Verbally abusing your fellow mafia player is not okay

[kuribo]

Mafia is a game of words and personalities

It's no different from people having different preferences in guns when they play CounterStrike

However, If some servers want to ban the AWP and I feel like I can't play without AWPing then I'm free to take my choice of other servers that do allow it


It's a CounterStrike metaphor in which mods are servers

PEdit: making up for the time I saved ignoring mastins wall

[N]

It's my understanding that the word "fuck" is added or inserted into words specifically to offend people and for no other reason (aside from personal amusement or attempting to display familiarity with the person spoken to by showing that you can say offensive things to them but don't reasonably expect them to get upset). Am I wrong?

absofuckinglutely

[Antihero]

Since when is verbal abuse expected to be an integral part of any game?

since there are human beings involved and the nature of the game has to do with questioning their motives and honesty.

[kuribo]

Not to mention, "cursing to be edgy" is disingenuous as fuck anyhow when you consider I recently made an MD thread and video imploring people not to rage. Hell, part of the reason I retired is because I got sick and fucking tired of people calling me scum if I wasn't screaming insults at them. I actually AGREE with CTD to an extent, but the line is at "what constitutes abuse." He doesn't seem to like the word "fuck," I don't like the words "fag" or "cunt" or "retard." (And in fact, other than casually using "bitch" (at guys, I don't use that word toward women) or "fucker" I don't actually do a lot of name-callingin general) It's a matter of taste.

[Majiffy]

except not really

There is a way to express that you think your reads are better than someone else's and you're right and they're wrong without ridiculing them for thinking the way they do. Jesus christ.

And yet you've offered no examples. Jesus christ. How incredible. Wow.

Look ma', no cuss words!

I'm not fine with being a condescending prick. As I've said numerous times, I prefer to assume no attitude of patronising superiority.

Cogdis.

VOTE: Quilford

I chose to say "Are you for real?" instead of "You're a fucking idiot" because the two have completely different meanings

to me. But that's not what you think.

And this is why

your

argument doesn't hold ground.

"We should be civil because people are offended by {insert cussword/rage/whatever}"
The same argument can be made that
"We shouldn't use phrases that can be construed as condescending because some people are offended by it"

It comes down to what the other person interprets your words as. You look like a condescending douchebag asshat to me in this thread despite how much you insist that you're not trying to be one, and you think my gratuitous use of fuckshit tittynipples is offensive because whatever that's how you are.

There is

literally no difference.

I don't go "oh, maybe putting a fuck here will make me seem cool" I say "Jesus fucking Christ, did you eat paint when you were a kid? For fucks sake" because it's what I'm thinking at the time

^ This. ^

[Hoopla]

I don't go "oh, maybe putting a fuck here will make me seem cool" I say "Jesus fucking Christ, did you eat paint when you were a kid? For fucks sake" because it's what I'm thinking at the time

^ This. ^

all of my posts are painstakingly handcrafted.

i didn't know you guys had no filter and just don't think when making posts.

[kuribo]

The biggest problem with "rage" are:

1) it gets easier and easier to do

2) it helps get a read on people exactly once. After the first time, they expect it of you and won't be caught off guard

3) people expect it of you and if you're not in a murderous frenzy every game, people think you're scum

4) it is very emotionally draining, not just on the other players but on yourself. Especially if you come to like them. Like I always say, when I play a game, I don't think of the players as people. I think of them as potential enemies to be shot, manipulated, cornered, etc. not unlike the other players in a game of Quake. Outside the game, sure, y'all can be people. But inside the game I MUST MURDER. The problem is that it gets more difficult to be "mean" in game to people you know and like outside the game. And then they will lynch you for being too calm


So really it doesn't pay to rage

[kuribo]

I don't go "oh, maybe putting a fuck here will make me seem cool" I say "Jesus fucking Christ, did you eat paint when you were a kid? For fucks sake" because it's what I'm thinking at the time

^ This. ^

all of my posts are painstakingly handcrafted.

i didn't know you guys had no filter and just don't think when making posts.

