NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[LoudmouthLee]

1.)

LoudmouthLee, you've twice made a reference to the Daytalk speculation (Post 601 and Post 653), both times essentially saying you find such speculation suspicious. But you have not clarified who you are suspicious of -- reading your posts it almost seems like you are suspicious of

me

for following up with MafiaSSK. Could you clarify?

Are you still suspicious of the MafiaSSK slot (now mathcam)? You seem to be avoiding saying as much.

2.)

I am not surprised that a MafiaSSK/LoudmouthLee pairing had occurred to me earlier, as now I am also seeing a mathcam/LoudmouthLee pairing.

LoudmouthLee jumped on others saying that MafiaSSK's replace out "looked Town" as a reason for not voting for the slot today, but the more I look at it the more of an excuse it is looking like to not vote for mathcam.

3.)

I am not a fan of Bookitty's "martyr" post; if she believed it she would have voted for herself (which would also be annoying). "Martyr" posts, if done by Town or Scum, almost necessarily must come from players who are going to claim Vanilla Townie, so I do not consider that a point in her favor. Just because some players (e.g., Glork) would apparently try to draw out power roles does not mean every other player would do the same.

4.)

Not particularly interested in the Cogito Ergo Sum wagon; it largely looks like a bad "Cogito Ergo Sum v Bookitty" dichotomy.

That said, Glork, what were the "~reasons~" you mentioned about him earlier.

~

I am still willing to vote Bookitty.

Unvote: Bookitty

Vote: LoudmouthLee

This day needs to get a move-on. Deadline is Wednesday and there are not reduced-majority rules for lynching. We

must

get twelve votes to achieve a lynch. Rather than failing to get something together or lynching last-minute, let's get it done. Players with votes that are unlikely to lead to a lynch need to compromise and move elsewhere or else actually argue and pursue their top choice instead of idly sitting on their votes.

I'm still suspicious of the daytalk. I just don't know why ANYONE would assume it's in the game. Rule #1 of Mafia, Lynch all Liars. Rule #2, when someone has too much information, there's generally a good reason.

I need to go back and see who brought up the idea of the Mafia Encryptor first.

With that being said, good job having your prints on two different major wagons at the same time, PJ. That's what caused me to get "heat" to begin with, being both concerned about MafiaSSK and Tigris.

[petroleumjelly]

^
LoudmouthLee,

1.)

MafiaSSK made a post where he assumed the Mafia did not have Daytalk to support his Cogito Ergo Sum / CrashTextDummie case. I then questioned him about it. You (and mathcam) alleged (or implied) that of course the Mafia does not have Daytalk, to which I responded, explaining that Mafia Daytalk has become increasingly common and there is in fact an explicitly Normal role -- Mafia Encryptor -- that enables (and upon death, disables) Mafia Daytalk. In doing so, I also pointed out that MafiaSSK has both played and moderated games with Mafia Daytalk very recently (all in 2014), and so his assumption of no Mafia Daytalk does not conform very well to his recent experience.

That is the bite-sized history of the Mafia Daytalk discussion. Like I suspected, you are acting like the person who brought up the possibility of a Mafia Encryptor (me) is more suspicious than the person who assumed no Mafia Daytalk (MafiaSSK).

2.)

How is my opinion on two different major wagons at the same time at all relevant? That is a pretty sorry job at both myself and the players who suspected you for your early Tigris/MafiaSSK vote/FoS.

3.)

You did not answer my question:

Are you still suspicious of the MafiaSSK slot (now mathcam)? You seem to be avoiding saying as much.

[chamber]

I also pointed out that MafiaSSK has both played and moderated games with Mafia Daytalk very recently

Was he scum in said games? As town you don't always notice things like that post game.

[Zorblag]

Patrick, please do replace me at this point

.

I apologize to everyone, but for both the long term health of the game and my personal enjoyment of fleeting free time this is the correct move.


-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Wrong.

I have considered what you have to say.

I disagree with it entirely.

Because I disagree with you you're accusing me of not considering it.

Do I need to treat you like you're six years old? Just because I haven't given a lengthy treatise about my entire train of thought doesn't mean I haven't thought about it.

