Mini 1581--The Final Radiant Tales...(Fin)

[Bert]

Why is no one bandwagoning?

VOTE: overly things

[Lying Scum]

Spoiler: Edited Vote Counts

Until there is a lynch I won't actually know how this works, but there is something screwy going on with the votes and I can't follow what's happening there, and I can't think about them properly. I'm posting these here as the votes actually were in the thread to show people's intentions, rather than what was actually counted.

The below VCs are structured thus:

Page

Voted (# of posted votes): voters who followed the unvote rule,

voter who did not use unvote before voting here

,

voter who did not use unvote before voting from here to elsewhere

Notes:

Anything I noticed in comparison to Nat's VC.

All votes listed for a particular page are all votes that were made on that page. In the case where a voter leaves a wagon to vote elsewhere without using an unvote, the previous vote is not counted in the # of posted votes.

---

Confirmation phase votes

Natirasha (4): MafiaSSK, ZZZX, snscompt1

Notes:

Actual VC shows everyone EXCEPT snscompt1 voting for themselves. Gamestart VC shows snscompt1 voting for ZZZX.

Page 2

Natirasha (2):

MafiaSSK

, KingdomAces, ZZZX,

snscompt1

ZZZX (3):

snscompt1

, Rubicon, Oversoul,

MafiaSSK

Varsoon (1): Bulbazak
KingdomAces (1): Mirhawk

Notes:

None yet - next VC is on page...

Page 3

Natirasha (1):

MafiaSSK

, ZZZX,

snscompt1

ZZZX (2):

snscompt1

,

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

Varsoon (1): Bulbazak
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk, Bert,

Oversoul

Mirhawk (1): Rubicon

Notes:

I did not see an unvote from Oversoul going from ZZZX to KingdomAces, and it appears that Nat did not penalize him for it in VC 1.2. Same for MafiaSSK from himself/modvoting to ZZZX.

Page 4

Natirasha (0):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

snscompt1

ZZZX (2):

snscompt1

,

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

Varsoon (1): Bulbazak
KingdomAces (4): Mirhawk, Bert,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (1): Rubicon
morph the cat (1): gameplay506

Notes:

None yet.

Page 5

Natirasha (1):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

snscompt1

,

Bert

ZZZX (2):

snscompt1

,

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

Varsoon (1): Bulbazak
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (1): Rubicon
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

Notes:

So, the next VC doesn't show Rubicon's vote on Mirhawk at all. He voted per the game rules. It also shows ZZZX's vote on KA, despite ZZZX not unvoting. This is very confusing. The rules state we must unvote but the mod is counting votes that were not preceded by an unvote, and not counting some votes at all.

Page 6

Natirasha (1):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

snscompt1

,

Bert

ZZZX (2):

snscompt1

,

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

Varsoon (1): Bulbazak
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (1): Rubicon
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

Notes:

WTF. The next VC shows Bert voting KA, even though he unvoted and voted morph the cat. Bert also then neglected to unvote, and voted Natirasha. AND, he put Bert's vote between second, rather than last. AND has a second vote on Mirhawk from Bert as the first vote, even though Rubicon voted him first, and now Rubicon's vote is being counted.

I don't like this. Bastard game, fine, fuck with the roles and shit and whatever, but don't fuck with the VCs... that's no fun.

Page 7

Natirasha (1):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

Bert

ZZZX (2):

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

, Lying Scum
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (3): Rubicon, Bulbazak, snscompt1
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

Notes:

Now Bert is voting himself (for zero votes). And KA. And Mirhawk is also voting himself. And KA. And Bulbazak, who correctly unvoted and voted Mirhawk, isn't listed there AT ALL, not even in the "not voting" section...

Page 8

Natirasha (0):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

Bert

ZZZX (2):

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

, Lying Scum
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (3): Rubicon, Bulbazak, snscompt1
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

gameplay (1):

Bert

Notes:

None.

Page 9

Natirasha (0):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

Bert

ZZZX (2):

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

, Lying Scum
KingdomAces (3): Mirhawk,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (3): Rubicon, Bulbazak, snscompt1
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

gameplay (1):

Bert

snscompt1 (1): morph the cat

Notes:

None

Page 10

Natirasha (0):

MafiaSSK

,

ZZZX

,

Bert

ZZZX (3):

Oversoul

,

MafiaSSK

, Lying Scum, morph the cat
KingdomAces (2):

Mirhawk

,

Oversoul

,

ZZZX

Mirhawk (3): Rubicon, Bulbazak, snscompt1
morph the cat (1): gameplay506,

Bert

gameplay (0):

Bert

snscompt1 (1):

Bert

Bert (1):

Mirhawk

Notes:

The VC shows Mirhawk voting Bert even though he did not unvote. The votes for KA are now correct as above. Bulbazak is still missing and Mirhawk still has 2 votes, one of which is on himself (but should say "Bulbazak"). Bert's vote was counted despite no unvote. Er... And Bert is also still voting for gameplay506, where his previous vote was.

