Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Ztife]

You guys are silly.

9 players alive, 4 replacements and 1 is replacing
4 players dead, 2 are PRs dead

We have potentially 5 players with inconsistant playstyles (before/after replacing) and 1 of the remaining is likely town PR.
You guys need to realise what the fuck is happening.

Day 1.
Baezu claimed Odd Cop. If she is lying it means she's scum.
So assuming Baezu spoke the truth, it means mafia has RB and it makes perfect sense to RB Baezu. This render her useless and she would have to survive at least 2 lynches, if she miss scum on N3 she has yet to survive another 2 lynches. That's pretty farfetched.
Nachomom got NKed. This indicates that scum thinks nachomom is the biggest threat or he was a perfect isolation. Nobody even build anything on this as far as I recall.

Day 2.
Elyze claims Miller 1x doc/tracker/vig. This role is swingy (and her claim was in a dubious timing)
From PV's perspective, these claims makes sense. Tracking/miller can backfire with another 2 town PR (which also supports the fact that there is a scum RB). Therefore it is likely that PV has also some form of limitation, and his claim completes the whole set of town PR claims. Thus I predicted x-shot doc 976. Also, it makes perfect sense for BG to claim doc, why would you claim your limitations fully? *cough baezu cough*

Also, how is PV's claim less believable compared to Baezu or Elyze? Because IMHO, you have to believe part of their claims if you "suspect" its not possible to have a full doc, so what makes pv's claim less believable?

I'll do a PV wagon analysis on a later time.

Now, a mass claim is fucking stupid. Everybody will claim VT. Slaandar's mechanics for the game is such. What makes a mass claim today better than yesterday? Actually,

Lets just massclaim that is the solution and saves a lot of hassle.

RD
PV
Ztife
Cher
Sunny
Nacho
Stranger
Grim
Me

Massclaim allows us to find out what is going on NOW and that is important. Do not try to be clever and claim VT as a PR, we will be confirm towning Elyse/Baezu if there are not enough PR claims so do NOT fakeclaim as town. Doing so is hugely detrimental to the town, assumptions will be made based on what is claimed, by faking all you do is ensure those assumptions are wrong.

And you lynched our PR right after he claimed. In fact your shit about his "fakeclaim" is so crap I don't even wanna comment on it.

In fact,

I'm refusing to claim

, and I challenge you to find anyone that will claim PR now. If we had anything else to counter claim there was plenty of chance to do it. Our town PRs claims don't make sense to you. But a mass claim would. What kind of logic is that? Oh wait, scum/slandaar logic.

The only reason im still holding my vote is because i'm waiting for RD's replacement and there's a need to hear more from the rest.


@Shamrock

One of the trends that bothers me most about Ztife's ISO is that she seems to comment very heavily/strongly on objective things and either ignore or be wishy-washy on more subjective things. What do I mean by this?

Is being scummy considered objective or subjective? Is commenting being on a town flip's wagon considered objective? What are the subjective things that you think I should be more interested in? Are you refering to WIFOM as "subjective"?

Fix your #1038 quotes and maybe I'll comment better on it. Future's wagon is

NULL

because its early game and there's too little posts. The replacement sunny's "claim" was

crap

but it was more amusing to see how people like grim bought that shit. I didn't even find that slot scummy to begin with. BP replaced out thus dead read.

PV's claim and my reply was 20 mins difference, I was already typing my post when he claimed and I needed time to think about it, and I posted my conclusion another 30 mins later. Wherever did you read it from that grim "magically made it make sense" to me? Heck, the basis of my belief on PV's claim and grim's is not even similiar.

Wishy washy? I actually give strong reads when they come by. I also believe in pressure voting for consistency and the fact that I don't have confident reads all the time.

Actually, the above makes no sense because the scum would target him regardless.

Taking the RB considerations aside, PV would likely die on N2 after claim if he didnt get lynched. Claiming doc forces scum to aim him. Claiming BG forces him to need to be able to select the same target as scum, and there were 2 choices (elyze and baezu)

Shamrock is leaning town with his posts.
Since you are on the topic of comparing predecessors to replacers, could you comment why you think nachopop would play your role the way he did (should you decide to claim) or just comment on his overall playstyle?