I'm not accusing you of not considering it because you're espousing a different point of view, I'm accusing you of that because your response to other people pushing other perspectives, like me or Sotty, is not to provide arguments against it but merely restate your point of view and just pretend that that automatically invalidates our perspectives. See you telling me "And beyond the WIFOM of "giving up" to be lynched, there's not really a reason to conclude that this is scum behavior." when I have given reasons you have in no way addressed, see you just telling Sotty7 "Are you drunk? Do you even read?". I don't care for your train of thought, I do care that since you decided the "martyr" post was a town tell, you've been dismissing other perspectives rather than engaging people and arguing your case.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think CES is town. (Yeah, I know he's voting me, which makes him wrong, but it doesn't make him scum.) I played with him when he was scum in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and he played completely different to this; he was accommodating and moved from lynch to lynch without making himself a target like he's doing here. I realise this was a number of years ago, but I don't think he would death tunnel on me like this if he were scum. People with more recent meta can weigh in, but I am not seeing it myself.

Fun fact: that was Cogito Ergo Scum (note the c in Scum and how it's not in my username).

I've stated repeatedly that I've considered the dissenting opinion, but CES claims I haven't considered it.

Stating something is different from doing it. Saying "Buuuuuuut she's not." also doesn't count as an argument, just fyi.

[Bookitty]

Well, crap.

Never mind then. I have no meta read on CES at all.

Glork is right, though. Sotty7 isn't reading the game. Otherwise she wouldn't be asking questions that I'd already answered about two pages previous.

[Save The Dragons]

I think at this point, I would be happy to place my vote on Bookitty, PJ, or LML.

There's a couple other people I could see myself voting, but I'm more suspicious of the three I've mentioned and don't think people would go for anyone else anyway.

If we are not doing Bookitty, then

Vote: LML

[DrippingGoofball]

Yeah, no, changed my mind again, CES is town.

[DrippingGoofball]

Let's do this:

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Iso him and find your own reasons!

[Save The Dragons]

Let's do this:

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

Iso him and find your own reasons!

No.

At this point I'd rather vote for you than him, tbh.

[Patrick]

inHimshallibe replaces Zorblag.

[Patrick]

Votecount

LoudmouthLee (5) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2, VitaminR, petroleumjelly, Save the Dragons
Kublai Khan (1) -- MrBuddyLee
mathcam (1) -- CrashTextDummie
Bookitty (7) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Untrod Tripod, mathcam, undo
petroleumjelly (2) -- LoudmouthLee, Bookitty
Porochaz (1) -- inHimshallibe
Untrod Tripod (1) -- DrippingGoofball
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) -- Albert B. Rampage, Glork

Not voting: Kublai Khan, Porochaz
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Untrod Tripod]

I can do LML, but why are we not doing Bookitty, STD?

[Save The Dragons]

This town has had trouble getting it up.

[Untrod Tripod]

the hell we do

[undo]

Just stopping by to express my disappointment with Bookitty's wagon losing steam.

@Porochaz: thanks man.

[Porochaz]

Right Im shattered (posting last night at 1/2am) so apologies for this truncated thing.

The last section.

Page 26.

Bookys suspicions seem to be all the people who have some suspicions against them.

I also want to here Sottys case on Booky, because I've floated back over to the Sotty is scummy side. There hasn't been much pro-activeness on your end. I don't feel and with the accusations that you aren't reading the game, I want proof that you are.

Page 27.
The Green Crayons case in 653 was fun. Im not sure where rolefishing came from there.

I also don't understand why at no point during the Encryptor conversation, you didn't spend some time doing your research? The normal game has evolved over time, Im not sure why you thought it was going to be run a certain way...

657, MafiaSSK was lurking, how do you make a case against someone who isn't there? Your wasting your breath by doing so. Apart from anything else, there has been a lot of other things going on.

Furthermore your statement on LML doesn't make sense.

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him.

I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote.

He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

These aren't consistent.

661, feels like desperation from LML, passing the buck to CTD.

Page 28

In regards to ABR, I haven't played with him in years, Im going based on a memory. He does feel to be holding back a bit at the moment though.

Page 29, Glorks CES vote is a bit useless, especially since CES hasn't played outwith the meta I have of him. Im struggling with you Glork, because I don't think I've agreed with much of what you have said this game.

