NY 168: (GAME OVER) The Mod is Dead, Fire and Ice Edition

[Desperado]

/confirm

[Desperado]

Vote: Yuni

RVS is pretty lame anyway.

[Desperado]

Yuni was kind enough to eliminate the RVS stage this game by scumclaiming their first post. You should oblige and vote them.

[Desperado]

Reasonably could have been "respect that the game hasn't officially started yet". I think it's null for that reason.

But if she had respect for the official start of the game then she wouldn't have posted at all, right?

[Desperado]

In a nutshell:

Yunichikawowwow [8] - Garmr, Slandaar, Desperado, Bulbazak, Dry-fit, Yiley, JKLM, PeregrineV

There is DEFINITELY at least one scum on this wagon, if not multiple.

I am not sure of my thoughts on Yuni's alignment, however, from the little I've scanned of this game.

Unvote

Really? There's at least one scum among

eight people

? This epiphany wasn't genuine at all.

[Desperado]

Matias, do you have any reasons for Garmr being scum other than "eh" "ew" and "yuck"?

I think he had a "holy jesus" thrown in there too.

[Desperado]

I want Yuni dead so we can lynch Matias after she flips scum. His thought process is so much shallower than Mastin's, and given the game we just finished that is not something I expected to say about Matias.

[Desperado]

Yes, I do see that, but I also think there's a difference between being attacked and being wagoned, and I don't think Garmr set a bad precedent whatsoever because Yuni's opening post showed legitimate scum intent.

[Desperado]

I didn't see it as throwing herself out in front of everyone. If anything, the lack of conviction in what she was saying implies to me that she wanted to say something but didn't want to be seen.

PEdit: I agree that there is likely scum on the wagon but again, there were 8 people on it and this are 19 people in this game. Of course a page three L-2 wagon had scum on it. The way you are arbitrarily assigning reads based on it (why is Bulb the most likely?) is a red flag.

[Desperado]

PEdit: I agree that there is likely scum on the wagon but again, there were 8 people on it and this are 19 people in this game. Of course a page three L-2 wagon had scum on it. The way you are arbitrarily assigning reads based on it (why is Bulb the most likely?) is a red flag.

Fair enough. You need to understand that I made that post after scanning the thread and noting the wagon. I didn't really read into anything until just about an hour ago.

And Bulb seems most likely because I felt like JKLM saw something in the wagon and was right about the placement this time around. It's easy to hop on when you have validation (this doesn't hold true for most games...this is an old meta thing, but I feel like it does apply here).

I don't think scum-Bulb would care one iota what his placement on a wagon was. Especially that early.

Matias' immediate willingness to reevaluate is genuinely townie.

Regarding Yuni's #125 & #126 - I really like them.
Despite Yuni being at L-2, under pressure, not coming across as a strong player and having a very realistic threat of being lynched, Yuni's posts have no hint of nerves, panic and (possibly most importantly) appeasement.
Believing Yuni is town naow.

I think it makes her scummier. "No hint of nerves, panic, or appeasement" does not read like the mindset of a weak newbie player at L-2. It reads like a weak newbie getting coached on how to handle their wagon in their QT.

After a little kerfuffle, I'm here and ready to town it up.

I like Mastin for Town, I like Dry-fit and Yiley for scum.

Either works, but let's go for Yiley.

Vote: Yiley

I think you should switch--scroll down.

it's multiball?

Zounds. Was this not in both the rules and the title?

TSO is probably town for ignorance.

Just probably? Either you think it was a townslip or you think it was a dumbtell--which is it?

Dry-fit is a somewhat-strong scumread, but not nearly as strong as I'd prefer him to be.

Yeah I'm feeling off my game in this on so far. Are you going to explain your read on me like you said you would? And why do you want me to be a strong scumread? Have something against me?

I'm not really liking Yiley right now. Didn't follow up on his Yuni vote and hasn't brought any other scumreads to the table.

Matias' attack on the Yuni wagon doesn't feel quite right either.

Don't like apologizing for looking scummy, don't like buddying Mastin, and I really don't like the hypocritical, voteless mudsling on Yiley:

Yuni's response to her wagon looked townish.

Unvote.

About mastin's townslip: I see it, but it's not the kind of thing I put a ton of stock in. Calling a townslip on yourself is always questionable as well.

Maxous seems town to me based on the last game I played with him but not a super strong read.