So... this is a giant clusterfuck that I cannot understand. Anyone else have any ideas?

Natirasha: Are all of your posted VCs correct per your own rules/mechanics? Many votes have been counted despite the absence of a preceding unvote. Is this rule in effect or not?

ETL

[morph the cat]

I'm pretty sure that rule about unvoting has changed once or twice. :/

[Natirasha]

The currently posted rules are correct. All vote counts come with the 'I'm terrible at counting votes' warning.

[gameplay506]

So confused...So many walls...

[Lying Scum]

The currently posted rules are correct. All vote counts come with the 'I'm terrible at counting votes' warning.

See spoiler. Bulbazak magically changed to Mirhawk and is missing even though his vote on Varsoon was counted and his vote on Mirhawk was done correctly. Is this correct?

ETL

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 1.7

Here you go, EtL.

morph the cat(1):

gameplay506

Bert(1):

Mirhawk

KingdomAces(2)

: Oversoul, ZZZX

MafiaSSK(0):

Bulbazak(0):

Varsoon(0):

Mirhawk(3):

Rubicon, Bulbazak, Guyett

Lying Scum(0):

Guyett(0):

Oversoul(1):

Bert

Rubicon(0):

ZZZX(3):

MafiaSSK, Lying Scum, Morph the Cat

gameplay506(0):

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting(2):

Varsoon, KingdomAces

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

(expired on 2014-06-27 12:00:00)

[Lying Scum]

Nat: I'm sorry to be such a nitpicky butt about this, but you have morph the cat voting both snscomp1 and ZZZX; however, ZZZX was their most recent vote and they unvoted before doing so. Is that correct?

UNVOTE:

for now. Cabd and I need to talk about sns replacing out that way. In the meantime Guyett can have some catch-up space.

VOTE: ZZZX

ETL

[Natirasha]

All vote counts come with the 'I'm terrible at counting votes' warning.

[Lying Scum]

Here you go, EtL.

<3

You're the best lol...

ETL

p-edit: I know but.. I have to figure out if it's cuz you are terrible at counting or because morph has two votes.

[Lying Scum]

YAY THE VC IS CORRECT!

Ok. Nothing screwy with votes. Nat just bad at counting

ETL

[Lying Scum]

Spoiler: Gameplay506, this one is for you.

Ugh sorry all. I have been reading but I couldn't post oh uh. So now:

VOTE: morph the cat
Your posting doesn't resemble a cat's one.
Btw are you a hydra?

About everything else:
-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Assuming this is sarcasm (and that the initial vote on morph at the front of this post was your "RVS"). Can you explain why you never voted Oversoul if he was, apparently, the first on your radar for doing something you didn't like?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

What does this attitude tell you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Anything new on this?

@Morph is this a serious question?

Also KA I just like placing my RVS vote where I think is needed. At the moment I don't like how morph is reacting to it.

What didn't you like specifically and what conclusion have you come to from it?

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

That was sarcasm.

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

I don't understand what you're saying with this. Please clarify?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

Not really. But this is bastard so I would like to keep my eyes open for everything

Again, anything new here? What are your thoughts about the VCs and Bert's claim now that the issue has been cleared up?

So confused...So many walls...

Did you read them? Any questions? Any ideas?

Gameplay506 has been upgraded from Null to Maybe Town. Some very nice observations that I don't see occurring to someone not looking for them, particularly about Bulbazak.

ETL

[Lying Scum]

Spoiler: Bulbazak, I have questions for you.

Kingdom is town, btw.

Why?

The only one that I think is decently town is Bert because of the claim stuff.

Because I've played with him as town. He plays exactly like this. In fact, I think this awkwardness is more likely to come from town than scum.

Only meta? How familiar are you with his meta? For instance, I play with Guyett more than anyone else on this site. Nearly every game I play is with Guyett, either I replaced into his game, he replaced into mine, we started the game together, or we hydra'd the game. I can spot his alignment fairly well, and I'd say 98% of the time I'm correct right away. Let's call that level of familiarity a 10, and my familiarity with say, gameplay506, who I've never seen before, a 1. What's yours with KA?