Page 30, my only note is about DGB. There is a difference between making short, concise posts and coasting along.

[Porochaz]

So I think if people have been reading my PBPA my scum suspects are pretty obvious. SSK and mathcam seem to be getting a free pass for lurking at the right time. I am not okay with that. Im also not okay with some of mathcams thoughts later on. Undo has been particularly bad but I look forward into getting myself stuck into that one tomorrow. At this point, because he just beat undo in the scumminess title race, and its supremely obvious that we have stalled over the last 10 pages. Certainly it has felt more strained the last 10 pages. Things about LML's play dont really add up. The excel spreadsheet, the VI wagons, the Encryptor...

vote LML

[mathcam]

I disagree that these are inconsistent. An oversimplification: as I read through, I assign little +1's and -1's to people if their post strikes me as pro-town or scummy (with most posts getting a neutral 0). Most people accrue some of both. In this game, moreso than usual, I have lots of people with more town points than scum points. But in all of LML's posts thus far, I haven't marked a single one as pro-town. This lack of pro-town posts, even in the absence of anything overarchingly scummy, makes him an acceptable lynch for me today.

Welcome, inhim! Long time no see!

[CrashTextDummie]

Post 494: I've finally found a way to put into words what's been bothering me about Green Crayons. He seems to have a strong penchant for getting into pedantic and verbose arguments over minutiae, and I'm getting the feeling that he's arguing for argument's sake. Not a front runner suspect (for one thing, I liked that he called out Zorblag), but his play strikes me as off. The fact that chamber calls him out on this makes me feel better about chamber.

Compare and contrast his UT vote with his PJ case. I think LML is actually trying to lynch PJ. Note that PJ actually has a bandwagon against him, and is also probably a more significant threat to LML at the moment. I don't think LML was actually trying to lynch UT; I don't think he really cared one way or the other, he just wanted to look like he was doing something. The style of attack is quite different.

This is the most convincing argument against LML I have seen so far.

Hi. I'm here. Interest me.

Engaged when he's under the spotlight, "not interested" when he's not. Still a strong scum read.

Zorblag keeping pressure on Porochaz after he started to post and give opinions on the game seems pretty harsh. The reason he got Zor's vote was his lack of content now he provides such content you're going to call his motivation into question? Damned if you do damned if you don't. If you don't like the content at least pull something out of it to argue, the whole you dismissing it was pretty funky and I even hate pbpa's.

Yes. Substitute "harsh" with "scummy" and you have *goodposting*

1.) MafiaSSK, why do you believe the scum in this game do not have daytalk?

PJ is clearly paying attention. His play so far looks fine to me.

Isn't this pretty much the exact reason that PJ is voting LML? The VCA's are at least an important pillar of his case of right now combined with the lack of context supplied with the VCA. Your entrance into the game seems to try to defend LML's VCA by saying scum wouldn't work to provide such content and as such PJ's vote is overly opportunistic because of it. In this quote though you basically agree with PJ but then defer to Glork's "superior" scum hunting abilities by saying this wagon on LML is too easy. I just don't see how you can vote PJ if this is your true opinion on LML with your initial read though.

If you truly believe that someone on LML is opportunistic scum why am I seeing no content on Green Crayons or Yos? It's just a laser beam focus on PJ despite having read the game several times according to you. Doesn't add up.

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to BooKitty and I didn't find her predecessor's play as problematic as some others, but I could see myself sheeping Sotty here.

I don't like this shift from petroleumjelly.

I am not surprised.

LoudmouthLee (3) -- Green Crayons, Yosarian2, petroleumjelly
Kublai Khan (1) -- MrBuddyLee
MafiaSSK (2) -- CrashTextDummie, undo
Bookitty (6) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Untrod Tripod, Save the Dragons
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- MafiaSSK
petroleumjelly (4) -- Albert B. Rampage, VitaminR, LoudmouthLee, Bookitty
Porochaz (2) -- DrippingGoofball, Zorblag
Yosarian2 (1) -- Glork

That BooKitty wagon is pretty damn glorious.

[VitaminR]

There's NO WAY that CES is looking town right now. Vote him.

