Mini 1563 - Vampire: The Masquerade Mafia (Fourth Evening)

[Kagami]

Alright, from my role PM and mod correspondence, which I see no harm in sharing:

- It's unclear (or was to me) from the rules, but the recipient of the diablerie is the person who is nommed the most (essentially, noms are votes) with ties broken randomly.

- I'm almost certainly the only member of my clan in this game.

- I can't receive the diablerie on a mislynch, so I generally shouldn't be nommed (if I win diablerie on a mislynch, the vitae is lost).

- There is a human player in the setup and/or a player who can gift human blood as a means of restoring vitae.


VOTE: Spyrex

[Kagami]

My abilities are very much related to my clan, and while the most important one is not going to be guessed based on clan alone, it's similar enough to what would be guessed that I am unwilling to clan-claim.

Might be good to discuss nom-claiming tomorrow, but doing it now is a bad idea.

Anything that lets us determine who to give vitae in a role-based way also tells scum who to kill. Seems like a pretty bad idea.

[Kagami]

@LLD: Are you scumreading displaced and/or squirrel girl?

[Kagami]

Hey, Kagami, wanna sheep me? I have a fuzzy ail, how can I be wrong?

I have some strong beliefs about a few players' alignments, but I'd like for everyone to check in before I place a srs biz vote.

Vonflare, the goodfather, and MonkeyMan576 should all weigh in on the current gamestate, imo.

[Kagami]

For me, clan and role are related, though other people being less tight-lipped about clan membership makes me think that this isn't universally true. Post 17 is largely a response to LLD's post right above it.

I have abilities, but at least one of them is strictly disadvantageous. I'd be surprised if we have vanilla vampires, so I'm not concerned with people knowing that I have more that just the "no vitae from mislynch" ability.

Agreed that 26 could be eagerness to use a fake-claim, but I'm reading it as legit for now. At the very least, he's claimed an important/powerful vampire whom I'm unwilling to lynch on day 1. Kthx answered the question for him, so I'm not bothered that he didn't do it himself. Speaking of which:

Your quote from kthx about aronis's "whatever we're called statement" is one that I've been thinking about too. My role PM identifies me in pretty much the exact same format as aronis used in 26. It does not say "Vampire blah blah" like other games might have "Town blah blah," and the opening flavor doesn't say that the "town" are all vampires. SG's pseudo-miller claim and my statement that there's possibly a human in the setup may directly contradict that which is "so obv" to kthx. If you were completely ignorant of flavor, you might even have a vampire pm and not know you're a vampire. Nowhere is it directly stated in my PM that I am a vampire, only that I want to eliminate threats to vampires.

It's neither incredibly obvious nor necessarily accurate that town are all vampires, which makes aronis's confusion reasonable enough that to attack it is unwarranted.

[Kagami]

...

This is enough to narrow your clan down to one of 2 for me.

Really? Your flavor knowledge must be much more complete than mine. I've been piecing things together by reading through the white wolf wiki, have you played this game much?

[Kagami]

@SG: not that in particular, but for other reasons-

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kthx

[Kagami]

ftr- I don't think the displaced nom idea was scummy, just more relevant when discussed closer to the actual Lynch.

@Kagami- What are your thoughts on the recent LLD/displaced discussion of ranking clans?

@displaced- What are your thoughts on vonflare's read of Katsuki?

do we really have a Katsuki and a Kagami in this game? ffs, I'm going to mix them up every damn time.

I'm interested in the spyrex-LLD reachout. I was scumreading LLD earlier, but some of her recent posts have reversed that. There's been a setup-related tell I've been looking for that has already yielded a very strong displaced townread, so I am quite happy to observe the flavor/setup spec.

[Kagami]

But the idea has merit. although, the risk is that the whole town could not vote to put the diablerie on the SAME lurker. But it would add wifom to the scum's nightkill (I think we can safely assume that they have a NK.)

but on the other hand, PRs have more incentive to be active, so sending diablerie to lurkers might not be the best strategy if they all have no powers.

Any other thoughts?

PRs have every incentive to be inactive; powerful PRs often play like survivors for obvious reasons. The idea isn't terrible at all, though it involves an assumption I think is false.

