Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[Malakittens]

Vote Count 1.02

With 9 alive it's 5 votes to lynch.

Voting for:

*DaughterofLuthien - Sakura Hana [1]
*Gale -
*Mr_Blonde -
*Putin -
*burn_209 - Thor665 [1]
*Antagon -
*talah -
*Sakura Hana -
*Thor665 - DaughterofLuthien [1]

Not voting: Gale, Mr_Blonde, Putin, Antagon, talah, burn_209 [6]

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-11-05 16:00:00)

[DaughterofLuthien]

Can't help but notice that you've been asking a lot of questions but not giving very many answers.

With all due respect - the questions I've been asked are...only one, and it was kind of silly, and I asked the return question to you to try to understand where you were even coming from.

I'd be willing to believe that your vote on me was completely random, but I'm a little puzzled as to why you won't just come out and say that.

Why should I need to? At the time I voted I was literally the first vote and the reason I offered was because 'you are a girl'
Do I need to now clarify that this vote had no ulterior motives to it?
I *do* think you need to defend basically suggesting I did - I'm curious where you got that thought.

Also, I'd like to hear some of you reasoning behind thinking Burn is lynchable as well.

He has indicated scumtells without moving his random vote.
If he is serious about those scumtells, then he has every reason to move his vote.
If he is not, then I wonder why he's slinging mud without being willing to back it up.
Either way i am pretty happy with the idea of voting him.

What's your read on him and his odd defense of your slot?

Actually, at the time you posted this, you had really been asked two questions: I asked why you picked me for RVS and Burn asked (in a roundabout way, yes, but it was obvious he wanted to know) why you thought he was scummy, and I asked why you though. Even if mine was a stupid question, you still chose to ignore it. And you called Burn out for asking in a roundabout way, but didn't bother answering the question. Anyway, it's not so much the specifics of the questions, but the fact that you had been - and still are, to some extent - asking for clarifications and motives from everyone, then turning and tossing around accusations without offering any explanations of your own. I get not sharing reads with the other players right away, but once you say you think someone is scummy, I don't get not sharing your reasons for it.

There still 13 days left before the day is over. Even if Burn thinks that someone seems a little scummy, unless something changes with how the votes stand he has plenty of time to watch them and come to a more definite decision. He hasn't even said who he thinks is scummy, so I'm not even you can call that mudslinging. It's at best flicking a little dirt into the air.

As for my read on him, he's seemed fairly reasonable and logical so far, though he did get a little defensive after switched your vote to him. Though you haven't seemed so level-headed yourself, so I'm not gonna make any definite reads at this point, I don't think, not until I'm more sure. I tend to prefer the watch-and-wait method.

[DaughterofLuthien]

Your vote just lost all meaning from the momment you say your vote isnt because you think they are scum nor want them lynched and it's for mere pressure.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the point of RVS, isn't it?

[Sakura Hana]

Half-Yes, but the thing is that you say it's just for pressure, then it loses it's effect, since your intended target wont react to the pressure like they should.

[Thor665]

how many times and different ways do it have to answer your question dude? lol is that your strategy to have someone repeat themselves so many times that they just bash their face into the monitor and give up? lol

Maybe - maybe you could quote where you did answer it just to show how silly I'm being?

Like I seriously dont know how or in what way I can answer your question in which you understand i guess.

Well, to re-state it again, since I don't think you have answered it;

1. You understand that reads are allowed to change.
2. You understand that to pressure someone you have to act like a vote or opinion is willing to go all the way to lynch.
3. You have an issue with me saying I'd be willing to lynch you because it's CrAzY to do so.

I do not feel like 1-2 gel with 3.
I have asked you to explain how it does.
If you can answer this by quoting a previous post of yours, please do so and I'll apologize.
Until then I plan to think you're dodging.

Like you asking how many town reads you were supposed to have on Page 2. You are totally not understanding what I am saying and Im starting to think that it is on purpose. Im not willing to lynch anyone on page 2 because I dont have enough info and you are willing to lynch everyone on page 2 because you dont have enough info. That, right there, is the core of our debate and should answer any questions you may have.

Except why you think my playstyle deserves to be questioned specifically insomuch as I express willingness to lynch you but not when I did so for Daughter girl.

And you can determine that from the one maybe two posts I had?

Yes.
I even explained why.

