Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night (Game Over)


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Post Post #750 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:10 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

Votecount 1.7


[3] thenewearth (pieguyn, Mac, thezmon221)
[2] MafiaSSK (zMuffinMan, BROseidon)
[2] Morph the Cat (waynegg, mastin2)
[1] BROseidon (thenewearth)
[1] pieguyn (Varsoon)
[1] thezmon221 (Ghostly Penguin)

[3] Not Voting (MafiaSSK, Morph the Cat, Psychlone)

With 13 alive, it is 7 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-11-14 13:00:00)

MafiaSSK was prodded.
Last edited by borkjerfkin on Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #751 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:24 am

Post by Mac »

THATS CHEATING BORK.
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Post Post #752 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:26 am

Post by waynegg »

In post 718, BROseidon wrote:
In post 713, waynegg wrote:Outside perspective... BRO ~ what do you think of the intro on that post you quoted right there?
I don't like the phrase, but it would indicate that he's nervous about me pointing out mastin's waffling. Makes a good associative tell, but doesn't seem scum motivated unless mastin is scum.
I'm talking about these and liespotting
In post 338, thezmon221 wrote:Huh that's weird.

Ffery, what caused that? I
personally
don't see anything in my post that would change your stance,
personally
.
In post 683, thezmon221 wrote:
Honestly
, apart from his rage against BRO, in Post 350, I haven't seen much value in his posts. Not to mention, he harps on BRO in said post for commentating, but does the same himself, except for that post.
In post 696, thezmon221 wrote:Let's be honest here[/b]: When isn't this the case? I don't know if I have played a game with mastin as town where he
hasn't
waffled. It certainly was the case last Xeno game and he flipped town.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #753 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:26 am

Post by waynegg »

In post 696, thezmon221 wrote:
Let's be honest here
: When isn't this the case? I don't know if I have played a game with mastin as town where he
hasn't
waffled. It certainly was the case last Xeno game and he flipped town.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #754 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:27 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

honestly, i think that's more of a habit than a tell
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #755 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:31 am

Post by waynegg »

In post 754, zMuffinMan wrote:honestly, i think that's more of a habit than a tell
It's not. Whenever someone sets up something they're telling you with "I going to be honest with you" or a version thereof, more times than not they're about to lie their ass off.

And then I don't like this interaction with Morph. He had only just voted me and it seems like he was looking for an easy way to hop back off
In post 453, thezmon221 wrote:
In post 446, pieguyn wrote:@morph: back to my other question, do you think we can go for a wayne wagon? also, has any of this changed your reads on anyone?
Why do you feel wayne is scum? I didn't see any indication of such earlier.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #756 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:35 am

Post by waynegg »

Liars overemphasize their truthfulness.
“To tell you the truth…” “Honestly…” “I swear to you…” Oh, if only it were so! When people use these bolstering statements to emphasize their honesty, there’s a good chance they are hiding something. Learning to baseline someone’s normal behavior is important in situations such as this: You want to listen for normal or harmless use of such phrases. There’s no need to add them if you really are telling the truth, so be on guard.
If this were his normal behavior, he wouldn't have abruptly stopped saying it after I hit on it. Because it would be his normal behavior.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #757 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:39 am

Post by waynegg »

In post 754, zMuffinMan wrote:honestly, i think that's more of a habit than a tell
And you of all people should know, after Xenogears, to let someone answer their own questions and their own heat.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #758 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:51 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

In post 751, Mac wrote:
THATS CHEATING BORK.
:wink:
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Post Post #759 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:52 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

wayne wrote:let someone answer their own questions and their own heat.
i already held back on responding to 755/756
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #760 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:05 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

In post 662, morph the cat wrote:
UNVOTE
until Cabd and I have a chance to talk about this morning's posts.
has this happened yet?
spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh spiffeh
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Post Post #761 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:45 am

Post by waynegg »

I'll control f his posting history for honest when I get home tonight and see what turns up then. In my experience, "honest" is a strong indication of the opposite.
Wayne's reading...odd, but I think he's trying, he's just decided the quickest way to the market down the street was to create a causality portal and tesseract between the two spaces rather than walking. down. the street. ~ Ghostlin
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Post Post #762 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:43 am

Post by morph the cat »

In post 760, zMuffinMan wrote:
In post 662, morph the cat wrote:
UNVOTE
until Cabd and I have a chance to talk about this morning's posts.
has this happened yet?
Kinda. We haven't talked about where to put our vote yet.
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Post Post #763 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:10 am

Post by MafiaSSK »

Why was non-lurker waynegg only contributed a case when asked? That seems super scummy.
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Post Post #764 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:27 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 716, morph the cat wrote:I've replied to you. I don't see much work with or hash out happening here, Mastin. And I see a whole lot of oooooh but I might be. You wouldn't be distancing would you?
Honestly, I kinda suck at reaching out to you. :P It's there, but it's sorta subtle I guess. Probably too much. But I'm not sure what else I can do, other than blatantly spending a lot of time on you and forcing it through. But I don't want to force it through. I want things to flow organically. And I'm doing as much as I can to make things go that smoothly, yet they're apparently not strong enough.

