomis's point that I did nothing doesn't hold water; I did literally everything I could.

[mastin2]

That's part 2/3, which I think answers just about everything from day two, unless I'm missing anything.

[enomis]

There's a damn-good reason why I-as-scum wouldn't kill triton: in a 1v1 against him, I could win. He's a player roughly equivalent to my skill level, yes, but he legitimately was in a much, much weaker position than I was. Heck, his hammer vote on Lucky was scummy-as-hell. There's a damn-good reason why you-as-scum would kill triton, too: because you didn't want to be trapped in a position where you had townreads on both me and triton. Triton and I had seen the other as being scum on D3, but we're both competent players, who know not to rush lylo, to reassess the situation and analyze if maybe--just maybe--we were both being kept alive to crossvote each other for a loss in lylo. If that happened to you, you'd be screwed. You couldn't risk that, so a Linxie kill was out of the question.

???Your Arguments are BS. You are really using any method you can to pain me scummy is it? The situation now, you me linxie, i had town reads on both you and linxie on day 3 too. And both of you reanalyzing, so? Like in the situation now, you me linxie, you and linxie also need to reanalyse, whats the difference. And in the first situation, i am in a better spot because you two have scum reads on each other and are quite convinced. Of course you would reanalyze but does a night kill choice make all the reads you had up to that point null? No. That's why night kill speculation is WIFOM. And the FACT that you are using this wifom to argue that your reads will change massively is bullshit. Your reads may change after you reevaluate and iso me in that situation, but definitely not largely due to the night kill. Therefore i am still in a better spot with you, me and Trition. And you seem bent and prepared to use every wifom of the night situation? Its like you thought killing Ucrit would allow you to use this wifom argument that you are 0% scum and make me largely scum? Its like you thought a lot over this and prepared this over the night which is what you are accusing me of.

Your second para is also lame. I will just skip that.

Who would I-as-scum kill? Not triton. He'd be my very last choice. As scum, my first kill choice would be Linxie. ("What? Not enomis?" Yes, not enomis.) I have a little saying: "the only thing predictable about newbies is that they are unpredictable". In lylo, that's a liability to me-as-scum. I can't predict the actions of a newbie, and I have trouble manipulating them. Both from a moral perspective (it goes against my beliefs to manipulate newbies to my advantage), and from a player perspective (it'd be difficult to know for sure if my manipulation would actually work). Triton, I could appeal to his paranoia. Enomis, I could appeal to with logic (because my argument against triton was strong, even if ultimately wrong).

Nope your argument is not strong. The votes itself shows that it is weak. Because you know you could not win the argument with me on the topic of why your argument is weak due to the votes, you just discounted the votes and say you believe your argument is strong, one of your strongest argument of your game life <-- appealing to emotions. Using this to say that you can win Trition in argument. Thus, scum mastin would not kill Trition. What kind of bs argument is this?

Hey linxie, see how he is using this to say that this make zero sense from scum mastin and 100% sense from enomis which is fking bs. Hey linxie, How can you think this guy town for using arguments like this. It has a complete lack of logic.

VOTE: You are also scum because you have rushed. As a reasonably-experienced player, you-as-town would not be so sure, so confident, come lylo. Note how Linxie and I both came in with doubts for lylo? There's a damn-good reason for that, because IN NO OTHER TIME IS IT AS VITAL AS IN LYLO than to ask yourself, "Why?" Why am I alive, why are they alive, why did people die when they did, what caused their demise? I had my doubts. As you can tell from the above argument, there's plenty which showed you could be scum, but was I convinced you were? Hell no.

Because i am quite sure you are scum and linxie is town. It is a double read. Therefore, i am quite sure. Of course i am not 100% certain but you could say i have quite an amount of confidence saying you are scum at that time. It is not rushed at all.