[Shamrock]

Ztife, what are your scumreads and why?

[Slandaar]

OK Good Ztife claimed VT

RD/Replacement next.

[Ztife]

Ztife, what are your scumreads and why?

In no order
Town/townish - Sham, RD, Baezu
Summish - Sunny/grim strikes me as a probable scum team, which is the only reason why I think both could be scum ATM. Slandaar leans scum for his plays and N1 NK, but I always found it hard to understand his logic which could make him seem scummier than he actually is.

The rest is nullish. I generally have a really hard time with replacements because I can't seem to commit myself to a common read for the slots, the former and latter players are distinct and different I can't give a good read especially when they dont tally up the same way (eg. passive and aggressive players)

[Ztife]

OK Good Ztife claimed VT

RD/Replacement next.

That's false. I didn't claim.

[Shamrock]

Sunny/grim strikes me as a probable scum team, which is the only reason why I think both could be scum ATM.

What does this mean?

[Slandaar]

And you lynched our PR right after he claimed. In fact your shit about his "fakeclaim" is so crap I don't even wanna comment on it.

He fakeclaimed, I clearly tell people not to fakeclaim the lynch was actually correct. Nice stance though.

Why did it make sense Elyse has a doc shot and PV was claiming doc Ztife?

[Ztife]

Why did it make sense Elyse has a doc shot and PV was claiming doc Ztife?

2 factors;
1. Why would it be PV that fake claimed and not elyze?
2. What is "making sense" in setup speculation?

Why can't we have 2 "doc shots"? Both BG and Docs are essentially protect roles, would it have made any significant difference to the credibility of his claim in your eyes?

Setup speculations are never useful to pinpoint any scum, but useful to give town an idea of the overall night actions and give the town PR's better direction on how to use their powers. But IMHO we're at a point where we can't depend on our town powers anymore. That's why a mass claim now is useless.

Also its my personal opinion that the 3 PRs we have are actually very weak for town, I believe baezu or elyze might not have fully claimed about their powers or scum has some sort of limitation. Regardless, its possibly useless info now.

Sunny/grim strikes me as a probable scum team, which is the only reason why I think both could be scum ATM.

What does this mean?

This means that I think sunny/grim are a scum team mostly because of the way they interact. I remember a wall or 2 on future's wagon that was kickstarted by grim, and then it died down because of some crap "claim" that sunny made. The way grim could draw that much shit from future's "RVS-ish" posting and find it scummy and YET

When I first joined I got a message from ac1983 fan saying that I am a townsperson but that came into the game with powers. I wasn't told what the powers are, but I imagine there are some clues somewhere in the thread. I'm going to try to read through as quickly as possible so that I can let you know if I find anything, but can someone please take their vote off of me!

LOL

UNVOTE:

I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.

Its pretty amusing.

In fact, where has grim gone to? For the moment I'm happy to put this here and see what he has to say.

Unvote, Vote: Grim

[Shamrock]

So what you're telling me is that your two strongest scumreads on Day 3 are based on associational tells that happened on Day 1 between unflipped players?

Seriously?

[Grimgroove]

In fact, where has grim gone to?

What the fuck?
SunnyDays is conftown. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.

[Miss Stranger]

@Mod: I request to be replaced.

I'm sorry, guys, there's some personal problems going on and I really can't concentrate on Mafia any more, I'm probably going off-site for a couple weeks or more, because this is just serious and preoccupying my mind.

Good luck and sorry once again!

[Slandaar]

I think we can forgive you for abandoning us Stranger.

2 factors;
1. Why would it be PV that fake claimed and not elyze?

Uh because it WAS PV and not Elyse?

What don't you get about that? How is this a factor in anything?
You are trying to suggest you don't understand why it was PV not Elyse FINE, but the fact it that it WAS that way round. I looked at the claims and worked it out, PV fakeclaimed which should normally mean scum.