Why did you vote Varsoon?

For this:

Getting scum out of fourteen people sounds difficult. D:

Plus it's Varsoon.

Why is that voteworthy? Can you expand on this a little please?

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

This is the first time you make any notion of Bert's alignment, and it's a little strange to me, especially at the time this was posted. Why are you assuming so quickly that Bert is town?

With the threat of double-voters and quick-hammers looming, can't we FoS people rather than voting?

Why are you afraid to scum hunt?

This is kind of a strange accusation. From your RVS vote, and your questioning of gameplay506, I'm curious why this happened. It almost seems like you chose someone to pick on and are continuing with it without evolving with the thread.

Don't kid yourself morph. The game was still in RVS on page 4, that's why nobody has said anything worth talking about yet.

But if you noticed some things worth talking about I'm all ears.

Why did you feel the need to interrupt the Morph/Gamer conversation?

As for the VC, I think Nati just uses the same document to update each VC and has forgot to change it. In other news, Bert is town.

K. Same question as above regarding Bert. At what point were you so convinced of his alignment?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

I think you're defense of KA against gameplay506 is really, really weird. Why are you doing it?

Also, why is Bert town?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful. Scum have a hard time faking that.

That's not true. I know that both KA and Ffery were in Dark Age of the Law where he was all sorts of playful, even after Ffery/GiF scared the crap out of him with their fake lie detector crumbs or whatever it was he thought. I'm concerned that you are "filling in the blanks", i.e. starting with a townread on someone who is easy to townread, and then just tacking on reasoning when prompted for it (rather than coming to the reasoning prior to the townread). Besides his attitude/tone, is there anything else that suggested his alignment to you?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful.

Scum have a hard time faking that.

Ah, but that raises the question: What makes you think he would have to fake it as scum?
Can he not be a carefree and playful person in general? Or can he not simply be gleeful about having a scum role? I will agree that is seems genuine, but why is that alignment indictive?

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

Yes but why does he state does facts?

Because he's Kingdom, and after having been wagoned and lynched so many times for the same thing, he doesn't learn.

More protecting KA. Why?

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

@Kingdom

I can tell that this isn't a game to joke around it. Damn. I wasn't hunting you whatsoever. My vote is on ZZZX all game thus far yes? The pokes and prods were simply to see what everyone else would do (and mostly me just having fun).

I was under the impression that you thought KA was town. What does this face indicate here..?

@Zak
What words have I put into your mouth? I'm pretty sure that I made a serious inquiry as to why you think scum bert would be incompetent enough as to not try and act like town bert.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

You do it again here. You said one thing, Mirhawk asks for a clarification, and you refuse to answer, claiming he's doing exactly what you are doing.

Yes, you said, "Scum have a hard time faking this". But Mirhawk asked, "Does scumBERT have a hard time faking this?" I am also interested in the answer, given the familiarity with his meta that you are claiming.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

And you're taking a logical question and tried to change it to an emotional one to dismiss it.

My point is simple. If bert plays a cheerful game as town, then he likely also plays a cheerful game as scum.

Unless you're suggesting he changes his entire personality for every game he plays.

And you're relying on word play to mischaracterize my argument. It had nothing to do with demeanor. It had everything to do with experience and reactions.

Same thing here. I don't see how this makes Mirhawk scum at all. In fact, it shows me that he is very interested in pinning down your exact response, which you are continuing to evade.

Bulbazak has been downgraded from Maybe Town to Maybe Scum.
Mirhawk has been upgraded from Scum to Maybe Town.
And, in the face of meta from Beli, plus stronger suspicions elsewhere, morph the cat has been upgraded to Null.

ETL

[Bulbazak]

I cleaaaaarly see that as a scum slip. Everyone should get back on that wagon.

Scum slip <> valid ongoing game. Sorry to say but I can't discuss it more. This being a bastard modding isn't helping eh? Let's say for a sec that it was a scum slip. That would mean I am a jester and shouldn't be lynched.

Your case is invalid

Why would that mean you are a jester?

ETL your read wall looks made up to me. Overly confident Bert and ZZZX town-reads. Waffles on Bulbazak, gameplay, MafiaSSK, me. Oversoul read looks fake as hell. Varsoon read looks fake. Also, calling me lynch-bait which I don't understand from our (almost nonexistent) meta experience together. Poking at the jester comment as "weird" but not expressing any opinion on it or asking me why I said it, etc.