On the contrary, Linxie-as-scum would know there would be a tomorrow. Hammering me would end the day prematurely. Letting me live could earn him some cheap towncred, especially from me. I had said that you not-hammering Lucky made you town, so why not Linxie not-hammering me? My point precisely. You-as-town would consider this, and not instantly come to the conclusion it makes him town. You-as-town might have it in your analysis, but you wouldn't show such absolute belief in it.

?????. I have other points why linxie is town also? And together, i believe that linxie is town? I am not showing absolute belief and but i am damn as hell confident of my town read on linxie. You are talking about the less likely possibility. I don't see the point in you arguing this.

And this is another point for enomis-scum. Why newb-town? Why not newb-scum in the same situation? It's certainly a sign of being a newb, but what in this makes it newb-town? Absolutely nothing. The only way for it to instantly be newb-town in enomis's mind is if enomis is scum already.

Because scum would vote. Then if it goes to a no-lynchm, he would just say "i don't know". And besides, if he wants to earn town-cred, why ask such a question that only those who formerly play epic mafia can get the purpose of him asking the question? Therefore, i believe is is newb-town.

More later.

[enomis]

About the Self-voting part:

There is a difference btw the examples you provided and this game.

Fact #1. You did not proclaim it before you lynch Ucrit.
Fact #2. You could say you could not proclaim it because it is lylo which is true.

But the point is that you said it in day 4 in your first post. "I would be self-voting in LYLO" is a fking fake reaction because there was no mention by you at all. I could guess your motivation. You were thinking, I could use this, then if enomis attacked me about it, i could put up examples of me self-voting thus earning town cred. Therefore, the town you wouldn't mention this at all because there was no need to. But the fact that you find the purpose to put this in your re-evaluating thread to "SHOW" how you were so regretful that you were wrong is so FAKE.

The problem with this logic is that it once again is entering into lylo with a bias. EVEN IF I WAS ALIVE WITH TRITON, I wouldn't instantly vote him. I would have that suspicion, yes, but I would evaluate. Just as I did. And as you can see, I had plenty suggesting that I needed to re-evaluate. The triton kill could have been performed by Linxie, but it made more sense coming from you. I needed to evaluate, and was in the process of doing so, when you immediately jumped onto me without hesitation. I am not fond of entering lylo at all, but when I do, there are rules I enforce on myself. Among them is to above all else keep that golden rule in mind, and ask myself, "Why did the night go the way it did?" I came into today realizing that you could be scum, and that Linxie could be town. I came into today knowing that you could still be town, and Linxie could be scum, but I wasn't going to let my bias interfere with making an educated decision. If you had asked for percentages, they wouldn't have been 50/50, no. They probably would have been 55/45 Linxie/enomis. But that's not the confidence level I'd need to make a decision right out of the gate in lylo. In lylo, I need a minimum of 80%. (If I do make a decision off of less than that, it's out of pure sheer desperation, such as being the night of the deadline. ) Yes, I had a townread on you yesterday. But I didn't bring it into today because I second-guessed myself. I re-evaluated my stance, thought about it, and saw a potential scum connection, one growing stronger once you made your vote.

. You could not find an answer to why you had both me and Linxie as strong town read after Ucrit died to the point where you would self-vote if it isn't LYLO. This supports that your reaction was fake. Yes of course you would reevaluate, but the fact is, before you reevaluate, you should have me as strong town and Linxie and null-town. After the evaluation or second-guessing, you could have me as scum or whatever. But that doesn't matter. Because your read before you re-evaluate it the read on day 3 + Flip information on day 4. But the fact that you did not have that read which your logic on day 3 implies that you should have shows a break of logic and that you faked your reaction.Therefore, you are scum.

And you should be sure i was scum after i made my vote and not growing sure. Because linxie have already commented and not hammered you. Therefore, from your POV, you should be sure i was scum and not growing stronger. This is a slip because although you knew town should think i was sure scum, you did not think that way and made a slip typing "growing stronger".