No one looks particularly scummy at the moment but I can see Toomai as scum.

Vote: Toomai.

Unvote
Vote: Dry-Fit

[Desperado]

It doesn't even end with looking scummy. I haven't gotten any scumreads better than marginal and only a couple townreads I would consider solid.
I don't see how my post is buddying mastin.
I should point out that I've made the case that being hypocritical can be legitimate multiple times as town: Game of Things, Fire and Ice.

So if you have only marginal scumreads that aren't strong enough to share, why are you voting Yiley for not putting forward any scumreads?

You're allegedly town and you don't feel comfortable putting forth any scumreads but are voting someone for doing the same. If anything, Yiley's apparent difficulty in acquiring scumreads be a towntell to town-you who is having difficulty acquiring townreads.

[Desperado]

Yeah, after Dry called you out for not having any

[Desperado]

Yuni & Desp; When did you realise this was multiball? Did you read the rules? Assume based on name? Found out in thread?

It was advertised as multiball:

@Tierce:

This is the account that we will be using to run the game.

We accept Hydra's and you are allowed to communicate with each other.
This is a Fire and Ice Multiball game.

Spoiler: Rules

General Game Rules

• Votes must be in vote tags to count. Unvote tags are not required before voting someone else, but can help with clarity. A majority of votes is required to lynch—no exceptions.
  
• Day 1 will last 21 days, all Days afterwards will last 14 days, Nights will last 2 days although may be shortened if all living players PM us.
  
• Prods go out after 48 hours of inactivity. If you do not respond to a prod within 48 hours or we have to prod you a third time, we will replace you. We will count weekends as half time for Prods.
  
• Please notify me of any V/LA longer than 48 hours,
  
• Don't talk about the game outside of the game thread unless specified in your role PM.
  
• We will use
  Pink
  and
  Orange
  . You may use these colours except where it could be mistaken as impersonation of the mod. If in doubt ask.
  
• Do not pretend to break the rules or encourage others to break the rules.
  
• If something needs my attention, PM me or bold the word "Mod" followed by what you want to tell us.
  
• Additionally, all site rules apply. (We allow "Bah!" posts, by the way.)
  
  
  Game Specific Rules
  
  
• All players with access to a quicktopic may post there at anytime.
  
• If both Mafia teams target the same person in one night phase, they will survive.

Welcome [Player] to

A Game of Ice and Fire

. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Abilities

• Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.

Win Condition

• You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and there is at least one town player alive.

Confirm in Thread

[Desperado]

@ Yuni: What is your opinion of Dry-Fit right now?

[Desperado]

1) I assume 'like' means you town-read them, why? (since your vote is based off of this)
2) agree with who? Desperado? he's the only person that gave a reason...agree with which part?
3) Why is your vote non-engaging of Dry-Fit?

[*]Yeah mostly Desperado's point-out I guess.[*]I agree with other people about him being scummy for previously-stated reasons. What exactly am I supposed to engage upon?[/list]

Wow I think I may have actually stumbled into finding scum this game. Also Toomai why would having your townreads voting me make me scum?

Toomai's vote on Dry-fit was particulary bad and he continues to coast in a scummy manner. It's different from Dry-fit and Yiley's *blatant* coasting, Toomai is being more deceptive about it

Wanna know who's really coasting this game? PeregrineV. But that's kind of always the case.

Gotta love that the only case made against me was Desperado's and he hasn't responded to my criticisms of it at all.

Your criticisms are garbage. The only counterargument you've made is that you've said before in other games that hypocrisy isn't scummy.

"Nuh-uh!!!!" isn't a criticism, it's a deflection.

[Desperado]

I was down to lynch Dry-fit when the wagon started but 269 makes him seem town to me. He's not too concerned with his own survival to still scumhunt.

Anyway I'm caught up finally.

Do you think his lack of defense is related in any way to the fact he doesn't have one?

Do you think not having a defense is scummy?

He does have a defense, it's just mindbogglingly stupid (and scummier than no defense at all).

[Desperado]

I would like mastin to explain his read on me at some point.

In post 203, Desperado wrote:
Don't like apologizing for looking scummy, don't like buddying Mastin, and I really don't like the hypocritical, voteless mudsling on Yiley.

It doesn't even end with looking scummy. I haven't gotten any scumreads better than marginal and only a couple townreads I would consider solid.
I don't see how my post is buddying mastin.
I should point out that I've made the case that being hypocritical can be legitimate multiple times as town: Game of Things, Fire and Ice.