In short, it looks like you cared more about making a long read wall post with a paragraph talking about each player than you cared about actually scumhunting based on those reads.

This looks like scum Rubi being manipulative. A first readthrough would suggest that he didn't catch or understand what ETL wrote, but that is not the case, since he comments on the lynchbait comment. It looks like he is ignoring the entirety of ETL's read posts in order to call her reads fake. If he were town that thought this, he should be able to come up with plenty of examples from her explanations, but look how he doesn't do that. It looks as if he saw the ETL/Morph argument and decided to jump in with an ETL scumread to cash in on the momentum.

[gameplay506]

Assuming this is sarcasm (and that the initial vote on morph at the front of this post was your "RVS"). Can you explain why you never voted Oversoul if he was, apparently, the first on your radar for doing something you didn't like?

Although I didn't like his jumps from one wagon to another, I don't find it to be immensely scum indicative because I have seen town sheep like this too. That's why I noted it and wanted to see more from that slot. Unfortunately I have to read his posts again because I have no idea what he has posted post my post.

What does this attitude tell you?

Again I noted something that I wanted to keep my eye for. But if I had to say something more specific then I lean slightly more to the idea that this attitude is townish because I think scum prefer to ignore the pressure until it gets down from itself. Still I saw that he has some kind of an emo phase in the beginning of the games or something like that so if this is true the former can't really be a tell.

Anything new on this?

Not really except that I see some quite big changes in his attitude. I saw that someone ( Bulbazak I guess? ) stated that Bert is playing a lot more relaxed as town compared to scum. But now I see Bert not so relaxed especially after Mirhawk placed a vote on him and he gets kinda unnecessary defensive in posts 234 and 235. Also those last two votes of his are quite a mystery to me.

What didn't you like specifically and what conclusion have you come to from it?

Again like Bert, morph suddenly jumped after I voted them and started getting defensive by being aggressive if I can say it that way. Especially the first respond to it ( 88 ) which seems somehow discrediting or at least I understood it that way.

I don't understand what you're saying with this. Please clarify?

I meant that KA was making some posts about him getting mislynched as town and some things like that and that's why I thought he was worried.

Again, anything new here? What are your thoughts about the VCs and Bert's claim now that the issue has been cleared up?

I don't like Bert's claim. From one side it he had to claim because sooner or later someone was going to notice it, but from the other I found his claim to be somehow too early in the game. I mean if I was a double voter I would like to be quite until somebody notices the VC and then claim, instead of claiming right away in the beginning. I really think it is more beneficial to scum and also it doesn't help town since obviously there are scum and town doublevoters.

Did you read them? Any questions? Any ideas?

I tried reading them but I really couldn't get the point of them and so I left them.

[Lying Scum]

Again, anything new here? What are your thoughts about the VCs and Bert's claim now that the issue has been cleared up?

I don't like Bert's claim. From one side it he had to claim because sooner or later someone was going to notice it, but from the other I found his claim to be somehow too early in the game. I mean if I was a double voter I would like to be quite until somebody notices the VC and then claim, instead of claiming right away in the beginning. I really think it is more beneficial to scum and also it doesn't help town since obviously there are scum and town doublevoters.

I think either scum or town would want to keep it under wraps until necessary; however, I also think this is true moreso for scum, since it has more utility for scum to keep it quiet, whereas revealing it as town lets the rest of the town know to keep an eye on the votes.

Did you read them? Any questions? Any ideas?

I tried reading them but I really couldn't get the point of them and so I left them.

I'm assuming here that you're referring to my argument with morph the cat? I think it's important for you to read them if only to know what people are saying regarding it, but also to get a better gauge on both our alignments. I'm interested to hear your thoughts about morph when you finish that.

Bulbazak,

I disagree with your assessment of Rubicon's posts towards me. I think his entire reaction to me calling him lynchbait is more likely town than scum.

ETL

[Lying Scum]

(Side note, if it isn't clear, I'm currently refining my null and "maybe" reads.)

Spoiler: MafiaSSK, please post more

So. I don't know if voting can begin yet nor has Nat when asked given me any indication to saying that I can or cannot vote. So I'm going to try a couple of things.

Vote: Natirasha

FoS: SSK

Did you learn anything useful from this experiment?

I'm joining the ZZZX wagon.

VOTE: ZZZX

Why?