(Also. I can't be distancing unless we're both scum. :P)

I am trying. I'm trying to figure things out. I'm trying to talk to you. But this is the best I can do.
In post 723, morph the cat wrote:Since his vote is on us, I'm assuming that means he thinks we're not strong players.
I can definitely understand how you'd interpret it that way, but it's not. You seem to be assuming that my vote on you is an attempt to lynch you. It's not. Quite the opposite, I fully expect the lynch to not be on you. My vote's not on you to pressure you. It's to make a statement about my reads, essentially.

In that...I'm desperate. I really, really don't have anywhere better to go. I don't. I simply don't. I wish I did, but I'm not seeing it. It's not a vote saying that I want you dead. It's a vote saying that I've literally got nothing else I can think of to do. Granted, I maybe shoulda used the bold tags rather than the vote tags to emphasize that. But my scumread on you was just strong enough to warrant the vote tags. In that I DO think you're scum, and decently-strongly, too. But...I'm far from certain on it. I'm not confident in it at all. I would prefer to go elsewhere, even. I just...literally, cannot think of anywhere better for me to go.
In post 722, BROseidon wrote:I don't like the part where mastin disappeared for just long enough for me to notice, but then posted before I was going to call him on lurking, then engaged with limited parts of the thread.
That's called my weekend V/LA, BRO. Check my sig. It's been there for months. :P
In post 725, zMuffinMan wrote:where does the scum read on PA come from?
Gut. :P I think that I just always scumread PA naturally.
what do you think about my point on his second post feeling out of place? even apart from that, he'd probably be in my scum list just by pure poe at this point. i have too many town reads.
Don't even remember your point. I'm quite certain I read it at least once, so that probably means I saw it, and basically went, "meh". :P And that's the thing. This game's full of strong players. It isn't the least bit concerning to you that you've gotten so many townreads on so many of the stronger players, and have the weaker players as scum via POE?

Yeah, I'd be ecstatic if it were that easy, but it NEVER is. (Hell, there's a damn-good reason I'm like 98% likely to be wrong about the three of {you, morph, BRO} being scum. Because that would be far too easy and I am no scumhunting god.)
we're 30 pages in and you're still not town-reading me. you even left me out of your big waffle-wall completely.
do you really find it this difficult to read me?
Nobutyes. No, you're ridiculously easy for me to read. But yes, you're difficult for me to read.
"...What."

Basically, I can read you, but I need to think things through about you and pick up on the right things. I'm a bit rusty on your scumplay. The last scum game of yours that I can find is Death's Diner (I saw a SK game, but that doesn't count), but you were a replacement there. (And, yes, I did read a fair bit of that game. Even considered replacing in at some point, but obviously never did--I scumread you there, by the way, Muffin. :P) Honestly, I'm putting it off until you've posted enough for me to get a good baseline on your play, here. Because I know I can read you, but I also know that it takes a little bit of time to get things accurate. Again, looking for the right things and all that.

Gun to my head, right now I'd say scum, simply because of overall gut feeling that this is you mimicking your Xenogears play while motivated by your Death's Diner play, if that makes sense. But that's a purely-arbitrary callout, made entirely because I haven't really put in the effort to confirm anything. I haven't done the meta, I haven't keyed in on it, I haven't analyzed if you're obvscum or obvtown, yet. Probably because I didn't want to get it wrong. :P
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Post Post #765 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:29 am

Post by mastin2 »

Gonna backtrack a bit.

I think I remembered a key element of zMuffin's scumplay compared to his townplay. (THINK. I need to check.) If I'm right, then that aspect seems like it's absent from this game, which'd make him most likely town. But I do need to double-check that.
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Post Post #766 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:42 am

Post by mastin2 »

Okay. So quick research overall makes me think that I'm right. It's something I'm not putting much stock in, because it's quick. I'd prefer to have done far more detailed and in-depth research on it. It's certainly possible I'm remembering the wrong things to pick up on with regards to zMuf. But what I've found with this quick dip into meta
does
suggest that he's town, albeit not nearly as strongly as I should be reading him.

