NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

VitR switch your vote to jelly

[VitaminR]

I was actually just about to post that I am significantly more suspicious of pj with that response. He seems overly concerned with keeping pressure on me rather than trying to understand my point of view.

One of the broad generalizations I remember from my time here is that on day 1 people often lynched a pro-town player because people were arguing against the theory of what they said. Intent > content.

I'm going to go one step further from a previous statement and say there is very little that MafiaSSK has posted that I agree with.

Swimming past the bullshit

that is just a gross metaphor. Let me try again.

Putting aside all the fanfare, I suspect that MafiaSSK's actions are efforts to find scum.

But it's just so weird! MafiaSSK basically says we should all vote for Glork to gain information and then votes for Tigris for starting a different bandwagon, thus starting a different bandwagon.

If MafiaSSK turns out to be scum, it also kind of ruins my theory that scum decided to parrot PJ (or is PJ) and jump on the wagon.

Incidentally, this post makes me think StD is town. This is basically exactly how I feel about the MafiaSSK wagon.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I agree, that's why we should vote for jelly now.

[VitaminR]

Eh, the LML wagon is finally building up a little bit. I like to keep the pressure up at least until he actually contributes a little bit more.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote petroleum, vote LML

I will revisit this suspicion later.

[Yosarian2]

Hey. I'm back. Half asleep, but back.

I'm getting some weird vibes off of Undo's posting so far this game. Kind of wishy-washy. Kisses up to everyone in first post, votes DGB "as homage". ? Says MafiaSSK's post #45 " doesn't look right", but then hedges that read, and doesn't vote. Takes off random vote on DGB without voting anyone else. Then later votes SSK. fos:Undo Posting and voting pattern so far looks overly cautious.

May I recommend you to get some sleep then? Your acumen seems to be impaired

No, but seriously, you've just made a chronological list of some of my actions in this game. What's actually suspicious about them? The fact that I am excited to be playing this game (shame on you for dismissing my sincere first post as fawning!)? The fact that I don't vote when I don't find anything immediately voteworthy?

Not everyone plays the same way. I for one don't follow my gut. I don't go voting or fosing people without having minimally solid arguments to do it. If you take one action that I find dubious but not necessarily scummy, I'll take note of it for myself. If you keep on acting dubiously, I will have reasons to find you scummy and evidence to justify my read.

I've been asking questions to several players (some of which remain unresponded) to collect material, so to speak -- but until I form anything valid and concrete from that material, I keep my votes to myself.

In general, your play thus far looked overly cautious for day 1, like you were trying extra hard to stay on good terms with everyone. If there's any point at all to random voting, it's to try to create pressure or get something moving early in the game, but you placed your random vote in such a way as to make sure it didn't create any pressure, and the you dropped it without explaining why and without voting anyone else, at a time when no one else was voting DGB. You seemed to imply that you thought SSK was suspicious, but would rather vote for nobody then vote for him; you then voted for him eventually, but you seemed hesitant to do so, and joined the wagon fairly late. (In fact, i would say that SSK actually looked less scummy when you voted him then he did when you declined to do so). Your first comment about SSK seemed kind of wishy-washy, trying to both say you understood why he looked suspicious while negating that in the same sentence.

In my experience, scum tend to be more cautious then town; they hesitate about voting, they try to avoid making any "enemies", they are more inclined to be wishy-washy and to try to have it both ways then to make a strong stand on anything, all because their main goal is to never get lynched; and that's been my impression of your play so far.

I see what you mean. So considering you think VitR is scum, are you townreading LML, PJ, and Seol?

I think VitR is somewhat suspicious. If we lynch him he does flip scum, then that would make LML look more town-ish to me. I'm not sure it would say much about Jelly or about Seol.

[Shanba]

All my friends on the Seolwagon are leaving me for the LMLwagon and I don't even really know what the LMLwagon is for!

Then again, I was never really sure why most of the people on the Seolwagon were on the Seolwagon anyway.

Since it was such a weak wagon and Seol didn't come in snarling and ripping people aside, he must be scum with a guilty conscience, right? (Note: not

entirely

serious here.)

[Yosarian2]

Incidentally, I am SUPER DUPER AMUSED that people are crying foul at MafiaSSK's "big wagons good" theory, when

at the time he referred to my wagon as "almighty" he jumped AWAY from it, thereby creating a greater spread of votes.

Like, this wagon is legit based on nothing SSK did to actually hurt the game, and just on his theory crafting.

Getting townie vibes from Glork here. His posting about the SSK wagon just feels honest to me.

People who are likely town-

Chamber
Glork
GreenCrayons

DGB and Albert also feel like they're playing within their normal day 1 pro-town meta, leaning town on both of them.