Well you just reaffirmed my whole argument about you being careless and jumping the gun because whether it is me or anyone else in the game you shouldn't be down to lynch someone two posts into the game and that has been my point all along. I literally dont know how to put this to you any other way

Quoting the specific question I ask, and replying to each point in turn seems like a good way to go about it.

Actually, at the time you posted this, you had really been asked two questions: I asked why you picked me for RVS and Burn asked (in a roundabout way, yes, but it was obvious he wanted to know) why you thought he was scummy, and I asked why you though. Even if mine was a stupid question, you still chose to ignore it. And you called Burn out for asking in a roundabout way, but didn't bother answering the question.

There's a difference between not answering a question and 'not addressing it'
My opinion about his question was quite clear. I agreed I didn't do so for yours right away, but I was intentionaly not going to answer it and hope it would go away because it wasn't worth answering.
Even now that you have my answer you have done...wait for it...nothing with the answer. In effect, proving my point I think, yes? There was literally no way I could answer that question short of going 'well uh...oh, wait, I'm bad at being scum!' that could have given you anything to work with. Even now we're still debating it and you've literally drawn nothing from the interaction.

Anyway, it's not so much the specifics of the questions, but the fact that you had been - and still are, to some extent - asking for clarifications and motives from everyone, then turning and tossing around accusations without offering any explanations of your own.

Me asking questions has little to do with my answers to questions.
I have also answered all the questions I have been asked at this point, so the last part is pretty weak even if you wanted to go with the theory that I was trying to hide my motivations. What, my goal was to specifically hide them by pointing out that it was silly that he hadn't asked a question clearly, or that you were asking the motivation for a vote wherein I explained the motivation when I made the vote? I mean...seriously?

I get not sharing reads with the other players right away, but once you say you think someone is scummy, I don't get not sharing your reasons for it.

You will.

There still 13 days left before the day is over. Even if Burn thinks that someone seems a little scummy, unless something changes with how the votes stand he has plenty of time to watch them and come to a more definite decision. He hasn't even said who he thinks is scummy, so I'm not even you can call that mudslinging. It's at best flicking a little dirt into the air.

If you agree he's leveling accusations without being willing to stand behind them...which is literally what you said, then you should recognize that my point has merit. Yes, he has flung mud or flicked dirt without calling people scummy. You are fine with that, and I am not, but don't try to tell me it isn't happening when you are blatantly describing it. Seriously, where are you going with this?

As for my read on him, he's seemed fairly reasonable and logical so far, though he did get a little defensive after switched your vote to him. Though you haven't seemed so level-headed yourself, so I'm not gonna make any definite reads at this point, I don't think, not until I'm more sure. I tend to prefer the watch-and-wait method.

I hate the watch and wait method because it suggests lack of willingness to do work and help town.
Why do you think I look non-level in the cranium area?
Try to be specific if you can. It'll be almost as sexy as my beard.

[talah]

Whoa, that's some nice levels of posting.

I'll be back after work to check things out properly (have been skimming) but for now I'm not so interested in voting either of Thor or burn on the vibe of their back and forth.*

Sakura - what made you sheep Thor's vote, way back when? I'm wondering if it was because Thor has a tendency to attack those who don't wagon early. So maybe you were avoiding drawing attention to yourself.

*subject to actually reading. all rights reserved.

(back in a few hours!)

[Sakura Hana]

Sakura - what made you sheep Thor's vote, way back when?

I said that on that same post, because of Majiffy's flowchart and because Thor's a very strong player, tho that doesn't mean I'll blindly sheep him tho, but during the course of the game I'll see whether i agree with him or not, and so far I'm liking my vote where it is, and I also like burn for another scumread.

[Mr_Blonde]

Checking in.

I agree that Mr. Blonde was the best character in the Reservoir Dogs. What a fucking psycho...

I'm confused at how to work the multi-quote option on this site. Someone explain?

For now VOTE: Burn

Seems overly defensive. I don't see how he expected me to take his vote in the RVS other than that: a random vote. By explaining it was for pressure just seems like over justification to me.

[burn_209]

Thor i have quoted every single question in all of your posts and answered them to the best of my ability. You may not of understood them or they may not of been the answers that you seek but to say that I didnt answer them is wrong.

@Blonde it was to see what your reaction would have been if you had even given a reaction. It was just getting the ball rolling and I had to give a justification for it to prove a point to thor. Thats really all it was dude haha

[Sakura Hana]

it was to see what your reaction would have been if you had even given a reaction

No duh.