Summary of ETL's current reads:

Town {Bert, Oversoul, ZZZX}
Maybe Town {Bulbazak}
Null {gameplay506, MafiaSSK, snscompt1}
Maybe Scum {KingdomAces, Rubicon, Varsoon}
Scum {Mirhawk, morph the cat}

Honestly, when I was finished, I felt like I was way off track and had far too many scum reads to know where to begin, but I'm rather impressed with myself. This is a great place to start for me. This is gonna be a good game.

Still need to get with Beli about it, but I feel good about these.

ETL

p-edit: That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to read him, and it doesn't really tell me what you think of his slot.

i think I have to agree with the suspicious quality of the readslist here. It is as if you're just putting a bunch of names down without having to add that much more of effort. If you're going to do a readslist, make it full explain it fully for even the null ones. Don't just selectively highlight.

But I think ETL is looking town via the quote wall back and forth.

This is the closest you've come to making any kind of committing statement. I need more from you. I can't work with this.

Answer honestly, are you reading the game fully? Like, can you give me some insight into how you are playing here? What are you focusing on? Are you paying attention? What are you thinking? Who are you suspecting? Why? Who do you think is town and why? What are you planning to do with your vote? Do you have any special observations that you think would be worth sharing? Give me something...

*sigh* MafiaSSK remains at null...

Snscompt1/Guyett will have to wait until Guyett posts/talks to me. And I've run out of steam for the moment, but KA and Varsoon are next. Probably get to this later this afternoon or tomorrow if I get too busy here at work.

ETL

[Bulbazak]

Kingdom is town, btw.

Why?

The only one that I think is decently town is Bert because of the claim stuff.

Because I've played with him as town. He plays exactly like this. In fact, I think this awkwardness is more likely to come from town than scum.

Only meta? How familiar are you with his meta? For instance, I play with Guyett more than anyone else on this site. Nearly every game I play is with Guyett, either I replaced into his game, he replaced into mine, we started the game together, or we hydra'd the game. I can spot his alignment fairly well, and I'd say 98% of the time I'm correct right away. Let's call that level of familiarity a 10, and my familiarity with say, gameplay506, who I've never seen before, a 1. What's yours with KA?

I've played with KA as town a couple of times, and he did the same thing. For familiarity, I'd give him a 5.

Why did you vote Varsoon?

For this:

Getting scum out of fourteen people sounds difficult. D:

Plus it's Varsoon.

Why is that voteworthy? Can you expand on this a little please?

He's trying to avoid taking any type of stand. His post might as well be translated as "Why should I vote? We're not going to lynch scum anyway.", which is a scummy response.

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

This is the first time you make any notion of Bert's alignment, and it's a little strange to me, especially at the time this was posted. Why are you assuming so quickly that Bert is town?

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

With the threat of double-voters and quick-hammers looming, can't we FoS people rather than voting?

Why are you afraid to scum hunt?

This is kind of a strange accusation. From your RVS vote, and your questioning of gameplay506, I'm curious why this happened. It almost seems like you chose someone to pick on and are continuing with it without evolving with the thread.

I'd expect Varsoon as town to be doing some sort of scumhunting, instead of him sitting in the background being afraid to vote. And I'm not going to just let him fade into the background just because the conversation is going in another direction.

Don't kid yourself morph. The game was still in RVS on page 4, that's why nobody has said anything worth talking about yet.

But if you noticed some things worth talking about I'm all ears.

Why did you feel the need to interrupt the Morph/Gamer conversation?

As for the VC, I think Nati just uses the same document to update each VC and has forgot to change it. In other news, Bert is town.

K. Same question as above regarding Bert. At what point were you so convinced of his alignment?

Shortly after he double voted the mod for lying a second time on the VC.

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

I think you're defense of KA against gameplay506 is really, really weird. Why are you doing it?

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

Also, why is Bert town?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful. Scum have a hard time faking that.

That's not true. I know that both KA and Ffery were in Dark Age of the Law where he was all sorts of playful, even after Ffery/GiF scared the crap out of him with their fake lie detector crumbs or whatever it was he thought. I'm concerned that you are "filling in the blanks", i.e. starting with a townread on someone who is easy to townread, and then just tacking on reasoning when prompted for it (rather than coming to the reasoning prior to the townread). Besides his attitude/tone, is there anything else that suggested his alignment to you?

That's about it. It looked and acted like a town Bert, so my read was town.

More protecting KA. Why?

