Micro 352 - Chosen Mafia Game Over

[Lia]

And three is better than two!

Vote: Xayzeck

[Lia]

So Porkens and possibly Scarab start off in the town pile.

Let's try this:

Vote: Oka

[Lia]

Wth happened.

He knew what happened as he posted right after the hammer so this is fake. His posts on this page don't have the ring of sincerity either.

He needs more votes.

[Lia]

What FOS posts?

[Lia]

lia is slightly worse than idk based on a higher volume of fluff posting

The only one of my posts that could be called fluff was my initial rvs vote. The others were not. What makes you think they were?

OkaPoka is probably town based on his reaction to my gambit

I thought he made much too much of it.

Oh and Lia.

Look at post 40 and 41 FOS.

And 37 saying possibly town. ???? Explain your thought process.

42 was your first post of the Day and that first sentence looked to me as if you were commenting on the lynch because nothing else had actually happened up to then apart from the nk, which didn't seem to rate such a comment, and people talking about their suspicions, which also didn't seem to rate such a comment. What sets 40 and 41 apart from the other posts there? As for 37, I think those two are most likely to be town due to how Day 1 turned out. I was also considering idk and Nic as possible votees but I went with a hunch and now I'm reasonably confident to leave my vote where it is.

[Lia]

@ Porkens:

I think you missed my question in 75.

Mid-post edit: actually I like his posting so far aside from that. Seems town.

What about Oka's posting seems town to you?

Hm. Interesting.

VOTE: Scarab

So what did you find interesting? And why is Scarab scum?

[Lia]

Hm. Interesting.

VOTE: Scarab

Pork. He gets it because hes used to RVS quickhammers

Who's used to RVS quickhammers? Idk or Scarab? And why would that make Scarab scum? Are you saying that he would deliberately get his partner lynched before the game had barely begun? I know bussing is a thing but that doesn't make sense.


And Porkens isn't making sense either.

[Lia]

Scarab also kinda beat himself up over the fact that him put his scumbuddy at L-1, allowing him to be lynched, as seen here:

All I'm going to say is that you'd better be scum if you were willing to hammer that. Keeping someone at L-1 this early is safe specifically because there's no way a townie would ever hammer it.

Yeah, this does look a bit like Scarab was apologising to his buddy for the risky vote. I found a previous game where he'd acknowledged the risk of a premature hammer, but that wasn't at quite such an early stage.

He/she then also addresses the Night Kill:

BBT kill is kinda sorta interesting. Presumably he was lynched for being the first to vote Xayzeck day 1. I guess they just left Porkens alive for WIFOM purposes.

I see no reason to do that, especially with such an obvious reason for the NK.

It was the nk spec that did concern me a bit because it was unnecessary and just draws the sort of attention to him that he was probably hoping to avoid.

Having looked around a bit I'm now ok with this lynch and as it's been more than a day since he was put at L-1 I see no reason not to go ahead.

Vote: Scarab

[Lia]

IDK and LIA, what possible difference could my motivation make? Help me understand or help me lynch this thing.

It could give us a clue to your alignment. I see you've finally replied to that now.

I have to side with NicCage here, why in the world did Lia hammer with no warning???

I'll accept Porkens quickhammer because he hit scum.

But please no more madness hammers.

First, my hammer was not a quickhammer. He'd been at L-1 for over a day. Second, it wasn't entirely without warning as idk had called for a hammer. It was Scarab's responses to idk's post that convinced me there was no point in waiting any longer. As to why I hammered, it was partly due to the reasons I gave in 104 and partly because I felt like it was going to be impossible to get a wagon on anyone else while votes were stuck on Scarab.

I hammered xyl or whatever his name was partly because his response to being at L-1 felt scummy, especially the random.org comment. He was distancing himself for a stance as hard as possible.

So why didn't you wait to give us a chance to see who his partner was? Didn't you want to risk it?

That being said, I would probably have hammered anyone given the chance to hammer in my first post on page 1 in single-digit post numbers.

And turning it from a game of mafia into a game of Pin the Tail on the Donkey.