I'm like 99% sure CES is town. His MO as scum is to be jokey and stay in the background, so you can't really pin him down on a real opinion. He wouldn't go out on a limb to try to make a case against BooKitty. And there's certainly no way that he would wade into a lengthy(-ish) and serious argument with Glork.

[VitaminR]

Also, DGB and mathcam are probably town.

[CrashTextDummie]

MafiaSSK is a town replace-out.

No, it's not. Perhaps DBG's town proclaimments wouldn't bother me as much if four fifths of them weren't this baffling.

CTD - What do you think of Yos post 568?

I think that midway through the post, he finally realized Tigris' name isn't Tigras! first On a more serious note, I think it's a solid piece of scum hunting on Yos' part and I'm beginning to lean town on him. Don't see it as a damning argument against LML though, I still haven't fully wrapped my head around his play.

Seriously, I wouldn't care if he random vote Tigris, and I wouldn't care if he voted Tigris because he thought Tigris was scummy. I also wouldn't care if he changed his mind. The way he's trying to have it both ways, though, feels scummy; it feels like he knew his Tigris vote was bad and was trying to distance himself from it, or else like he's trying to do a lot of tapdancing to make it look like his scumhunting was more honest then it actually was.

Oh I see what you're getting at now, Sotty. It's a remarkably similar argument to the one I made against MafiaSSK. I disagree with Yos' conclusions here mainly because I think the quote from LML's #302 is a sufficiently reasonable explanation for what was going on. I'd be interested in hearing Yos' thoughts on MafiaSSK in light of this post though.

You know DGB like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, right?

She's actually mostly been throwing flowers at the wall, which generally don't stick at all.

I'm going to be charitable and assume there's something here I misunderstood. Caught for the wrong reasons?

I'm thankful someone else picked up on this.

I never got a very strong read, but felt null to scum based on posts. The replace-out (agreement with DGB) seems like a pro-town replace out than a scum replace out. There really wasn't any more pressure on MafiaSSK.

Is pressure the only reason scum would replace out?

Post 602 is solid scum hunting by undo. He can be town.

BooKitty's #604, in which she declares herself a good lynch, strikes me as calculated and survivalistic. More specifically, it makes her preceding posts look survivalistic. It feels like when her rambling game summary didn't dissuade people from voting her, she changed tactics (literally announcing that she wasn't going to continue her analysis) and tried a different approach to get people to sympathize with her. It definitely doesn't seem like catching scum is high on her agenda.

Not remembering the reason you suspect someone. In my experience you are significantly more likely to forget reasons you had to make up than reasons you actually felt and reached yourself.

I agree.

This type of speculation seems VERY odd to me. I need to admit, I have NEVER heard of this role before, and would have NEVER assumed it to be part of the game. Considering this to be a game of Oldy Mafia, I find it somewhat telling that people would assume a role that was not prevalent "in the good old days" would be here. WIFOMing the setup and the mod seems so odd in this case, and moreso, because this seems like a special role.

@Rest of you -> Have you heard of this encryptor before?

I assume that Patrick has kept the setup reasonably old school and that no roles are in it that old farts are not familiar with. That doesn't change the fact that PJ's theory has merit.

Hey. Not my meta, but I find it especially odd that no one at all has called out CTD for being active all over the site, but largely ignoring this game. Some of y'all hated my VCA for calling out the vote switchers, saying that I'm ignoring the people under the radar.

Nope. Some of YOU are the ones talking out of both sides of the mouth.

FoS: CtD, and anyone else on a lurker hunt who didn't call him out.

"All over the site" is hyperbolic, but a fair observation otherwise.

No, CES, she soft-claimed VT when she said lynch me. If she were scum she NEVER would have made the lynch-me post. I'm like 90% sure of it.

I disagree and I'm not sure why you're so sure of that wrong assumption.

do not lynch bookitty

This is still correct.

There's a persistent chorus of "do not lynch Bookitty" that contains Glork, Yos, ABR, GreenCrayons, DGB and maybe others. There are at least 2 scum in that list regardless of BooKitty's flip. I understand why Glork is singing the tune even if I disagree, but I don't remember seeing compelling reasoning from the rest.

Also, DGB and mathcam are probably town.

Elaborate.

[CrashTextDummie]

Started skimming towards the end there, but I'm mostly caught up.

unvote, vote: BooKitty

ABR should be vigged.