NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

And like I still maintain that it the lynch was purely random at that point, but you probably guessed right since I hate his claim and the way he claimed (and he's now risen on my scumradar).

So props to you for guessing correct on something that had complete random probability? Go you!

Here ya go nacho. Please tell me how this was opportunistic at this stage.

[geists]

CAST DOWN FROM HEAVEN (FURY OF FLING FROM STRONGEST TO WEAKEST):

Spoiler: reads

Desperado - I liked Desperado's entrance because it was so solidly "I don't give a fuck, what's up guys". His early pushes felt more fluid and less loud and confident like his normal scum pushes. I didn't like his attack on Varsoon for "false dichotomies" because Varsoon does that as town as Desperado saw. I thought his push on Maraca was fine, and his push on Sakura was good (until recently when he continued pushing Sakura after the meltdown bit and didn't engage anyone on why opinions so radically changed). Geists scumread is also weird although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Desperado-scum fakeread, and the "oh I'm not pushing you today even though I have you as a scumread because you're not getting lynched" bit is weird, considering he's made no attempt to sell anyone on any of his non-consensus scumreads. Not at all hitting the level I expect Desperado-town to hit.

Ser Arthur Dayne - Initial read on Tammy is kind of weird (Tammy is highly town unless she can emulate her usual town aggressiveness): SAD hasn't played with Tammy for a while, sure, but I'm fairly sure he played with her on Westeros longer than anyone else in the game, so the bit of paranoia that she could fake what she showed here seemed disingenuous. His push on pie is weird and not really representative of what pie was doing (and I don't like his backtrack when he goes from "pie is doing zero scumhunting" to "his scumreads are fake/he's tunneling"). Him pushing pie pretty strongly and going "meh, can't get a read on you" was strange but probably not alignment indicative, and his later pushes on Muffin/us where he votes us then doesn't comment on the vote at all both feel weird (I think I read something about him explaining the reasons he did this somewhere). I'm still weirded about by his defense of SSK on the basis of being not good information; I like that he was so honest about the associative tell thing (yeah, it was a lie all along), but I'm not really sure what he was supposed to defend himself with as scum and that honestly doesn't look so great when his initial reaction was to lie about it, which would be for SAD-town. His switch on SSK also seems like an odd position to take; he doesn't seem to be getting boxed in by POE and I don't follow his case on SSK today, so the newfound scumread on him seems opportunistic. I like his snark, and I'm inclined to believe him when he says he wouldn't kill Tammy because he joined this game to play for her, but it's not enough for a townread.

Muffin - My main concern with Muffin at this point is that there's nothing in his posts I can point to and strongly declare him town because of it. His attack on me is mostly a response to my attack on him, and has a few genuine-sounding notes that are pretty fakeable for Muffin-scum. He felt a lot more aggressive dismissing me for my read on him than he does now which could be an effect of scumMuffin running out of angles or townMuffin not feeling as strongly about things as he did before. I liked Muffin's question to geists about their townread on me (is it because of how he sorted you?) because a large component of ffery townread on me in Marketplace was my sorting her, and I like the stronger than consensus townread on BRO since it's Muffin shutting down a mislynch option when I'm guessing mislynch options are fairly sparse. In the end, I need more content and I need town leader Muffin over the Muffin that we see here.

Norlkaz (but mostly Brian Skies) - I am completely null on Llamarble, and I've sort of resigned myself to being null on him for a while. Brian Skies did not post enough in order to get any sort of solid read on; there were a couple good-sounding moments earlier in his ISO, but nothing I have any sort of faith in.

