Newbie 1497 (Game Over)

[Tr1ckster]

Are you seriously debating with me that your thoughts didn't change but that you simply reconsidered and that confuses you as to what I was saying?

I did give reasons already - do you need me to quote them again? Ask for it when you answer my original question and I'll do so.

What are you saying here? Could you rephrase?

I'm saying that I reconsidered for two reasons: It will be hard to lynch him later in the day because the momentum would be lost... and because you must have some good reasons now that you're town.

Hm. Please explain to me why it was a good idea to lynch him then. If you want to link me somewhere or quote yourself, that's fine. I reread your ISO and I didn't see any reasons we should lynch early rather than later.

When you are scum do you have a hard time figuring out a player that is pro-town and that town won't mislynch?

The way you phrased this confuses me. Are you saying that it's a good idea to give reads lists when you're scum?

[Not_Mafia]

Thor, what do you think of Hemp right now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BlueBloodedToffee: Most of your thoughts there (post 85) are based on the supposition that HempHHH and Not_Mafia are mafia together. I'm not a fan of trying to associate scumbuddies together before any scum have flipped; however, that aside, Not_Mafia's agression towards HempHHH would make that partnership... unintuitive, in my opinion. Do you disagree?

Supposing that you somehow knew Not_Mafia was... well, not mafia, what is your read on HempHHH in that case?

I was looking for a reaction from either Hemp or NM. Hemp replied with a weird question which didn't really respond to anything that I wrote and NM pretty much ignored it. I'm not really sure what to make of that from either of them. In addition, I am by no means claiming I have found both scum on day one within a couple of days, that would be preposterous. I'm simply searching for information, a failed attempt it would seem.

UNVOTE:

OK, let's see what we got going on here.

I really, really don't like how quickly Thor jumped on the NM wagon. You seemed to be OK with an early D1 lynch, which is obviously bad for town. However, you're an IC and I don't believe you would be silly enough to do this as scum. Why did you feel the need to do this? Was it purely down to NM's self-vote?

There's also the fact that NM is coming across as scummy so far in this thread and I highly doubt you would put your newbie scum partner under that much early pressure. So, at this point, I have a slight town read on Thor and a slight scum read on NM.

NM is also not being very helpful so far either. Strange posting without much direction/content. Even if he is town, he is going to need to up his game if he is going to help out in any way.

Tr1ckster is coming across weird to me. I was developing a town-read on him after the first couple of pages, but then his willingness to throw his vote around and possibly be OK with an early D1 lynch without any real good reason yet concerned me. Not sure what to make of him yet.

Aquanim and Madonna come across as null/slight town reads so far, although Madonna's comments on being happy to watch an early D1 lynch are again, a little concerning. We have 2 weeks for a reason, let's use this time to actually come up with some useful reads/information for a lynch.

You didn't mention Hemp or Tynn. Is there a reason for this?

Also... I would shy away from reads lists for now ... especially this early in the game. They can help scum figure out who to NK that night by telling you who you're willing to lynch tomorrow, among other things.

I didn't mention them because I didn't think they were very active, I pretty much focused on the main situation that was happening (NM's self-vote, early day lynch) and didn't really look at anything else. I guess they just flew below my radar for that post. I also don't post reads/thoughts on everyone if I feel I don't have a lot to add/anything useful.

I have no problem posting reads. Obviously it's early, and there is a high probability that most, if not all, are wrong but it helps to provide some sort of information and can provoke discussions/questions.

Is it obviously bad for town? Why? Also, do you think an early L-1 wagon is also obviously bad?

I felt the need to do it to try to educate Not_Mafia that he was playing provably badly, and also to see if he might be scum. I still lean that it was a slightly scummy reaction to my vote but don't feel strongly about it.

Why do you find my vote the only one worth questioning on his wagon? I didn't put him in lynch range alone, but I was the only one moving 'too fast' in your mind?

It's bad for town because 2 weeks worth of discussion can go down the pan, that could be a lot of potential information that isn't only useful for D1 but can also be used later in the game. To an IC, I thought this would have been fairly obvious. If someone had come in, and not paid attention to what was going on so far, and voted for NM, we would have lost a lot of information.