On a more serious note tho, what do you think of her vote, since she was who you were voting before?

[burn_209]

it was to see what your reaction would have been if you had even given a reaction

No duh.

On a more serious note tho, what do you think of her vote, since she was who you were voting before?

Wait who?

[Antagon]

I'm confused at how to work the multi-quote option on this site. Someone explain?

Clicking the quote button allows you to copy that person's post in the preview screen, but it only allows you to quote one post at a time. Using the multi-quote option allows you to copy multiple posts without having to copy and paste each one.
If I couldn't explain it correctly, preview some multi-quoted posts for yourself.

And why aren't you trying to make us think otherwise?

Because we're still in random voting and nobody has any information on anybody. The only thing you know about me is that I messed up a post - I've already given my side of the story and if you choose not to believe me, that's fine. Right now I'm not too worried about two people voting for me.

Also, if I was trying really hard to prove my innocence this early in the game,

wouldn't that be more of an indicator that I

was

scum than otherwise?

Why did you decide to vote for me instead of picking someone else to randomly scope out?

@burn - Yeah, pretty sure computers can mess up. Sorry.

Which is why I have my first town read of the game. I think you just didnt see it or didnt read the post which is shit that i do all the time. How you reacted is what I was really looking after.

I'm running on so little sleep right now, but I don't like burn's early town read. I'm pretty sure that the reasons why have been already hashed out by Thor, but I don't really think that defending or not defending yourself in RVS is alignment-indicative, especially since the whole point of RVS to create wagons to look and analyze people's reactions.
VOTE: burn_209

[burn_209]

As I said earlier its a town read as in I think that she hadled the situation the way a townie would. To me everyone starts as 50/50 town scum. After how she handled the situation it shifted to 52/48 town scum. Its just a small if not tiny thing and nothing I would bang the table over.

[Gale]

Isn't there an acronym for voting for someone just because they voted for you?

And why would someone take it offensively anyway, it's just the RVS.

So, I'll sheep.

VOTE: Vote: DaughterofLuthien

[Gale]

EBYOP

I hadn't realized there were an additional 2 pages of discussion.. ^^; Oops..

In light of new conversation, UNVOTE: DaughterofLuthien

VOTE: Burn

[Gale]

EBWOP... again

I'm sorry you all ^^; I didn't realize I was putting him at an L-1 and I think that's bad or something. You can probably see the newbie dripping off me.

UNVOTE: Burn

[talah]

So...are you saying this is an incredibly weak town read you just voiced?
I mean, you're the one who announced it as a town read, all I'm trying to do is understand your logic - I currently understand your answer to be 'She seemed calm in addressing a non-aggressive attack while under minimal pressure, I take that level of calmness as some percent likely to be more common with town than scum'
Do I have that right?
And if so - how strong of a read is it, and should I even bother paying attention? And if it is so small, why did you feel the need to announce it?

Your summary of the situation appears to be right, and I think the town answer to the last line based on burns' previous posts would have been 'because it's what I thought, dammit!'

..which is what he subsequently goes on to say:

It is a very weak town read and it could very well be wrong. I'm not saying I think she is town, I'm saying that she did something that I think a townie would do. Two different things. As for if you should pay attention to it that is your call. Im an active person in mafia. I announce everything. If I post it I can remember it later when I look through the thread. It shows me what I was thinking at the time and why I was. Think of it as a reference

And which I think is fine. The entire post has more info than that and feels quite brain-to-paper, so I'm leaning burns town for now. Otherwise I'm wondering what you were getting at with that particular question, Thor [optional question mark here].

I quite like Daughter's Post 51 for a natural response to the situation, too.

---

Sakura - what made you sheep Thor's vote, way back when?

I said that on that same post, because of Majiffy's flowchart and because Thor's a very strong player, tho that doesn't mean I'll blindly sheep him tho, but during the course of the game I'll see whether i agree with him or not, and so far I'm liking my vote where it is, and I also like burn for another scumread.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

If you were sheeping Thor for legit reasons and now have a scumread on burns, why are you still voting Daughter, and more importantly, what do you think about Blonde and Antagon's votes on burns - which actually put him at L-2? Do you think Thor's arguments for burns-scum were remarkably convincing? And if so which parts do you agree with, or not completely align with?

And the vote's also for pressure.

