Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Moonlight]

EBWOP: Mewbie 1477

[4 Heads of Insanity]

Town-read on Tr1ckster.

Hello there, Pasche.

;3

Figure I should introduce myself. I am

Chrimi

and

Viomi

.

The two of us make up half of this four-headed hydra. Pleased to meet you, if we haven't already. My other two quarters should be joining us shortly, if they haven't already.

Good luck.

Have fun.

VOTE: Baezu

[Randomnamechange]

vote 4 heads

If they had been reading through the thread, they would know that we were out of RVS. Mafia lazy? Also, not really sure how I am buddying.

[4 Heads of Insanity]

Hello everyone,

I am No one.

Also Who.

I disagree with my other heads, scumread on Tr1ckster.

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

[4 Heads of Insanity]

vote 4 heads

If they had been reading through the thread, they would know that we were out of RVS. Mafia lazy? Also, not really sure how I am buddying.

Firstly, I am not lazy as Mafia. Mafia is the only role where I would have read thoroughly.

Secondly, what made you think that was RVS?

Also, apologies to my other heads for not discussing things first.

Scum is on Tr1ckster wagon.

Scum is definitely not on Tr1ckster wagon, no scum is stupid enough to be on D1 wagon.

I've seen some stupid people.

True.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

[Moonlight]

At least I appreciate that the heads are making it easy to tell who is thinking what, thank you. =)

[Tr1ckster]

@Boro

Read my first town game with Moonlight. I buddied hard.

Also...
Why did your reason for voting for me change between your two posts? I don't like that.

[Tr1ckster]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I'd agree with most of this.

I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.

However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.

I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.

4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.

[Tr1ckster]

I have to say...

I feel like Baezu isn't thinking for herself.. she's relying too much on past play. I don't like it.

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

[The_Ascended]

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

I think it's worked pretty well so far. There's been plenty of discussion, and I think Moon and Trickster are looking pretty town. If you think we should be discussing something else, please provide a topic.

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

Active town players tend to agree with each other. Until day 3 or so when they start ripping each other's heads off.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Please justify this assertion.

Hello there, Pasche.

;3

Oh this'll be fun. ^_^ Also, my first hydra!

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

Agreed on both counts.

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

I really don't like over-reliance on meta. It assumes that people have far more concrete tells than they really do. Plus it's difficult to check, and leads to "trust me" moments. I do not trust so easily.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

There are two votes on Trickster and they're both pretty dumb. Why is Baezu a better vote than Boro?

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

QFT

I'll discuss signatures for our posts when Mastin gets back. Until Monday, all posts are by Pasch.

[Tr1ckster]

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Actually, that's not what he was trying to do:

It was an innocuous RVS joke post,

I think it's pretty interesting, actually, how he's developed a tunnel of me...

Because while his first vote was for mastin and then he moved it to Moonlight, the player he's been mainly addressing and the player he made joke posts about being scum (here,here, and here) are all about me. Why hasn't he voted for me yet?

[Moonlight]

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Same thing I did the first time I played with him; I want to townread him, and at the same time I'm a bit cautious because it's strange to develop a proper read that early on someone.

I spent that first game in a cycle of "Tricks can't be scum" and "Wait, this is so unlike him, something's up". I trusted him enough to work with him, but not enough to ever stop re-examining my read (which always ended with me finding many more things I liked than things I disliked).

And from his posts it seems the feeling is mutual.

I agree with his opinion on every game being different and his question for NM.

[tman2nd]

I can definitely see why people don't like my post. I wasn't being apathetic though. I was viewing the wagon as RVS and that's what the "whatever" came.

Oh, I didn't realize a wagon would appear on my RVS vote. Not to sure about the logic for it, but it's an RVS wagon, so whatever.

Why would you discount it like that?

Why would you keep your vote on a wagon you don't agree with?

I do not see Not_Mafia's quote as being a scumtell at all, and I saw that wagon as still being very RVS. I didn't think it was very serious. I kept my vote because I saw no better place to put it at the moment, but now I think there are better places.