Because the reasons he was being voted were based on playstyle, which made the wagon bad. And I'm going to call out a bad wagon.

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

Mirhawk is not interested in any answers. If he was, he wouldn't be twisting my words when asking the questions. He's trying to argue semantics rather than motivation, and that's incredibly scummy.

@Kingdom

I can tell that this isn't a game to joke around it. Damn. I wasn't hunting you whatsoever. My vote is on ZZZX all game thus far yes? The pokes and prods were simply to see what everyone else would do (and mostly me just having fun).

I was under the impression that you thought KA was town. What does this face indicate here..?

That was a reaction to Sns saying that he wasn't trying to scumhunt Kingdom, as if Kingdom is forcing him to play like town. It's a very scummy reaction, and it seems to be setting up a possible excuse for Sns after KA flips town.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

And you're taking a logical question and tried to change it to an emotional one to dismiss it.

My point is simple. If bert plays a cheerful game as town, then he likely also plays a cheerful game as scum.

Unless you're suggesting he changes his entire personality for every game he plays.

And you're relying on word play to mischaracterize my argument. It had nothing to do with demeanor. It had everything to do with experience and reactions.

Same thing here. I don't see how this makes Mirhawk scum at all. In fact, it shows me that he is very interested in pinning down your exact response, which you are continuing to evade.

He's not trying to figure me or Bert out. He's playing with words, which is scummy as crap. His posting is incredibly fake, and he is arguing just to argue. These are not town traits ETL.

Bulbazak has been downgraded from Maybe Town to Maybe Scum.
Mirhawk has been upgraded from Scum to Maybe Town.

Here's what I don't understand. Your read couldn't have changed that much from an ISO reading, as you had actually already read the ISO. So seeing as there was nothing that happened in the meantime, what prompted the change in reads?

[Lying Scum]

Kingdom is town, btw.

Why?

The only one that I think is decently town is Bert because of the claim stuff.

Because I've played with him as town. He plays exactly like this. In fact, I think this awkwardness is more likely to come from town than scum.

Only meta? How familiar are you with his meta? For instance, I play with Guyett more than anyone else on this site. Nearly every game I play is with Guyett, either I replaced into his game, he replaced into mine, we started the game together, or we hydra'd the game. I can spot his alignment fairly well, and I'd say 98% of the time I'm correct right away. Let's call that level of familiarity a 10, and my familiarity with say, gameplay506, who I've never seen before, a 1. What's yours with KA?

I've played with KA as town a couple of times, and he did the same thing. For familiarity, I'd give him a 5.

I'm concerned that your read on him is based only on meta, according to you, but you only rate your familiarity with him as a 5. This is incongruent with your exhibited level of confidence in the read as well as your defense of him several times.

Why did you vote Varsoon?

For this:

Getting scum out of fourteen people sounds difficult. D:

Plus it's Varsoon.

Why is that voteworthy? Can you expand on this a little please?

He's trying to avoid taking any type of stand. His post might as well be translated as "Why should I vote? We're not going to lynch scum anyway.", which is a scummy response.

Ok. I could see that I guess.

-I like it how Oversoul is making some sweet jumps from one wagon to another.

Why do you think that's town?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

-Bert's claim was interesting. Gonna keep an eye there.

Is there a reason that you think he might be a scum double voter instead of a town double voter?

This is the first time you make any notion of Bert's alignment, and it's a little strange to me, especially at the time this was posted. Why are you assuming so quickly that Bert is town?

Actually, that was more me being suspicious at Game for trying to throw suspicion on Bert as a possible scum double voter more than me thinking Bert was town.

Sure, but it indicates that you do consider Bert town at this point, plus, at the end of this same post, you proclaim that he IS town. So, why did you assume so quickly that Bert is town?

With the threat of double-voters and quick-hammers looming, can't we FoS people rather than voting?

Why are you afraid to scum hunt?

This is kind of a strange accusation. From your RVS vote, and your questioning of gameplay506, I'm curious why this happened. It almost seems like you chose someone to pick on and are continuing with it without evolving with the thread.

I'd expect Varsoon as town to be doing some sort of scumhunting, instead of him sitting in the background being afraid to vote. And I'm not going to just let him fade into the background just because the conversation is going in another direction.

Fair enough. I don't have enough meta with Varsoon to say otherwise.

Don't kid yourself morph. The game was still in RVS on page 4, that's why nobody has said anything worth talking about yet.

But if you noticed some things worth talking about I'm all ears.

