Open 536: Faith Plus One Game Over! Mafia Win!

[bubbajack8]

Arguing goes back and forth, but little changes, and the torches need to be re-lit.

Vote Count 0.4
Grimgroove (1) : Scarlet Yoshi XScorpion (3) : pieceofpecanpie, Taylor, GrimGroove Taylor (3) : Paschendale, willwang123, XScorpion pieceofpecanpie (3) : phokdapolees, shos, Blueberry Paschendale (1) : Obscurity Shos (1) : Helium-3 Not Voting (1) : T S O
With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline is in (expired on 2013-11-27 17:18:00)
Willwang V/LA until 11/17

[Obscurity]

@everyone

I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.

Susan (may I call you Susan?), I think you're overreacting. Stahp.

Oh god can you imagine if the scumteam is all 3 hydras?

How do

you

know how many scum there are?

unvote: Paschendale

based on post 94. Thanks for joining us.


By the bottom of page 7 I'm ready to kill both XScorp and Taylor. KNOCK IT OFF

[Grimgroove]

You put your vote down after my first post/vote, post 51, so you must be referring to my

"Well this Day just got easy"

line as being sucky reasoning... Is that even worthy of being called "reasoning"?

Did you just use a stock term to justify your vote?

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Grimgroove]

XScorpion has gone kind of bananas over this wagon, though. There's some suspicion from Taylor's actions, but not this much. XScorpion is unfocused. That could be scum trying to find a weakness to exploit, or town poking people for reactions. The speed with which XS hops off of a new wagon, and tends to hyperfocus on whoever they're voting for. It doesn't seem to be gathering too much information, just trying to push the ball rolling however they can. Plus the vote on Pecan is dumb. Pecan's vote wasn't particularly suspect, especially for a first post in what could still be the RVS phase.

Agreed.

But why then, do you think Taylor's vote on Xscorpion is bad?

[Grimgroove]

read the game [...] can anyone explain to me if there's anything against Xscorp or are we just having fun?

You're kidding right?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Liking this pie dude!

[Grimgroove]

Shos, you're learning. I'm so proud of you. GG should be ashamed.

I see what you're doing here.
Do not like.

[Grimgroove]

@everyone

I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.

The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.

Vote: Pecanpie

I don't agree with this argument and I found the pecan-wagon more opportunistic looking than any other. Everyone on it is getting FOS'd.

[Grimgroove]

eh, anyone has anything to say about the setup maybe?

I considered but decided that discussion of the setup is not helpful at this stage of the game and it is more productive to use this time scum hunting and not speculating.

The setup is perfectly clear. This is an open game. What the hell is there to discuss?

[Grimgroove]

@everyone

I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.

The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.

No way of reading the players

Never heard of traditional reading where you analyze a player's post/ask questions etc?

This looks awfully full of obvious misrep to me. Pecan is not calling for a quicklynch. He's calling for what might be a policy lynch, but "early" pretty obviously means early in the game, as in days, as in don't wait for day 4, rather than a quicklynch without much discussion. And Pecan is right, lack of meta information does make it more difficult to get a read on them and thus denies town information. I don't think it's a lot of information that we're missing, but the charge of opportunism comes completely out of left field. There's no convenient or low risk vote at this point. We're on page 5, and it was page 3 at the time. The fourth vote on a wagon that is currently under discussion is hardly opportunism.

Lastly, the "no way of reading" bit is clearly taken way out of context. Pecan is saying that there's no way to know who they are. Not unless someone is very familiar with various players' posting styles and can pick out who is who just from that. It would certainly be more difficult than with a hydra that signs each half's posts.

None of this should be construed as defense of Pecan (though votes on him are really bad at the moment), but I have to ask what's with all the misreps and bad assumptions? Why not make a case based on what Pecan actually said rather than obvious misreps? What do you have to hide?

Yup!

[Grimgroove]

I think you're missing the point.

I was correcting pasch, who seems to believe people find pecan scummy because he suggested that we be lynched quickly, and assumes that everyone voting pecan had the same misunderstanding - that "quickly" implied "quicklynch".

I don't believe that's the case at all, considering that no one said "quicklynch" or even insinuated it. For someone who accused others of "misreps", I find it hypocritical that he did the same thing.

You cans ee how this is hilarious right?

Taylor is town though.