This is why some players have hundreds more posts than others. Swearing isn't the objective, just a side effect from an emotional style. One in which the process goes:

"Hit reply -> type thoughts -> hit send -> read reply -> repeat"

[zMuffinMan]

The more bare your thoughts are, the more genuine they seem. I tend not to review my posts before hitting submit (unless I'm scum, in which case most of my posts are crafted)

If I happen to insult a player, it is because that was my impulsive reaction / thoughts upon reading what they wrote. But I tend not to be abusive to anyone if I don't feel they've done something over-the-top stupid (the examples I gave being scum-reading me for talking like a pirate or scum-reading me for not receiving a fruit vendor message, the latter of which was ridiculously stupid because there is no scum motivation whatsoever to lie about something like that)

[kuribo]

Exactly that. Another example: "you're scum because you're too calm"

Do you not think I know that town me rages? Don't you think that I know it's seen as a scum tell? Why the ever loving fuck would I exhibit behavior knowing that it's a scum tell?! where the hell is the scum motivation in doing something THAT I KNOW WILL BE SEEN AS SCUMMY FOR FUCKS SAKE? MAYBE YOU SHOULD STOP FOR TWO GOD DAMN SECONDS AND USE YOUR EFFING BRAIN BEFORE YOU PISS STUPIDITY ALLOVER THE THREAD FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

[undo]

If one has to insult to be genuine, there might be an issue there.

[Majiffy]

I think you're missing the point.

[T S O]

Of course, it's in the eye of the beholder what does and doesn't constitute verbal abuse.

And that was when the discussion was killed in the womb.

[Kagami]

My 2 cents -

I don't swear myself for various reasons, but I see no reason to be offended by it or any other use of language in this game. If some people choose to post that way, I see no real problem with it, and I agree with those who have said that being offensive without using rage or profanity or capslock or whatever is no different, and arguably more insulting. Part of playing mafia is being somewhat thick-skinned. Even the official glossary includes the term VI, which I consider much more offensive to be called than "fucking idiot."

The internet is not real life. I don't think any of these guys would use the same level of tact in RL conversation, but that doesn't matter. Context counts. We're all used to extra edginess in internet communication, so when they want their point heard, they need to be extra edgy. To some extent, I think my own play suffers for lack of bite, though I don't plan to change that.

It's also not enough to say "you can insult the argument, but not the person." In this game, people know each other from past games, and their opinions of each others' competence do affect their decisions. If I question someone on such a decision, and he says "because he's a VI," should the mod do something about that?

Vig shot decisions are one of the most obvious examples of this, where you often want to choose targets not based on how likely they are to be scum, but rather how much you don't want to see them in lylo. E.g the early vig-related posts in Tales of Vesperia.

[T S O]

How insulting are policy vigs? I would prefer to be called a useless fuck than policy vigged.

[Majiffy]

Totally insulting.

[T S O]

I agree!

[mastin2]

also, everyone should read mastin's walls. there's a lot of good stuff in there.

Happens surprisingly often. I got

very

good at making them good, but alas, reputation of them being useless formed, and most hope was lost.

I've seen people replacing out or threatening to replace out because they feel like they've been crapped on verbally.

Honestly, it's the people threatening to replace out that I am seeing being the ones having done the crapping on. I don't see "you piece of shit" "imma replace out because of that" that much, but I do see, "you piece of shit, you have no clue how close I am to replacing out because of you" all the time.

'You're playing bad' should be OK (when followed by a justification); 'You're an idiot' should not (even if followed by a 'justification').

In spite of them meaning the same thing and delivering the exact same message.

In-games, I've called mollie an idiot a number of times (<3 mollie), but always meant it as "you're playing bad".

not OK: "you're reads suck and you're a shitlord for having them"

In general, I'd agree, but it really depends on the circumstances and how it's used, especially since you yourself pointed out the person saying it probably means the former rather than this. Context behind something is everything. Randomly calling someone 'bitch', probably not okay. Having a unique history between each other and using that word, probably friendly banter that from them will elicit a "<3" response. Same basic things.

I actually AGREE with CTD to an extent, but the line is at "what constitutes abuse." He doesn't seem to like the word "fuck," I don't like the words "fag" or "cunt" or "retard." (And in fact, other than casually using "bitch" (at guys, I don't use that word toward women) or "fucker" I don't actually do a lot of name-callingin general) It's a matter of taste.