[Kagami]

two reasons:

1. I don't think the ghouls just open up our caskets during the day, stab us with a tomato stake, and walk away. They drink our delicious vitae-filled blood and almost certainly gain that vitae. That seems almost certain to me, and I don't see them getting two opportunities to grab vitae per day especially given ...

2. They would easily control the diablerie if they can nom it. As displaced correctly said, without organization we have no chance of outvoting the day-chatting unified scumgroup. Even if they're forced to nom town, they would just push the diablerie on whoever they plan to kill. There's no chance the GreyICE and his reviewers missed that all the vitae would go to scum every day.

[Kagami]

If I'm right or mostly right, 96 is incredibly town-mindset.

[Kagami]

As a funny coincidence, I was discussing a setup idea similar to the vitae system with someone prior to this one starting.

One of the big things we were struggling to work out is how to avoid one group getting all the goodies, and to avoid strategies like that of marketplace mafia 2. Scum gets vitae through NK, town gets vitae through lynch is a fairly elegant way of doing it, which would be attainable only if the scum can't nom.

[Kagami]

If I'm right, there are breaking strategies available~

[Kagami]

Do you disagree with my belief that the scum don't get noms, LLD?

[Kagami]

What do you think of SG's idea of nomming a vig target?

[Kagami]

Wait.

Just had an idea.

Is it possible that the scum don't have a nightkill, just a vitae steal?

Becuase my role PM says that if I have no vitae, I die. And I think I can assume that all the vampires have this. So it would make sense that this mechanic would be used by the scum instead of NKs. Becuase either way, it still results in townies dead (scum's objective).

Thoughts? Maybe I'm wrong, but it WOULD provide the balance to the diablarie coordinated nomming. (vitae steal would be, I think, less powerful than a NK)

They're ghouls, not carebears. They kill.

My role PM does

not

say that I die if I run out of vitae.

[Kagami]

...

Becuase

my role PM

says that if I have no vitae, I die.

...

[Kagami]

What?

[Kagami]

I think people are wagoning Aronis for little or no reason and are overreacting to him OMGUSing very early in the game. Granted, he may not be very helpful in future days because of his defensiveness, but I don't think he should be written off this early.

OMGUSing? You have completely missed the reasoning behind the aronis scumreads. What do you think of the wagon?

And could you elaborate on why I'm scum?

[Kagami]

I'm pretty sure I already elborated. I said your "PR's have every reason to be inactive" post is an excuse for PR's to be inactive and lurk.

So does that mean you think I'm a PR who wants to lurk, or that I somehow want to entice the PRs into lurking, and have made this statement with the intent to cause that?

What about the rest of my posts? I've said many things about my theories on the setup and about the diablerie noms. If you think I'm scum, what does that mean about those?

And I already said I thought the aronis scumread was overblown, why would I think the wagon was any different?

Do you understand why aronis is being scumread?

[Kagami]

The original source of the aronis scumread is that he commented that he didn't know what the town-aligned faction was. Spyrex has been anything but unclear that he thinks that alone deserves a lynch.

Since then, there are other reasons to scumread him. He needlessly claimed a powerful vampire, which is something you'd think you would want to keep hidden. He said he's being scummy to make his scumgames easier, which is almost reason enough to be lynched right there, and arguably against site rules if he's town anyway.

There is plenty of motivation for the aronis wagon.

[Kagami]

He's obviously not a great player, but I don't see where that equates to obvscum. He could just be bad town.

My point is that it makes little sense to criticize a wagon that is fairly righteous without understanding why that wagon exists. I'm trying to decide if you're scum, or if you just felt like you had to post stuff and did without properly digesting the thread.

I still want what you think about my setup spec given that you think I'm scum.

[Kagami]

If I was defending Aronis, I could see the logic behind linking us, but I'm not. This, like most of what has gone on so far in this thread, is grasping at straws.

You did defend him though, you cut down and diminished the wagon on him. You could call it 'attacking the reasons to suspect Aronis' if you prefer, but I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

Also, ooooh, suddenly my select the random mid-ling player plot sounds brilliantly stupid again!

It's brilliantly necessary, with scum confirmed to be able to nom.

[Kagami]

I'm going for the 'get rid of the scummy players b/c one of them is probably Scum' combo.

Why'd you have to be conf town?

^he's conf town?