BRO - This game feels very, very different from the two games where we were scumbuddies. I agree with general statements that he hasn't dedicated as much time as in scum games to looking town, and the early push on ffery for not seeing what he expected her to seems like a nice early attack on a power player to early attack on me. A lot of his talk relies on other players and based on feelings in other games, and the majority of his pushes lack the low fruit strikes that seemed rampant in his other scumgames (for example, calling goodmorning town for town lurk early closed that option off early when it was something I expected BRO to go for as scum). Concerning bits are mostly based on BRO not hitting the "unfakeable factor" that a lot of players have seem to hit or come close to hitting, lacking something strong that I can point to and declare "yes, this is town", and having a good scumgame with a pretty impressive range. BRO would probably be a decent townread in a more normal game.

SSK read is a special case, not something to be dealt with today.

Nacho you've spent pages of back and forth with Muffin, and yet Desperado is your strongest scum read. I don't remember you putting a lot of effort into sorting him. Has your exchange with muffin made your read weaker?

[geists]

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.I would appreciate

improved quality controls

on your posts so that I can work with you, though.

I'll need more detailed feedback. IIRC you aren't happy with my quantity of posts, but if anything the rate will have to increase if I take more of a point role than I have thus far.

[MafiaSSK]

I don't think geists should be given the trust as being such an official town leader. Natirasha is very reactive, and that's really not good when deciding on a very rushed or heated lynch.

[geists]

There are no such things as official town leaders. There are leadership vacuums and there are players (usually multiple players in most games) who fill them. And they do that only with the cooperation of the majority of players.

[MafiaSSK]

There are no such things as official town leaders. There are leadership vacuums and there are players (usually multiple players in most games) who fill them. And they do that only with the cooperation of the majority of players.

No shit. Do tell me more about how mafia is played.
What I was doing was indirectly commenting on the quote that you quoted. Providing my own opinion on why thinking of geists as a town leader is badidea.

[geists]

There are no such things as official town leaders. There are leadership vacuums and there are players (usually multiple players in most games) who fill them. And they do that only with the cooperation of the majority of players.

No shit. Do tell me more about how mafia is played.
What I was doing was indirectly commenting on the quote that you quoted. Providing my own opinion on why thinking of geists as a town leader is badidea.

Who did you protect last night?

[MafiaSSK]

There are no such things as official town leaders. There are leadership vacuums and there are players (usually multiple players in most games) who fill them. And they do that only with the cooperation of the majority of players.

No shit. Do tell me more about how mafia is played.
What I was doing was indirectly commenting on the quote that you quoted. Providing my own opinion on why thinking of geists as a town leader is badidea.

Who did you protect last night?

You. Because you are an important asset to town.

[geists]

That's fucking insane given the masons claim.

Nati would vote you here and now for that answer. Geists probably wants to see what happens overnight. I can't emphasize "probably" enough.

[Empire]

Day 2, Votecount 17

Ser Arthur Dayne (4)

-

Bert, Desperado, pieguyn, Cephrir

Desperado (3)

-

Sakura Hana, MC Maraca, Casso the King of Seals

Casso the King of Seals (2)

-

goodmorning, DOMO

pieguyn (1)

-

Norlkaz

Cephrir (1)

-

Ser Arthur Dayne

Bert (1)

-

KoreanBBQ

Not Voting (6)

-

geists, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, MafiaSSK, zMuffinMan, Generic, BROseidon

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! Deadline is on January 11th at 10:10 AM EST (expired on 2014-01-11 11:10:12)

Mod Notes

-

BROseidon is V/LA until January 3rd. Generic is V/LA until Sunday.

[DOMO]

Not buying that claim one bit. It looks all the more dodgy because SSK took so long to respond to that when both were online. Had that been an instant answer I'd be at least a little less suspicious.

I'm still not lynching him today though. It's possible that we're multiball and he blocked a kill. If he's not town doc, then it's very probably me or geists dying tonight. And if he is town doc, then he should literally toss a coin between us, meaning scum either take a 50-50 or take a clean pick at someone else.

