Newbie 1444 ~ Game Ovah ~ Mafia Win

[Thor665]

Also, it's not even like I said the meta made me town.
All I claimed was it made me null because I do it in all my games.

Justify quickly.

[Malakittens]

2.03

With 8 alive it's 5 votes to lynch

Voting for:

*Kytoxid -
*Gale -
*Cxinlee -
*Zipperflesh - Thor665, Talah [2]
*burn_209 -
*1baldeagle1 -
*talah -
*Thor665 - Zipperflesh, Kytoxid, burn_209, 1baldeagle1 [4] [L-1]

Not voting: Cxinlee, Gale [3]

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2013-11-21 16:12:00)

[talah]

This is the thought process coming from Eagle which has me confused:

Scum in burn, Thor, Gale
If burn flips scum, Thor is likely scum with him
If burn flips town, wagon analysis is required
Burn gains townpoints
Vote Thor presumably looking for wagon analysis
Gale isn't on the wagon

So the dependency has changed from burn-scum likely means Thor buddy
To Thor's buddy needs to be rooted out by way of jumping off Thor's wagon because burn's more likely town now

This is an entirely counterproductive move unless Eagle has a different motivation from the above.

[Thor665]

A lot of what he's saying doesn't make a lot of sense, and the shift to me feels desperate.
I'd still really like to lynch Zipper first.

[Kytoxid]

The fact that my scummier reads have all jumped onto the Thor wagon and pushed it to L-1 now is making me uncomfortable.

UNVOTE:

In other news, I'm still waiting for a Zipper response to my post. cxinlee's catch up post is late too.

@Thor:

My point is that I'm not understanding your thought processes and how you arrived at each conclusion. It doesn't even provide whether you dislike it because you think it was scummy, or you dislike it because it's not clear, or you dislike it because it disagrees with what you believe. As I mentioned to talah, I want to put you into my town pool, but the lack of understanding of how you arrived at your conclusions is making it difficult.

I skimmed your games, missed that post, and drew the conclusion based on the overall sense of your meta. My apologies.

I understood your burn case on D1 from post 67 very well, but have not seen much of the same afterwards. For your Zipper scum read, I understand the evidence you're presenting (his actions on the Sakura wagon), but I don't know what your

logic

is. Different people can see different things in the same posts. Could you hash your logic out?

@burn: Your post really bugs me. The logic doesn't line up, and thought process seems unclear.

When you zone in on someone it seems goal driven and if it is goal driven it must be malicious.

Things like this make me go ???. From what I can gather, you're saying:

- Zipper is null to you right now.
- Thor is scummy for tunneling you D1, and soft-pushing Sakura near the end of the day.

Is this correct?

As well, you state that Zipper has pointed out Thor's soft-pushing "very nicely". Do you disagree with Thor's counter-points?

Nice post. Townpoints for you.

Thor, that self-meta in attempt to clear yourself is scummy.
VOTE: Thor

THAT'S L-1

@Eagle, if you've been paying any attention to my exchange so far with Thor, you'll know that I prefer knowing your thinking more than just your ideas. Please clarify why you think burn's post is town-leaning and Thor's self-meta is scummy. At the moment, your post is the one that looks scummy and opportunistic for jumping onto a wagon and putting it to L-1 without any real reasoning.

[zipperflesh]

@kytoxid

I was mainly liking you and eagle as scum partners with Sakura, but her flipping town makes that theory gakked

As for town reads, talah and gale are my only strong ones atm... Talah for her general pro town play of questioning everything, and gale for making Newb townie mistakes...

[zipperflesh]

@talah

I meant that I doubted you and sak where on the same team, but that didn't rule out the possibility of either sak being scum with another partner or you being scum with another partner. I wasn't trying to imply that we where facing multiple scum teams.

I would like to find the time to go back and retread or at least do some isos, but I'm not sure when I'll the time to do that.

I think burn would have been a fine day 1 lynch, but I'm liking his spot as scum less and less as the game goes on. I do think there is a small possibility of Thor bussing him day 1.

All I can really say about 366, is that sak threw out some good points against Thor that got me thinking and by day start my read on Thor had changed.

[zipperflesh]

Not liking the sudden change in eagles position on burn, can you explain why that post gives burn town points?

[cxinlee]

Skimmed through the thread
First Thoughts:

Burn seems annoyed when attacked, I think this is town because a) scum try their best to look as calm as possible (#stereotypes) and b) You usually feel upset when someone wrongly accuses you. Constantly updating on what’s happening irl regardless

Thor basically questions everyone to figure them out, that’s townish. He’s been tunnelling Burn throughout the entire game. @thor: What’s so scummy against Burn?

Talah has a rather organized way of thinking and likes to based her thinking on facts, which is good. Good motivations and showing her thought processes makes her lean slightly town. Reacting to a townread is usually townish (just what i’ve seen), scum usually brush it away.