I also agree with this, aside from notable exceptions. (Well, fag/cunt/retard shouldn't be used at all, but for others...one example being lighthearted banter that the target is well aware is lighthearted banner, essentially.)

What kind of universe do you live in where politely disagreeing with someone else is unheard of?

A world where politely disagreeing doesn't just drop the issue from conversation and move on.
I.e., the world of our mafia games. If politely disagreeing was just politely disagreeing, you wouldn't get much of an issue.

It never is.

"Politely" disagreeing in a game is disagreeing to make a point of your own...which is still going to be taken badly by the person you're disagreeing with, because to them you're just saying the more vulgar language in less vulgar terms.

Try some variation on "I disagree, and X is why."

Look at this thread having used this approach. It hasn't really worked so far, and this isn't even a mafia game. In a mafia game, it'd be worse.

Jazz it up with some adverbs if you want!

Like, "I fucking disagree"? (Fucking can be used as an adverb. As I said, it's a versatile word.)

It's incredible that for so many of the people posting in this thread, the choice is not between being a jerk or not being a jerk, it's between being an abrasive jerk and a passive-aggressively condescending jerk.

To be fair, I disagree with the notion that players have to be jerks. However, I also disagree with the notion that these things come from jerks. It's as I said: often, the person doing it isn't being a jerk; they're being a human who in some way or another has legitimately been hurt and is now lashing out in defense. Let's face it, mafia's a game of players disagreeing, and then figuring out a way to come to an agreement. EVERYONE in the game is going to be upset when someone disagrees, and thus, everyone is going to react in a manner of a "jerk" to some degree. (Note the quotations.) A fundamental part of the game is fighting. You can call it something more polite, like debating, but that debating is still fighting. (Well, I'd actually advocate the term 'arguing', since fighting is more hostile than what most arguments in games actually are.)

The game could literally not exist without those arguments. And arguments, by their very fundamental nature, involve two players with differing opinions clashing, and those different players will be coming from two different backgrounds. It's why a key piece of the game is simply understanding where the players come from, so that you can figure out what they're actually arguing.

I get the point about being nice and polite. I prefer that environment to CAPS LOCK SHOUTING myself. However, I also recognize that while the ideal state, it is not a realistic state to expect for all (or even the majority) of the game, and that most of the productive posting happens when players are allowed to vent out their natural opinions, which when it comes to the other side, involve their emotions.

I also get the point about seeing the niceness and politeness as being dress-ups to deliver the same underlying hostile message. I happen to not fully agree with that, but I understand it, too. This is the type of person who gets work done by saying what they think and then letting others see it clearly. But the entire game doing this for all (or even the majority) of the game will be incredibly unproductive, just as I personally feel that being nice and polite can only get you so far.

To me, the two balance each other, in a way mirroring human society. Ideally, the nicer world would be best, but realistically, a mixture of the two worlds is what produces the best games. Most productive, most fun, most entertaining, making them neither boring nor absolutely infuriating. If hostility doesn't bleed into another game, I call that a success.

There is a way to express that you think your reads are better than someone else's and you're right and they're wrong without ridiculing them for thinking the way they do.

Yes, I agree with this. I also agree with zMuffinman that your way isn't it.

There is no right way to tell someone they're wrong.

I'd also disagree with this. I'd say it's more accurate to say there's no

universal

way to tell someone. My way of telling someone they're wrong generally involves trying to reverse their thought process, back to where their conclusions diverge from my own, and guide them to my own, using their own mind. This process MASSIVELY differs between, say, you and what I'd try for CrashTextDummie, but the basic process remains essentially the same--generally, I try to make it so that I'm not saying, "You're wrong," so much as I'm saying, "Your idea has merit, but I think you went wrong here in it", and redirect them using that logic.

Mind you, this is typically done most frequently when I'm in a more rational state of mind. If I try it and it fails, then I begin to become a little more unhinged. It's entirely natural, I'd say, because if you're trying something and it's not working, human nature is to build up frustration and anger (and even adrenaline) at it. And because I'm the type not to filter my thoughts much (I don't often post them entirely raw--that's for when I've absolutely lost my shit), this emotion begins to bleed into my posting.