I don't really have much experience of L-1 wagons. However, trying to make somebody claim this early seems really bad, and only good for scum. If NM had to claim a power role to save his life, he could lie of course but let's just assume he doesn't, town are at a huge disadvantage with a power role exposed. Again, I'm not sure why I have to explain this to an IC. L-1 wagons are good for applying pressure and increasing activity for sure, but that was really early and I'm sure it was warranted.

I had a problem with your vote because a) you're an IC who looked super happy to lynch straight away and b) you voted for him in your very first post knowing he already had 3 votes and there was a chance somebody could lynch him by mistake.

[Tr1ckster]

I didn't mention them because I didn't think they were very active, I pretty much focused on the main situation that was happening (NM's self-vote, early day lynch) and didn't really look at anything else. I guess they just flew below my radar for that post. I also don't post reads/thoughts on everyone if I feel I don't have a lot to add/anything useful.

Hm.

*takes notes*

I would be careful about letting people fly underneath your radar. I think it's interesting that you said you don't post reads/thoughts on everyone if you feel you don't have a lot to add/anything useful... but two posts later you post some very useful stuff on Hemp.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hm.

*takes notes*

I would be careful about letting people fly underneath your radar. I think it's interesting that you said you don't post reads/thoughts on everyone if you feel you don't have a lot to add/anything useful... but two posts later you post some very useful stuff on Hemp.

Like I said, I glossed over the information and focused on the main activity points. I believe it was Aquanim who asked me about the Hemp/NM situation also and I was responding to their post.

[HempHHH]

@HempHHH

: When you say "one of the more experienced people is mafia", who in this game do you consider as "experienced"?

Also, is there something in particular about the play of the "experienced people"

as a group

which makes you think this?

I think a SE is a mafia

[HempHHH]

Why else would someone self-vote on Day One though ?

I explained that in one of the posts you quoted. Why are you avoiding answering my questions?

What questions ? I am not reading previous pages

[Tr1ckster]

I think a SE is a mafia

Is there a reason for this or are you saying that the moderator set up their game so that there is an SE on the mafia team? Because the mafia teams are randomly chosen. It could be the IC and an SE. It could be two newbies. It could be an SE and a newbie. It could be the IC and a newbie. Any combination is possible, the numbers are randomly generated.

[HempHHH]

I think a SE is a mafia

Is there a reason for this or are you saying that the moderator set up their game so that there is an SE on the mafia team? Because the mafia teams are randomly chosen. It could be the IC and an SE. It could be two newbies. It could be an SE and a newbie. It could be the IC and a newbie. Any combination is possible, the numbers are randomly generated.

Just a gut feeling, I mean your yelling at NM and your trying to put suspicion on me, so for now I am keeping my vote on you

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@HempHHH

: When you say "one of the more experienced people is mafia", who in this game do you consider as "experienced"?

Also, is there something in particular about the play of the "experienced people"

as a group

which makes you think this?

I think a SE is a mafia

These posts really are not helping anyone, it's barely a contribution. You're making nonsensical claims with nothing to back up what you are saying.

VOTE: HempHHH

This places you at L-2.

[HempHHH]

@HempHHH

: When you say "one of the more experienced people is mafia", who in this game do you consider as "experienced"?

Also, is there something in particular about the play of the "experienced people"

as a group

which makes you think this?

I think a SE is a mafia

These posts really are not helping anyone, it's barely a contribution. You're making nonsensical claims with nothing to back up what you are saying.

VOTE: HempHHH

This places you at L-2.

Dude its the first day, how the hell do I know who is Mafia ?

[Tr1ckster]

Just a gut feeling, I mean your yelling at NM and your trying to put suspicion on me, so for now I am keeping my vote on you

You said you thought I was mafia before this stuff happened.

Dude its the first day, how the hell do I know who is Mafia ?

Well, you've got your vote on me and you're saying you think I'm mafia.

_______

@Hemp.

I'm not trying to put suspicion on you. I don't have to try at all.

It took two votes on you to get you to answer ANY questions, and you still use "I think an SE is mafia" as an excuse for your vote. You haven't explained WHY you think an SE is mafia, you refuse to explain just about anything. You backtrack as soon as a third vote is put on you by claiming not to know who's mafia. You haven't really responded to a single question, all we've gotten are a whole bunch of baseless claims from you.