[undo]

In general, your play thus far looked overly cautious for day 1, like you were trying extra hard to stay on good terms with everyone. If there's any point at all to random voting, it's to try to create pressure or get something moving early in the game, but you placed your random vote in such a way as to make sure it didn't create any pressure, and the you dropped it without explaining why and without voting anyone else, at a time when no one else was voting DGB. You seemed to imply that you thought SSK was suspicious, but would rather vote for nobody then vote for him; you then voted for him eventually, but you seemed hesitant to do so, and joined the wagon fairly late. (In fact, i would say that SSK actually looked less scummy when you voted him then he did when you declined to do so). Your first comment about SSK seemed kind of wishy-washy, trying to both say you understood why he looked suspicious while negating that in the same sentence.

Eh, I am not sure you have understood my posts then, because you're distorting their significance.

If there's any point at all to random voting, it's to try to create pressure or get something moving early in the game, but you placed your random vote in such a way as to make sure it didn't create any pressure, and the you dropped it without explaining why and without voting anyone else, at a time when no one else was voting DGB

The point of random voting is subject of much debate, as we have already observed in this game. I don't care much for RV, so I saw it as a compliment opportunity. I eventually dropped it because it was no longer valid (it was a RV, remember) -- and I thought that was pretty clear.

You seemed to imply that you thought SSK was suspicious, but would rather vote for nobody then vote for him

You are referring to my post 115, where I

never

implied I thought SSK was suspicious. When I said "it didn't look right to me", I was saying I didn't agree with his theory -- his theory didn't look right to me -- but that defending one controversial theory about RVS was not enough for me to find him scummy.

you then voted for him eventually, but you seemed hesitant to do so, and joined the wagon fairly late. (In fact, i would say that SSK actually looked less scummy when you voted him then he did when you declined to do so)

I voted for him because between one post and another, he kept on coming out with some hardly defensable conjectures (I'm mainly referring to his posts 156 and 173). When he said he thought CES's post 137 (and I invite you to read it again) was scum

discreetly

showing agreement with a scum partner, he really just seemed desperate to come up with any connection, any valid suspicion that could shake off the heat he had on him.

I can't really understand how you (or any others who agree with you) can think MafiaSSK looked more scummy before those posts. In my opinion, his first posts were too isolated to indicate scumminess. But when he just kept on acting dubiously, he started to be readable in a whole other light.

As I've told you, I vote when I have reasons to do it. I've got my eyes on some players more than others, but for the moment, MafiaSSK is the one player who gave me more justifiable reasons to be suspicious of -- that's why my vote is currently on him. It's as simple as that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Thanks for your patience.. catching up now.

[Green Crayons]

I don't really care for PJ's Post 244, but I can't put my finger on why. It doesn't make me want to vote him, though. It strikes me as off, but not necessarily because of scumminess. For example, maybe I'm just not used to PJ's play style -- I

think

we played mafiachat games together before, but that was long ago and I don't really know how well that translates relative to forum games.

I recognize that this is pretty wishy-washy stuff, but I'm just noting it now for future reference, so I can come back to it if I can eventually identify what's bothering me about it.


Much like:

I wasn't voting VitaminR,

I would probably vote seol (I find his Post 162 not sitting well with me)

, MrBuddyLee (one post all game), and maybe even LoudmouthLee (for reasons I'm letting simmer).

I can thank Glork for pointing out why seol's post rubbed me the wrong way: "Like, this wagon is legit based on nothing SSK did to actually hurt the game, and just on his theory crafting." seol's Post 162 is a defiant "I'm going to vote MafiaSSK because his bandwagon theory is bad."

Having a bad bandwagon theory is indicative of having a bad bandwagon theory. I don't see how it's alignment indicative, but seol is flying that flag as if it's golden material.

[Yosarian2]

I voted for him because between one post and another, he kept on coming out with some hardly defensable conjectures (I'm mainly referring to his posts 156 and 173). When he said he thought CES's post 137 (and I invite you to read it again) was scum

discreetly

showing agreement with a scum partner, he really just seemed desperate to come up with any connection, any valid suspicion that could shake off the heat he had on him.

Ok. How would you distinguish between "SSK is acting scummy" and "SSK has a very different view on mafia theory and scumhunting tactics then I do" here? I certainly agree that looking for association tells on day 1 between random people seems like a bizzare way to scumhunt, but I'm not really understanding the scum motivation here, or why you think that's more likely to come from scum then town.

[Yosarian2]

The quite tags in that post got messed up somehow; that quote was from Undo, not from me.

[Natirasha]

I'm lurking.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If you want to be annoying, Nat, can you at least be a bit respectful about it?

More votes for Seol, please.