[goodmorning]

Cephrir - I find the strongest reasoning for him being town his vote on me after he misinterpreted a joke from me as calling him scum; I'm sure scumRir knows that he would be expected to manufacture an attack on me whenever I call him scum, but it was so quick and kneejerk and natural (he didn't even attempt to clarify whether I was actually suspecting him or not) that I have trouble seeing him pulling it off as scum.

Or the two of you are Scum together and thus it doesn't matter whether you were actually suspecting him.

Plus, assumption of daytalk.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

Just facepalmed myself because I remembered a game where Nacho failed to pick up on the most obvious cop result crumb I've ever seen in a mafia game. He failed so hard he actually thought the post was scummy and voted the cop.

Retracting the hell out of this.

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

Geists being our Official Town Leader is something I approve of.

This may be the sanest thing from you all game.

I'm fine with a casso wagon.

vote casso

Why

OH LOOK FFERY I'M DOING IT AGAIN

Special preview from my ISOing work:
SCUM
Casso - I don't know if I can really articulate this, but I am getting badfeels from posts like 332, 335, 366, 368, and I'm going to stop that now because too many posts. I also don't like Nacho's reasoning on me (or Thor's, but especially Nacho's) in 379.

Spoiler: a closer look at this

Nacho claims I start slowly. It's a pretty weak reason to not be that interested in someone, even if it was true.
Here are the games which I played with Nacho (or hydra thereof):
N1305 - I was Scum, replaced in, did not start off slowly in any sense.
MN1420 - I was SK, he replaced in, I'll grant my start there was slow.
O494 - I was Town, replaced in and shot in the same night. No start occurred.
AMURIKA - I was Town, he was Mod, my start was not what I'd call slow.
M189 - I was Town, replaced in early D1, start in that game was both quick and silly.
M217 - I was Town, replaced in lategame, he was Mod, my start in that game was slow and baffled.
O514 - I was Scum, replaced in, my start in that game was average speed.
O519 - I was Town, replaced in early, my start... speed was not the noticeable thing about it.

So tl;dr I'm calling bullshit on speed being a reason not to be interested.

Granted I stopped citing posts after the 300s but there wasn't any reason to make it a page long when it could just be a paragraph.

I'm fairly confident you've seen a "Nacho showing off how much work he's doing" post, and it usually comes with limitless quote stripes and is followed by coasting, coasting, and more coasting.

"As scum my play looks more like thus and so" is on my list of statements that come more often from scum than town.

NEW SANEST THING

Yeah wow that claim was sketch as hell

wtf

[Bert]

Yes SSK's action claim is filled with horse manure

And also GM I am so proud of your work, you deserve a gold star

[Bert]

Vote: SSK

[geists]

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

But is it scummy?

It was a long, grueling game and this happened without a whole lot of fanfare early on day 2. I was already dead so I couldn't hoot or stomp around in hobnailed boots about it.

If he remembered that particular missed crumb given I also played that game, I'm pretty sure he would have pointed it out no matter what his alignment in this game.

[goodmorning]

Interesting he didn't say anything about it.

But is it scummy?

I don't know, but it's certainly interesting.

[Norlkaz]

Do what you must, Geists. I'd rather not create more posts discussing creation of posts.
Having a Dictator is productive. Otherwise scum will make whichever town leader wants to lynch town win out.

Broseidon is probably town and potentially a mason.

I'd say that Nacho's Sangres wall had substantially more Bite.
I grant that he stacked reasons together in a similar manner, but Sangcho used emphasis in a way that made it clear his paragraphs had purpose beyond existing.
VOTE: Casso

I don't have a raging urge to lynch SSK.
My latest scumteam guess goes:
Bert
Ceph
Casso
SAD is a possibility.
Sakura is a possibility.
I must reread PieGuy.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Cephrir, a few questions:
1) Explain your reversal of read on me. Everything you quoted in your catch up post seemed like you found it scummy.
2) Are you serious about the posts of Sakura that you quoted saying that you agreed why she was run up?

OK, thought I already answered these.

