Open 536: Faith Plus One Game Over! Mafia Win!

[Taylor]

it's not appropriate when there's no flip dude.

i'm telling you right now exactly what i noticed. you can disagree all you like but that doesn't change that fact. it doesn't change what i noticed or that i noticed it or that i pointed it out.

p-edit: i think they are town.

[helium-3]

You cannot both (especially when considering there's actually four of you) be so irrational. Mastin, the townhunter who's been with me in several games? Antihero, who's seen me play towngames at least twice now? Mollie, who's seen me play as town even more? And you? The odds of the four of you being so so wrong are just not that high, especially given it's me you're talking about, someone you're supposed to know better by now.

Nothing reeks about that argument. Looking for the possibility of associations is a very normal thing to do.

listen to me, you don't feel right! like right now I would have expected town groovy kid to at least try to interact like I asked you to I would think.

town make bad arguments all of the time and you this so why the fuck are you acting like it is some of mother of all scumtells? I am trying to get close and you are avoiding me and that is something that I usually associate with scum.

[helium-3]

grim... mastin has been MIA for days and days. I have been begging him to have a conversation with me. I am doing the best i can.

mastina has been active elsewhere on the site so he has not been mia for days and days.

[shos]

so I haven't been able to get on the site for some time for some reason, and now I have SIX more pages to catch up. SHEESH GUYS

[Taylor]

grim... mastin has been MIA for days and days. I have been begging him to have a conversation with me. I am doing the best i can.

mastina has been active elsewhere on the site so he has not been mia for days and days.

omfg.. what do you want me to do about it? i dont control him. he's not talking to me in the QT. he's not explaining his thoughts or why he's posting certain things.

[helium-3]

grim... mastin has been MIA for days and days. I have been begging him to have a conversation with me. I am doing the best i can.

mastina has been active elsewhere on the site so he has not been mia for days and days.

omfg.. what do you want me to do about it? i dont control him. he's not talking to me in the QT. he's not explaining his thoughts or why he's posting certain things.

I don't believe you.

you would have pmed him by now

[helium-3]

pssst, groovy kid

mollie's the god cop

you're supposed to break down crying and tell all your deepest darkest secrets to her

haven't you ever seen law and order before?

[Taylor]

You know, I'm sorry I wanna play this game. I mean, if I just waited to talk with him before posting anything I would not have posted anything at all this entire game. I'm tired of waiting. I'm following the game and I'd like to give my input.

p-edit: i have pm'd him.

[Taylor]

It's very fucking frustrating. And to have people wanting to lynch me for something I can't control is horrible. It makes me mad. This shit literally has nothing to do with the game. I give my reads, I give my opinion, I give my observations, but THAT'S not why people want to lynch me. They want to lynch me because my thoughts and opinions don't match what my partner has said.

You act like the dissonance is something I fucking enjoy or am actively creating. I am doing everything I can to just keep going without the person who is supposed to be leading me.

[XScorpion]

Just gonna go page by page here:

I would say it was hydra dissonance, that T made that list without my consent. However, that'd be inaccurate. T is beginning to come around to my point of view. T made that list without my input; that is still true. However, I cannot claim hydra dissonance anymore because T is actually agreeing with my revised reads, and not T's stated reads. Thus, this IS a question that can be answered, but not by me. By T.

The basic reason behind it, though, is that T--like me--feels that there is something off about Grimgroove's play this game. Going off of our guts, we're both beginning to see a lot of the same things, and they're the things I've been pointing out. For instance, that your posting has gotten much better.

So are you confirming that this is a meta call and nothing else? I'm a bit tired of saying this, but why should anyone suspect GG besides meta?

I don't share Guyett's views of Taylor (I don't think the 'defensive' argument thing happened here) or TSO (I only have a null read, not sure how you can be so convinced of TSO scum from such little content), but otherwise I think Guyett is spot on with the reads. The Pasch one I would have agreed with if not for his latest posts which are making me reconsider my town read of Pasch.

Random thought of the moment: GG is going to be pissed if TSO votes him for those 2 RVS votes.

He's treating Helium like they are town. Like he knows they are town.

This argument doesn't work because you do this all the time.

A mere repetition is not an answer to my questions.

Because presenting yourself as a "mislynch target" in a playerlist with far easier targets is disingenuous.

Also, I think mollie was just agreeing with me. Or she was correcting my hydra slip.