Why can't we have 2 "doc shots"? Both BG and Docs are essentially protect roles, would it have made any significant difference to the credibility of his claim in your eyes?

Yes. Having 2 docs is just not believable, a BG is a much weaker protection role.

[Ztife]

So what you're telling me is that your two strongest scumreads on Day 3 are based on associational tells that happened on Day 1 between unflipped players?

Seriously?

ATM, yes. Flips of PR and nacho which I've already touched on, and remaining players with now possibly even more replacements.

What the fuck?
SunnyDays is conftown. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.

Do you understand what conftown means?

@Slandaar
Get over your own ego. It worked out? You help lynched a town PR and possibly caused another to die, that's working out?
I said PV was town PR, you believed he was scum. I am right, you are wrong. End of story. Im really not going into this "weaker protection role and whatever is more believable" shit.

What we need now is to prod and pressure the replacements to post more, as well as linking up with their predecessors. Mass claiming is not going to do anything. What are you going to do after everybody claimed VT? You're back to start of D3. Not to mention we are still waiting for RD and Miss Stranger's replacement now.

[Slandaar]

OK Ztife he who suggests a full doc + (variation of) 1shot doc in a mini normal seems sensible

Go and find me a mini normal with such a setup.

[Ztife]

OK Ztife he who suggests a full doc + (variation of) 1shot doc in a mini normal seems sensible

Go and find me a mini normal with such a setup.

Even if I did that, what's the point of it?

[Grimgroove]

Sorry to see you go Miss Stranger! Hope all will be well.

What the fuck?
SunnyDays is conftown. If you can't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.

Do you understand what conftown means?

Conftown, obvtown, same shmifference. SunnyDays townslipped hard.

I find you 1057 very bad. Your reasons to vote me are petty and I really did not like the allusion to me trying to slip under the radar by asking "where I've gone to".

I do have a notification in this regard, which will hopefully not prove to be a problem:

@Mod

: I'll be V/LA starting from tomorrow Tuesday the 30th until Thursday, possibly Friday the 9th of August, so a bit more than a week. Normally I'll have some internet access during this time, but no guarantee. I'm hoping not having to be replaced, for myself but also because this game already had to face enough problems in this regard, but if my prolonged possible absense is a problem I apologize in advance and will face force-replacement, no questions asked.


Very tempted to vote Ztife actually. Will be back later today to see if stuff has evolved, but I'd like to put my vote out at least somewhere before going on V/LA.

[Slandaar]

Even if I did that, what's the point of it?

To show me what you are saying has merit and isn't just made up.

If you wish to take the high ground suggesting you were right about PV because of logic and not just luck (or you are scum) then show me a setup with both a full doc and a 1shot doc (or variation of)

[Slandaar]

The fact you didn't immediately I assume means you havn't been in one such setup so this may take you some time (WARNING: I very highly doubt one exists)

[ac1983fan]

Vote Count

Ztife (1) - Miss Stranger
Grimgroove (1) - Ztife

Not Voting (7) - Slandaar, Grimgroove, Shamrock, Baezu, Red Dragon, Lucky2u, SunnyDays

No deadline at the moment...since we now need two replacements.

[Ztife]

Even if I did that, what's the point of it?

To show me what you are saying has merit and isn't just made up.

If you wish to take the high ground suggesting you were right about PV because of logic and not just luck (or you are scum) then show me a setup with both a full doc and a 1shot doc (or variation of)

I haven seen one and I'm too lazy to find one. Even if one doesn't exist it doesn't mean it can't happen. There's no logic to setup speculation, and getting into this much detail is stupid. I don't agree with your train of thought, and I don't see the reason to prove anything. I just that think that x-shot cop, joat and odd cop is possible. It just makes balance sense to me. There's no rocket science logic to it.