[Yosarian2]

I'm lurking.

I know you replaced in late, but that was 2 days ago, and the thread is only 11 page long.

I'm going to give you another 24 hours to read the thread and post something intelligent about it. If you haven't done so by then, I'm going to vote for you.

[DrippingGoofball]

Unvote, vote Petroleumjelly

"May switch my vote soon" is scummy.

True, that.

[Patrick]

Votecount

LoudmouthLee (5) -- DrippingGoofball, VitaminR, Albert B. Rampage, Untrod Tripod, Save the Dragons
Tigris (1) -- MrBuddyLee
MafiaSSK (6) -- Tigris, petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, CrashTextDummie, undo
Seol (6) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Glork, Natirasha
VitaminR (2) -- Yosarian2, Green Crayons
Save the Dragons (1) -- LoudmouthLee
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- MafiaSSK

Not voting: Nobody
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Sotty7]

Sotty thoughts on LML and petroleumjelly?

LML is probably scum, his early jump on both the early wagons was pretty weak and his movement away hasn't swayed my mind away from this. I'm looking to see what his post weekend posts have to say about the state of the game.

PJ on the other hand feels very much like PJ from the mountainous we just finished so I'm not looking to lynch him any time soon but his suspicions are pretty terrible at this point.

In contrast, Vitamin slandered the players themselves ("Feels like a bunch of strong players going for an easy target.") To me, this denotes a scum mentality: attacking the players, rather than the rationale for their votes, to get the attention on the who instead of the why. This leads to identity-based suspicion rather than suspicion based on players who pushed bad reasons to lynch people.

I explicitly stated that I agreed with VitR's conclusions. Does that change anything?

[Porochaz]

I agree with PJ's thoughts on MafiaSSK. It's a similar tell to the one I caught UT with in the last Oldy, though it's not as strong here. I also think Yos has decent points against VitR, though I'll withhold judgement on him until I see a response. In addition to those, the one person who stood out to me was chamber:

Yeaaah. I'm going to be less confident this game just because people have old styles, but that screams scum to me.

This to me is the scummiest post of the game so far. It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum") and at the same time cushioned by the "reduced confidence". He's preemptively giving himself an out on the grounds that people are hard to read. VitR challenged him on this and he defended his position on two occasions, and yet he dropped her completely to join the Seol bandwagon for reasons unknown (Tigris was at 6, Seol at 3).

vote: chamber

In other news, I found Tigris' response to my question to be reasonable and she looks decently town to me. Same goes for PJ and Yos and, to a lesser degree, StD.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure ABR is pulling reads out of his ass:

People I'm willing to lynch:

Petrolumjelly
Glork
LoudMouthLee

People I think are town:

DGB
VitaminR
farside22

DGB and farside town reads look particularly far-fetched.

I really hate this post (and the one after). I am not sure a lack of reasoning, especially from chamber is worthy of a vote. Particularly because I don't see a huge reason not to change at that point? 128 and 129 look very superficial, I don't see them as actual reasons for them being scum.

[undo]

If you want to be annoying, Nat, can you at least be a bit respectful about it?

More votes for Seol, please.

So how's Paris, CES? You still haven't responded to my question, by the way.

Ok. How would you distinguish between "SSK is acting scummy" and "SSK has a very different view on mafia theory and scumhunting tactics then I do" here? I certainly agree that looking for association tells on day 1 between random people seems like a bizzare way to scumhunt, but I'm not really understanding the scum motivation here, or why you think that's more likely to come from scum then town.

It's one thing to have different views on scumhunting tactics, it's another to say that a post which explicitly states "I agree with the person who posted right before me" is discreet. There's not much room for different opinions there. As I've said before, it looks like MafiaSSK was desperate to find some kind of association that could divert the negative attention he was getting and at the same time make him look like he was scumhunting and contributing positively. Only he just calls even more negative attention to himself when he does that in such an absurd way (at least in my view).

[Porochaz]

And in regards to CES, why should I not take his posts at face value? Or be able to analyze them for what they say? Where is the bright line drawn where I can analyze posts at their own value? 6 posts? 500+ word posts?

This made me laugh, would read again.

Seriously though, not sure what you are doing but your over analysing quite majorly. To an extent where I find it scummy. Im also not sure your last paragraph in 173 and your play so far match.

(Also weasel mafia is a long ago game that I am still "upset" about, thanks to Glork single handedly getting me mislynched - for those that are wondering)

[Seol]

I've been prodded.

I haven't caught up yet. I will do so tomorrow evening.

[Porochaz]

Yeah Im not exactly in the mood for big huge posts but Ill try and keep up to date and post a little often.

[Porochaz]

I'm lurking.

Stop being an asshole.