(/side-note: it's my opinion that any votes from and including L-2 should be announced - that means there are only two more votes required before a player is lynched. Think of it as "Lynch minus two votes". Generally a player under threat of lynch is given an opportunity to claim at L-1 with an "intent to hammer" stated)

ed:

@Sakura

- please comment on Gale's vote as well.

@Gale

- what parts of the new discussion make you think burns is scum?

[Thor665]

I'm confused at how to work the multi-quote option on this site. Someone explain?

There are two buttons for quoting in the upper right of every post.
One says quote - and will give you a quote of just that post.

The other says Q+ if you click it then it will change to Q-. When you click Q+ what you are doing is adding the post to your multi-quote, and if you click on a few and then scroll down and hit the 'Reply' button on the bottom of the screen you will get multi-quotes in your reply text box.

Make sense?

Thor i have quoted every single question in all of your posts and answered them to the best of my ability. You may not of understood them or they may not of been the answers that you seek but to say that I didnt answer them is wrong.

1. Since I asked you questions in my last post that you did not quote and answer, I am left feeling like this is a lie.

2. I also don't see you providing me a quote of your supposedly already answered question that I am asking - which, again, makes this feel like a lie and a dodge.

I'm really pretty happy-happy with my vote on you.
Think you can find me that quote now?

I'm sorry you all ^^; I didn't realize I was putting him at an L-1 and I think that's bad or something. You can probably see the newbie dripping off me.

Why is L-1 bad if you think Burn is scum?
What should we do instead of putting him to L-1, since you unvoted but then did nothing with your unvote?

Your summary of the situation appears to be right, and I think the town answer to the last line based on burns' previous posts would have been 'because it's what I thought, Smurfit!'
[snip]
And which I think is fine. The entire post has more info than that and feels quite brain-to-paper, so I'm leaning burns town for now. Otherwise I'm wondering what you were getting at with that particular question, Thor [optional question mark here].

Oh, snap, sarcasm! This will be the start of a beautiful friendship...or I will out sarcasm you and there will be an eternal divide. 50/50 it seems.

Okay, but...I'm actually confused as to your inability to see where I was getting at considering you think his 'brain to paper' reaction is all swell (and, indeed, that's the crux of his defense) Allow me to spell it out even more slowly.

1. He understands that reads can change and are not set in stone.
2. He understands that pressure reads exist.
3. He understands that pressuring people is a pro-town thing.
4. He used an answer that you liked that can be summed up as "because it's what I thought, so I shared it with people!"
5. He had no issue with my pressure on Daughter

and...

He thought it was sloppy and bad of me to announce that I'd be willing to lynch him.


Do you notice the disconnect now?
As in - he is fine with pressure and off-the-cuff quick comments regardless of strength of read. But he is worried that I am playing bad when I say I have a scumread on him. Not that my read is wrong, he doesn't even ask me the reasons for my read except in a roundabout way. But he suggests my PLAY is bad. Even though my play appears to be in line with his understanding of how the game is played.

That made me curious.
Why do you think it is so kosher?

[Sakura Hana]

Wait who?

Blonde, for some reason i called him a she... oops?

I think that she hadled the situation the way a townie would

And how would scum handle the situation?

To me everyone starts as 50/50 town scum.

So according to you there's a 50% chance of everyone flipping scum with no info, when there's actually like... 25% chance (If you include yourself as town)

After how she handled the situation it shifted to 52/48 town scum.

48% chance of flipping scum is pretty damn worth voting over, anything over 35% is imo when everyone has such a low information, because... such votes will lead to more information, only reason you wouldn't be voting someone with 48% chance of flipping scum is because you have someone higher, so I'm guessing you dont have anyone with a higher chance?

Isn't there an acronym for voting for someone just because they voted for you?

It's called OMGUS (Oh my god you suck

for voting me

)

it's just the RVS.

FoS: Gale

I quite like Daughter's Post 51 for a natural response to the situation, too.

I disagree, it looked pretty fake to me

If you were sheeping Thor for legit reasons and now have a scumread on burns, why are you still voting Daughter

My scumread on Daughter is higher.

what do you think about Blonde and Antagon's votes on burns

They are good votes, tho they'd be better if they were on daughter.

Do you think Thor's arguments for burns-scum were remarkably convincing? And if so which parts do you agree with, or not completely align with?

Yes, the discrepancies within the way Burns's words arent matching his actions.

And the vote's also for pressure.

Why thank you

please comment on Gale's vote as well.

It feels awkward that Gale retired the vote right after noticing it was an L-1 vote.

