NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[VitaminR]

Eh, I quite like Sotty's response to me there. It's pretty level-headed.

Unvote

[Bookitty]

@VitaminR

: Can you link me to the detailed response to my points to which I failed to respond?

[Green Crayons]

@Vitamin:

I didn't see that post. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

You said:

My switches from LML to pj and back were motivated mostly by indecisiveness and self-doubt, triggered by gut feelings that LML's frustration, and later pj's, were sincere.

If you thought PJ's frustration at the end of D1 was sincere enough for you to switch back to LML, whereby sincere = town play, why did you vote for PJ in your first post of D2 (Post 873)?

I know that you state reasons for your PJ vote in Post 873. I am saying that your problems with PJ's play that you point out in Post 873 do not seem to be congruent with the claim that you thought, at that point in the game, PJ was being sincere and therefore had town cred.

Please address however you would like.

-----

Also, I did not realize that you are CES are related. (Unless if I am misunderstanding your "little brother" comment?) You appear to admit that you may have some bias -- "I might be a little protective of him" in Post 1959 -- but stop short of recognizing that such bias might be affecting your read of CES.

(1) Is that not a possibility, or is your town read so certain that any potential bias is a non-issue? But if your potential bias is a non-issue, why even bring it up to qualify your read on CES?

(2) Have y'all played together where he was scum, or do you just know of his scum play from observations?

(3) How do you feel about the fact that CES

hasn't

really vouched for your townness in the same way that you have for him? Shouldn't he be just as familiar with your town/scum play as you are with his?

[VitaminR]

BooKitty, Post 1857.

[VitaminR]

I know that you state reasons for your PJ vote in Post 873. I am saying that your problems with PJ's play that you point out in Post 873 do not seem to be congruent with the claim that you thought, at that point in the game, PJ was being sincere and therefore had town cred.

Please address however you would like.

I felt that pj and LML had a bunch of strange interactions Day 1 (pj's late switch to LML, their mutual tunnelling). After the flip, I really thought those made the most sense if pj was also scum. After LML's flip, I also became increasingly unsure to what extent my reads of sincere frustration were that useful (they had lead me to think LML was town also on at least one occasion).

Also, I did not realize that you are CES are related. (Unless if I am misunderstanding your "little brother" comment?) You appear to admit that you may have some bias -- "I might be a little protective of him" in Post 1959 -- but stop short of recognizing that such bias might be affecting your read of CES.

We are related, yes, and it very well might affect my read. I have a tendency to read him as town (I'm aware of this, though I maintain that I haven't seen him do anything really scummy).

(2) Have y'all played together where he was scum, or do you just know of his scum play from observations?

(3) How do you feel about the fact that CES

hasn't

really vouched for your townness in the same way that you have for him? Shouldn't he be just as familiar with your town/scum play as you are with his?

I've played with him enough, yes. And we're pretty different people with very different playstyles. CES would almost never vouch for me, regardless of alignment.

This is the usual pattern for our play. I think I have a read on him quite early (rightly or wrongly so) and he shies away from giving any sort of definite read.

[VitaminR]

You know, I've been getting accused of 'buddying' chamber/CES since Day 1. What would you do if you thought you knew two players well and had strong reasons to think each of them town? Defending them is the

pro-town

thing to do.

If anyone thinks I'm getting something out of this, they're wrong. Neither chamber or CES is ever going to think any better of me for defending them. Both of them will tell you that they almost never definitively read me as town. They're both way too wary of my scumplay.

[Save The Dragons]

Zzzzz

I have yet to understand a single one of your posts. If you want to lynch me blindly over one "tell" in 2000 posts then w/e but if you are expecting a response from me you're going to have to explain yourself. The fact that you're so deadset on this one thing and just say "look, he totes did it again!" makes me wary.

---

(3) How do you feel about the fact that CES

hasn't

really vouched for your townness in the same way that you have for him? Shouldn't he be just as familiar with your town/scum play as you are with his?

Do you have siblings?

---

The play of the masons there is just objectively bad though?

(shrug) They're trying to pressure you to act in a more pro-town way, as PJ defines the term; agree or disagree with the details, that's generally a reasonable thing to do, and it's pretty much exactally what I would expect from a coldly logical player like PJ who's used to demanding answers and getting them when someone just flatly refuses to answer questions for no good reason.