Why did you feel the need to interrupt the Morph/Gamer conversation?

As for the VC, I think Nati just uses the same document to update each VC and has forgot to change it. In other news, Bert is town.

K. Same question as above regarding Bert. At what point were you so convinced of his alignment?

Shortly after he double voted the mod for lying a second time on the VC.

I don't understand how that is alignment-indicative, nor how it is strong enough to have this kind of confidence. It's been cleared up that Nat messed up the VCs. You think voting the mod is town? Or was it something after that and you're just using it as a time marker? If so, what?

-Kingdom seems a little bit too worried about the wagon on him.

I don't think so. Why do you?

Look at his posts. There are some during the wagon forming on him in which he says how he usually gets mislynched and stuff like that.

He says that regardless. It's not him being worried about his wagon. It's him stating facts.

I think your defense of KA against gameplay506 is really, really weird. Why are you doing it?

Because Game's attack is really bad and is essentially going after low hanging fruit.

That doesn't answer why you defended KA instead of attacking gameplay.

Also, why is Bert town?

Because of his reactions. His posting so far has been carefree and playful. Scum have a hard time faking that.

That's not true. I know that both KA and Ffery were in Dark Age of the Law where he was all sorts of playful, even after Ffery/GiF scared the crap out of him with their fake lie detector crumbs or whatever it was he thought. I'm concerned that you are "filling in the blanks", i.e. starting with a townread on someone who is easy to townread, and then just tacking on reasoning when prompted for it (rather than coming to the reasoning prior to the townread). Besides his attitude/tone, is there anything else that suggested his alignment to you?

That's about it. It looked and acted like a town Bert, so my read was town.

More protecting KA. Why?

Because the reasons he was being voted were based on playstyle, which made the wagon bad. And I'm going to call out a bad wagon.

Yeah... but you didn't. You just defended KA. Those are two different actions and two different choices one can make. You didn't choose to attack people who were "going after low hanging fruit"; you chose to defend KA.

Because I've played with Bert multiple times, and this is his town game.

So he isn't cheerful when he's scum?

Seems to me that's a pretty big tell, one would think he would do something about it.

That's not what I said at all. My point was that scum have a hard time faking being carefree in the manner that Bert has shown, and having had some experience playing with Bert, it's easier for me to see that this is genuine and his town game.

Unvote

Vote Mirhawk

I'm not getting the sense that you are trying to figure out the game so much as you are trying to put words into other's mouths and lynch that way.

Wait a second. Mirhawk is asking the same questions I am. And not only that, but he followed up on your answer when it didn't answer his question. I don't see how that deserves a vote. Not to mention that he makes a really good point. You say that "scum" have a hard time faking it. Mirhawk asks, "But does

Bert

have a hard time faking it?" and you respond with a vote instead of clarifying your answer.

This is really, really bad.

Mirhawk is not interested in any answers. If he was, he wouldn't be twisting my words when asking the questions. He's trying to argue semantics rather than motivation, and that's incredibly scummy.

Eh... no. He isn't twisting your words, and you're still not answering the question, which I am also interested in. He's asking you a clarifying question, continually, and you accuse him of twisting your words.

You: Bert is town because he's being silly and scum have a hard time faking that.

Mirhawk: Oh ok. Would

SCUM BERT

(<<< note the distinction, the clarifying point here) have a hard time faking that?

You: VOTE: MIRHAWK Y U TWISTING MY WORDS.

This is what it looks like to me. Do you understand the question now and can you answer it?

@Kingdom

I can tell that this isn't a game to joke around it. Damn. I wasn't hunting you whatsoever. My vote is on ZZZX all game thus far yes? The pokes and prods were simply to see what everyone else would do (and mostly me just having fun).

I was under the impression that you thought KA was town. What does this face indicate here..?

That was a reaction to Sns saying that he wasn't trying to scumhunt Kingdom, as if Kingdom is forcing him to play like town. It's a very scummy reaction, and it seems to be setting up a possible excuse for Sns after KA flips town.

I somehow messed up the quotes, and thought you were responding to KA with the face. This is irrelevant to the line of questioning currently.

And my point was that there are certain things that are hard for scum to fake, and what Bert did was one of them. Having also played with Bert before, it was easier to see his reaction was genuine and not scum trying to look town. Your response was "And Bert wouldn't be cheerful when scum?", which is a small but noticeable change from what I actually said. You took a meta read and tried to change it into an emotional read in an attempt to undermine it.