"As town I have argued that being hypocritical isn't scummy, therefore my hypocritical push on Yiley isn't scummy."

[Desperado]

No I think he has. He thinks that because he has town games where he was talked about how being hypocritical isn't scummy, I am therefore not allowed to read his as scum this game for his hypocritical Yiley push.

I just don't agree. And his repeated attempts to pretend like I haven't read his links (as if this has any bearing on it at all) in lieu of explaining how my interpretation of his "defense" is wrong is why I'm still pushing him.

[Desperado]

and having someone at L-1 is not necessary at this point.

Why not?

[Desperado]

Vote: Aptil

It was a crappy hammer.

Now, who had Maxous pegged as scum day1?

Also, Merry belated Christmas to everyone!!

Why are crappy hammers scummy?

Do you really think ice-scum announced their Maxous scumreads and then murdered him? That doesn't seem like good multiscum play to me.

Vote: Peregrine

@ Bulb: Which team is Mastin on?

[Desperado]

Yuni, TSO, and Toomai are all town on this page

Yiley is scummy. "Hey guys, don't worry about the hammer, we really need to go on the attack and not be so defensive!!!" /does nothing

Garmr, why go after Aptil rather than picking up where you left off on JKLM?

[Desperado]

@ Matias: True. But I always save "the scum are playing like shit" for last.

@ Aptil: I disagree completely, Toomai's was the only vote I really liked on you. You see him blaming others, I see him calling Yuni out for not having any conviction.

@ Bulb: What games are you using to base your metaread?

[Desperado]

Why are crappy hammers scummy?

They are not, always. It depends on how it's done.

Do you really think ice-scum announced their Maxous scumreads and then murdered him? That doesn't seem like good multiscum play to me.

Well, I think a player found Maxous scummy, and said it in the thread. Probably only once, maybe twice at the most. When they realized they couldn't get him lynched, they shut up, because they then figured they would NK him instead.
Granted, this is only speculation, and maybe it was an Ice member that Maxous called scum instead.

But, it's a criteria to look for.

OK, so what about the way aptil did his crappy hammer made it scummy?

A very weak one, I would argue.

Yiley is scummy. "Hey guys, don't worry about the hammer, we really need to go on the attack and not be so defensive!!!" /does nothing

I definitely don't think that's scummy. It's a "get your shiz together" post, to keep us all from doing something very silly.

It's a "get your shiz together" post that Yiley doesn't accompany with getting some shit together.

@ Aptil: I disagree completely, Toomai's was the only vote I really liked on you. You see him blaming others, I see him calling Yuni out for not having any conviction.

Why did you like Toomai's vote on Aptil? Do you think Aptil deserves more votes or not?

Toomai took the opposite approach from Yiley. Yiley begged us to not get bogged down by reactionary play but did nothing to change the status quo. Toomai took a stance, owned it, and even admonished someone else who had taken a similar stance and then illogically backed down from it. In other words, he was encouraging Yuni to get her shit together while walking the walk himself.

@ Bulb: Which team is Mastin on?

I already claimed:
Warm.

Yuni, TSO, and Toomai are all town on this page

Yiley is scummy. "Hey guys, don't worry about the hammer, we really need to go on the attack and not be so defensive!!!" /does nothing

You're gonna need to explain Toomai-town/Yiley-scum to me, since I got the opposite impression.

Also, random note. NJAC, I realize I misread you last game, but I'm reading you scum this game, too, through a combo of Antihero's (lack of) posting and your entrance lacking...hmm, not sure what's the word. Heart? Best word I've got--your posting lacks the heart I'd expect from a town player.

See above.

Of course.

You probably should be voting me then.

YES! YES! YES!

Who is scum besides TSO?

The sum of Antihero posts were to vote Dry fit and accuse Toomai.

Why does that earn him death?

Also, slowbrain now, but Maxous' group was the one that shot Antihero.

You meant to look at OGML, not Antihero.

Vote: Yiley

[Desperado]

That's 50% right at best. Thoughts on what I said about Toomai?

TSO is town. Yuni's the most likely to be right.

[Desperado]

We need to go on the attack and not be reflexively defensive.

How is voting for a terrible hammer not going "on the attack"?

VOTE: Aptil, and he better give me a good reason why he's inno if he wants to change my vote

I'll wait until he says something.