Dayvig doesn't make him conf-town, but his post history makes him close. He's clearly got an itchy trigger finger from the outset, and appears willing to let town-reads have some input on the shot (e.g. 85). Scum d3x would prob want to keep it under his hat for a surprise win if he makes it to lylo or save it for when he's under lynch-threat and could "conf-town" himself then.

Katsuki is obv lying about his role (or that it's anything like what he described) at this point, but I'm not sure how to interpret that.

I have too many scumreads and not enough townreads (High tier: displaced, SG, d3x; low tier: Spyrex). We kind of need to wait for the V/LAs and replaces. Now might be a good time to work out our diablerie plan.

I'd kind of rather give diablerie to someone other than d3x (who I don't want to see NKed) unless he needs it asap. I agree with spyrex that it should go to a low-tier townread (I'm down to give it to spyrex himself, atm, but depending on what happens with katsuki slot, that might be a good place too).

[Kagami]

I don't want to give vonflare diablerie, nor do I think there being uncertainty in the recipient is a good idea. If such a pool consisted of 3 or more people, then it's basically whichever among them scum chooses. A pool of two, even, means that it's scum pick among the two, most likely.

[Kagami]

Because I find people's ideas about it worth evaluating.

Also, I'm unwilling to lynch without a full town anyway.

[Kagami]

I don't want to give vonflare diablerie,

Are you calling me scum, or are you just saying that I shouldn't get diablarie because it would be better used elsewhere?

I am not townreading you.

To do a pool would require the pool to be only two people, both of whom are likely town. I'd still rather just pick one person, moderate townread; or even scumread with a claimed powerful ability.

[Kagami]

I don't want to give vonflare diablerie, nor do I think there being uncertainty in the recipient is a good idea. If such a pool consisted of 3 or more people, then it's basically whichever among them scum chooses. A pool of two, even, means that it's scum pick among the two, most likely.

Two people works. There are twelve people left. Probably 3 scum, 9 town. Scum all votes for one person. The town can still overcome that and if you pick two town. You have a win win with whoever gets it.

Let's say d3x and sprex are chosen. If all of the town votes for one of them, even if the scum vote elsewhere, we are guaranteed a majority.

Town won't all vote for one of them. The noms will be split. 4-5 means scum gets to choose, 3-6 means scum get their choice half the time even if it conflicts with town. 2-7 or better is pretty unlikely.

[Kagami]

...
What if we make a pool? For example, spyreX, katuski, and vonflare? Then people give it to whoever they want out of that group. That ways scum don't know who has it, but the town has some organization.

Imagine aronis is scum. What do you think of this suggestion?

[Kagami]

He picked specific people though, you think they're just randomish?

[Kagami]

vonflare, specifically, jumps out as an odd choice for a "middling" player

[Kagami]

I'm ok with an LLD diablerie.

[Kagami]

I would agree wholeheartedly.

[Kagami]

At the very least, I would prefer to know vonflare's alignment before worrying about aronis's

[Kagami]

I am very happy with this replace-in, if what I've heard is true~

[Kagami]

I also don't like letting d3x decide it unilaterally, and I don't think d3x should be nommed.

d3x nom would just mean he get's NKed, no question. Someone else nommed forces scum to either kill the nom, and we get to keep d3x, or they kill d3x and we have a living diablerist.

We're doing single nom. Pool makes no sense.

[Kagami]

To summarize, slightly redundant with what aronis says above:

The town faction is officially "Vampires," as determined by Monkey's flip. It is not certain that this means all town are vampires, but it does imply that.

My role PM suggests that human blood is a thing in the game and that it will restore vitae, meaning there's either a human in the setup or a vampire who can gift human blood or something like that.

The prince is GreyICE

scum are ghouls as implied by the ghouls telepathy rule (that also says scum have ghoul).

[Kagami]

EBWOP: also says scum have daychat.

Opening flavor pretty much says that scum are ghouls too, though our win condition is open-ended as to whether there's more than ghouls to eliminate

[Kagami]

Interesting, vonflare said something similar.

In my PM, it says how much vitae I have, but nothing about getting to 0 or how it deteriorates each day, etc. That information was only in the rule post for me.

Mine also doesn't directly state that I'm a vampire (though it is obvious from context and the fact that I have a clan and generation).