1) It never reversed. I did quote a few things I found scummy, but still wasn't scumreading you.
2) Mostly, I guess.

Nearly all of your catch-up posts about me seemed to indicate that you found my posts scummy. Your townread doesn't make sense based on your catchups.

You also seem to have pre-conceived positions about what the ideal gamestate is and a lot of things that you say about other players are generally compliments when they meet this ideal or disagreement when they don't meet it. For instance, some of the things that were concerning.

149: First instance of voting StuffedCrust (it is the wagon you push all the way to the end of D1)

451: Says that scumreading you is a towntell. Why? You weren't involved in the game, were inactive and lurkish. Certainly you are a good target for the scum to suspect and probably push a lynch on. Town are potentially also likely to give you slack for it and not lynch you just for being disengaged.

954: You claim that GoodMorning's posts suck and that your "eyes glaze over" everytime you read a Generic post. I can't relate to this. You later says the same thing about my posts. An interesting observation is that you don't explain why GoodMorning's posts suck or why you liked Brian's quote-stripe. This matches up with your read on me where you don't explain much at all. I will check through your other games to see if it is a hallmark of your town or scum meta. Help from those who played with Cephrir before (Nacho, ffery, Cabd, BRO, and others) will be appreciated.

957: Dislikes MafiaSSK's entrance into the game and agrees conditionally with DOMO saying that you are "a fan" of DOMO snap-voting on that.

960: ...What? (This might become important later on a meta-basis).

961: Agrees with my objection to Pie's GoodMorning read. Also tells Pie "

It's not a stats course? THAT'S the line you're going with? xD

"
There are several other interestingly worded quotes in this post and is worth checking out:
1. "

Why the hell are you townreading me again?

"
2. "

And then you let this go immediately? Huh?

"
3. "

Could it be? DO I actually like a Thor post? Call that rapture guy, I think the world is ending.

"

969: "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" in response to MafiaSSK possibly expressing dislike of his post.

1132: Agrees with DOMO's position about StuffedCrust (you had previously suspected Stuffed Crust so it falls into my pre-formed positions argument)

1147: "

Whaddaya know, SSK is posturing to suspect me later.

" - Preformed position: SSK is scum.

1529: Why is everyone voting this
I just
Don't
Understand (This is said with regards to DOMO)

1571: Gurl lookit dat 180

---

The most striking thing I found from your posts is that you generally seem to have a pre-formed position in your mind. Whenever someone agrees with that position, you encourage and cheerlead them. Whenever someone disagrees, you critisize them for it. I'll point out several examples.

Firstly, you believe that you are scummy as shown in post 451 and you later townread people who are scumreading you. I find your townread on Geists for scumreading you very comfortable and completely lacking doubt - you are too self-assured about their scumread.

Secondly, you don't like/scumreads MafiaSSK as evidenced in post 957. Your further posts towards MafiaSSK are critical such as the "

eeeeeee

" in post 969. I am not exactly sure what the "

eeeeeee

" is supposed to accomplish from a town POV but it seems as though it is a declaration of your position. These declarations show up in many other ways such as the rhetorical "

...What?

" in post 960. I am going to term these sort of things "

Rhetorical expressions of surprise.

" It is basically when you take a position and wonder why everybody doesn't share that opinion. Other examples include showing up at random times and asking why certain things are hapenning. For instance "why are we lynching X" when a quick glance at the previous few pages should give the questioner all he needs. It is more pronounced when the questioner doesn't actually want to know the answer but wants to take a position that lynching X is absurd and so wants to pretend that everyone lynching X is crazy/scummy.

Thirdly, your position on Stuffed Crust is that they are scum and you therefore agrees everytime someone pushes on them with examples being 1132.