Granted. This is mostly meta. Weak meta, at that. :P But it's enough to bump him into the town pile. Going purely off of reads, my opinion on zMuffinMan is somewhat muddied, though. I liked his thez push, and a lot of the early bits in his iso. His bits on wayne and SSK, though, not so much. Overall, he definitely does look like town, scumhunting, rather than scum, fighting for survival and working to manipulate.
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Post Post #767 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:47 am

Post by morph the cat »

In post 764, mastin2 wrote:
In post 716, morph the cat wrote:I've replied to you. I don't see much work with or hash out happening here, Mastin. And I see a whole lot of oooooh but I might be. You wouldn't be distancing would you?
Honestly, I kinda suck at reaching out to you. :P It's there, but it's sorta subtle I guess. Probably too much. But I'm not sure what else I can do, other than blatantly spending a lot of time on you and forcing it through. But I don't want to force it through. I want things to flow organically. And I'm doing as much as I can to make things go that smoothly, yet they're apparently not strong enough.

(Also. I can't be distancing unless we're both scum. :P)
You can be distancing from my flip, which is what I meant. Your
I could be wrong
message gives me that vibe.
I am trying. I'm trying to figure things out. I'm trying to talk to you. But this is the best I can do.
What do you want to talk about?
In post 723, morph the cat wrote:Since his vote is on us, I'm assuming that means he thinks we're not strong players.
I can definitely understand how you'd interpret it that way, but it's not. You seem to be assuming that my vote on you is an attempt to lynch you. It's not. Quite the opposite, I fully expect the lynch to not be on you. My vote's not on you to pressure you. It's to make a statement about my reads, essentially.

In that...I'm desperate. I really, really don't have anywhere better to go. I don't. I simply don't. I wish I did, but I'm not seeing it. It's not a vote saying that I want you dead. It's a vote saying that I've literally got nothing else I can think of to do. Granted, I maybe shoulda used the bold tags rather than the vote tags to emphasize that. But my scumread on you was just strong enough to warrant the vote tags. In that I DO think you're scum, and decently-strongly, too. But...I'm far from certain on it. I'm not confident in it at all. I would prefer to go elsewhere, even. I just...literally, cannot think of anywhere better for me to go.
And I'm perplexed that I'm your strongest scum read because I am not used to town-you getting my alignment this wrong. I don't guess I'll ever be objective about how my play impacts game state, especially in the first few pages of a game. But, my behaviors are always, always, ALWAYS shaped by my motivations and there's a very straight-line relationship between my motivations and my role. I can talk about how Cabd and I partner as town vs how we partner as scum if you want. I'm pretty close to an expert on at least my side of that partnership and what I think I bring to the table. I know where my strengths as a town player lie. I know where (what passes for) my strengths as a scum player lie.
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Post Post #768 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:58 am

Post by mastin2 »

On GP: They definitely could be scum, but I kinda get the same vibe from them that I've seen overall. Them as individuals (Ghostlin as a minor townread), and them as a hydra too. (Their play here seems to strongly resemble Death's Diner.)

On Mac: Gut-town, decently strong enough where I'm semi-clearing him.

On SSK: Also gut-town, reinforced by me not liking the push against him.

On Psychlone: Minor townread, but too early to be sure.

On Varsoon: looks like town.

On Wayne: Definitely looks like town.

On zMuffinMan: See my previous post; town.

I'm mostly writing these players off at the moment. That leaves...

On BRO: Got nothin'. Well, nothing at the moment. I'll get back to you in a bit. Overall, kinda sorta think he's scum, but hell if I know.

On Morph: seriously my best guess, and even then, that's terrible. :P

On pie: I need to re-evaluate things, here. See if pie's town or not. I don't know. I've said pie's town, but I need to make sure of it.

On TNE: Similar to SSK, but actually a bit weaker, in that TNE could be scum, but I simply don't know.

On thezmon: I'm seeing more of a town-thez than a scum-thez, but I'm not exactly confident in it.


What the hell does this leave me with?

WAFFLES. HARD-TOASTED WAFFLES. DRENCHED IN SYRUP. WITH A TOUCH OF WHIPPED CREAM, BUT WITH NO CHERRY ON TOP. NOT EVEN A STRAWBERRY! (There may be a Raspberry, though. :P) AND MAYBE WITH A DASH OF CINNAMON.