Unvote

You wait until he says something before you unvote.

Vote: aptil

This post is the worst of the lot . He not only votes me but also has other people ready to blame at .
VOTE: Toomai .

I just want to highlight that I really like this post.

Why? You're both misreading it.

[Desperado]

This posts looks really, really bad. It just seems like a very scummy thing to say.

It's scummy to ask one of my townreads for his thoughts on one of my townreads (that he thinks is scum)?

[Desperado]

I am extremely pissed off at Jklm's flaking because I know deep inside his scum and the way his been playing is because he hates scum. I will be willing to shift my vote to something worth it and if it is active. I thought long and hard about aptil and all the points others brought up about his meta. His just not worth the vote at this point because he just comes off as null.

Thank you for ringing that bell.

Unvote
Vote: JKLM

[Desperado]

Mainly this one. Mastin came across as strongly town there, and I'm not getting the same from him here. I'm also looking at his posts and noticing how weak they are stance-wise, and how he's built himself so many outs. Mastin is not giving me the town feels that I got in that game, and I don't think there's a reason why he wouldn't play so strongly in this game than he would in that one.

The scumMastin I know hates leaving himself outs and taking weak stances.

[Desperado]

The scumMastin I know hates leaving himself outs and taking weak stances.

How many times have you seen scum Mastin in a multiball game?

That's a good point.

Of course, multiball allows scum to appear more genuinely townie by nature. So maybe he's just town.

[Desperado]

This posts looks really, really bad. It just seems like a very scummy thing to say.

It's scummy to ask one of my townreads for his thoughts on one of my townreads (that he thinks is scum)?

Ah, I didn't notice that the question was directed at someone in particular. I guess that makes the question a bit less scummy. But it still doesn't look good to me.

Also, what's with your sudden vote on JKLM? You haven't hardly approached the topic of JKLM, but Garmr brings it up again and boom you're there.

Garmr reminded me that JKLM hates scum, which he had elaborated on once in a mini that got abandoned.

[Desperado]

2.) You are discounting the possibility that JKLM could have been a town created wagon, mainly because said players didn't like the Dry-Fit wagon. That's actually a very big oversight Mastin, and one I don't think you would make as town.

In post 611, mastin2 wrote:
I actually have reached conclusions. I've got a ton of townreads, and a preliminary callout on the entirety of both scumteams:
{Maxous, Bulb, Slandaar} and {PeregrineV, Toomai, NJAC}.

That's anything BUT "no conclusions".


That's incorrect actually. You had already reached your conclusions before you ever did your "reread" or "analysis". Anybody who has been paying attention will notice that your reads have never changed. All you really did was go back to the VCs and come up with ways to justify those reads, which tells me they were fake in the first place. In other words, NJAC is right (and saying what I have been) in that your scumhunting is fake, simply meant to look like the real thing.

dingdingding

The JKLM wagon even had Maxousscum on it at the end. JKLM scum getting wagoned by town countering Dryfittown's mislynch makes a lot more sense than Mastin's overcomplicated justification.

[Desperado]

So either he "forgot" about this game over the course of one day, or he's ignoring the thread because he's scum and is hoping to not post.

Of course, there is also other reasons also, which you may now present as to why the above postings have taken place elsewhere but not here.

Not even three pages were produced between my last post and you making this "case." I was posting elsewhere but not here because this game was not high on my priority list and my time is limited.

[Desperado]

Make it high priority this is the most important game ever full stop.

It's not going to happen today (today is a day for drinking and watching men lightly concuss themselves for 8 hours. GO PATRIOTS!!!).

Maybe tomorrow though.

[Desperado]

That game was awesome!

Looking forward to penguin's entrance.

[Desperado]

Hey people, I should be caught up soon. Let me know if there's anything in particular you want me to address.

Still waiting

Yuni and JKLM/penguin probably aren't on the same team given JKLM's sloppy early Yuni defense/follow up vote, so I approve of this counterwagon.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Yuni

Still think Yuni and Penguin are not on the same team and Penguin's initial reads look really good to me. Especially the Yuni bit, which generally would give me some pause but the point she raises is so damn good (and unique, unless I missed someone else already bringing it up) that it makes up for her coming in and FOSing her counterwagon.