No, not (shrug). They're removing two votes from this sputtering town in an attempt at some policy lynch that's not going to happen. I would be ecstatic if chamber made better posts, but I don't really think there's much I can personally do. I don't think his hiding information is necessarily being anti-town (it doesn't mean it's not, but it doesn't seem to be the reason PJ is voting for him). What you expect from PJ hardly makes the play any less good or bad.

This is very badposting. Bitching about the play of the masons so as to look like you're doing something without actually doing anything useful yourself?

Eh, around the same time he makes a case on Sotty, he agrees with chamber that chamber is also being a bit petty, and he defends himself against PJ. I mean, it's not like he was being super useful, but it's also not like he popped in the thread from absence and posted this one thing.

It feels like a reasonable post to me, and like I think I made clear, I'd rather lynch CES then mathcam today.

My concern is that you accuse mathcam of not scumhunting today after that post, in 1914, so what do you think of his decision to vote the person you were voting at the time?

---

Not seeing VitR still.

I'm going back and forth on mathcam, not sure how I feel about him.

I've been staring at MBL's hand for five minutes and I'm missing what the lists are supposed to be.

No point in keeping my vote tidally locked on DGB if no one else is interested.

ISOing CES I get nothing. No indication of town play, no indication of scum play, nothing. I don't know if I'm just starting to get burnt out or what. I don't like the undo wagon from yesterday, and I agree with some of the points brought up today (buddying chamber comes to mind).

Unvote, Vote: CES

[Green Crayons]

@Vitamin:

I don't think your scum, or that you are buddying chamber/CES, but (1) skimming your posts, I can see where ABR/Yos is coming from in suspecting you -- it's a certain "feel" to your posts, for lack of a better/more thorough description, and (2) since I'm using you as a proxy for my CES read, I just wanted to vet your CES position.

----

UNVOTE: mathcam
VOTE: Save The Dragons

Albert, ISO STD and then get in on this.

[Green Crayons]

@STD:

Nope, only child.

[Green Crayons]

@Vitamin:

I don't think

your

you're

scum, or that you are buddying chamber/CES, but (1) skimming your posts, I can see where ABR/Yos is coming from in suspecting you -- it's a certain "feel" to your posts, for lack of a better/more thorough description, and (2) since I'm using you as a proxy for my CES read, I just wanted to vet your CES position.

Oh god the worst typo.

[Save The Dragons]

@STD:

Nope, only child.

Your point 3 was wrong. If you had a sibling, you probably would have realized it, and were intentionally pushing some craplogic.

[Green Crayons]

That's why it was a question?

[Green Crayons]

Also, don't push a fallacy that all sibling relationships are the same. I was inquiring specifically about the dynamic between Vitamin/CES.

[Save The Dragons]

Nope, I'm not having this argument. It's a town tell for me on you so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Yosarian2]

I think you're being a bit unfair here. This is kind of a fabricated point. I posted one line about how I didn't like the chamber votes and the rest was just a response to pj's suspicions of me. Am I not allowed to defend myself now?

You bashed both PJ and Undo for putting pressure on chamber. Attacking masons, and trying to undermine what they are doing, is just obviously anti-town.

And you're exaggerating the chamber stuff. You think it's strange that I took chamber's side against pj? Pj pulled the same 'answer this question, now answer this question'-move on me Day 1 and I refused to play along, because it's just time-wasting. In addition, I'm like almost 100% sure that chamber is town, it's my strongest read in the game. That's basically been true since page 2. So yes, I was also defending him a little bit.

Answering questions asked of you by a confirmed town PJ is "a waste of time"?

If you want to defend chamber, then the way to do that would be to explain to PJ why you think chamber is town. You weren't doing that, you were just attacking the masons. And not even like you didn't believe them or anything; you clearly understand they're town, you just wanted to be seen to be "on chamber's side". It's just not a town move.

And show me all the ways in which I've buddied chamber that are 'total BS' to you.

Let's start with the one that really jumped out at me. Page 63 of the game, Chamber asked me questions about my CES analysis, and you then basically echoed chamber, asking me the exact same questions again.

And then there was this post, where CES's scum list was basically Seol+the 3 most townie-looking people in the game at the time, which was just bizzare:

You've misinterpreted both of those posts from CES if you think he was talking about scum reads in either.

Yos, I don't get what's relevant about the fact that his town reads were worded confusingly. Do you think being confusing is scummy?