[Kagami]

Page 6...are you guys fucking serious with the "do scum get votes or not?"?!!!! Does nobody read MOD posts before posting their stupid ass comments and wasting space? FFS.

Was this obvious to you as soon as you started reading page 6, or did you look back at the rules to check to see if ghouls had noms? If you had to look back, then realize that not everyone does so, and there's alignment-indicative info to be had there~

[Kagami]

Opinions on the aronis slot, katsuki?

[Kagami]

Do you actually think he's scum, katsuki?

@kthx, don't worry about it; I was just trying to see if you'd claim to have already known that scum got a nom. GI didn't clarify it in the rules until after that discussion.

[Kagami]

VOTE: mnemonic

I like LLD for diab target. 2nd and 3rd choices would be Spyrex and katsuki.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:
Consider my vote on mnem.

We need to sort out diab.

[Kagami]

Scum has reason to pretend they didn't read the dayvigging, and make comments about the scumminess of the dayvigged; town really doesn't. He was caught acting.

Regarding my diab favorites: I think that if mnemonic flips scum, LLD is the obvious best choice. It's hard to imagine that LLD is scum if mnem is. Given town!LLD, we have a town player asking to be diabbed. Not going to speculate on why, but there are plenty of good reasons including WIFOM, so I say go for it.

If mnem flips town, I still feel good about LLD diab.

Spyrex feels town to me, and middlingly so. That's kind of where I'd like the diab recipient to be if there's not an obvious target.

Katsuki is on my list not because I think he's super towny, but because he has claimed an game-breaking night action (safe to assume the triple kill thing is nonsense, but he must have something awesome if he's town). Giving him diab would either force scum to kill him (katsuki NK would be great), or if they don't, his power would prob be something noticeable that will prove his alignment. If nothing happens and he doesn't have something amazing to say tomorrow, he's scum. Losing a diablerie to get an investigation seems like a good trade.

[Kagami]

I believe the point of 373 is not to deny knowledge that the dayvig occurred, but to explain the slip as "I knew there was a dayvig, but I had forgotten who the target was," which is itself damning, as it seems very unlikely to be true.

[Kagami]

...

I believe the point of 373 is not to deny knowledge that the dayvig occurred, but to explain the slip as "I knew there was a dayvig, but I had forgotten who the target was," which is itself damning, as it seems very unlikely to be true.

But he didn't try to do that. Even his defense doesn't go down that route.

He did, or more specifically that he "missed" the target. It's right there in his single, solitary post that addresses the slip in 255.

What defense?

[Kagami]

EBWOP: 355, not 255.

Vonflare is scum too.

[Kagami]

specifics:

264
370
394


general:

-Trying to be chummy/casual in a manner that doesn't feel genuine.
-I get the sense that you want to be a seen as a mediator
-aronis tunnel and pivot to mnemonic is bad; see 370

[Kagami]

Never played with AA, but I'd heard she obv-towns to nigh trust-tell levels. Not 100% sure we're seeing that here, but she has time anyway.

The "ripping into" is pretty one-sided, and a fairly standard sample of LLD's play. I find it somewhat hard to imagine LLD is scum here. If she is, then it would suggest that she inferred my aronis/vonflare read earlier, and projected it before I stated it myself as a means of gaining my trust. This would be pretty risky, too, since she'd be going out on a weird limb if she was wrong. While I don't think play of that level is beyond her, it still seems much less likely than that she was simply thinking the same thing as I was.

[Kagami]

Does what MD flips matter for Aronis's evaporation? Do you see them as scum buddies? If not, what is the reason for Aronis's evaporation when MD flips scum?

A less aggravated version of LLD-Syndrome. Honestly, he's on that list where I find myself not really

caring

as much about scum or not scum and more just wanting to indulge in the baser desires of murdering chaff.

We're about as fragmented and twirly as possible for an L-1 wagon. I can't get a bite *rimshot* into this game yet and its got slogitis WAY more than a game 18 pages in should.

We need to get back behind a plan and then just fuckin let that go to town and get to work on the murdering part. I need help sorting the masses out because there's some good reads but not ENOUGH at this point.

I wouldn't call it slogitis... If it weren't for the need to organize the diablerie, there would be a lynch already. The current consensus seems to be LLD, but I'd feel a little more comfortable with agreement or outright rejection from SG and d3x. My nom preferences have slightly changed:

1. LLD
2. Aronis
3. Katsuki


mnem, you should claim.