Like hell they're not scumhunting. On Day One, I was laid back in my scumhunting, but it was there. I put off explaining things thanks to time constraints, but I pointed out the things which made me get the reads I had. I failed to explain why those things gave me my reads, yes. But again, that was out of time constraints, time constraints which were consistent across the site if you cared to check my activity at the time. On Day Two, I continued my scumhunting, and explained my stances in all instances except for one: the switch onto Jason. And Day Three was the strongest scumhunting I've ever done in my career. I'll probably give some links to some recently-completed town games of mine to show it beyond what you've already seen, but the simple fact is, I've never made a better case in the entirety of my mafiascum career than in this game on day three.

Yea,yea. Your argument was the strongest of your entire mafiascum career and you were close to being hammered. Argue facts please.

I was in a stronger position. Argue all you'd like that I got more votes than Triton did, but my argument was stronger than his. His was backed by random pieces of nonsense. Mine was backed by logic that I had shown on Day Two, and continued to show throughout Day Three. Like all cases, mine was imperfect. I misremembered details of the game. (For the record, this is something I don't do as scum. As town, I rely on my quite-clearly imperfect memory. I might look things up after the fact, but I generally tend not to look at the facts in advance. As scum, I need my cases to be airtight, so I make sure that there are no factual errors that'll cause me to be accused of misrepping my opponent.) And triton ended up being town.

But my argument was stronger than his. I was in no danger of being lynched. "But you were! You were on the verge of being lynched!" The votes and the intent to hammer might have seemed that way, but that was because I was letting my offense go down. I was kinda burned out, 'cause I felt I had the perfect case. When you make the perfect case against someone, what can you do after that? Not much. That's how I felt at the time, hence the focus on the defense, but if I felt that I was in danger again, I'd be motivated to bounce back, counter triton's case, and show how he had NOTHING against me and I had everything against him. As for triton's hammering--both are from this game. If both are from this game, it's alignment-dependent. If he had a habit of hammering as town (one which I don't remember him having), THEN you could argue playstyle. And now that we know his alignment, YES we can argue playstyle. Off of what I had, you cannot.

The same argument. If is a so perfect case, why didn't people believe you? Why didn't people vote for Ucrit. Because it is a weak argument. And self-meta is the most unreliable shit in the world because when you know about your meta, you could easily fake some of the stuff(not all). Like misremembering stuff is an easy thing to fake to earn town cred like what you are doing now.

You think Ucrit would quick-hammer twice as scum and make himself super scummy according to your argument? You think Ucrit is even more scummy by quick hammering twice and alignment dependent even after your perfect case on Ucrit. But you would reevaluate and think i am scum because of a WIFOM night kill if the situation is me,ucrit and you and therefore, this make complete sense from scum enomis angle. LEGIT BRO. Linxie you seeing this?

Your part 1 and 2 argument will be answered later.

[enomis]

ermmm, i messed up one of my quotes in post 781. Mod could you help me fix it?

Thanks.

[enomis]

And a short answer to your part 2:
Jason and i are basically in the same situation from your POV.

Fact 1: You had us both as your high town read.
Fact 2: Due to certain reasons, You had us both as 100% scum.

Yet, you could iso me and have a 3Parts wall argument. And for Jason, you could not find even a miniscule argument.

NICE EXCUSE

for not pushing the Jason Wagon. Because you didn't want Jason to be lynched because he is your scum buddy but want me to be lynched because you win as scum when i am lynched.

[Linxie]

Hey linxie, see how he is using this to say that this make zero sense from scum mastin and 100% sense from enomis which is fking bs. Hey linxie, How can you think this guy town for using arguments like this. It has a complete lack of logic.

I don't think he's town. He has town traits, but that doesn't mean he's town. The same applies to you

I need all the info before I make my decision here. It is starting to lean in one direction, but I don't want to say anything without having as much info as I can, in order to be sure.

Mastin, I'd like to see part 3 before I comment any further.

[mastin2]

Mastin, I'd like to see part 3 before I comment any further.