Gale if you can’t be active just replace out.

Why the hell are we pushing for a lynch so early

[cxinlee]

yes, this will take a while getting used to

[Thor665]

@Thor:

My point is that I'm not understanding your thought processes and how you arrived at each conclusion. It doesn't even provide whether you dislike it because you think it was scummy, or you dislike it because it's not clear, or you dislike it because it disagrees with what you believe. As I mentioned to talah, I want to put you into my town pool, but the lack of understanding of how you arrived at your conclusions is making it difficult.

So, to clarify, it actually has nothing to do with me being unclear or unexpressive on opinions. It has to do with you wanting me to explain my thought process on...everything? Do I need to explain my thought process on why I find this silly and obnoxious to request?

Here's an idea - when I advance an idea, and you don't understand it, ask me *that specifically*. Don't come and attack me for "not explaining" when I haven't been asked to explain anything. I, and most players in...*this* game, much less most players in all the other games on MS do not explain every thought process. To be honest, a lot of people don't even explain their thought process when asked, which is why the entire concept of 'gut' reads even exists - because some things can't be understood or explained fully even by the person thinking them.

If this is really your issue I feel you came at it from a sideways approach, and in a ridiculous way wherein you didn't make it clear what your issue really was.

I skimmed your games, missed that post, and drew the conclusion based on the overall sense of your meta. My apologies.

What do you think of baldeagle attacking me for my meta defense? What do you think his logic was?

I understood your burn case on D1 from post 67 very well, but have not seen much of the same afterwards. For your Zipper scum read, I understand the evidence you're presenting (his actions on the Sakura wagon), but I don't know what your

logic

is. Different people can see different things in the same posts. Could you hash your logic out?

I do not understand this question. You understand the actions of his that I have pointed out...but you don't understand the logic of how that makes him look scummy...?
Do you think his actions that I have noted are town or null tells? Because I would be fascinated hearing why.
He avoided a stronger wagon that he had expressed support of in order to do a last minute pressure wagon on a player who was then lynched and flipped towm. I feel like that is prima facie for scum motivation and intent. Where am I losing you into thinking it is null or town on his part?

Thor basically questions everyone to figure them out, that’s townish. He’s been tunnelling Burn throughout the entire game. @thor: What’s so scummy against Burn?

I made a case against Burn, have you read it yet?
If not, keep reading.
If you have and you don't understand it, ask me to clarify the part you don't understand.
Otherwise all I'd do is re-state the case again or go and quote the post I made it in.

[cxinlee]

I mentioned that I skimmed through the thread

Chances are I missed it

Oh well Ill just iso you instead to find the post

[Thor665]

Considering the number of things I called out Burn on, I'm sad you missed all of them even though you realized I didn't like the slot.

Maybe try a Ctrl+F with 'Burn' in my iso? That should help focus you in.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5403540

There.
It's like the second post I made after voting him. Ctrl+F is amazing.

[Thor665]

And if you're going to say you read, and then ask me about why i think Burn is scummy...? Dude, just say you're skimming or something, don't lie about what you read, because that makes me want to lynch you. Honesty is town's best tool.

[burn_209]

burn

, when you get back I'd like to see a list of your current reads in order of strength.

Just a list is great for now. If I have specific questions about it I'll ask.

List in Order from Town to scum

1. Talah
2. cxinlee
3. Kyto
4. Bald
5. Zip
6. Gale
7. Thor

Thor, that self-meta in attempt to clear yourself is scummy

Um...you do realize that she attacked me on a meta ground and I told her the meta was gakked and so was her logic?

If she attacks me on meta grounds how am I supposed to call her wrong *without* referencing meta?

Justify this rather silly stance please.

Then why dont you tell her why she doesnt make sense instead of just telling her that she doesnt make sense. Thats what makes me really think you are scum above everyone else. You dont respond to peoples questions or comment on their posts. All you do is point fingers and then when people ask you about something all you do is answer that question with another question or give them an extremely vague half assed answer.

Here is a perfect example.

Sakura brought up a good point about you soft pushing his lynch, but not unvoting burn.
And now you're parking a vote on me, while you soft push a burn lynch. Why am I suddenly a substantially better lynch than burn?


1. Sakura brought up a really bad point - but I'll give you a chance to show how good it was. Please explain how I soft pushed her lynch.

2. Yes, I am putting a vote on you, I think you're scum. You are a better lynch than Burn because my beard says so, also your end of day interaction with the Sakura and Burn wagons were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. How did that "wagon not to lynch" go for you there? You deserve rope for that one.