[Kagami]

"The current consensus seems to be LLD"? by who's decree?

You are townreading Aronis?

The only part of your post I agree with is the MnemD claim.

Diab opinions thus far:

Aronis, LLD, spyrex, displaced, and myself are ok with LLD diab.
d3x prefers kthx, d3x, or squirrel. Squirrel wants to sheep d3x.

[Kagami]

LLD is the only one who directly opposed my affirmation that scum don't get diab votes, and cut off any conversation of "breaking strategies" that might arise. I see very, very little scum motivation in doing that.

[Kagami]

This human miller-ism is weird, though. Even as a fake-claim, it makes no sense given that we, by default, have no reason to believe there are humans in the setup.

To be clear on my "humans in the setup" statement, it's not that I'm a human investigator or anything that would make these miller claims make more sense. In the clause that says I can't get vitae from diabing a fellow vampire, it specifically says that getting vitae from ghoul lynches or human blood is ok.

[Kagami]

VOTE: Aronis

So vampires vs ghouls, huh? Looks like interesting mechanics, gonna try and and familiarize myself with them

Anyway, this coupled with neither mnem nor goodfather CC'ing SG (or even finding her suspicious), makes this a pretty sure bet.

[Kagami]

Here is my claim, which you probably won't like: Town, with two different powers. I can appear human without using vitae, and the other one I don't want to post until after night one, but will if forced.

You are forced. Flavor claim too.

[Kagami]

I'm just wondering how this claim makes sense as either alignment.

If scum, why claim to be able to investigate as something non-town? Shouldn't this strike scum!MD as a phenomenally terrible claim? Surely scum would be given non-ridiculous fake-claims, no?

If town, why would one be able to elect to investigate as something that is non-town? Also makes no sense. Also, why wouldn't such a player be

extremely

suspicious of SG's claim?


I'm left with one of the following conclusions:

1) MD is really terrible town who was given a completely stupid role.
2) MD is terrible town and there is some special human in the setup that is important for town to keep alive. Scum have the ability to find him somehow, so players exist to foil their investigations
3) MD is really terrible scum and invented an idiotic fake-claim.
4) MD is terrible scum we're in multiball (vampire vs human vs ghoul). There are separate town players who can investigate to find humans and ghouls specifically. MD is a ghoul with the ability to investigate as human, which would make sense since it can be used to foil investigations once the human-finder is gone. If this is so, it was still stupid to truthfully claim this ability.

4 seems most likely to me.

[Kagami]

Is English not your first language?

This is suddenly plausible, but only on the assumption that you have completely failed to understand this role.

[Kagami]

Meh, it's a plausible claim, and a plausible fake-claim.

His original wording of it was completely off the wall, and this wording still implies that he doesn't understand the point of the ability (which I presume to be that he can avoid the vitae decay the rest of us have in exchange for being a miller that night). Hard to believe that he wouldn't have thought that through if it were a real claim.

Most importantly, neither he nor his predecessor found SG's claim suspicious or even comment-worthy, and it's too strange that goodfather stated that it's "vampires vs ghouls" if his role PM implied a third group.

Scum has been caught. LLD caught the scum. LLD is very likely town. LLD wants diab. Let's get this over with.

[Kagami]

Grey and I have talked before about theme games and the importance of giving fakeclaims/safeclaims to scum.

Look for theme games, I didn't have a specific game in mind when I said this.

Spoiler: tangent

Fake flavor claims make sense in games where flavor is alignment indicative, but I think fake role-claims are rubbish. They're just another "extra" info for the scum about which roles are in the game that they really shouldn't have. Scum really don't need any additional benefits, especially with the site meta as it is. One of the huge benefits of having PRs in your game is that it forces the scum to play more scummily, since they should have to hunt for valuable town roles. Why nerf that?

The answer I've heard is that if you don't, the game can easily be broken by mass-claim. If scum had to claim first, they'd very likely say something that will get them CC'd, or be forced to claim vanilla. If mods didn't want the game to be broken by mass-claim, a much more elegant solution than mod-provided fake-claim is to simply ignore the meaningless site meta of "there's only one role of a specific type in a game." Put two trackers or two doctors some games. You can also put zany low-utility roles/abilities in games to increase the pool of things scum could plausibly claim. Bam, no more need for the mod to directly favor the scum-team, and now you actually reward scum who are clever enough to come up with good claims.