[Grimgroove]

Whoops, no, maybe not. Back to null with Taylor.

I hope taylor discloses the heads.

as just, you know, a courtesy thing.

Apologies, but we will not, not at this time. We're town and if you're town also (I think you are), we'll be working well together. That's about all there is to say.

I could see Taylor as scum based on the reaction. It's way overblown. Same problems voting Pecan. Taylor's posts just look empty and fluffy to me. Not the thoughts of someone who is trying to figure out what's going on. Vote on Taylor stays and is now serious. Looks like I poked the hornet's nest with my sharp stick.
PEedit: Yeah... Taylor voting for XS looks even worse. Pretty sold that one of them is scum. I think it's Taylor more than XS.

We are town, Dale. Continuing to push us is about the worst possible thing you can do if you're also town. (Which we think you are.)

These things between brackets.
(buddying)

Myes.

[Grimgroove]

You are correct that the reaction of my partner was overblown.

Can you at least sign your messages as Head A or Head B or something? Because I swear if this is just the beginning of more nonsense then I'll eat my own words and actually policy lynch you just for being a nuisance.

Your insitance on this hydra-business is a nuisance and has got nothing to do with this game. I had to sift through several pages of this bullshit. Hydra's not disclosing their heads is very common, not alignment indicative and has no influence on the game on how you read people.

That argument about hydra-dissonance is also inflated. The fact you use it before it occurred does sit well with me though. I think scum would wait until the inevitable occurs (hydra dissonance is close to inevitable) and only use it as an argument then.

Could you point me to a game where you used meta in your scumhunt? You're making a big deal out of something I suspect you don't even employ in your towngames.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: BlueBerry

End of page 6 XScorpion is reading very town to me. His frustrations, though unwarranted, feel genuine.

XScorpion, clarify this for me though: why are you giving Taylor such a hard time over this but are giving a pass to Scarlet Yoshi and Helium3?

[Grimgroove]

We're not looking for justification to accuse you of being scum. We're looking for signs of your alignment. And all signs point to you being scum who is ticked off that he's gotten caught

for what he perceives to be bullshit

.

Could you enumerate what arguments you are referring to here Taylor?

[shos]

@everyone

I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.

Susan (may I call you Susan?), I think you're overreacting. Stahp.

Oh god can you imagine if the scumteam is all 3 hydras?

How do

you

know how many scum there are?

unvote: Paschendale

based on post 94. Thanks for joining us.


By the bottom of page 7 I'm ready to kill both XScorp and Taylor. KNOCK IT OFF

firstly, this is an open setup, lol.
then, I thought you voted pasch on that post and did not understand wtf made you do it and wrote like 3 paragraphs but then I noticed it is an UNvote and not a vote...damn you.

@everyone

I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.

The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.

Vote: Pecanpie

I don't agree with this argument and I found the pecan-wagon more opportunistic looking than any other. Everyone on it is getting FOS'd.

what don't you agree with in it? I think that post is very, very townie and is a good thinking post. yes, the whole 'quicklynch' notation is wrong, but replace it with policy lynch and/or just a vote - and it is correct. as I've already said, there are plenty of reasons not to say who are your heads as a hydra, and that overexaggarated push by pecan is definitely voteworthy, imo. hence my vote as well.

eh, anyone has anything to say about the setup maybe?

I considered but decided that discussion of the setup is not helpful at this stage of the game and it is more productive to use this time scum hunting and not speculating.

The setup is perfectly clear. This is an open game. What the hell is there to discuss?

Well, how town should act. I dunno, last time I played the setup I was scum, so I didn't care much and kinda tried to sabotage stuff there, but we also go lucky to hit the cop N1 and that was a nice win. so I dunno, first time as town in this setup.

will read further soon

[Grimgroove]

shos and grovvey kid are standing out the most to me.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder <3
I'm here for you now.

[Grimgroove]

There were very clear issues that were discussed that no one seems to be addressing.

T

Again: enumerate them.

The only way I see is you being in the comfortable position of having to defend yourself against a stupid argument on hydra-play. You enjoy delving into that because it's so comfortable but it doesn't make you more town. As much as the hydra-argument is a null-tell, so is your defense against said argument. But that's the only thing I saw you do. What arguments against Scorpion are you referring to?