[Desperado]

This is pretty obviously a distraction to the good wagon on JKLM slot. Slandaar of course is part of the problem but Desperado looks bad too. Bulba is just misguided because of not believing in wagon speed and timing being relevant. Looking at the VCs, Yuni can be determined town without ever reading one of her posts. -_- I'll have to rethink teams. If anybody wants to talk compromises, I'd go for aptil or even Mastin before letting obvious town get lynched

You going to react to anything Penguin's posted or just keep mindlessly pushing the slot?

No, not good.

Why not?

[Desperado]

He isn't the only one who hasn't said anything about Penguin's posts. Why are you singling him out? What can really be said about the posts at this point?

Because as far as I can tell he's the only one pushing the Penguin as scum? While not responding to anything she's actually posted.

[Desperado]

Vote: evilpacman18

[Desperado]

V/LA until Monday 1/27

[Desperado]

Vote: Toomai

[Desperado]

@ Mod: I'm voting Toomai, not Aptil

Why is everyone pretending like claiming doc makes Toomai town? NY 167 and 164 both included scum doctors and Jacob was in 167.

[Desperado]

Why is everyone pretending like claiming doc makes Toomai town? NY 167 and 164 both included scum doctors and Jacob was in 167.

There's a missing Ice kill. Are you suggesting that Ice tried to kill Fire last night and that Toomai blocked it?

Yeah

@ Garmr: Ever heard of a Named Townie?

[Desperado]

The nurse doesn't prove the existence of a town doctor.

[Desperado]

What do you think happened last night then?

[Desperado]

I was initially assuming a town doctor that protected PA. Your posts are interesting, because they suggest night action knowledge that you couldn't possibly have as town. Regardless, I don't think it's best to lynch Toomai today. Although, we do need to see if your vote is counted, making TSO's an accidental hammer.

Which ones?

And no, TSO put Toomai at L-1 just like Toomai said.

[Desperado]

And why on earth would you assume either team would shoot a spent power role?

[Desperado]

PA is conf. town. If there's one thing you don't want with you in endgame as scum, it's conf. town.

And you think scum are thinking about endgame right now because...?

It was 8-2-2 going in to last night. The fact that you think either scum team would give even a seconds consideration to shooting a spent PR over cross killing is troubling. Trying to read things into my posts that aren't there is troubling also.

You were in 164. Why aren't you as paranoid about this as I am?

[Desperado]

All the ones talking about the possibility of a scum doctor. It hints at knowledge of Toomai lying about his target.

...no they don't. Prove it?

[Desperado]

Simple logic. The simple fact of assuming Toomai is a scum doc and not a town one must lead you to believe 2 things: 1.) He is Fire scum, since they actually delivered a kill. 2.) He is lying about his target. Why is that a natural conclusion? Because both teams are down to only 2 members each. If Toomai was a fire scum doctor, it would be suicide to claim his actual target, since if he dies, town would easily finish off his team. It is not in his best interest to do so, and claiming a false target introduces WIFOM and has the possibility of maybe getting a mislynch in, while simultaneously protecting his partner. It also has the advantage of buddying up to whoever he claims to have protected, since odds are high that they wouldn't want to kill him.

Ergo, if you are claiming that Toomai is a scum doctor, you are also asserting that he is lying about his target, and in that case, there are only 2 people who would know that for sure: The Ice team.

I don't need inside information to know that scum lie. This is weak as fuck, bro.

[Desperado]

You are sure about Toomai being a scum doctor at a level that is suggestive of inside information. I could see town being paranoid and suggesting it as a possibility, but they would unvote on the off-chance that Toomai might be a town doc. You're pushing him being a scum doc as an absolute certainty, and I can't see that coming from town.

No, I am sure that he's scum. He might be a scum doc or he might be fakeclaiming. Maybe he was just trying to draw a CC. This post:

@ Mod: I'm voting Toomai, not Aptil

Why is everyone pretending like claiming doc makes Toomai town? NY 167 and 164 both included scum doctors and Jacob was in 167.

Is doing exactly what you've described, without the unvote part...because I still think Toomai is scum regardless of his claim.

[Desperado]

Are we already to the "repeat things we've already said" part of this conversation?

[Desperado]

I have no idea what that's in reference to.

[Desperado]

Again: I think Toomai is scum. I think he may or may not be a doctor. I have seen scum do both and at this stage of the game I am trusting my read over their claim.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Rach

[Desperado]

I was sheeping Slandaar's case