To my mind, mod-given fakeclaims are one of the many mechanisms by which scumteams have been pampered to the extent that they win often by simply not posting or developing a meta of being useless/inscrutable. Once, I was talking to cabd about setups, and he brought up how marketplace mafia 2 had been "broken" by making a high-tier town group and a scummy group, and forcing the scummy group to transfer funds to the high-tier group. I thought this was hilarious, because "broken" here meant that the players found a way for scummy players to be guaranteed to lose on account of their scumminess, which is kind of how exactly how the game is supposed to work.

[Kagami]

Hammer coming soon to theatres near you. Pretty sure I'm nomming LLD regardless of flip.

[Kagami]

Speak your peace if you have anything to say pre-twilight.

[Kagami]

VOTE: mnemonic

wack.

[Kagami]

You'd better start liking me, Aronis; it sounds like I'm one of the few vampires who can actually make it to endgame before bleeding out.

I'm less sure about vonflare. I think I'd have been killed rather than SG if flare is scum. SG kill is odd in many ways.

I'm not in a hurry to lynch anyone.

p-edit: I think AA9 is town if not obviously so.


@katsuki and @AA9: if you are dying today, any reason not to claim what you did last night to spend all your vitae?

@LLD: Did you get diab? I'd also like to hear some mod meta, and what you think is likely happening in this setup.

[Kagami]

She's claimed that she will die once a lynch is achieved.

If she's scum, that means she made basically guiltied herself for day 3.

[Kagami]

Note that she said this after you had claimed 0 vitae, and I think it's pretty obvious whose going to get diab preference there. AA is wormfood tonight if she's town, and a freebie scum-lynch tomorrow if ghoul.

[Kagami]

She'd have to have a claim that absolutely knocks my socks off for me to diab nom her over you.

[Kagami]

AA9, why is LLD scum? I had thought so myself for the first half of day 1, but since then, I've only seen evidence that she's town. The only way I could possibly see her as scum is with spyrex, since otherwise the nightkill choice strikes me as incredibly non-LLD.

I think it's pretty clear that, unless AA9 or katsuki has some really awesome claim, we're giving diab to d3x. That being the case, it's probably a good idea for our walking corpses to claim if they did anything that we should know about, unless it's better to hold out for now. Remember that the flips don't give role information, so for the love of god, don't let the day end without telling us what you are.

Spyrex, I don't suppose you're thinking what I'm thinking about the setup? To my mind, there's a very straightforward way to ensure the balance of this vitae mechanic, and I think GI might have done it given all the 0 vitae claims.

VOTE: vonflare

[Kagami]

How would you balance a game in which half the town might suicide on day 2?

[Kagami]

No, that would be stupid. Kill flavor strongly implies that I was right about the scum kill anyway.

[Kagami]

I don't know anything other than that which is evident to reason.

Unfortunately, I'm somewhat crippled in that respect, since there are two important pieces of information that are not yet publicly available.

[Kagami]

Actually, just for fun aronis, let's do a thought experiment.

Imagine we lynch aronis today, and imagine he flips town.
We give diab to d3x.
AA9 and katsuki die from having no vitae.
Scum kills d3x.

day 3 begins with Me, LLD, Vonflare, Spyrex, Kthx, Displaced alive.

What do you think hypothetical town should do on day 3?

[Kagami]

Fuck IT!!!!! You know what you guys are all idiots. We are loosing this game and you're responsible for it.
KTHX - I am dont care what you think. So go and rub your nonsense else where...

I am Claiming
I have an ability learn someone's aura. If they are vampire or not but the ability consumes an additional vitae from me. So I spent 2 vitae to learn LLD Aura and i got no result on her. This either proves me that she is scum or someone blocked me. I dont see any reason that anyone would block me. And i am having very strong scum read on LLD since yesterday phase. so I am going with my actions and guts.

Now its your all choice what to do with this. I dont care anylonger. What mod told me is that i will die by evening if i dont receive any viate as my vitae count is zero at this moment.

Now deal with it!!!!!!!!

You say you received "no result," is that the same as you would receive from a ghoul, or does it indicate a block? I agree that it is exceptionally unlikely you were blocked.