First off you say because your beard says so, which is basically saying "because I said so now deal with it." Then you said they were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. You didnt explain why you thought that or even elaborate on it. You just gave a vague answer and expected people to accept it. Nowhere in that post did you post something and elaborate why you thought the way to did or backed it up with any facts or opinions. All you did was say here is what I think now deal with it

What was the purpose of this post? Everyone knows this already. What made it so fascinating?

The purpose, if you can't see it, probably isn't worth explaining

. Especially if you think everyone knows what I was saying...I actually don't even understand what you're even on about here. Either everyone knew, and understood what was interesting, or people didn't, and I should need to explain it.

Again here is another vague half assed answer to a question. If you were town you would actually be helpful and explain that post to someone who is trying to get clarification on the post. Instead you were like "if you cant see it then you are stupid and I dont need to answer to you"

@burn: Your post really bugs me. The logic doesn't line up, and thought process seems unclear.

In post 396, burn_209 wrote:When you zone in on someone it seems goal driven and if it is goal driven it must be malicious.



Things like this make me go ???. From what I can gather, you're saying:

- Zipper is null to you right now.
- Thor is scummy for tunneling you D1, and soft-pushing Sakura near the end of the day.

Yes Zipper is null new to me right now. As I stated in my post he did some things that I would consider scum and somethings I consider town. Im not confident in him being either one at the moment.

As for the second part you are correct except for the part that says Thor is scummy for tunneling

YOU

D1. He could have been tunneling me, you, talah, Bald, or any other player in the game and I would have got the same scum read and same feeling about the situation. I dont see how you were dead set on lynching someone through out the entire day and locked your vote on that person all day....and then soft push someone to get lynched at the end of the day if you were town. You could say that you wanted to avoid a no lynch and would have been happy with either lynch but if that was the case why didnt he change his vote when it was apparent that I wasnt going to be lynched yesterday? To use his own analogy if you want Ice Cream but would settle for cookies, why wouldnt you eat the cookies if the Ice Cream shop is closed? It just looks to me like he wanted to have no part in lynching Sakura because he knew she would flip town. It would have looked ugly for him if he had his vote on me, or any other player, the entire day and then switched it to the bandwagon at the last minute and that person flipped town. So instead of changing his vote he took the safe way out and kept his vote where it was. It seems overly scummy to me that if he was content with a Sakura lynch that he wouldnt have voted for the Sakura lynch once it was apparent his vote wasnt helping towards a lynch. It seems to me like him leaving his vote on me was an illusion so that it wouldnt look like he hopped on a bandwagon midway which resulted in a lynch of a townie.

In post 404, Kytoxid wrote:@Thor:

My point is that I'm not understanding your thought processes and how you arrived at each conclusion. It doesn't even provide whether you dislike it because you think it was scummy, or you dislike it because it's not clear, or you dislike it because it disagrees with what you believe. As I mentioned to talah, I want to put you into my town pool, but the lack of understanding of how you arrived at your conclusions is making it difficult.



So, to clarify, it actually has nothing to do with me being unclear or unexpressive on opinions. It has to do with you wanting me to explain my thought process on...everything? Do I need to explain my thought process on why I find this silly and obnoxious to request?

Here's an idea - when I advance an idea, and you don't understand it, ask me *that specifically*. Don't come and attack me for "not explaining" when I haven't been asked to explain anything. I, and most players in...*this* game, much less most players in all the other games on MS do not explain every thought process. To be honest, a lot of people don't even explain their thought process when asked, which is why the entire concept of 'gut' reads even exists - because some things can't be understood or explained fully even by the person thinking them.

If this is really your issue I feel you came at it from a sideways approach, and in a ridiculous way wherein you didn't make it clear what your issue really was.

In post 408, cxinlee wrote:Thor basically questions everyone to figure them out, that’s townish. He’s been tunnelling Burn throughout the entire game. @thor: What’s so scummy against Burn?


I made a case against Burn, have you read it yet?
If not, keep reading.
If you have and you don't understand it, ask me to clarify the part you don't understand.
Otherwise all I'd do is re-state the case again or go and quote the post I made it in.

So let me get this straight. Above you say that you dont have to explain anything and that is is a ridiculous request for us to ask you explain everything. Then you go on to further say that it is widely accepted among MS for people not to explain things to people and some don't even do it when asked. Then you go on and are ready, willing, and able to explain to cxinlee your case on me?

You do realize out contradictory this is right? Also I love how you use what is widely accepted in MS as a crutch for your actions. More and more it seems like you have something to hide and your believe it because I said so attitude not only bugs me but makes me think you are overwhelmingly scum. My vote is staying exactly where it is.
__________________________________________

@Bald I too am interested as to why you changed your stance on me so quickly. Could you elaborate on why you changed?

[burn_209]

I have a day off and no one posts lol nice.

[talah]

I have a day off and no one posts lol nice.