Ah, the low-hanging fruit thing again. What makes these targets easier?
Paschendale isn't acting scummy at all in this game, good luck getting him lynched. Don't know what had gotten into him in that Reboot game, but if he had played like how he's doing here he wouldn't have been a mislynch.
Blueberry, well, you keep saying he's low-hanging fruit, but I'm still not seeing that.

I agree with GG here; Helium, why do you think those 3 are easy lynch targets?

also pasch wasn't fuckin scummy in reboot i did not understand that lynch at all. he's scummy here.

T

You say this but I haven't seen you vote him. You're still on what I consider to be a stupid wagon considering helium's tunneling.

Xscorpion: Before calling the vote on Taylor bad, you should take a look at what surrounds the vote.

A post full of emoticons. I voted Taylor when I was pissed off too and now you're doing the exact same thing I was.
If it wasn't an OMGUS vote AND wasn't on a wagon that currently is populated by 50% lurkers then maybe I wouldn't call it bad, but it's bad.

Xscorpion is right. You should give a readslist. That would be a real reach out. What you've given me now is not a reach out. It's a threat.

HELIUM

if you ignore this I will lynch you so fast it's not even funny.

XScorp's 502: The what now? You think Shos' vote is scummy but you're voting for me? Shos looked (at the time of 429) to be decently town to me. He's providing content. It's a little tunnel-y, but it's a lot better than all the shouting you do.

Are you reading the same game as me? Shos hasn't contributed anything remotely useful at all. And where exactly is he tunneling? He doesn't even suggest the idea that I'm scummy, he just puts down a vote. Give me a REAL reason why you think he is town because you haven't so far.

Guyett, as above, makes a good point that's causing me to reconsider the townread, but Shos certainly isn't going to get a strong scumread from me. Your point is nonsense, though, and if you want Shos to defend his vote better, bug him, not me.

His point is literally one line saying 'shos looks like he's contributing but he really isn't.' Do you agree or not? If you do, then how on earth do you still refuse to see him as scum?
Why do I suspect Pasch isn't paying full attention to this game? First the assumption that everyone voting Pecan had the same mindset as Blueberry, now the complete failure to analyze shos... I'm willing to believe Pasch is town if he admits he was not paying attention whatsoever when he analyzed shos.

I don't think I can without outing one of the heads of the hydra and until they're happy to not be anonymous.

Then why should anyone trust you about it?

You don't have to but it could be very important if either TSO or Taylor get lynched or if we get a result on one of them.

The hydras are outed. What do you have to say?

Guyett - Nullscum (really not buying that supposed meta-study he did on me, it's something small but it really pings hard. The other stuff is better.)

I don't like this read at all.

shos - Nulltown

WHY?!?!?!?!?!!
What the hell is with so many people thinking there is anything town about this guy? Am I totally missing something here?

anti and I are talking right now and 1 of the things that has come up is how

nearly every1 is OMGUSing in this game

and it makes the game murky and hard to get reads. and I probably need to do a reread through.

This is actually a very valid point, and makes me think that people are getting too emotional here.

so I haven't been able to get on the site for some time for some reason, and now I have SIX more pages to catch up. SHEESH GUYS

If you are actively lurking I will massacre you.

[XScorpion]

Random thought of the moment: GG is going to be pissed if TSO votes him for those 2 RVS votes.

RVS posts***

[shos]

@post 394:
1. you have harrassed taylor(and the topic) on the subject of revealing her heads, when you in fact don't often even use meta. see post 371.
2. you are nitpicking. the first example I could find was right here under my nose(it's a new one, lol) in post 396.
3.

BTW someone lurking is scum so if you could all get into the game that would be great.

you are literally sheeping me for a while here now. not only this line, but also the call for guyette-lurker which is in fact wrong since he only replaced in(my bad btw) - you're faking it. faking it all.
~~~

@GG 404: yes, BB was a low-hanging fruit. his wagon grew very easily based on a SINGLE post by him. he has an average of 1 post in like 80 of this game, and for that people vote him/?? that's not nearly enough info to vote anyone. opportunistic wagon was opportunistic, scummy players were scummy. Blueberry is, therefore, town.

@412 N164: this is a scummy rubbish post. you literally went over my entire ISO and read it for us. they can read, telling them what I do is of no use. not to mention that half of what you said there is just plain wrong. I did state why i was voting scorp, and I never called BB 'too stupid to be scum'. I mean where the hell did that come from? see above for why BB is town.
~~
that kind of posts is the 'scummy rubbish' that I called because as far as my experience goes, scum really have fun in just going over ISOs and stating facts and not opinions. it gives long posts with no commitment, and looks like scumhunting.
~~
guyette and Xscorp are mistaken with the 180 of taylor, it is two different heads talking.

oh my god it's still 6 more pages.

*sigh*

[XScorpion]

you are literally sheeping me for a while here now. not only this line, but also the call for guyette-lurker which is in fact wrong since he only replaced in(my bad btw) - you're faking it. faking it all.
~~~

