Verbally abusing your fellow mafia player is not okay

[Vi]

What a sad reflection on the current meta that a player who joined four months ago thinks being an asshole is an equivalent strategy to the use of reasoned explanations, simple logic, and brevity.

Yes, but is it true?

Serious question. There is very little point in winning arguments in Mafia, so much as convincing other people to join you on your wagon. Do personal attacks make it more likely for people to do so? If not, you'd think that (barring moments of outright frustration) this behavior would self-select.

My own experience is that neither reason nor rage actually work to this effect because people are overly convinced by themselves and aren't listening to you but RAGE fails for two reasons--
1) It generally doesn't get people to stop voting for you.
2) It makes it very easy for others, scum and Town alike, to assume that it's a personality-based conflict and that there's probably nothing of substance going on and let's just not read any of that.

Yes, instead they say "You do not have the good judgment to make sound plays in this game please sit down and sheep me". Vast improvement.

I think this is more insulting than "you're a dumb fucktard who needs to learn how to play".

Just my personal opinion.

said the "sheep Majiffy or Thor" flowcharter

[Burning_Earth]

Yeah idk.

If you do it the right way, rage works.

I've just played in an incredibly unpleasant off-site game in which two people took it WAY too far, and like 20 pages were insults and bickering.

And then town self-hammered

The rest of the game was pretty awesome though

[LlamaFluff]

Seriously, no one reads cases.

People listen to tone though.

Again. No.

People who shouldn't be playing the game maybe don't bother to read cases, which have their own tone. If you aren't going to pay attention to any cases why are you even playing the game? Seriously why even play?

I would probably policy lynch anyone who is not reading cases because they are at best just going to be a liability to town.

[Vi]

Seriously, no one reads cases.

People listen to tone though.

Again. No.

People who shouldn't be playing the game maybe don't bother to read cases, which have their own tone. If you aren't going to pay attention to any cases why are you even playing the game? Seriously why even play?

I would probably policy lynch anyone who is not reading cases because they are at best just going to be a liability to town.

fluffy

look

you can't policy lynch entire player lists

believe me, i've wanted to

[Burning_Earth]

Seriously, no one reads cases.

People listen to tone though.

Again. No.

People who shouldn't be playing the game maybe don't bother to read cases, which have their own tone. If you aren't going to pay attention to any cases why are you even playing the game? Seriously why even play?

I would probably policy lynch anyone who is not reading cases because they are at best just going to be a liability to town.

fluffy

look

you can't policy lynch entire player lists

believe me, i've wanted to

I agree with this.

Like I'm not saying a few people don't read them.

3/4 of people don't read them.

[Burning_Earth]

Basically, people have been moaning about "these newfangled (Insert word here)" for thousands of years

[LlamaFluff]

Like I'm not saying a few people don't read them.

3/4 of people don't read them.

So the system is broken and we shouldn't try to fix it?

There are ways to make player pay attention to cases. Sometimes it takes some direct engagement and other tricks, but there are ways to actually make players pay attention to cases. Saying "lets stop making cases and see who can swear the most creatively" just is wrong.

Basically, people have been moaning about "these newfangled (Insert word here)" for thousands of years

These newfangled assholes?

Nah. Im not about to just say "oh well" about basic decency and respect going out the window. There is a distinct difference between a meta shift that makes the game more difficult to play for certain players and a meta shift that makes the game flat out unenjoyable for players. A basic level of mutual respect needs to exist. While you may have no problem with your friend calling you a retarded fuckwad, most people do not want to be talked to that way.

The problem with being an asshole is that everyone has a different definition of what it is. What one person thinks is just fine and has no issues with being said others may find offensive. While there is such a thing as being too sensitive, there is also such a thing as being over the line. That is what I want to try and shut down, as does most of the site.

[Burning_Earth]

"Saying "lets stop making cases and see who can swear the most creatively" just is wrong"

Uh, yeah I agree with this statement. So does everybody.

"I'm not going to just say "oh well" about basic decency and respect going out the window"
=
"these disrespectful children. We brought them up better in the olden days"

[Burning_Earth]

And yes there is such a thing as going over the line.

[Quilford]

B_E, please drop the stupid 'lol anyone who complains about standards dropping is an old fogie' stuff thanks. That's no way to go about having this discussion.

[chamber]

Heres the thing mate, no one is saying being an ass can't be situationally effective. I think people have admitted the opposite. What is being said is that this is a game people play to have fun. They don't play it to be shat on by you. They don't play it to be emotionally riled by you because you think it helps you win more. Stop being a dick.

[Burning_Earth]

B_E, please drop the stupid 'lol anyone who complains about standards dropping is an old fogie' stuff thanks. That's no way to go about having this discussion.

Maybe it's a little bit more than that, but honestly, people still play mafia, they still have fun, and winrates are fine.

The site isn't turning to shit

@chamber: I'm not saying you should be an utter dick all the time. Just, sometimes being a little aggressive works, and don't do it if it genuinely offends anyone.

Anyway, I'm leaving this thread.

[Faraday]

AGRESSION can be useful.

I am nice sometimes and then sometimes I'm not! I shall try my best to be nicer in future games

[Untrod Tripod]

[LlamaFluff]

@chamber: I'm not saying you should be an utter dick all the time. Just, sometimes being a little aggressive works, and don't do it if it genuinely offends anyone.

That's the issue though. Quite a few do it even though it genuinely is offending others either due to ignorance of what they are doing or that they don't care about others enjoyment of the game.