Fourthly, the position on me. 2744, you say that my post rubs you the wrong way. 3695, it again seems like you scumread me. You mention that when you read my posts you like them but it is rare. I am assuming it means that it is only the rare post that gives you a townread which doesn't make sense with your final position. 4021, when you give a plus sign to Thor's terribad vote on me is another example. My first concern is your pre-formed position that votes on me are good and thumbs-upping everyone who does it regardless of how terrible their reasoning is. My second concern is that this position makes no sense with your apparent "townread" on me. Your motivations and thought processes are unclear. 4289 is another example.

Fifth, your position on Pie is mostly one of random criticism of his posts which I can't really relate with.

I also wonder why you have never taken a step back and reconsidered things after championing the SC lynch D1. All you did was show up from time to time saying that SC ought to be lynched. They finally were lynched. They flipped town. Now, you pop up from time to time talking about how Arthur needs to be lynched. 4379 is deeply troubling. You had a similar stance toward SC - you couldn't wait to see them lynched. Each day, all you do is try to get someone lynched. There is no effort at scumhunting or sorting people. You barely ask any questions. You are merely quoting things you don't like with nonsensical phrases like "yuck," "eww," "eeeee" etc which does jacksquat to help me understand your thought process. I don't see any effort from you to actually find scum as opposed to just lynching someone. Your case on Arthur is weak. It is not the kind of stuff that yields scum lynches.

[Desperado]

unvote
vote: casso

omgus is a hell of a drug

[Desperado]

and my d1 scumteam nightmares are looking more realistic by the day

that is problematic

[goodmorning]

hey

hey cephrir

guess what

you waited too long to bus this time

i am coming for you tomorrow

now that i have the time and energy for this game

things are good

good things

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

This is Nati's scumpile. I'm putting some of my own thoughts around it.

Pieguyn - Nati has a scumread. I have a mixed read. There was one post in his back and forth with me that I really liked, and I backed off on that basis. But there is a sentence in another post I keep coming back to because it feels fucking fake.

ffery what the fuck you better not be scum

BBQ - I keep thinking about Cabd pushing through a TiP day 1 lynch in the Xenologue game, and getting away with such a bad "misread". GiF's confidence in reading Varsoon is pretty high. But, his offering to be the lynch instead (at a moment when I was seriously considering doing the same) and his characterization of the lynch as a Christmas Miracle when we lynched a town PR just feels like something that scum wouldn't do. Nati found his SSK lynch post at the start of day 2 very troubling.

I don't take offers of self-lynched seriously and I doubt anyone would lynch someone just because they offered to be lynched which makes it a fine gambit for scum. I am null on KBBQ.

Sakura Hana - the blacklist tell isn't as convincing as all that, the more we think about it, and there are too damn many players in our town pile.

Can you link those scumgames where Sakura gave up and self-voted? I think I might be able to do a compare and contrast with her towngames to see if there are underlying motivations that can be spotted.

Desperado - Nati's gut read, lack of presence. I feel like he's not putting a lot of effort into pushing his reads, and not doing much to organize town, which I associate with town-Desp. Nati has had good luck spotting scum-Desp lately

It is true that town-Desp makes his presence felt more strongly. I am not sure if this is related to his meta-change and it being a large game but I get a different vibe from his posting than I do from the game I modded or past games with him.

I'm finding it really difficult to move these four out of my nullpile and not also move Norlkaz and zmuffin. But, Norlkaz is an almost complete unknown, and if zmuffin will finish those ISOs and post some reads I'll have something solid to base a read on.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Who did you protect last night?

You. Because you are an important asset to town.

This doesn't make sense given your posts about Geists:

I don't think geists should be given the trust as being such an official town leader. Natirasha is very reactive, and that's really not good when deciding on a very rushed or heated lynch.

So the best that both ffery and you can come up with is gut? Super weak, Nat.

Nat hasn't posted much on geists in this game. As such, I have no real read on them. I don't understand ffery and ffery doesn't understand me.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I read through Nacho's reads list in the Perpetual MYLO game and it doesn't seem similar to those reads-lists at all. Nacho's reads morph to fit what is generally accepted to the town. For instance the Bert townread after being questioned on why Bert is an Angel in waiting. The Pieguyn townread after it becomes apparent that he won't be lynched considering I showed in detail that he is playing to his town meta. I also strongly disagree with the Cephrir townread.