[Gale]

I apologize, I was extremely tired last night at a very late hour and obviously wasn't thinking very clearly. Both he and DaughterofLuthien seemed very defensive at a part of the game it didn't seem as though they had much to be defensive about, but now I also think that Sakura and Thor by the same logic should be just as "scummy" since they're also taking things much to far (in my newbie opinion) for an RVS game. Thus I'll refrain from voting at all until I have a clearer view of who actually is scummy since not all four of them can be.

(Also, I'm participating in a 24/7 activity at my university for the next four-ish days so I'll probably only come on once a day and be exhausted when I do so ^^; Apologies again)

[Thor665]

[burn_209]

it was to see what your reaction would have been if you had even given a reaction

No duh.

On a more serious note tho, what do you think of her vote, since she was who you were voting before?

Dont really have a reaction to it. I think that he is just following the herd which a lot of other players are doing. I more interested in what Gale's reason for voting me since she didnt even give one. Possible scum jumping in on the middle of the wagon?

And how would scum handle the situation?

By not having the take it or leave it attitude she did and not giving too much of a defense with two votes on her. I mean yea she voted for thor as retaliation but that was during the RVS stage and honestly I can see any one of us doing that same thing. It just wasnt as emotional or panicky as I would have thought a scum member would have acted. She was calm stoic and didnt give a shit that there were two votes on here. That makes me think that she doesnt think she is that important. And if you are a Mafia Member in a game this small you know you are pretty damn important.

So according to you there's a 50% chance of everyone flipping scum with no info, when there's actually like... 25% chance (If you include yourself as town)

I dont think you are understanding my concept or thought process here. If someone is lynched there are only two outcomes. Either you are town or you are scum. So because there are only two outcomes when that person is lynched it is a 50% chance they are town and 50% chance they are scum. So in my mind everyone starts out at 50/50 town scum because you really dont know and they could be either or. So through their actions that 50/50 starts to shift a little bit through out the game. So when I got that town read on DoL it shifted to about 52/48 town scum. Its a small deviation and I am in no way confident that she is town but its something that she did that makes me think she is slightly more town that scum. A good analogy of this is for those of you that ever played star wars knights of the old republic on Xbox as a kid. You start off neutral at a 50/50 lightside darkside ratio and as the game progresses that ratio starts to shift. Soon if you do good enough things your ratio would shift to be like for example 80/20 lightside darkside. Obviously at this point its pretty obvious which one you are. You are a part of the lightside. I really hope that makes sense and I tried to explain it the best way I could. Its may be an ass backwards thought process to some of you but it works for me and I understand it.

@thor in my opinion when you say you are fine with lynching someone that means, to me, that the person has done something to make you convinced that person is scum. I think being convinced that someone is scum when that person had two posts in the game is careless because it shows that it doesnt take much to convince you of something in the future and the mafia can use that against you and in turn fucking all of us because you are a strong player.

[burn_209]

We do need a lot more activity though. Cant scumhunt if no one posts...

[Gale]

Can someone explain to me what we're looking for right now? We don't have any reactions to deaths or anything to pick apart, just infighting about what seems to be nothing.

[Thor665]

@thor in my opinion when you say you are fine with lynching someone that means, to me, that the person has done something to make you convinced that person is scum. I think being convinced that someone is scum when that person had two posts in the game is careless because it shows that it doesnt take much to convince you of something in the future and the mafia can use that against you and in turn Smurfing all of us because you are a strong player.

If you think I play like that then how can you think I'm a strong player?
And if you think I'm a strong player, how can you think I play like that?

Seems like either way either you are misunderstanding/representing what I'm doing, or I'm a really pathetic player and am of no danger if scum misuse me.
Though I am happy you think I'm town.
Good to know.

Can someone explain to me what we're looking for right now? We don't have any reactions to deaths or anything to pick apart, just infighting about what seems to be nothing.

Hopefully what we're doing is "scumhunting"
If you need deaths before you can start scumhunting than you are a horrible dead weight around our necks right now.

The reality of what is happening is this;

Town knows jack all.
Scum knows who their buddies are.
Town needs to decide on someone to lynch - it is best to do so with lengthy discussions about the willingness of various people to lynch other people here.
Because, once we do start getting flips, that information becomes really worthwhile.

How would you propose we handle Day 1?
Also, why do you think the discussion is 'about nothing' if you also think Burn ended up looking scummy? <--- would really love the answer to this.