Who said there can't be 2 docs in a game? Who set the rules? Who told you that there couldn't be 2 doctor abilities in one game? Why not you show me proof that this setup is impossible and has never ever happened before?
How would x-shot doc/full doc/BG differ in terms of setup possibility if you're logic is that "there can't be 2 protect abilities in the game"? How about you give me a wall of text regarding how setups should be made and balance and stuff? Maybe we could also quote and study a couple of games and make good research material while the rest of the players sit around and lurk.

Also, why would I be right about PV if I were scum? What good would it have done for me to unvote him?

I wasn't very confident of elyze and baezu's claim, but pv's claim made them alot stronger. There was also alot of players who haven post substantial stuff yet with all the claims going on. Elyze claimed JOAT for no apparent reason at 2 votes.

Your reasoning of PV's fake claim depended highly on elyze's claim, according to your logic. This means that your confidence in PV being scum lies in your confidence in elyze being JOAT. How did you choose elyze over PV? How did you get that much confidence on elyze's claim AKA pv's fake claim? How do you explain 2 protection roles then?

This debate should have taken place D2. Town gets wrong reads. Town mislynches. Town makes mistakes. You made one. Get over your ego please. If you just wanna prove that you are "right" about PV's fake claim well congrats, you're right. Only reason why i would even bother replying is because nobody else in this game seems to wanna say anything, and you constantly draw the attention away from everybody else to your mass claiming and this.

[ac1983fan]

ChannelDelibird replaces Red Dragon effective immediately.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hello! I'll get read up and see what needs lynchin'.

[Slandaar]

I haven seen one and I'm too lazy to find one. Even if one doesn't exist it doesn't mean it can't happen. There's no logic to setup speculation, and getting into this much detail is stupid. I don't agree with your train of thought, and I don't see the reason to prove anything. I just that think that x-shot cop, joat and odd cop is possible. It just makes balance sense to me. There's no rocket science logic to it.

OK here is some logic for you, if someone on day 1 claims doc, and someone else is a doc and counterclaims, are they both town or one is scum?

One is scum, clearly.

So, in this situation we have 1shot doc being counterclaimed and that is what it was by a full doc.

The obvious reason you do not put 2 docs in a game is because town will most likely lynch one when there is the claim/cc and then after that the other is nked netting a total loss to the town because the setup was terrible.

Why not you show me proof that this setup is impossible and has never ever happened before?

Sure

Proof this setup never happened before

Here are all the completed games on this site of mini normals, none have a full doc and then a second variation of a doc.

How would x-shot doc/full doc/BG differ in terms of setup possibility if you're logic is that "there can't be 2 protect abilities in the game"?

That is not what I said, I said there isn't 2 docs not 2 protect roles.

How about you give me a wall of text regarding how setups should be made and balance and stuff? Maybe we could also quote and study a couple of games and make good research material while the rest of the players sit around and lurk.

Also, why would I be right about PV if I were scum? What good would it have done for me to unvote him?

Because as scum you would know hes town and thus assume hes telling the truth. Pretty obvious.

You unvote because you assumed everyone else would as it seems the 'protown' thing to do.

Your reasoning of PV's fake claim depended highly on elyze's claim, according to your logic. This means that your confidence in PV being scum lies in your confidence in elyze being JOAT. How did you choose elyze over PV? How did you get that much confidence on elyze's claim AKA pv's fake claim? How do you explain 2 protection roles then?

Read my posts maybe?

This debate should have taken place D2. Town gets wrong reads. Town mislynches. Town makes mistakes. You made one. Get over your ego please. If you just wanna prove that you are "right" about PV's fake claim well congrats, you're right. Only reason why i would even bother replying is because nobody else in this game seems to wanna say anything, and you constantly draw the attention away from everybody else to your mass claiming and this.

I have been wrong about a fair few things this game, but that is something I was not wrong about I am simply stating fact. The point is you were wrong. And thus even when PV flips town you are the one who needs to explain your logic. There is no high ground for you to take on this matter.

[Baezu]

I know it has been said but that is a legitimately good case.

The case on Ztife? Is that the case to which you are referring?

[Baezu]

I am very tempted to vote Ztife as well. Alas, waiting for RD replacement...