Top scumreads in order:
Cephrir
MafiaSSK
Casso

VOTE: Cephrir

[Cephrir]

The most striking thing I found from your posts is that you generally seem to have a pre-formed position in your mind. Whenever someone agrees with that position, you encourage and cheerlead them. Whenever someone disagrees, you critisize them for it. I'll point out several examples.

I actually never have a preformed position in mind, unless it's one I have already stated...

Firstly, you believe that you are scummy as shown in post 451 and you later townread people who are scumreading you. I find your townread on Geists for scumreading you very comfortable and completely lacking doubt - you are too self-assured about their scumread.

It's hardly exclusively for that reason; plus I think I'm improving! YMMV.

Secondly, you don't like/scumreads MafiaSSK as evidenced in post 957. Your further posts towards MafiaSSK are critical such as the "

eeeeeee

" in post 969. I am not exactly sure what the "

eeeeeee

" is supposed to accomplish from a town POV but it seems as though it is a declaration of your position. These declarations show up in many other ways such as the rhetorical "

...What?

" in post 960. I am going to term these sort of things "

Rhetorical expressions of surprise.

" It is basically when you take a position and wonder why everybody doesn't share that opinion. Other examples include showing up at random times and asking why certain things are hapenning. For instance "why are we lynching X" when a quick glance at the previous few pages should give the questioner all he needs. It is more pronounced when the questioner doesn't actually want to know the answer but wants to take a position that lynching X is absurd and so wants to pretend that everyone lynching X is crazy/scummy.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thirdly, your position on Stuffed Crust is that they are scum and you therefore agrees everytime someone pushes on them with examples being 1132.

Why is that scummy or anything but normal?

Fourthly, the position on me. 2744, you say that my post rubs you the wrong way. 3695, it again seems like you scumread me. You mention that when you read my posts you like them but it is rare. I am assuming it means that it is only the rare post that gives you a townread which doesn't make sense with your final position. 4021, when you give a plus sign to Thor's terribad vote on me is another example. My first concern is your pre-formed position that votes on me are good and thumbs-upping everyone who does it regardless of how terrible their reasoning is. My second concern is that this position makes no sense with your apparent "townread" on me. Your motivations and thought processes are unclear. 4289 is another example.

I read all your posts now. Most of them are quite good, but I don't want to let myself give you a free pass, I could see you being that good.

Fifth, your position on Pie is mostly one of random criticism of his posts which I can't really relate with.

That's nice?

I also wonder why you have never taken a step back and reconsidered things after championing the SC lynch D1. All you did was show up from time to time saying that SC ought to be lynched. They finally were lynched. They flipped town. Now, you pop up from time to time talking about how Arthur needs to be lynched. 4379 is deeply troubling. You had a similar stance toward SC - you couldn't wait to see them lynched. Each day, all you do is try to get someone lynched. There is no effort at scumhunting or sorting people. You barely ask any questions. You are merely quoting things you don't like with nonsensical phrases like "yuck," "eww," "eeeee" etc which does jacksquat to help me understand your thought process. I don't see any effort from you to actually find scum as opposed to just lynching someone. Your case on Arthur is weak. It is not the kind of stuff that yields scum lynches.

I am playing like trash this game and accepted sometime on D1 that I will probably be lynched at some point. I see little point in trying hard at scumhunting (which I don't do a ton of anyway ever because I have no confidence in my ability at it and would rather let others do it for me for the most part). I would venture to say I don't have much case on Arthur at all, but that doesn't really bother me. Somewhere along the line this game and I got onto separate wavelengths or something? And I just don't give enough fucks to take the like 4 rereads it would probably take me to fix that. In conclusion, meh.