You're making yourself suspicious without any of my help.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Dude its the first day, how the hell do I know who is Mafia ?

I'm not asking you to pick out both mafia on day one, although if you could that would be nice. What I am saying is that you're not contributing very much to the discussions that are ongoing. You're stating the same thing over and over, with nothing to back up what you're saying and it's just one line at a time.

Contribute, ask questions, discuss, provide information; that's all I am asking.

[tynn]

I wasn't saying those people look scummiest for not providing content, I was saying I wanted to see them post a bit more before ending my reaction test. I decided against this later

Oh boy, here we go: I did not state that you stated that the list of people looked scummiest for not providing content. I stated that my interpretation of the situation was that you called out people for being inactive while you yourself were also inactive. Capisce?

However... I don't like the argument that it's too obvious that they're scum for them to be scum.

I noticed that you're an IC. Surely you wouldn't do something as scummy as early in the game as lynch someone early with barely any information or interaction from anyone?

You don't agree with me saying "Madonna seem to be very mindful of game mechanics, I doubt she would make such a mistake if she were to be scum" because you don't like the argument but in post 98 you make the exact same argument for Thor? Wut? Am I failing basic reading comprehension or did you dun goofed?






On the HempHHH situation:

Dude its the first day, how the hell do I know who is Mafia ?

You don't need to have all the answers but if you contribute your opinion, you should be able to explain it (see: post 65, post 105). Otherwise, it looks like you're just grasping for straws. Either you're stating something that you haven't thought through or you're stating things while withholding your reasonings. Both are bad for town, which makes you look scummy.

[Thor665]

What are you saying here? Could you rephrase?

I am saying two things;

1. That I already provided the evidence you wanted - and if you wish I can quote it, but want you to answer my question first.

2. That I find you wanting to debate the difference between "changed mind" and "reconsidered" to be pretty silly. They are practically synonyms, and it's not a valid reason to duck answering my question to debate with me.

Hm. Please explain to me why it was a good idea to lynch him then.

I haven't said it would be. Why do you think I have?

The way you phrased this confuses me. Are you saying that it's a good idea to give reads lists when you're scum?

I didn't say that, but, yes, I would say it's probably a good idea to do anything that looks pro-town when you're scum.
What I did say was - when you play scum, do you need other people to give reads lists in order to help you figure out who looks really town?

You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding me. I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm not sure where the hangup is. Is English your first language?

Thor, what do you think of Hemp right now?

I have no particularly strong opinion on him. I find the case weak but quite acceptable for this stage of the game.

[1]It's bad for town because 2 weeks worth of discussion can go down the pan, that could be a lot of potential information that isn't only useful for D1 but can also be used later in the game. To an IC, I thought this would have been fairly obvious. If someone had come in, and not paid attention to what was going on so far, and voted for NM, we would have lost a lot of information.

[2]I don't really have much experience of L-1 wagons. However, trying to make somebody claim this early seems really bad, and only good for scum. If NM had to claim a power role to save his life, he could lie of course but let's just assume he doesn't, town are at a huge disadvantage with a power role exposed. Again, I'm not sure why I have to explain this to an IC. L-1 wagons are good for applying pressure and increasing activity for sure, but that was really early and I'm sure it was warranted.

[3]I had a problem with your vote because a) you're an IC who looked super happy to lynch straight away and b) you voted for him in your very first post knowing he already had 3 votes and there was a chance somebody could lynch him by mistake.

1. Is that obvious? I've been in exactly one Newbie game that had an early speed lynch - Town won that game. What is your evidence supporting that speed lynches tend to lead to town losses? I mean, if it's silly that I, as an IC, wouldn't agree with that - clearly it's a well known fact with supporting evidence...right?

2. I do not understand how you think a claim is bad. A claim is good. If people don't want a claim early then they shouldn't vote people. Claims, and L-1 wagons with hammer intent create trackable evidence of who people are willing to lynch and also provide information. If you agree that after two weeks a claim is "good" then I don't see the issue with having a claim at one week, or two days, or one day. If it happening is good (and I presume you're not arguing that there shouldn't be a claim) then the time it happens is merely one of preference, not an absolute.

3a. I was looking super happy to lynch right away. Is that scummy? Why?