And you're taking a logical question and tried to change it to an emotional one to dismiss it.

My point is simple. If bert plays a cheerful game as town, then he likely also plays a cheerful game as scum.

Unless you're suggesting he changes his entire personality for every game he plays.

And you're relying on word play to mischaracterize my argument. It had nothing to do with demeanor. It had everything to do with experience and reactions.

Same thing here. I don't see how this makes Mirhawk scum at all. In fact, it shows me that he is very interested in pinning down your exact response, which you are continuing to evade.

He's not trying to figure me or Bert out. He's playing with words, which is scummy as crap. His posting is incredibly fake, and he is arguing just to argue. These are not town traits ETL.

At this point, his questioning has nothing to do with Bert at all, and everything to do with you. His posting is not fake, his question is real, and you still haven't answered it.

So, Bulbazak, either you are genuinely misunderstanding what is being asked of you, or you are purposely ignoring it to dodge the question.

Bulbazak has been downgraded from Maybe Town to Maybe Scum.
Mirhawk has been upgraded from Scum to Maybe Town.

Here's what I don't understand. Your read couldn't have changed that much from an ISO reading, as you had actually already read the ISO. So seeing as there was nothing that happened in the meantime, what prompted the change in reads?

There's a difference between reading and analyzing. When I finally had time to devote to this game, there were already like 7 pages, with several walls. I cheat. I don't read the thread all the way through from page 1. I get bored. Instead, I read through the ISOs and go through the thread at certain points where I need context or clarification. I get the gist of the positions and arguments, and then I go to those points in the thread to make sure I understand it. Then I formulate my opinions and throw up my initial reads. It's kind of like writing a draft. The first thing you do is just write everything no matter how foolish it sounds, and then you proofread and edit it. Same thing with my reads. I throw my gut on the page and then refine it.

I have since re-read the thread from page 1, and I'm going through ISOs with a fine-toothed comb to figure out if my gut reads make logical sense or not. Not to mention, there are things I've noticed since my initial read that I want to corroborate.

I started my refining process with my absolute nulls, and gameplay was the first. After reading his ISO, several of your responses that he replied to stuck out to me, so I ISO'd you next to check on them.

My read on you has changed because I think your defense of KA is unwarranted, your Bert read is, essentially, baseless, and I don't like your reaction to Mirhawk's questioning of you.

You also neglected to answer several of my questions:

1) Why did you assume so quickly that Bert was town?
2) Why did you defend KA (instead of attacking those voting him)?
3) Do you think that BERT would have trouble faking his "cheeriness" as scum (and not just scum in general having trouble faking it)?

ETL

[morph the cat]

I'm pretty sure that rule about unvoting has changed once or twice. :/

To get back to this, when I first read the rules, they said unvote

was required

. I checked a couple days ago when bert's votes were being weird and the rules said unvote

was not required

. I assumed I misread initially until ETL said something about the rules saying they are required.

As of the time of this post, the rules now say unvotes are not required again.

[Lying Scum]

Yeah. So, my understanding is that Nat gave up on enforcing it, and just changed the rule.

The VCs being weird are somewhat unrelated, and they are just wrong, but the latest one is correct. I... kind of plan to keep an eye on it because I rely heavily on VCA later on.

ETL

[Oversoul]

Why is no one bandwagoning?

VOTE: overly things

Don't let mollie corrupt your brain.

[Mirhawk]

If you look again, I did not say I "can't be scum since my scumgame isn't this good." I said expecting me to be flawless as scum is unreasonable.

Is it not also unreasonable then to assume that your scum game is flawed?

This is the quote you are referring to. ^ Your posts seem to be for the purpose of "appearing town" with your questions, but without enforcing why you asked your questions in the first place. That doesn't stand you in good stead with the rest of town. Your posts have been reactions or unloaded questions, which so far doesn't seem useful in the long run.

What makes me nervous is why you think I'm worthy of a vote for discussing my meta. I did not bring it up.

Do my questions need to come with instructions as well? You are aware that you could ask me about my motivations at any point right? Surely this would be more useful then implying scum motivations on my actions without voting for me right?

Or I suppose you could just vote for Oversoul, for whom you've expressed no indication of suspicion before now.

[Bert]

Overly things indirectly implied he wanted some excitement aka bandwagoning, it's like a kid wanting his parents to instill some moral values. I obliged!!!

[MafiaSSK]

Also, hi ETL. I'm here. Having an existential crisis of playstyle. Don't know how to post. Be back later, promise.