Lia asks me to explain why her fluff posting was fluff, that's not endearing to me. I'd lynch her today.

Nope. I didn't ask you why my posting was fluff; I asked you why you claimed it was, which is a different thing entirely. And despite reminding you, you still haven't answered.


Scum is either Oka due to his Day 2 play, or Porkens, whose play is anti-town at best, and at worst is scum who's behaving like he thinks he can get away with anything.

[Lia]

Lia, what is it that bothers you about Oka's day 2 play?

Starting with his 42: I took the first line as referring to the lynch and commented on it in my 60. He claimed that his 42 was referring to "all these FOS posts made by everyone", but it looked like an odd reaction if it was that. I asked him which posts he meant. He ignored that in his next post, despite finding time to post a youtube link, and only later did he reply giving a couple of posts which I don't think really warranted his comment, and questioning my description of Scarab as "possibly town". I asked him in 75 what set 40 and 41 apart from the other posts there and again he's ignored the question which leads me to think that he was just using them as an excuse.

I also thought his posts about Porkens' scum QT gambit were odd. The fact that he made all that fuss without even going to the first page and mousing over the link to see if it really was a QT points to him having already seen the scum role pm and assuming the copy contained the same link.

Don't you think it's unlikely that scum would hammer their own partner?

Not really if it's to their advantage. Unlikely in the way it was done here, yes, but wouldn't that be a good reason for doing it? If he thought Xay was being too obviously scummy, he could well have thought it better to just cut his losses and get rid of a liability.

Or Porkens is a crazy person.

Or he's just acting crazy. He's shown in the past that he does know the value of avoiding a quick lynch.

[Lia]

@ Nic:

I don't get this. Why are you calling me "new" scum? It's clear from that phrase that you haven't looked up my previous games and are just assuming that I've never been scum. So is this just an attempt to buddy, but without checking your facts first? Or what is it?

@ Porkens:

Stop trying to dodge the fact that you can't back up your claim that my posts were fluff. You made a false accusation and I called you on it.

[Lia]

I'm calling you new because I can read your join date and it used to say goon under your name, I was just assuming.
Why would you assume I'm buddying you though lol, I actually think you're scum, it's just that the way you're playing seems unusual to me. Personally I wouldn't have rushed to a hammer yesterday like you did, as town or scum.

So Lia, who's the scum? Is it me? Porkens? Oka? We can't all be scum you know

I don't know who's scum. That's what I'm trying to work out. I think idk is least likely but apart from that it could be any of you.

I thought you might be buddying because you seemed to be defending me without having checked whether the behaviour was usual for me or not.

I wouldn't normally have hammered so early in the Day either. I've already explained why I did this time but I guess my frustration at the way this game is going also fed into it.

ME? Lia didn't ask me any questions.

In 75 I asked you what set 40 and 41 apart from the other posts there.

In referencing to Lia, I'm sorry about forgetting your posts I was just super pissy at porkens for his wild gambit. I answered you. Shouldn't that suffice?

I've answered that 40 and 41 are FOS posts. Just LOOK AT THEM.
I thought you reread my posts...

That was your answer to my earlier posts, and no, it didn't suffice. That's why I asked you to explain more in 75 and I'm still waiting for your reply.

I'd be happy to lynch IDK. Let's do something though, this game is getting super boring.

Well, you could always try giving me that answer I'm after.

[Lia]

The only reason I didn't vote him at the beginning of the Day was my concern that the last scum was actually you and I didn't want to give you another wagon to jump on. I still have reservations about Nic but I think he's a lot less likely to be scum than you or Oka.

Stating the obvious, voting outside the town pool on whomever.

Yeah, well I don't vote for my town reads so... The vote was based on a very weak scum tell; better than nothing but not by much.

So you are saying "wth happened" is fake because, what, you think he was trying to represent that he was actually asking "what happened?" I think we can give him credit enough that he knew what mechanically happened. His question was figurative and you are either playing dumb or hoping we are actually dumb.