This is gonna be good. Can't wait till you get to the end.

[XScorpion]

this is a scummy rubbish post. you literally went over my entire ISO and read it for us. they can read, telling them what I do is of no use. not to mention that half of what you said there is just plain wrong.

I did state why i was voting scorp

, and I never called BB 'too stupid to be scum'. I mean where the hell did that come from? see above for why BB is town.

What, because I disagreed with Taylor? Try a bit harder plz

[XScorpion]

Haha I'm not sure it's even worth my time to respond to shos' "case".

[Grimgroove]

BB was a low-hanging fruit. his wagon grew very easily

Sorry that I'm doing this again but:

[XScorpion]

shos give me your reads of all the players or I'll vote you.

[Grimgroove]

Random thought of the moment: GG is going to be pissed if TSO votes him for those 2 RVS votes.

No idea what you're talking about here.

Xscorpion: Before calling the vote on Taylor bad, you should take a look at what surrounds the vote.

A post full of emoticons. I voted Taylor when I was pissed off too and now you're doing the exact same thing I was.
If it wasn't an OMGUS vote AND wasn't on a wagon that currently is populated by 50% lurkers then maybe I wouldn't call it bad, but it's bad.

You were talking about MY vote being bad. This has got nothing to do with other people on the wagon.
Yes, that post came full of emoticons but also with a message. A message that was further clarified as my interactions with Taylor continued.

Guyett - Nullscum (really not buying that supposed meta-study he did on me, it's something small but it really pings hard. The other stuff is better.)

I don't like this read at all.

442 for further clarification. Just doesn't feel right. Not enough to vote him over it, but he's definitely on my radar.

shos - Nulltown

WHY?!?!?!?!?!!
What the hell is with so many people thinking there is anything town about this guy? Am I totally missing something here?

Like I said, that was off the top of my head. I don't remember why exactly, but I do remember liking shos in the beginning. His last post sucked. Going to get to the nulls and nulltowns later, like I said.

anti and I are talking right now and 1 of the things that has come up is how

nearly every1 is OMGUSing in this game

and it makes the game murky and hard to get reads. and I probably need to do a reread through.

This is actually a very valid point, and makes me think that people are getting too emotional here.

Or that people are making shit cases without checking the facts. Take shos for instance. A growing wagon on BB? Really? I was the only person to vote Blueberry in this game. There never was a wagon. People are spouting whatever and of course that ticks the people they're sputing this stuff about very aggravated.

[Grimgroove]

You cannot both (especially when considering there's actually four of you) be so irrational. Mastin, the townhunter who's been with me in several games? Antihero, who's seen me play towngames at least twice now? Mollie, who's seen me play as town even more? And you? The odds of the four of you being so so wrong are just not that high, especially given it's me you're talking about, someone you're supposed to know better by now.

Nothing reeks about that argument. Looking for the possibility of associations is a very normal thing to do.

listen to me, you don't feel right! like right now I would have expected town groovy kid to at least try to interact like I asked you to I would think.

Have you seen my reads list? I'm giving you an extra day for a reason. Yet you're still not doing it. You're still simply threatening me. I'm not doing like how you asked me to, so I'm scum? Please...
What about you do something I ask you to do? Talk to Antihero and tell him his case is shit, for starters. A reads list second. And then maybe we can start a beautiful story from there and I'll hold on to my little helium-balloon like a kid who's never seen one before in his life <3

town make bad arguments all of the time and you this so why the fuck are you acting like it is some of mother of all scumtells? I am trying to get close and you are avoiding me and that is something that I usually associate with scum.