3b. Yes, I did vote him...so did a number of other people. Why am I the only one who would be guilty if he was lynched? I'm pretty sure I can't lynch people on my own.

This places you at L-2.

Like take this - here you are pushing for a lynch. You're making an aggressive and early move...something you seem to find questionable when others do it. But...I guess since you're not L-1 and not an IC it isn't scummy when you do it? Is that right?

Unvote: Not_Mafia
Vote: BlueBloodedToffee

Serious vote.

*takes notes*

Are you actually taking notes? Or is this to make it appear like you're working on stuff? Or is it a mild intimidation attempt?

I'm also pretty sure Madonna and tynn are town.

[Zaicon]

Vote Count 1.2

HempHHH (3):

Not_Mafia, Tr1ckster, BlueBloodedToffee

Tr1ckster (2):

tynn, HempHHH

Aquanim (1):

Madonna

BlueBloodedToffee (1):

Thor665

No Vote (2):

Aquanim, JasonWazza

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline is Thursday, May 1, at 9:00 AM CDT, which is in (expired on 2014-05-01 09:00:00).

[Tr1ckster]

You don't agree with me saying "Madonna seem to be very mindful of game mechanics, I doubt she would make such a mistake if she were to be scum" because you don't like the argument but in post 98 you make the exact same argument for Thor? Wut? Am I failing basic reading comprehension or did you dun goofed?

Half dun goofed, half reaction testing. 'cuz de scumz I played with tend to react badly to crappy arguments.

What are you saying here? Could you rephrase?

I am saying two things;

1. That I already provided the evidence you wanted - and if you wish I can quote it, but want you to answer my question first.

2. That I find you wanting to debate the difference between "changed mind" and "reconsidered" to be pretty silly. They are practically synonyms, and it's not a valid reason to duck answering my question to debate with me.

Oh oops. >.< Yeah.. I think that was a misunderstanding.. I don't think that's what I thought I was debating.. XD

Lemme go back and try and find your question.

I haven't said it would be. Why do you think I have?

You said it was likely he would be lynched.. and that you were setting him up for a lynch.. and that you were ready for his lynch. I guess I was assuming this meant you thought his lynch was a good thing?

I didn't say that, but, yes, I would say it's probably a good idea to do anything that looks pro-town when you're scum.
What I did say was - when you play scum, do you need other people to give reads lists in order to help you figure out who looks really town?

Hm. True enough. I guess I don't see how it makes anyone look townier, though.. unless you weren't saying that at all and I'm just misinterpreting?

You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding me. I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm not sure where the hangup is. Is English your first language?

Err ... Yes.. But I'm still not very good at it. I've always had A's in pretty much everything but English. I suck at communication and always misinterpret what everyone's saying.. so sometimes I wonder if it really is my first language. XD

I have no particularly strong opinion on him. I find the case weak but quite acceptable for this stage of the game.

Interesting.

This places you at L-2.

Like take this - here you are pushing for a lynch. You're making an aggressive and early move...something you seem to find questionable when others do it. But...I guess since you're not L-1 and not an IC it isn't scummy when you do it? Is that right?

Unvote: Not_Mafia
Vote: BlueBloodedToffee

Serious vote.

Err. I saw this as an intimidation attempt to get somebody talking who wasn't talking. Is it just me or is this OMGUS?

*takes notes*

Are you actually taking notes? Or is this to make it appear like you're working on stuff? Or is it a mild intimidation attempt?

Mild intimidation. I like intimidation. Makes me happy. And it's something I'm relatively good at. (IMHO)

I'm also pretty sure Madonna and tynn are town.

I would agree with you there. The people I'm questioning right now are you, Hemp, and maybe NM and BBT.

[Tr1ckster]

I do take notes sometimes, though

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1. Is that obvious? I've been in exactly one Newbie game that had an early speed lynch - Town won that game. What is your evidence supporting that speed lynches tend to lead to town losses? I mean, if it's silly that I, as an IC, wouldn't agree with that - clearly it's a well known fact with supporting evidence...right?

2. I do not understand how you think a claim is bad. A claim is good. If people don't want a claim early then they shouldn't vote people. Claims, and L-1 wagons with hammer intent create trackable evidence of who people are willing to lynch and also provide information. If you agree that after two weeks a claim is "good" then I don't see the issue with having a claim at one week, or two days, or one day. If it happening is good (and I presume you're not arguing that there shouldn't be a claim) then the time it happens is merely one of preference, not an absolute.