[Kagami]

Katsuki, did you target LLD?

[Kagami]

If AA9 has a guilty rather than a block, then you should certainly claim. I agree that Aronis is town, btw, and was just using that as an example he would identify with.

[Kagami]

I can kind of guess what you'll claim regardless of alignment.

[Kagami]

May as well, then.

[Kagami]

The way she asked for it is pretty consistent with her claim, imo.

SG kill also seems unlikely from a team including LLD. I would expect her to kill someone who knows her well and whom she respects, like Spyrex.

I do find it a little weird that her ability is so cheap compared to these other abilities which seem to have completely drained their users. It also makes me curious what role monkey might have had; Earth meld is the only protean ability that makes sense as a role in this setting to me (mist form too, maybe, but that also seems like a commute).


Btw, given this is the second set of duplicate clan claims, I want to reiterate something from my first post: if someone claims my clan, they are lying.

[Kagami]

...
AA9 is caught Scum.
...

She's an un-CCed cop in a game with two millers, who has claimed she will die at the end of the day. Pretty much conf-town to me.


Oddly enough, Aronis somehow came up with the answer to my question without actually arriving at that answer in any logical fashion. He reminds me of Joe from Wayside school.

I think it's a two-man scumteam, one of whom is vonflare. It's ridiculous that we would be in mylo on day 2.

[Kagami]

... And what about the flavor?

They dragged her body into the sunlight

after they were finished with her.

Strangely her remains were burned and twisted like the skin had melted, but her features were all visible. It looks like she was still so human the sun didn't quite do the job, so they snapped her neck.

Unless this flavor is

extremely

inappropriate for young audiences, I interpret this to mean that the ghouls get vitae from their night kill.

[Kagami]

ok, I want to kill aronis.

[Kagami]

That must have been the human blood alluded to in my role PM. Did someone cause this event to occur?

[Kagami]

I don't think there's another dayvig, we're not in a hurry.

You'd better have a means of distributing that to our obv-towns with 0 vitae.

[Kagami]

/sigh... vonflare is still Scum and I really want him to swing.

yep.

[Kagami]

Aronis, explain this asap.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

[Kagami]

Worth noting:

The blood drop appears to have been timed to be exactly 48 hours after the beginning of the day. It might not be a good idea to end the day too soon on the off-chance there is scheduled to be another one before the "day" is over.

p-edit: lulz

[Kagami]

I already know who the other scum is *hint*vonflare*hint*

I'm just impatient, that's all. And not really sure that you did vig him.

Ugh. I just noticed this now.

[Kagami]

AA9: Aronis just caused you to die.

When asked for an explanation, he comes up with none until 30 minutes later, when he says "FFA, lulz." He grabbed the blood within a minute of it being posted.

He has a ridiculous claim that completely doesn't fit his flavor, and implies that a 6th generation vampire began the game with 5 or less vitae, and burns through it so fast that he essentially requires diablerie every day. It's also redundant with, and radically weaker than, LLD's claim, which didn't seem to bother him much.

[Kagami]

Because archangel has 0 vitae. That bag had her name on it.

[Kagami]

AA9 gets it. d3x gets diab. Super simple.

[Kagami]

aronis, are you around?

[Kagami]

Give us flavor names for your abilities, asap.

[Kagami]

Well, don't worry too much about the rest, time was up 5 minutes ago.

[Kagami]

If you were town, you would have claimed vitae-death immediately on day 2.

Your role would be nothing but a liability, and even if you weren't lynched today, you'd have no chance at all of surviving tomorrow (since you'd start with 0 vitae and wouldn't be guaranteed enough to survive even if you got diablerie). You also betrayed setup knowledge in 224. The good news is that we now know there are indeed only 2 scum.

Also, you claim to have begun with less vitae than I did, and I'm no Vykos.

[Kagami]

What???

How long does it take to pull up your PMs?

[Kagami]

I'm worried that a quicklynch forfeits the opportunity for more blood bags (which we really could use)

I asked grey about future bags, but naturally he wouldn't tell me if they'll come. He did agree that forcing us to wait for deadline would be a bad mechanic, but that seems like optimal play to me. =\

[Kagami]

boo.

[Kagami]

LLD was on top of things, imo.