And as a result, because my "reasoning" is failing, my natural instinct as a human is to think it's not a problem on my end, but theirs. And if I feel the problem's not on my end but theirs thanks to that reasoning failing? I say as much. Thus the "insults" begin.

Since when is verbal abuse expected to be an integral part of any game? The fact that it is "a game" should not be an excuse for being rude and lout.

Verbal abuse is not. Humanity clashing with each other is. Humans having deep disagreements with one another is. Humans overcoming those differences, if not in the game then after it, is. I might feel like reaching through the computer monitor and strangling a player on the other side in-game, but post-game we're just two people and I never would. It's a fight. An argument.

Being rude to me is not being vulgar. Being rude is taking the high ground while insisting you haven't.

The biggest problem with "rage" is it gets easier and easier to do and it is very emotionally draining, not just on the other players but on yourself. Especially if you come to like them.

I can vouch for this off of my own posting history. Off of MS.net, you'll never see me use curse words; it's part of my mask as a player, and now you'll see me drop things so damn casually you'd never think that I don't curse because it fits so fluently. And that's because it does--once it was just for emphasis. Now, when it comes to emotionally-charged responses, the words are ingrained in my head and fly out as appropriate. I've tried to cut back on them to get them at least back to where they once were as nothing but emphasis (or jokes), but it's still there all the same because of how ingrained they've become to me as a player. (But not me as a person--again, they don't exist outside MS.net. You see me in real life, the closest I get to a curse word is shouting "D'oh!", because curse words are simply not how I think. Same for other sites. It's just on MS.net.) And, well...it gets tiring. Very, very tiring. There's a reason it was supposed to just be for emphasis. Because that raw ~passion~ they provided was a bit taxing, and now is there consistently. The closer I am to a person, the harsher I feel in a game when things aren't going well with them, and more likely I am to snap out at them. Taxing us both.

This is again one of the main reasons why I agree with the concept of the thread, to cut down on hostility, but disagree quite strongly with the execution, as I feel like it is not targeting the root cause of the problem. (Well, the

absolute

root cause is humanity being humans, which we sadly cannot fix. But as close as we can get to the root problem, anyway.) Which I feel is not in the "verbal abuse", but rather, more in how players don't have that proper understanding of one another, if that makes sense.

[Titus]

My thoughts

I don't take anything personally if it is said in game unless it is deliberate leaking of rl information. Swearing, insulting, and discrediting are part of the game. The trick is to figure out why.

[Svenskt Stål]

Fucking kids.

[undo]

'You're playing bad' should be OK (when followed by a justification); 'You're an idiot' should not (even if followed by a 'justification').

In spite of them meaning the same thing and delivering the exact same message.

No they don't, and you know they don't. 'Idiot' is an insult, and insults are meant to offend.

Since when is verbal abuse expected to be an integral part of any game? The fact that it is "a game" should not be an excuse for being rude and lout.

Verbal abuse is not. Humanity clashing with each other is. Humans having deep disagreements with one another is. Humans overcoming those differences, if not in the game then after it, is. I might feel like reaching through the computer monitor and strangling a player on the other side in-game, but post-game we're just two people and I never would. It's a fight. An argument.

So basically you agree with me. Insulting is not part of the game.

[Vi]

God knows why I'm actually responding to this thread now, but.

@undo: If you are actively hindering my Win Condition (which I believe is our shared Win Condition) via means that defy explanation or have been shown rather convincingly to be strategically unsound, I reserve the right to call it as I see it. I just don't have much interest in maintaining the sensibilities of someone who drew Doctor and, as a matter of personal meta, refused to ever protect anyone while

two Cops

(one of which had an accurate guilty result) claimed and died. And also autohammered anyone who reached L-1.

Quite. There are of course those who hold this as an opinion. It is not the norm. It is DEFINITELY not the norm. Not in any place I've been in. It's not considered "polite", of course, in that you're not going to drop f-bombs in a public gathering. You might whisper one into someone's ears ('fucking awesome' being a common example of this), you might drop it a lot with a group of friends walking down the street or something like that, you probably drop it at home all the time especially when things aren't going well, but there's nothing offensive about it. A lack of politeness is a bit rude, not offensive. (Again, of course there's going to be overlap.) 'Fuck' is considered (not sure if jokingly or seriously, but I choose seriously) one of the more versatile words in the English language, for how it can be used and applied.