3a. I was looking super happy to lynch right away. Is that scummy? Why?

3b. Yes, I did vote him...so did a number of other people. Why am I the only one who would be guilty if he was lynched? I'm pretty sure I can't lynch people on my own.

This places you at L-2.

Like take this - here you are pushing for a lynch. You're making an aggressive and early move...something you seem to find questionable when others do it. But...I guess since you're not L-1 and not an IC it isn't scummy when you do it? Is that right?

I don't believe I have stated that early lynches lead to town losses - if I have, please provide evidence to correct me. Do you disagree that losing 2 weeks/1 week/5 days worth more discussion is a bad thing?

I'm arguing about the timing of the claim. You were looking for a claim when we hadn't even had everyone post in the thread at that point and the game had barely started.

I thought I explained why it looks scummy to want a lynch straight away. I'm pretty sure I did. You're repeating your questions for some reason.

I'm applying pressure for information, I'm not looking for an instant lynch. I also got a quick reaction from Hemp, which is exactly what I was looking for. There are also more reasons to start applying pressure to Hemp, as opposed to your rant on NM's self-vote and proceeding vote to L-1. I hope you can see the difference between the two.

[Thor665]

I don't believe I have stated that early lynches lead to town losses - if I have, please provide evidence to correct me. Do you disagree that losing 2 weeks/1 week/5 days worth more discussion is a bad thing?

I do disagree that loss of time is a bad thing. It is not. Is that the full extent of your reasoning that an early lynch is bad for town?

I'm arguing about the timing of the claim. You were looking for a claim when we hadn't even had everyone post in the thread at that point and the game had barely started.

So when am I allowed to want a claim? Only after everyone has posted at least once? What difference would that make?

I thought I explained why it looks scummy to want a lynch straight away. I'm pretty sure I did. You're repeating your questions for some reason.

I'm repeating it because the answers you've provided don't actually show scum intent. At most they show 'a playstyle you disagree with'.
I can explain the difference if needed, but I'm curious why you think it's a scum plan.

I'm applying pressure for information, I'm not looking for an instant lynch. I also got a quick reaction from Hemp, which is exactly what I was looking for. There are also more reasons to start applying pressure to Hemp, as opposed to your rant on NM's self-vote and proceeding vote to L-1. I hope you can see the difference between the two.

Oh, so when you do it it's "pressure for info"
But when I do it it's "rushing and forcing a claim"

Yes, I need you to explain the difference between the two - they appear identical.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't believe I have stated that early lynches lead to town losses - if I have, please provide evidence to correct me. Do you disagree that losing 2 weeks/1 week/5 days worth more discussion is a bad thing?

I do disagree that loss of time is a bad thing. It is not. Is that the full extent of your reasoning that an early lynch is bad for town?

I'm arguing about the timing of the claim. You were looking for a claim when we hadn't even had everyone post in the thread at that point and the game had barely started.

So when am I allowed to want a claim? Only after everyone has posted at least once? What difference would that make?

I thought I explained why it looks scummy to want a lynch straight away. I'm pretty sure I did. You're repeating your questions for some reason.

I'm repeating it because the answers you've provided don't actually show scum intent. At most they show 'a playstyle you disagree with'.
I can explain the difference if needed, but I'm curious why you think it's a scum plan.

I'm applying pressure for information, I'm not looking for an instant lynch. I also got a quick reaction from Hemp, which is exactly what I was looking for. There are also more reasons to start applying pressure to Hemp, as opposed to your rant on NM's self-vote and proceeding vote to L-1. I hope you can see the difference between the two.

Oh, so when you do it it's "pressure for info"
But when I do it it's "rushing and forcing a claim"

Yes, I need you to explain the difference between the two - they appear identical.

That was pretty much it yeah. A couple of days worth of discussion does not help town later in the game. The more posts/information you have, the better chance you have of making informed decisions further down the line. There is also a chance for people to make mistakes as the day goes on. Do you disagree with this?

You're being facetious. You can want a claim whenever you like, it makes more sense however to wait until you can give some valid reasons for why you want a claim from a specific player, not just OMG he self-voted. Claim now.