UNVOTE:

Interesting posts by Pasch and Baezu. I agree with the former on everything except for barking up the wrong tree; that's not how I see it. I agree that it's a reachy case, I just don't see that as something that can't be used. I approve of the tman vote though.

As for Baezu, I think Tricks gets a bit more confident when he believes I'm Town. We've noticed we work off each other pretty well.

PEdit: Darn, there's something new every time I click submit. I guess I'll just post and be done with it. xD

This post gives me a town vibe.

vote 4 heads

If they had been reading through the thread, they would know that we were out of RVS. Mafia lazy? Also, not really sure how I am buddying.

Firstly, I am not lazy as Mafia. Mafia is the only role where I would have read thoroughly.

Secondly, what made you think that was RVS?

Also, apologies to my other heads for not discussing things first.

Scum is on Tr1ckster wagon.

Scum is definitely not on Tr1ckster wagon, no scum is stupid enough to be on D1 wagon.

I've seen some stupid people.

True.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

I don't really like the logic in this post. I don't see why a smart scum wouldn't want to be on that wagon. That seems rather contrived. I especially don't like the wifom element in here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moonlight seems town to me. So, does Trick even though I get a weird feeling from some of his posts. I got the same feeling from him when reading that game that so many of you recently played, so I still townread him for now.

The_Ascended has been contributing well to town, so I townread him.

random seems to be focusing rather narrowly and hasn't commented on most of what's going on.

For now I would like Finglove to speak up about their vote.

VOTE: Finglove

Pedit:

It was an innocuous RVS joke post,

I think it's pretty interesting, actually, how he's developed a tunnel of me...

Because while his first vote was for mastin and then he moved it to Moonlight, the player he's been mainly addressing and the player he made joke posts about being scum (here,here, and here) are all about me. Why hasn't he voted for me yet?

I think he's addressed you the most because you've been addressing him more than Moonlight has. Also, those joke votes where in RVS.

[Tr1ckster]

I think he's addressed you the most because you've been addressing him more than Moonlight has. Also, those joke votes where in RVS.

Two things:

Please don't answer for someone I question (but feel free to say you agree with the question being asked) because it offers the person I'm asking the question to an easy way out. Among other things.

The other thing is that he never actually voted for me. Three times he set me up for a joke vote or an RVS vote... but he never actually voted for me. He got to the point of calling me scum at one point and still didn't vote for me.

[idk]

Phone-posting atm, should be able to make a better post tomorrow evening.

Anyway, initial thoughts:
-Not_Mafia seems pretty town. Their first post about the "Are you Fire or Ice?" just seems like some RVS fun, nothing scum-motivated.

-Tr1ckster and Moonlight really seemed to jump on that RVS "reasoning" as a scumtell, and that seems pretty (the word is escaping my mind atm so I'll just say: ) suspicious, but I agree with Ascended: their other posts seem pretty town, they're just barking up the wrong tree

-Finglove obviously is suspect for just dropping in with a bandwagon vote and no other comment

-Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.

So with that, I'll

VOTE: Tman2nd

[Finglove]

V/la until Monday/Tuesday (it's a bank holiday weekend over here).

I didn't like NMs pregame chat and it seemed as good a place for a first vote as any. When I'm at a computer I'll do a solid read-through and work out if that's still the best place for my vote to be.

[YurikoJasmine]

I'm a bit lost in the fast pace. Will catch up soon.

[BoroPhil]

@Boro

Read my first town game with Moonlight. I buddied hard.

Also...
Why did your reason for voting for me change between your two posts? I don't like that.

it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.

[BoroPhil]

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

I think it's worked pretty well so far. There's been plenty of discussion, and I think Moon and Trickster are looking pretty town. If you think we should be discussing something else, please provide a topic.

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

Active town players tend to agree with each other. Until day 3 or so when they start ripping each other's heads off.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Please justify this assertion.

Hello there, Pasche.

;3

Oh this'll be fun. ^_^ Also, my first hydra!

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

Agreed on both counts.