Butyeah. Looking in {BRO, morph, pie, TNE, thez}. Heck if I know how accurate that is. BRO and morph are the only two I'm not really townreading, with TNE at a close third, but the other two I need to take a closer look at to make sure.
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Post Post #769 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:01 am

Post by mastin2 »

In post 767, morph the cat wrote:What do you want to talk about?
I don't know, and that's part of the problem. Even my decent townreads like wayne and zMuffin and such aren't strong. But they're townreads all the same. And...that's the issue. A lot of the people being pushed don't look like scum to me. I don't think wayne is. I don't think SSK is. And yet, people like you are pushing them as if they are.
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Post Post #770 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:22 am

Post by morph the cat »

In post 769, mastin2 wrote:
In post 767, morph the cat wrote:What do you want to talk about?
I don't know, and that's part of the problem. Even my decent townreads like wayne and zMuffin and such aren't strong. But they're townreads all the same. And...that's the issue. A lot of the people being pushed don't look like scum to me. I don't think wayne is. I don't think SSK is. And yet, people like you are pushing them as if they are.
I can actually see a wayne townread based on how his play has evolved after the push on zmuffin. SSK, I dunno. Like I said, my experience with his play was in a game with very unusual mechanics, and he had what I think was a very strong start in that game. I misread him in that game mostly based on word choice stuff - including but not limited to labeling stuff his scumreads (particularly me) were doing as "anti-town" instead of "scummy". His level of involvement in this game needs to change. Without that, I've got nothing upon which to base a read-change of my own.

I don't really trust your reads at the moment because I know for a fact that your strongest scum read is wrong. What I don't know is how off-base it is, e.g., to what extent my play somehow justifies the misread. Unless I get a handle on that, I don't think you're going to be very effective at convincing me one of your other reads is solid gold.
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Post Post #771 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:39 am

Post by mastin2 »

(Random fun fact: it was completely coincidental. I swear. This game had zero reasoning for me to start rewriting this article. I started it with as part of my efforts to get my MD threads recorded as wiki articles. But by complete and total coincidence, just about every single piece of advice in there is what I'm doing right now, because I need to have it done. :P)
In post 770, morph the cat wrote:I don't really trust your reads at the moment because I know for a fact that your strongest scum read is wrong. What I don't know is how off-base it is, e.g., to what extent my play somehow justifies the misread. Unless I get a handle on that, I don't think you're going to be very effective at convincing me one of your other reads is solid gold.
Nor should you trust my reads. *I* don't. :P If I don't trust my reads, nobody should. :P As a general hint. My scumreads are typically far more off-base than my townreads are.

Butyeah. What I'm actually looking for isn't for you to convince me you're town. What I think I'm mainly looking for is for you to tell me who's scum, and to do so in a way that I can synch up with it. 'Cause on SSK? I'm not. At all. At worst, I see him as null. At best, as town. I'm not feeling him being scum at all.
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Post Post #772 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:53 am

Post by morph the cat »

In post 771, mastin2 wrote:(Random fun fact: it was completely coincidental. I swear. This game had zero reasoning for me to start rewriting this article. I started it with as part of my efforts to get my MD threads recorded as wiki articles. But by complete and total coincidence, just about every single piece of advice in there is what I'm doing right now, because I need to have it done. :P)
In post 770, morph the cat wrote:I don't really trust your reads at the moment because I know for a fact that your strongest scum read is wrong. What I don't know is how off-base it is, e.g., to what extent my play somehow justifies the misread. Unless I get a handle on that, I don't think you're going to be very effective at convincing me one of your other reads is solid gold.
Nor should you trust my reads. *I* don't. :P If I don't trust my reads, nobody should. :P As a general hint. My scumreads are typically far more off-base than my townreads are.

Butyeah. What I'm actually looking for isn't for you to convince me you're town. What I think I'm mainly looking for is for you to tell me who's scum, and to do so in a way that I can synch up with it. 'Cause on SSK? I'm not. At all. At worst, I see him as null. At best, as town. I'm not feeling him being scum at all.
dude. I thought you are well aware that I townhunt far more effectively than I scumhunt.

And one of the players I'll want to make a stake in the ground has hardly posted at all.

There will most likely be an incoming reads list update in an hour or two.
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Post Post #773 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:57 am

Post by pieguyn »

@morph:
In post 747, pieguyn wrote:what do you think of BRO's jump on wayne?
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Post Post #774 (ISO) » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:12 am

Post by morph the cat »

In post 773, pieguyn wrote:
@morph:
In post 747, pieguyn wrote:what do you think of BRO's jump on wayne?
I thought I answered this.

The vote itself didn't trouble me too much because I also had rising concerns about Wayne at that point. The main reason I waited until yesterday morning to vote him was because I didn't want to jostle the interactions between Wayne and thezmon because those interactions were helping with my reads on both players.

However, I didn't like the reasons for the vote, and made a note to bring that up with Cabd when we synch our reads. In the Wayne games I've read, I've found him to be plenty abrasive as town.

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