I have comments on the setup, but want to see the role PMs first. Twas fun~

Thanks for modding, grey.

[Kagami]

And displaced was 100% right, of course. We just had a smaller margin for error than we should have had.

[Kagami]

rambling thoughts~

simplified version of roles- assuming town manages bags and diablerie well

town:

monkey: one-shot tracker
d3x: one-shot dayvig
emp/AA9: one-shot cop
displaced: slightly better than vanilla
LLD/shadoweh: commuter
katsuki: one-shot neighborizer
goodfather/nd: miller, voyeur
SG: miller
Aronis: redirector of sorts.

Suicidal players can be non-suicidal if they get a non-zero diablerie or a blood bag, which saves at most 2 townies per day phase. Blood bag still leaves them at critical next day. Assuming everyone uses an ability night 1, at least one of monkey, d3x, and AA9 dies.


Anti-town:

Me. Only through perfect aim and good luck was I pro-town. In general, my ability posed no major threat to the ghouls, with the exception of blood addicted vonflare. It is too easy for them to recover enough to stay alive, since they'd only lose one per night and gain a decent amount on kill. It is certain death for town aligned players, however. On top of that, even if I hit ghoul every time, I would resist lynching them at all costs because lynching poisoned targets is playing against my win condition.


Scum:

spyrex is essentially a loud roleblocker
kthx and vonflare are goons


Most of the town power is the dayvig, the cop, and oddly enough, the vitae mechanic and the first blood bag.

In a functional town, where quick-grabbing the blood bag without obvious need is a scumclaim and the diab nom is properly organized, the vitae mechanic is mostly going to limit powers to one-shot. On top of that, though, it makes "I'm out of vitae" an extremely high probability town-tell. It was completely obvious that d3x and AA9 were town during day 2, and if AA9 got the bag and d3x got the diab (or the other way around) town got 2 high-prob innos through game mechanics alone. Scum had no way to know that vampires were so limited in their vitae, so it's very unlikely they'd claim similarly.

Scum were also shut out of claiming "no vitae" once two+ town did it, because they would then have a very good chance of not getting any and being obv-scum the next day. Meanwhile, both townies who were out should have survived because of the blood bag that no one knew would come.

The power-stealing abilities of the scum seems pretty low utility. Mine is the only one worth getting that they'd have a possibility of using, and would be somewhat swingy if they nabbed it.

Interestingly, it was confirmed to the two millers either that they're both town or that scum have fake-claims. This came up when ND called himself a catiff instead of a caitiff, but this wasn't noticed. Minor note there, since it's not surprising that scum would have fake-claims anyway.

I think SG's solution to the diablerie is the only viable one. Leaving it to chance means the ghouls likely will get it, and there's not really any situation where nom-claiming the next day is going to narrow things down enough to justify the massive loss to town that would come if they miss a diab. LLD nom day one was absolutely optimal. Night actions night 1 were not.

I'm actually a little disappointed in how the diablerie-ing worked out as a mechanic, which is in large part due to vitae constraints. All the diabs beyond the first (assuming functional town) were pretty much mechanical since there is always someone with no vitae left. I was hoping it would be something that encourages players to be obv-town so they'd get it. Town players being incentivized to appear town is a sign of a good setup, imo.

Modkill was justified, but I think we should have gotten to nom for diab. The loss of diab organizing ability is punishment enough. I think the purpose of the "disadvantage your team as much as possible" clause is to prevent strategic modkills (e.g. trying to get yourself modkilled as town because you're the lead wagon, deadline is approaching, and it doesn't look like the votes will come in time) or other instances where the modkill benefits that player's team. This effectively gave scum an extra kill.

[Kagami]

EBWOP: ignore the suicidal bit, that was something I forgot to delete when I modified my role list~

[Kagami]

I already knew you were the last scum, so I might be biased, but I thought using your power on shadoweh should have been treated as a scum-claim.

Town-spyrex would have used it as an investigation and targeted displaced, especially since he might be worried about getting NKed himself, only scum-spyrex would use it on shadoweh, which is clearly a move to persuade rather than investigate. Using it on shadoweh makes especially little sense as town, since if she were actually scum, her power would probably be ascetic, not commute.

[Kagami]

And you can't really blame it on drunken impulse, she had the entire night from when spyrex used his ability to when the thread opened to think the situation through.