[shos]

Could you point me to a game where you used meta in your scumhunt?

MAN this is such an awesome question to ask. I hate to say it, GG, but you're town again.

*sigh*

I have to say that taylor's repeated townclaims look bad.

[shos]

VOTE: BlueBerry


VOTE: BlueBerry

why the blueberry vote?

[shos]

lolwut @ quote tags

[Grimgroove]

The BlueBerry vote, well, there's not much to go on, he only posted once in 102.

First of all, I disagree with the argument. pekanpie never called for a quicklynch. That alone is of course not my reason to vote Blueberry.

He's basing his attack on a logical argument. The problem is the logical argument is actually a defensive one: the defense against the argument that mysterious hydras are scummy. It's easy to make an argument against this argument. But it's a bridge too far to use it as an attack as well.

Blueberry's post and vote don't look to me like the result of someone catching up with the topic, forming reads. It feels to me like scum looking for a logically sound reason to hop on a wagon. He didn't hunt for scum. He hunted for a pretense to vote someone and found it in Taylor's defense. He tried to spicen it up with a subtle misrep to boot.

[Grimgroove]

+ Paschendale's 111 provides some additional good analysis on Blueberry's post.

The Berry needs a wagon.

[Blueberry]

@Blueberry

Welcome to the party, or should I say welcome to two pages ago...

I'm neither voting nor pushing Taylor currently.

Would you rather that I ignored that?

@Blueberry

I have heard of asking questions, thanks, you can start by giving me your opinion on Taylor? What, if anything, makes them town?

Taylor has been very confusing with her hydra stuff and I don't really like that she and scorp wasted like 5 pages bickering. It's not scummy though.

I really don't like the tone of Pecan's post though considering that I just misread some stuff.

This looks awfully full of obvious misrep to me. Pecan is not calling for a quicklynch. He's calling for what might be a policy lynch, but "early" pretty obviously means early in the game, as in days, as in don't wait for day 4, rather than a quicklynch without much discussion. And Pecan is right, lack of meta information does make it more difficult to get a read on them and thus denies town information. I don't think it's a lot of information that we're missing, but the charge of opportunism comes completely out of left field. There's no convenient or low risk vote at this point. We're on page 5, and it was page 3 at the time. The fourth vote on a wagon that is currently under discussion is hardly opportunism.

Policy lynches are horrible though.

[XScorpion]

In post 73, XScorpion wrote:
Oh god can you imagine if the scumteam is all 3 hydras?
How do you know how many scum there are?

...seriously? Get in the game.
Also can you like actually scumhunt instead of boo-hooing about having to read through the arguments? I don't like unvotes that aren't followed by new votes.

Could you point me to a game where you used meta in your scumhunt? You're making a big deal out of something I suspect you don't even employ in your towngames.

I could find an example if you are really really interested but trying to recall details of any game I played three years ago is a bit much to ask. That being said, I think you are mostly correct. Meta is something that
a) others are probably better at analyzing than I
b) I probably won't even bother using until lylo (when the whole game is behind us and everything can be looked at in perspective)
But that doesn't mean it's useless or that it shouldn't be an available tool.

Let me know if you want me to go dig through the old games and look.

XScorpion, clarify this for me though: why are you giving Taylor such a hard time over this but are giving a pass to Scarlet Yoshi and Helium3?

Scarlet doesn't get as easy a pass as helium, but
1) I know exactly who helium is
2) I didn't have to harass Scarlet to do something as simple as sign posts with different names. I shouldn't have to.

He's basing his attack on a logical argument. The problem is the logical argument is actually a defensive one: the defense against the argument that mysterious hydras are scummy. It's easy to make an argument against this argument. But it's a bridge too far to use it as an attack as well.

Um, mysterious hydras ARE scummy. Mysterious ANYONE is scummy. I'm always suspicious of people who have something to hide, almost as much as people who dodge questions.

Speaking of which,

In post 109, pieceofpecanpie wrote:
@BlueberryI have heard of asking questions, thanks, you can start by giving me your opinion on Taylor? What, if anything, makes them town?

Taylor has been very confusing with her hydra stuff and I don't really like that she and scorp wasted like 5 pages bickering. It's not scummy though.

Try again?

[XScorpion]

If you want literally the first example I found,
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2404091
where I identify Scott (correctly) as town based on meta.