OK, I'm gonna try again. The less information there is in the thread, the better that is for scum. The less information there is in a thread, the harder it is to make reads on people. The less information there is in a thread, the better the scum have of surviving an extra day without getting lynched.

OK, at the time of your vote to push NM to L-1, he hadn't actually done anything worthy of all his votes, and one of them was a RVS vote. I agree he was being difficult, with his short, pointless posts, but worthy of a claim/accidental lynch, I don't think so.

When I voted for Hemp, he was posting the same thing over and over. He was not contributing, he hadn't joined in any of the discussions, he wouldn't answer questions, he wouldn't elaborate on his posts. These are reasons more worthy of trying to apply pressure to someone, not just a self-vote.

I can't be any more clear than that.

[Thor665]

That was pretty much it yeah. A couple of days worth of discussion does not help town later in the game. The more posts/information you have, the better chance you have of making informed decisions further down the line. There is also a chance for people to make mistakes as the day goes on. Do you disagree with this?

I do on the first, and the second doesn't matter. No, more posts does not = more info. Posts can be empty and meaningless or, worse, will grind down town, in many games, as scum, I intentionally try to keep days going in order to create this exact situation. Second, a slip is useful, but there's no reason to believe a slip will or will not happen due to any amount of time. It is situations that tend to create them in my experience, not time. Now, maybe time will create more situations...but, meh, a situation of lessening time might do just as well.

You're being facetious. You can want a claim whenever you like, it makes more sense however to wait until you can give some valid reasons for why you want a claim from a specific player, not just OMG he self-voted. Claim now.

I find self voting to be scummy - apparently so do other people. if enough people suspect a player to put him at L-1 why *shouldn't* we then discuss if he needs to claim?
Maybe I am being facetious.
You are certainly being pedantic.

The less information there is in the thread, the better that is for scum. The less information there is in a thread, the harder it is to make reads on people. The less information there is in a thread, the better the scum have of surviving an extra day without getting lynched.

I agree. But, again, I don't agree that time=posts=info. Entire games of Mafia have been played in less time than this game has been open - town has won those games and had good info to do so.

OK, at the time of your vote to push NM to L-1, he hadn't actually done anything worthy of all his votes, and one of them was a RVS vote. I agree he was being difficult, with his short, pointless posts, but worthy of a claim/accidental lynch, I don't think so.

So we disagree - that doesn't prove my stance to be wrong, and certainly doesn't prove it to be scummy.

When I voted for Hemp, he was posting the same thing over and over. He was not contributing, he hadn't joined in any of the discussions, he wouldn't answer questions, he wouldn't elaborate on his posts. These are reasons more worthy of trying to apply pressure to someone, not just a self-vote.

Ah, so...when Not_Mafia had self-voted, and been asked for reads and refused to give them, and had been asked by people why he had self voted and said "but the RNG" all of that was being totally helpful and not at all like what Hemp is doing...right?

I feel like that's *exactly* what Not_Mafia was doing. How am I wrong here?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, I feel like we're about to start going round in circles. Until next time.

[Not_Mafia]

Comparing your vote on me to BBT's on Hemp is just a false equivalency amongst other strawmanning in your posts and I have gone on to explain my behaviour where Hemp has not, so not the same.

Are you chainsawing for Hemp?

[HempHHH]

Just a gut feeling, I mean your yelling at NM and your trying to put suspicion on me, so for now I am keeping my vote on you

You said you thought I was mafia before this stuff happened.

Dude its the first day, how the hell do I know who is Mafia ?

Well, you've got your vote on me and you're saying you think I'm mafia.

_______

@Hemp.

I'm not trying to put suspicion on you. I don't have to try at all.

It took two votes on you to get you to answer ANY questions, and you still use "I think an SE is mafia" as an excuse for your vote. You haven't explained WHY you think an SE is mafia, you refuse to explain just about anything. You backtrack as soon as a third vote is put on you by claiming not to know who's mafia. You haven't really responded to a single question, all we've gotten are a whole bunch of baseless claims from you.

You're making yourself suspicious without any of my help.

UNVOTE: Tr1ckster

VOTE: Not-Mafia

you have valid point, NM is acting more like scum I guess...