How am I avoiding you? And there you go, another bad argument.
Town makes bad arguments yes, but you guys are stacking them up and I expect more of you. Antihero seemed to be going for quantity rather than quality. Is it so wrong to expect more of you two? You seem to have all these expectations about me, so I don't think it is. You know me well mollie, I know you do. Antihero I could give a pass, given he's seen me play as a mod, which is Always a different perspective as you're pre-informed. But your gut scumread on me is really out there.

I don't even know what it is you want from me at this point.

[N64Lord]

@post 394:
1. you have harrassed taylor(and the topic) on the subject of revealing her heads, when you in fact don't often even use meta. see post 371.
2. you are nitpicking. the first example I could find was right here under my nose(it's a new one, lol) in post 396.
3.

BTW someone lurking is scum so if you could all get into the game that would be great.

you are literally sheeping me for a while here now. not only this line, but also the call for guyette-lurker which is in fact wrong since he only replaced in(my bad btw) - you're faking it. faking it all.
~~~

@GG 404: yes, BB was a low-hanging fruit. his wagon grew very easily based on a SINGLE post by him. he has an average of 1 post in like 80 of this game, and for that people vote him/?? that's not nearly enough info to vote anyone. opportunistic wagon was opportunistic, scummy players were scummy. Blueberry is, therefore, town.

@412 N164: this is a scummy rubbish post. you literally went over my entire ISO and read it for us. they can read, telling them what I do is of no use. not to mention that half of what you said there is just plain wrong. I did state why i was voting scorp, and I never called BB 'too stupid to be scum'. I mean where the hell did that come from? see above for why BB is town.
~~
that kind of posts is the 'scummy rubbish' that I called because as far as my experience goes, scum really have fun in just going over ISOs and stating facts and not opinions. it gives long posts with no commitment, and looks like scumhunting.
~~
guyette and Xscorp are mistaken with the 180 of taylor, it is two different heads talking.

VOTE: SHOS
I just read through 8 pages, and I can see that GrimGroove clearly winning the argument over Helios and Taylor, and I was going to say something about Helios' agenda for being on it, and why he's town, but it's been covered.

Anyway, You respond to my thoughts on you with more self-defeating arguments. Your Xskorp vote was not explained, unless the posts from Pashendale and others that you quoted and said were good, indicates a implicit agreement with them. However if this is true, then your entire view on Blueberry's "wagon"is an intentional lie. I claimed you said Blueberry was too stupid to be scum because you were wishywashy on whether the people going out of their way to jump on him was because they were obsessed with his one post, or because there really was something wrong with it.

I think its the nature of the game that caused my block posts. As Paschendale said earlier, this game has been overly defensive with the big wagons Helios and Grimgroove are pushing deriving from stuff said on page 9. Therefore there is a much smaller porpotion of content to people's rationale behind it.

Nevermind that I replaced into a game that generates 175 posts a day, You are asking me to assume that everyone is up to date on things and has made the same connections, and to leave "obvious" stuff unspoken. BUT THEN WHY are you calling out the likes of pecanpie!?!

[N64Lord]

This is actually a very valid point, and makes me think that people are getting too emotional here
RVS posts***

I need to contribute properly.
VOTE: Taylor
As my initial scumread, and because of how he's continuing to "prove" the whole GrimGroovy thing instead of backing down, especially when he claims that people holding to their opinions obstinately is more alarming than changing.

This game is beginning to look more like a case study on the fallacies of using meta.

My main problem, is that while Taylor is making very scummy posts, I can't see a clear agenda(mislynch that would look natural) like I expect from scum. This is complicated by Helios debate with GrimGroove, and how Helios is able to see that Taylor is making hurtful posts, but imo not admitting the full extent of his badness.

Want scum Shos to be lynched out. So very badly.

[Taylor]

Taylor

- Scum. A lot of your early play looks like you are getting super defensive and could be scum frustrated for being caught for the wrong reasons. Also if taylor is scum so is TSO. If Taylor is town TSO is town. The 180 between town reading grim and then voting him is pretty bad.

Bluntly.

Fuck being defensive. We've been on the offensive this whole game. We pushed XScorp until we got a better idea of his alignment. (Town.) We're pushing Grimgroove, who is pretty damn likely scum. We've been working with town players like helium (who're definitely town, because this is their town meta through-and-through. Both halves, too! And, yes, I do damn-well know both halves' meta). And part of scumhunting is working with town players, which we have been doing.