[Burning_Earth]

@chamber: I'm not saying you should be an utter dick all the time. Just, sometimes being a little aggressive works, and don't do it if it genuinely offends anyone.

That's the issue though. Quite a few do it even though it genuinely is offending others either due to ignorance of what they are doing or that they don't care about others enjoyment of the game.

Well those people have no social skills

[Quilford]

What a sad reflection on the current meta that a player who joined four months ago thinks being an asshole is an equivalent strategy to the use of reasoned explanations, simple logic, and brevity.

Yes, but is it true?

Serious question. There is very little point in winning arguments in Mafia, so much as convincing other people to join you on your wagon. Do personal attacks make it more likely for people to do so? If not, you'd think that (barring moments of outright frustration) this behavior would self-select.

I think convincing other people to join you on your wagon, which involves winning 'the argument' over X being scum and winning 'the argument' over lynching X today, can be very easily done if you set out a few elegant, convincing points and back them up by calmly and firmly promoting your cause. It can also be done with much less brainpower if you scream at people, but that doesn't make screaming at people okay.

[Oversoul]

I agree with Quilford. Elegant articulation goes a long way.

[zMuffinMan]

snip

I think you should learn to deal with it.

Really.

What is or isn't "offensive" is entirely subjective.

I don't get offended when someone swears at me. Or calls me names. Or insults some aspect of my play.

I honestly find it more offensive when someone tries to force their values on me (like when someone tells me it's not OK to do something!) or when someone acts like their shit doesn't stink (I honestly think "sheep me" is more offensive than "fuck you". At least with "fuck you" I know the person is just expressing anger at me in the most blatant of ways, but when someone says "sheep me" it's basically an extremely condescending way of saying, "you have no idea what you're doing and my reads are better than yours, so if you have any sense you'll stop thinking you are right and listen to me instead" but in a oh-i'm-not-being-offensive-here!! cheeky way - it's like people who uses asterisks or "the f word" instead of just saying "fuck" - we all know what you're really saying, nobody is less offended by it because you weren't being explicit).

Look. You have your own set of values, and they're different from mine, and whatever, that's cool for you. But really, I don't give a shit about them, so if there are specific rules preventing it or I'm asked by a mod to stop doing what I'm doing, I will, but I'm not going to take your ideas seriously. Why are your values better than mine? Why should I care what someone else finds offensive if they don't care about what I think is more offensive?

I dare you to find an objective way to draw the line at what is or isn't OK in a game without using your personal values. Or just learn to deal with it if a mod doesn't intervene.

[zMuffinMan]

If what you are doing is making quite a few players not enjoy the game, you are screwing up

This line of reasoning could be applied to so many things in a mafia game

There is very little point in winning arguments in Mafia, so much as convincing other people to join you on your wagon. Do personal attacks make it more likely for people to do so? If not, you'd think that (barring moments of outright frustration) this behavior would self-select

This line of reasoning could be applied to so many things in a mafia game

[Quilford]

We're talking about 'verbal abuse'; the OP provides a good rule of thumb which is 'if you wouldn't say it to a stranger's face, don't say it to someone in a mafia game'. Ultimately we can't make anyone stop verbally abusing others, but we can take their platforms away (by, as mods, replacing them out) and by creating an environment that is anti-abuse (by, as players, voluntarily cutting out verbal abuse ourselves).

If you think 'sheep me' is more offensive than 'fuck you', then by all means cut it out of your Mafia-playing vocabulary and as a mod encourage low tolerance for condescension.

[zMuffinMan]

The OP's rule of thumb fails on multiple levels (First, where the fuck do you live that verbally abusing strangers never happens? Have you never seen road rage? Or spats between, say, an employee and a customer? Or just random strangers angry about some lack of respect shown in some way? And second, the OP's rule of thumb was quite literally shattered when someone pointed out their personal experience with face-to-face mafia) but even ignoring that, you're still not answering why I should care about

YOUR

values when they are different to mine.

If you think 'sheep me' is more offensive than 'fuck you', then by all means cut it out of your Mafia-playing vocabulary and as a mod encourage low tolerance for condescension.

If that is your solution, then stop complaining about how a different mod handles cases of "verbal abuse"

[Quilford]

I have literally no idea what you're talking about.

'First, where the fuck do you live that verbally abusing strangers never happens?' when did i ever say or imply anything like this
'the OP's rule of thumb was quite literally shattered when someone pointed out their personal experience with face-to-face mafia' this isn't face to face mafia, we're not all friends who we feel comfortable using that kind of language around
'you're still not answering why I should care about YOUR values when they are different to mine' the only value i'm discussing here is that i value civility. do you not value civility?
'If that is your solution, then stop complaining about how a different mod handles cases of "verbal abuse"' when did i ever complain about mods or what what what what what what

[Quilford]

First, where the fuck do you live that verbally abusing strangers never happens? Have you never seen road rage? Or spats between, say, an employee and a customer? Or just random strangers angry about some lack of respect shown in some way?

oic you were addressing this to the OP

still don't think the op said or implied anything like this, but they can answer for themselves

[zMuffinMan]

do you not value civility?

A lack of civility does not affect my enjoyment of a game. Other things do.

You're really just side-stepping the issue here by implying that your values are better than mine if I don't agree with you.

Because you're not really explaining why civility is objectively important. Only that you think it's important. I've already explained why civility means shit all to me when anyone who reads between the lines can see the true intent of a statement. Being civil about it doesn't make it any better. It just means people who are offended by things I am not offended by will be less offended if it's done in a civil way. Wow. Cool. I still don't care.