I saw it as a rhetorical question expressing surprise which looked fake because he had been around after the hammer. I already explained this in 75 where I said it looked to me as if he was

commenting on

- not asking about - the lynch, so your trying to portray my comment as being something other than that makes me think that you either haven't read my posts, or that you're hoping to spread a bit more disinformation like you tried with the fluff accusation.

[Lia]

Hi RedCoyote!

The posts before 40 and 41 actually had actions and accusations to go along with each other. Then Salamence wants a mini wagon on Scarab, and Scarab randomly points that NicCage is scum. I was confused at the plays town was making and why no action went along with it.

So Scarab was saying that Nic might be scum, while agreeing with him that Porkens should explain his action, and Salamence was explaining his earlier unsupported vote. I really don't see what's so confusing about these, or how they differ from the earlier posts.

3) Oka checked in after Xay was put at L-1 and didn't unvote him. Lia did not check in at all, meaning she didn't have a chance to stop this wagon (whereas Oka did).

This is one of the things that makes me hesitate about Oka, but it was possible that he didn't expect anyone to hammer and didn't want to be the first to unvote.

4) Lia's 37 is completely missing any solid analysis. No idea why she votes Oka.

There was very little to go on at the time. As I said in 144: "The vote was based on a very weak scum tell; better than nothing but not by much." I thought his RVS vote could be distancing.

5) Lia's 60 criticizes Oka for what she now acknowledges was a rhetorical question. If it was a rhetorical question, then this post makes absolutely no sense.

Why not? I thought it was a fake rhetorical question, said for effect, and his attempts to persuade me it wasn't haven't convinced me.

6) Lia's 85 asks Scarab about Oka, but she ignores his response in 93 and never addresses him again despite hammering him shortly thereafter.

Scarab's reply didn't add anything either way to my read of Oka, which had been my reason for asking, but seemed a bit evasive, which is why I started to take a closer look at him.

7) Lia hammered Scarab despite having an earlier townread on him and not explaining why this changed.

The explanation was in post 104, where I voted him. Unfortunately I can't expand on that yet but it was enough to turn my town read into a scum read.

8) Lia quickhammered and didn't give enough time for players to debate the Scarab wagon at all.
9) Scarab was not allowed a chance to defend himself, nor did Lia threaten to hammer him if he didn't oblige her requests as is pretty standard for town to do.

I've already explained why I hammered when I did. Scarab has the chance to make a defence when he posted 99, 100 and 103 but didn't.

13) Lia claims to not vote town reads in 144 despite the fact that she hammered one.

Nope. I did not have a town read on Scarab when I hammered.

Do you think Scarab's opinion of idk's case was correct?
What do you think of Porkens' vote on Scarab?
What do you think of Porkens' failure to back up his claims?

[Lia]

My failure to back up what claims?

Mainly the one I've been repeatedly asking you to back up. I'll take the fact that you had no reply to the last para of my 144 as an answer in itself to that, but I still want an explanation of your comment in 71, plus your reasons for not explaining it earlier when asked to do so.

It's funny you bring up your post 144, because that's the post where you clarify to Porkens that Scarab was a townread of yours (hence you hammering him shortly thereafter is contradictory and scummy).

How is it contradictory and scummy to change my mind about a player after taking a closer look at him?

You can characterize it as weak or very weak, that's besides the point. The point is you vote someone and explain why it is you are making that move, even if you aren't extremely confident in it yet. No one reasonable expects you to be super confident on page two. I pointed to Sal's 41 as a good contrasting post. That's post was made at around the same time, but it's clear Sal is approaching the game from a town mindset, in contrast to your post.

You've been around long enough to know that sometimes a vote with little or no explanation can be a good scumhunting tool. Oka was my best guess at the time and so I went with that.

Because you reference that Oka knew that the hammer had taken place. Ergo, you are assuming that Oka is referring to the hammer. You are implying that Oka was saying "Wth happened [to cause us to be in D2 now]?", and then making the allegation that Oka is scummy because he should know that there was a hammer given the fact that he checked in after it happened. In other words, that he's genuinely trying to ask players what had happened. If you now say that you realized it was a rhetorical question, then that doesn't sync with what you said in 60, "He knew what happened as he posted right after the hammer". If it was a rhetorical question, then the hammer has no place in your argument whatsoever, because he's not asking about the hammer, he's making a statement.