Part of working with others does involve what can be considered defense. In that we need them to not scumread us and to work with us to find actual scum. That? That we've done. Because, bluntly, I am not scum. (You can always make an argument for T being scum, though! ) Treating me as if I'm scum off of god-damned confirmation bias won't do anything but shoot the town in the foot. YOU. REALLY. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. BE. PUSHING. US. IF. YOU'RE. TOWN.

Fuck those interactive tells with TSO. TSO's null, dead-null, to us.

Fuck the 180 being scummy. We have damn-good reasons to reassess our reads, and we did so. Hell, name the scum motivation for it. There is none. Know the town motivation? BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE SCUM ARE AND HAVE BEEN HUNTING THEM.

And fuck being "scum caught for the wrong reasons". Because the push against us is entirely made up of bullshit from players who are likely to be town (aside from Grimgroove who is about as obviously scum as he can be), who are pushing the worst possible lynch they could. You're right. There's frustration. BECAUSE PLAYERS. WHO I KNOW TO BE TOWN. ARE NOT. LISTENING. TO WHAT. I. AM. SAYING.

I am town. Period.

Helium is town, too, Guyett. If nothing else, you should be able to tell that this is mollie's townplay. It's also Antihero's. They're the towniest player here, in fact. XScorp is also town. The former-Yoshi slot is town. Pasch is town. Willwang is a townlean of mine, as is pecan.

But talk to me about TSO. Talk to me some more about Blueberry. Talk to me some more about Obscurity. And also talk to me about why Obscurity's vote is worrisome to you but the lynch on us isn't. (I am NOT someone who gets bussed by my partners. I make DAMN good and sure of that.)

When was this? Swift claimed to have noted it first and that you agreed with him.

Because that's what happened. I made a note in the QT about my read. T came in and said that T was beginning to think the same thing. AFTER. I had. Paraphrased, it went like this--
Me: "Grim's scum."
T: "I'm starting to feel the same, because of *reasons T put*."

They're both true. There's no contradiction.

Might I point out. This is an age-old style of scum-posting Grim is employing. He's dissecting each element of the quote, addressing things separately that should be placed together, removing the context from them. I'd know because I WAS THE ONE WHO POPULARIZED THAT TACTIC. In 2009. (Granted, I did it as town, too, but it was noted how anti-town it was back then and how MASSIVELY beneficial it was to scum, which is why I kept doing it as scum as late as 2011.)

i am really.. i am fucking mad.

This is about the one thing we have most in common, by the way. (AND THIS IS NO EASY FEAT TO PULL OFF. Because normally. I am a more collected player. But this game is. seriously. ticking. me. off.)

tbh the aTe by taylor makes me want to vote them

Oh, there are appeals, alright. And there's emotions. But they're two entirely separate things. There's no AtE in our play. Just appeals, which because they're falling on deaf ears, are stirring up emotions.

[Taylor]

etl you are looking scummier and scummier.

Fuck etl (<3 ETL), read me.

Yes, it's not impossible to do.

I am town, mollie. As town as I can be in this game. Seriously. Town. Not conftown yet, but practically at that level.

[Grimgroove]

Might I point out. This is an age-old style of scum-posting Grim is employing. He's dissecting each element of the quote, addressing things separately that should be placed together, removing the context from them. I'd know because I WAS THE ONE WHO POPULARIZED THAT TACTIC. In 2009. (Granted, I did it as town, too, but it was noted how anti-town it was back then and how MASSIVELY beneficial it was to scum, which is why I kept doing it as scum as late as 2011.)

Hahahahaha, so now aren't you just using my own meta against me in a ludicrous fashion, you are now effectively using your own meta against me? You can't be serious?

And you just claimed to have done it yourself as town. Why am I not allowed the same evolutionary stages as you've been through before you became Mastin the Great and Wonderful?

(oh, and look, I'm doing it again. Don't let the irony get to you <3)

I did not ever remove context. How could I?
Are you claiming I misrepped you? Show me where.
If I didn't, what's the problem of being efficient in communication? The original posts are still there. I have no mod powers so I can't delete them. I can't delete context.

Why is your lynch "the worst possible lynch"? It's an interesting choice of words I must say.

[Grimgroove]

Also. Talking. Like. This. Makes. You. Sound. Really. Authorative. I'm. Impressed.

Taylor has to be lynched. Sooner rather than later. He's driving at something and I'm not liking the speed nor the destination one bit.