I'm off work crook and so around but not really 100% in the brain division.

Is there anything you want to talk about in particular? We seem to be townreading one another but completely at odds regarding Thor is one thing, the other is that cxinlee strikes me as scummy just as of this point. So that's two things we pretty much disagree on.

[burn_209]

A lot of why I think Cx is town is because I thought Micc was town and I think that is the same slot correct? I'm on my phone right now so I can't give a full detailed explanation as to why but expect one in a couple hours when I get back home

[Thor665]

Then why dont you tell her why she doesnt make sense instead of just telling her that she doesnt make sense. Thats what makes me really think you are scum above everyone else.

...I...*d8d* tell her exactly why i thought her case didn't make sense?

You dont respond to peoples questions or comment on their posts.

First off you say because your beard says so, which is basically saying "because I said so now deal with it." Then you said they were beyond the ken of me to put into a towny mindset. You didnt explain why you thought that or even elaborate on it. You just gave a vague answer and expected people to accept it. Nowhere in that post did you post something and elaborate why you thought the way to did or backed it up with any facts or opinions. All you did was say here is what I think now deal with it

And...I *have* explained that one as well.

Again here is another vague half Smurfed answer to a question. If you were town you would actually be helpful and explain that post to someone who is trying to get clarification on the post. Instead you were like "if you cant see it then you are stupid and I dont need to answer to you"

Well, actually she was accusing me of IioA and then *also* accusing me of not explaining things. I was pointing out to her that either I was scum for talking about stuff that everyone knew already or I was scum for not explaining stuff, but I couldn't be scum for both at the same time. I wasn't trying to explain anything in that post, I was scumhunting her odd stance. So, yes, i didn't explain anything in a post I was not trying to explain stuff in.

but if that was the case why didnt he change his vote when it was apparent that I wasnt going to be lynched yesterday?

I do not think this was ever the case - especially not if Sakura hadn't self-voted.

So let me get this straight. Above you say that you dont have to explain anything and that is is a ridiculous request for us to ask you explain everything. Then you go on to further say that it is widely accepted among MS for people not to explain things to people and some don't even do it when asked. Then you go on and are ready, willing, and able to explain to cxinlee your case on me?

Yes.
I don't actually understand what is strange about that, nor where any of it is hypocritical or illogical.

You do realize out contradictory this is right?

No. I don't.
Explain it?

Also I love how you use what is widely accepted in MS as a crutch for your actions.

That's actually half the point of the Newbie game queue - to teach you what is normal on Mafia Scum. Go read the job of the IC again.

Why do you just have a null read on Zipper?
If you really do - what are you doing to make it a clearer read for yourself?

[talah]

A lot of why I think Cx is town is because I thought Micc was town and I think that is the same slot correct? I'm on my phone right now so I can't give a full detailed explanation as to why but expect one in a couple hours when I get back home

Meh, it's okay I'm not trying to drag you over hot coals.

I'll do a quick re-iso of Micc. The thing that really struck me was 'wanting Antagon to come back' - and then the jump off that wagon at L-1 onto Sakura (from memory) really had the feel of something that was probably going to happen no matter what Sakura said. Also cxinlee took ages to come back with a pretty crappy inpost, and I'd seen him posting elsewhere in the meantime.

So I really have a couple of theories on why Eagle would vote Thor to L-1 and one of them is in the hopes that cx would derphammer, the other because he was fairly confident that Thor's lynch wouldn't go through and wanted to vote Thor even though he didn't have an argument that really made sense. I find that second (distancing) less likely. And actually thinking about it the derphammer is not a fantastic strategic move if cx is buddies with Eagle but is probably more likely.

Actually a better option is that Eagle's scum with neither cx or Thor and panicky because his team tried to kill Thor last night and wants to end the day as soon as possible.

[Thor665]

Actually a better option is that Eagle's scum with neither cx or Thor and panicky because his team tried to kill Thor last night and wants to end the day as soon as possible.

That is a possibility.

That said, if you think scum tried to kill me, it reinforces the Zipper issue quite a bit. And if you don't think it does that - then it's about the Burn issue. I'm fine with you buying into either, but want the Zipper votes right now.

[talah]

Well - you've got the Zipper vote right now. So I'd appreciate if you did something with it, as you just ninja'd me about to vote Eagle.

He's got an entire ISO of spraying mud on everything, primarily burn, and then out of nowhere gives burn town points and switches his vote for what I'd consider possibly the scummiest-feeling post burn's made.

[talah]

Meh. Zipper's responses seem pretty straightforward. Micc's iso's not as bad as I remembered.

VOTE: 1baldeagle1

[cxinlee]

By ages you mean 1 day?

So thor essentially your arguement against him is that he finds pressuring a town thing to do, yet he does not respond well when pressured?

Sorry Im still getting used to the game