It's usually used for emphasis, though, above all other things. And while too much emphasis leads to no emphasis, you can see that it's never meant to hurt someone with its usage. Not on any game I've played, anyway.

That "never" in the second-to-last sentence is quite, quite hyperbolic. Please tell me you realize this.

I think this is a cultural thing, albeit one that's something of a shrinking minority. I grew up in a conservative area around adults, which in practice means that people are the same as they are everywhere but they don't swear in polite conversation. If someone says "fuck" they are either in the military and speaking to other military folk, or are in no way trying to make polite conversation. To undo's post 145 and the terms of calling someone an idiot, I can respect being impolite to make a point and showing marked displeasure while doing so (i.e.

getting things done

) but being frivolous about it comes across as being offensive for its own sake. I still don't see how "fuck" or any other swear works except

because

they're intended to be vulgar or offensive.

For what it's worth and recognizing I'm in a minority, if you got me worked up to the point where I said "fuck you" - which would take a

lot

of working up because that's the sort of phrase used by people who are more interested in being vulgar than being coherent given the obvious subject-verb disagreement - it would probably accompanied by a qualification like "with a toilet scrubber", and I would actually mean I want you to shove a foreign object into one of your orifices so hard that it punches your kidney, with the implication that if you're having trouble doing so I would be standing by to help. To date, no one has pushed me this far. This is not intended to be a challenge.

Not to mention, "cursing to be edgy" is disingenuous as fuck anyhow when you consider I recently made an MD thread and video imploring people not to rage.

No joke, kuribo, I thought that was a joke thread until three minutes ago.

[mastin2]

'Idiot' is an insult, and insults are meant to offend.

Except it really, really, really isn't? I'll call myself an idiot if I've done something stupid; I'm far less inclined to call myself a shithead. I apply the same rule to others as I do for myself. They're being stupid, I'm going to say they're being stupid and tell them they're being idiots. That doesn't mean I think they have a reduced amount of intelligence outside the game and have been slighted by my words. It means they're making a mistake in a game that I'm telling them not to make because I think the mistake stupid.

Since when is verbal abuse expected to be an integral part of any game? The fact that it is "a game" should not be an excuse for being rude and lout.

Verbal abuse is not. Humanity clashing with each other is. Humans having deep disagreements with one another is. Humans overcoming those differences, if not in the game then after it, is. I might feel like reaching through the computer monitor and strangling a player on the other side in-game, but post-game we're just two people and I never would. It's a fight. An argument.

So basically you agree with me. Insulting is not part of the game.

Not exactly, but close enough.

It's just that your definition of insult (not the word I'd choose to convey the message) is...really, really weird.

That "never" in the second-to-last sentence is quite, quite hyperbolic. Please tell me you realize this.

Never in site history, of course. Just an incredible rarity. Never in my personal experience, not really; I meant it. Because it doesn't come up often, I haven't seen it.

I grew up in a conservative area around adults, which in practice means that people are the same as they are everywhere but they don't swear in polite conversation.

So did I. I'm talking about them being so rare that I didn't really have exposure to the words until I think I was something like 14. Obviously I would have heard them before then, but so rare that they never filtered into my mind.

It's still used as I said it. In an environment not meant to be polite, or in a polite environment, whispered quite literally into my ear. (For instance? Square dancing. INCREDIBLY polite. No curse words dropped, not even from adolescents who normally would drop them. No vulgar language at all, no innuendos, just simple maturity. They'll still say them, though, just...literally whispering it into your ear so that nobody else hears you having said it. Even if your conversation was already private!) And it was used as a

compliment

. ("You're just..." [other words failing them, so they go to whisper], "fucking awesome", is quite literally the ending of a conversation I had with someone.)

[Mr. Flay]

All extremists should be shot.

By which I mean, both sides are wrong, and willfully ignoring each other. There is a place for trash-talk in games. There is no need to go about telling people to kill themselves, violate themselves, or quit the game.

[Nero Cain]

not really interested in reading everything in this thread but there is a huge difference between going out of your way to insult a player for no reason and getting in an argument and trading jabs.

Abusive players should be site punished me thinks.