Micro 273: There is Trouble in Paradise (Game Over)

[Wisdom]

Who are you talking about?

[YellowKingValley]

Who are you talking about?

Who do you think I'm talking about?

[Wisdom]

I have no clue, you don't make any sense.

[YellowKingValley]

I have no clue, you don't make any sense.

I sense... double standards...

[Kagami]

Jason, what are your thoughts on people who aren't Kagami?

Kazekirimaru - prob town
PhDScar - Null
Citizen M - Prob Town
Katarina LeBlanc - Possible scum
Kagami - Scum
YellowKingValley - Village Idiot
Deltabacon - Null leaning scum, would prefer a Kagami lynch but will settle onto a Delta one
Wisdom - Prob town.

Obviously I don't like the Kagami-scum bit, but I'm curious about the Wisdom - Prob town.

I like wisdom, in that I feel he thinks a little like I do, though maybe a little angrier, but I think it's very hard to put him into the town pile. He is very good at is putting himself in town-wisdom's shoes, and he clearly spends a lot of time thinking about this game. I probably lost the penguin game (newbie 1448) because I let him sow enough doubt into me to lynch phd-scum instead of wisdom-scum.

What is it that makes him town?

[Wisdom]

If nothing else, this paranoia is what makes kagami town. Why do you think otherwise, Jason?

[Kazekirimaru]

kaze is probably just VI.

Screw off.

OK I guess I didn't read Kaze's question.

EBWOP - I was in a game in which Kagami used a lot of stats (i linked it above). That's what my post 250 was based on.

So Meta works when it's convenient for you. Gotcha.

Kazekirimaru - prob town
PhDScar - Null
Citizen M - Prob Town
Katarina LeBlanc - Possible scum
Kagami - Scum
YellowKingValley - Village Idiot
Deltabacon - Null leaning scum, would prefer a Kagami lynch but will settle onto a Delta one
Wisdom - Prob town.

I really don't see Kagami scum. It seems to me like you're throwing her in your scum pile solely because she's not going meta-crazy a few IRL days into the game(that's the only reason you've given) and I just think that's not a good enough reason.

[YellowKingValley]

Prod Deltabacon!

[YellowKingValley]

Did JasonWazza lurk solely because he is afraid of / trying to mess up Kagami's metastat?

[YellowKingValley]

For using the supposedly effective and accurate metastat, Kagami will only paint herself into a corner in later days as scum. Why the hurry to lynch her early unless you are trying to silence her before you are found out?

For good players, if they can't find scum by D2 or D3, they are highly likely scum, and should be lynched only by then. Before the cutoff point, town will always try make sure good players survive. What JasonWazza proposed is not town motivated.

All that are assuming that Kagami is good of course. If she is mediocre and her metastat no better than random chances, then perhaps JasonWazza has a point. Even then, stats require time for data gathering.

[Kazekirimaru]

For good players, if they can't find scum by D2 or D3, they are highly likely scum, and should be lynched only by then. Before the cutoff point, town will always try make sure good players survive. What JasonWazza proposed is not town motivated.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... roficiency

[Deltabacon]

Okay, so that's a hectic 50 or so hours I've had. That won't be happening again and I won't be missing a whopping 8 pages of crap in this game again. You'll see more of me!

So I caused a stir, I misrepped something (until he says he was joking I'm still pretty sure I wasn't misrepping) and then I used a little bit of sarcasm in a response. Which proves I'm scum! Yes! The case has been cracked! (is my sarcasm clear enough now?)
The case on me is weak as shit. It's so very forced and yet it's taken me to L-1. Are we really going to shoot ourselves in the foot this early? It's idiotic at best, lambs to the slaughter-esque at worst. At least 1 scum is on my wagon right now.

I see you're the type to make jokes when you're nervous.

I find it interesting you start cursing after YKV mentions that the lack of it disturbs him.

I'm pretty sure that the above quote that Kaze quoted was directed at the Wisdom/Katarina back-and-forth. That's a little bit of a misrepresentation of what's happening there.

Kagami:
I don't do meta honestly

META SUCKS

And yet,

What bugs me is Kagami hasn't been relying on statistics in this game.

Kagami is a crazy person who believe that meta stats is the key to finding scum. Nothing of that this game.

I'm unsure on Kaze at this point. I'm trying to decide if I see him as slightly scum, or just overtly aggressive. However, Citizen made an open contradiction of himself which takes me aback slightly. Why would he suddenly start to use meta in order to pin something on Kagami?

What?? Isn't Mini 622 just some random game??

What bugs me is Kagami hasn't been relying on statistics in this game. Kagami is a crazy person who believe that meta stats is the key to finding scum. Nothing of that this game.

Didn't you say not long ago that you don't meta? Now you're using it?

I was expecting an answer for this, Citizen.

I don't do meta but I was in that game

Then deny that he does meta. Again.

Despite all this discussion of Kagami - he's voting for Wisdom. Yet he has never put forward any kind of reasoning behind this, and he seems to be happy to use his time discussing Kagami instead of pressing the player he's voting for, beyond saying 'You are Scum'. He's happy to sit on a vote without really contributing anything of worth beyond a discussion on meta.

UNVOTE: PhDScar
VOTE: Citizen M

[Wisdom]

Delta, thoughts on everyone else?

[Deltabacon]

Incoming in maybe 5 hours. Watch this space.

[Kagami]

It is only superficially inconsistent that citizen says he doesn't use "meta" but then uses meta, and it isn't alignment-indicative.

Everybody

uses their experience with people from past games; the people who say they don't like meta are usually referring to "meta" as games they personally haven't played in. They are also simply rationalizing the fact that they just can't be bothered to read extra games, but again, not alignment-indicative.

The strangest thing about Citizen's claim is that I did make use of meta in 129, 149, and 210. But why claim that I didn't just to attack me? Seems like anti-opportunism.

[Kagami]

Nobody but wisdom has enough games to reliably evaluate their play computationally, the metaputer may not show up at all. It overfits like crazy right now anyway.

[Wisdom]

That's kinda what I was thinking but I wanted to let Citizen reply to it on his own. I think that he defines 'meta' as looking up past games, while he doesn't consider experiential meta (experience from having played with people) as meta. As such, there's no contradiction.

[Citizen M]

yep that's right, how else would anyone define it?

catching up now...

[Wisdom]

Experiential meta (Using your experience from having played with people before) is also meta. For some people (like me), it's actually the only form of meta used.

[Citizen M]

i don't know why it would matter either way TBH

[Citizen M]

you know what also pisses me off: the idea that you have to

1. have a top suspect at all times

and 2. vote that suspect at all times


how stupid

[Kazekirimaru]

Mm. I'm not up for a Citizen lynch today.

[Kagami]

It only matters because the "inconsistency" marked you as possible lynch-bait.

p-edit: I agree, kaze.

[Citizen M]

so are you saying you think delta is scum


I'm on page 5 again ATM... the first 4 pages are unreadable.

[Wisdom]

you know what also pisses me off: the idea that you have to

1. have a top suspect at all times

and 2. vote that suspect at all times


how stupid

Not sure what the point of this post is or how it's related to anything?