Can it wait 'til Monday?

It's going to be long, and now I need to address enomis in addition to that, and a LOT of my time has been eaten up already, and I have to terminate my time on MS.net early on Fridays for personal reasons, and am busy on weekends (in particular,

this

weekend; I have a promise to keep and MS.net is a distraction I cannot afford to have in order to uphold it).

[enomis]

TO PART 1 OF ARGUMENT.

I will just skip the paradigm part.

Yes, Radiant was town, but there was plenty of evidence against Radiant. It had already been laid out by that point to some extent, so the burden of proof laid not on those voting Radiant (who had already said why they felt Radiant was scum), but on enomis who had a mysterious unexplained townread on Radiant. Going back to then, enomis admitted he had only skimmed--what made Radiant so strongly town to him? There was nothing. Yes, ultimately, Radiant was town, but how could a town-enomis have gotten such a strong townread on Radiant from just a skim, when pretty much everyone else had a scumread on Radiant?

His ISO seemed genuine. You see the playstyle of Radiant. Which NEWB-scum would just blatantly outright say they are going to sit-back and relax because they are afraid to be lynched if they talk too much. I have a feeling that Radiant don't have the guts to do this as scum. Thats why i wanted to meta him to confirm if he has the guts to FURTHER confirm my town read and not use it as a base of my town read. And her general Iso don't really have contradictions.

On the contrary:

Sorry. The case when I thought it up was stronger than this. (This case is mostly circumstantial evidence, regrettably.) There were more points than this, but I currently can't remember them. I'll post any that I think of.

Another excuse for leaving your vote on Radiant without a strong reason.

And the rest of the argument about interaction don't even warrant me to argue. You could pick up any two interactions btw two person and say their interaction is scum vs scum.(either bussing and shit or Buddying). This can be used as a point for yourself when one decide who is scum but is not a point to argue about. If i wanted, i could flashed out why you and Jason could be scum buddies due to your interaction but i don't because it's fking weak argument.

[Linxie]

Mastin, I'd like to see part 3 before I comment any further.

Can it wait 'til Monday?

It's going to be long, and now I need to address enomis in addition to that, and a LOT of my time has been eaten up already, and I have to terminate my time on MS.net early on Fridays for personal reasons, and am busy on weekends (in particular,

this

weekend; I have a promise to keep and MS.net is a distraction I cannot afford to have in order to uphold it).

It can I don't plan on being very active over the weekend... good weather = plenty photo opportunities which I need to take advantage off during winter

So Semi V/LA this weekend. Will more than likely only be active during the evening.

[enomis]

>.<. I guess i will just concentrate on my other mafiascum games.

[enomis]

~

[enomis]

Come on people. Its morning. Wake up.

[Linxie]

I'm here, just waiting for Mastin's post before I vote.

[Linxie]

Mastin please post by tonight, otherwise I am going to vote. I feel ready to vote but have been waiting for your last post just to confirm my feelings.

[mastin2]

I'm here, it's just that it's taking me longer to type than I anticipated.

When I said I had a

lot

, I meant I had a

lot

. It's going to be long by necessity.

[Linxie]

You writing a book or what? hehe

[enomis]

LOL. You type so long? I usually just look and type everything in one sitting then post.

[mastin2]

You writing a book or what? hehe

Only a novella.

But seriously, still working on it, yet have to ask:

You haven't already made up your mind, have you?

That is, it's not a situation where I'll post it, you'll read/skim it, go, "Oh, that's nice", and type "Vote: Mastin", are you?

If you are, I'd rather not bother finishing the wall; it's a lot of effort to be wasted if you're 90+% sure it's me, since as skilled a debater I am, my wall's likely not the type to cause a total reversal in a read.

[Linxie]

My minds about 80% made up. I'll definitely read it and take into consideration what is said.

[enomis]

I just realised i never did get to part 2 of mastin argument. I will get into them tomorrow.

Good Night.