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

I really don't like over-reliance on meta. It assumes that people have far more concrete tells than they really do. Plus it's difficult to check, and leads to "trust me" moments. I do not trust so easily.

Scum is either dumb and on Tr1ckster wagon or smart and off of it. All smart players on Tr1ckster wagon we consider town for the moment, all dumb players on Tr1ckster wagon give us a scumread.

There are two votes on Trickster and they're both pretty dumb. Why is Baezu a better vote than Boro?

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

QFT

I'll discuss signatures for our posts when Mastin gets back. Until Monday, all posts are by Pasch.

I think we should be discussing "Is Tricky scum"

[Randomnamechange]

@4 heads The fact that you gave no reasoning for your vote.
@Moonlight I have become more confident at mafia.
I think Finglove had a decent explanation for his odd voting.
Boro is tunnelling, but I don't really have that as a tell, as in Mewbie 1447 (link at top of page) I saw Hanzo (scum) tunnelling against Tricks (town), Tricks tunnelling against Hanzo, and Tricks tunnelling against TwilightCalls (town). So this is more of a comment really.
I think people are getting a bit hung up on the not_mafia RVS comment.
I definitely see where people are coming from on the tman RVS vote.
The_Ascended makes a good post, but I can see this post coming from scum.
Not got much on the other players really.

[Tr1ckster]

it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.

I'm not misrepping at all.

Spoiler:

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

VOTE: Trick

Wait, why does this apply to Tricks and not me? I'm the one who pointed out first, so I don't understand why you're not after me if you think it's scummy. o_O

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Your reason changed. You should have simply restated your reasons for it in the first place.

Either way, your reasoning is... well... not.

I guess I can say this now because the pressure wagon on NM diminished...

It was RVS. A lot of the drill on NM was purposeful in order to get discussion going. Of course we weren't ready for an NM lynch, but by tunneling him we got a lot of discussion moving and so on and so forth.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that at this point in D1, stretch arguments and pressure wagons are actually

good

for town, because they result in discussion over people's alignment and debates that significance of certain actions that helps town get on the same page. I think too many people take Mafia as a straight-forward game - it's not. There is a lot of room for lying in mafia as town, especially on D1. For the same reason people said NM's scummy question might have been town-motivated (it wasn't, he said so himself) what I and Moonlight did was town-motivated.

Something I think people need to take a better look at - is what is happening right now going to help town in the long run? Also stop depending so strongly on common tells. Not every townie is going to play the same game and not every goon is going to play the same game. One of the things about mafia is that there is no "correct" way to play mafia- there are dozens of different styles and techniques and so on and so forth. Too many people are using general tells across the board - what people need to learn why the current tells are tells. Why? And then apply that "why" to the person they're trying to read. Does the reasoning match up? Or is the person doing something for different reasons than those that would make the scum tell a scum tell.

Anyways.. sorry about that.

TL; DR

Mafia is not a straightforward game, stop applying tells to everyone and figure out the reasoning behind the tells and see if it lines up with the reasons that the player you're trying to read is committing the tell.

/end rant

[Moonlight]

Anyone that is scumreading Tricks at this point is either confusing "wanting a wagon on someone" with "wanting someone lynched", or they see something I don't. =/

I'd also like to add that general tells in this setup are particularly dangerous. For example, scumhunting is generally considered a pro-Town move, but in

this

setup the scum also need to scumhunt on the side. Possibly not from the get-go, but eventually.

[Moonlight]

Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.

I'll play devil's advocate.

Not using one's vote is bad from my point of view. When I unvote, it's very temporary, I always want to be voting for someone because it's the one thing I cannot be lying about.[/quote]

The_Ascended makes a good post, but I can see this post coming from scum.

Can you expand on that thought? I have them as a townread at the moment, show me where you see possible scum motivation.

[Moonlight]

@Tricks:

5) No quoting any private communication or PMs, including your role PM. No using invisible text,

spoiler tags

, or encryption codes. Violation of this rule will result in a modkill.

Bolded the important part.