No; I never thought he was genuinely trying to ask players what had happened. As I said in 60, I thought it was fake. An exclamation/rhetorical question to disassociate himself from what had happened. I've already explained this in 144.

If you actually thought this at the time, you would've said something, much like you said something when Oka's posts seemed off to you.

I didn't say anything because I was still getting my thoughts together about Scarab and doing a bit of reading.

I'm bias. I know both slots are town. I didn't bother reading idk's case and have no intention to as it's redundant at this point. After all, it was supposedly good enough to convince you.
I think Porkens is confirmed town due to the Xay wagon. Additionally, the only logical reason Porkens has been left alive is due to the fact he's a Chosen Townie and cannot be NKed. It stands to reason that only players that are suspecting him would be scummy. His Scarab vote was decent enough. I had Scarab leaning scum until his flip myself. I had a bit more evidence of this in my wall post, but I trimmed it out upon learning he was dead.
I don't understand what you mean by claims.

Idk's case wasn't the only thing that made me change my mind about Scarab, but I've said all I'm going to on that matter.
How was Porkens' vote decent enough, in view of what he said about it?
Re: Porkens claims about me, see the first para of this post.

@ Nic:

I didn't change my mind between those posts; just my paranoia after being misled by a seemingly unnecessary Day 1 bus in my last game. In 121 I was trying to get a reaction out of Porkens.


I've got a slight town read from Porkens' 164.

RedCoyote has twice expressed concerned about Porkens being Chosen. This isn't something that town needs to worry about as it makes no difference to us, but it would effect scum as they need to get at least one of them lynched. I'm wondering if RC thinks Porkens is unlynchable and that is why he is trying to push my lynch using Porkens as a lever.

[Lia]

I've already pointed out that that wasn't a contradiction but I can see why you're happy to jump on it. In case you didn't notice, the first of those three quotes didn't relate to either Porkens or his hammer.

I note that you didn't mention that your vote put me at L-1.

One of the reasons I haven't voted yet toDay was that my gut wasn't agreeing with my head. Now it is. At first I thought you might have just misread some of my posts so I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now it's looking more like manipulation, both through the way you have presented your arguements against me and through the patronising tone of some of your posts.

Vote: RedCoyote

@ Porkens:

You seem to have a very strange definition of fluff if it includes giving reads, voting, pointing out concerns and asking for clarification, which is what I was doing in those posts. As for the other point I raised, that was due to your accusation that I was either playing dumb or hoping you were actually dumb which made me think you were trying to make me look bad, but that could have been due to your not understanding what I meant by the word "comment".

[Lia]

@ Porkens:

It wouldn't have been a big deal if you had replied when I first asked. The problem wasn't so much the original question as it was the fact that you wouldn't, or couldn't, explain youself, which threw doubt on your reason for making the accusation in the first place.

On the other hand; I'm never lynching Red, so if you want to try a counter wagon, you will have to vote for Nick.

What's your case on Nic? As far as I can see you don't like his questions and you called his reaction in 108 fake. What's the difference between his reaction there and Oka's reaction in 42? Nic had more reason for it than Oka did. Yes, Nic's questions could be scum nudging but they look more genuine to me.

I think RC has more chance of being scum than Nic does, and from what he has said and done I suspect Porkens and myself are the Chosen.

@ Oka:

What "Red Coyote act" are you talking about? His case on me, or my response to him?

[Lia]

Thanks for running this, Melmond!

It was my first scum game, but I guess trying to hide behind other players to let them fight it out doesn't work out in the long run.

Dang.

Any ways on how to improve my scum game?

I think you've already made a good start on that by realising where you went wrong this time.
Also, try to think of yourself as part of the town. There were a couple of places, in 146 and 192, where you seemed to be thinking of yourself as separate from the town.