@chamber and VitaminR

What the hell are you two talking about???

Yosarian made an award-winning post, completely logical and I agree with everything he says. I'm very upset at chamber and VitaminR's ambuiguous replies.

What was ambiguous about my reply? I feel like Yos is trying too hard to make a case against CES out of very little, which worries me, because it could indicate an ulterior motive on Yos's part. I don't understand why he pulled out CES's town read comments, as if stating something confusingly is scummy.

It looks to me like you were both trying to buddy chamber, and to use chamber to both attack me and to defend CES.

There's are other places too where I get the idea you were trying to buddy chamber:

chamber, what do you think of pj and Glork?
.

Detracting from the undo wagon would likely just end in DGB getting lynched, but he's a serious consideration for a later date now, I want to review his older play.

Yesssss.

chamber, I agree that CTD and Shanba are kind of odd choices. It was one of the weaker reasons why I thought there could very well be scum in pj/Glork.

I know, chamber, but answering petty with petty just doesn't seem productive.

Overall, it looks to me like you were trying to buddy chamber, and trying to use chamber to push various bad wagons, especially the PJ and Glork wagons, for most of the game, as well as trying to use him to bolster your attempts to defend CES.

[Porochaz]

I finished my last large in 68 pages.

chamber, Sotty, Porochaz, I have no idea what their stances are off the top of my head.

You should read my posts.

[Porochaz]

You know, I've been getting accused of 'buddying' chamber/CES since Day 1. What would you do if you thought you knew two players well and had strong reasons to think each of them town? Defending them is the

pro-town

thing to do.

If anyone thinks I'm getting something out of this, they're wrong. Neither chamber or CES is ever going to think any better of me for defending them. Both of them will tell you that they almost never definitively read me as town. They're both way too wary of my scumplay.

I'd like to think I know CES at least somewhat. I'm not sure he has done anything remotely townie.

[VitaminR]

I have outlined why I think CES is town, Porochaz. You can go read up on my reasons. I shouldn't have to fish this out for you.

[Porochaz]

To be honest I know your opinion on CES but at some point he is going to actually have to start speaking for himself.

[VitaminR]

Yos, I freely admit I've defended chamber and CES (I've done this fairly openly from the start). But do you seriously think I'm 'using them to push wagons'? I asked chamber for his opinion on pj and Glork ONCE.

Look, I know both chamber and CES well. They are the players I like the most in this game and feel the most comfortable playing with. I often agree with them and understand the way they think. Do you think that perhaps this by itself explains my interactions with them a lot better than your theory? I've never once made any attempt to get chamber or CES to vote my way or tried to badger them into anything. Maybe I've been too quick to pick their side, but there are no attempts at manipulation or intimidation or whatever.

I think you're being a bit unfair here. This is kind of a fabricated point. I posted one line about how I didn't like the chamber votes and the rest was just a response to pj's suspicions of me. Am I not allowed to defend myself now?

You bashed both PJ and Undo for putting pressure on chamber. Attacking masons, and trying to undermine what they are doing, is just obviously anti-town.

Why? I can no longer disagree with them because they're masons? Maybe you can say I was too harsh, that's sort of fair. But they're not immune from criticism just because they are masons.

Answering questions asked of you by a confirmed town PJ is "a waste of time"?

I haven't found pj's questions helpful at all this game (and I'm not the only one to criticize him for this). I was subjected to them Day 1 and it felt like being badgered by someone under the pretense of logical questioning without any real appreciation for their point of view.

I wanted to stop that from happening with chamber, because I didn't see chamber responding to that any better than me and I felt like it would create a big distraction that wasn't going help the town. I didn't want to see either pj or chamber waste any time going after each other, because I'm sure they're both town.

If you want to defend chamber, then the way to do that would be to explain to PJ why you think chamber is town.

This is fair enough, but I'm not sure it's easy for me to put into words why I'm so convinced chamber is town. Part of it was his intensity out of the gate Day 1, part of it is his attitude. He is much more cautious and logical as scum. His play here is essentially carefree and he's only that way as town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If he continues to not answer simple questions, I would like to suggest his slot is a good candidate for being Vigged.

You can be petty all you want, but don't go around calling for obvtown players vigged as a claimed mason, really.

Honestly CES just looks to be playing like caught scum at this point; he's carefully avoiding commenting on anyone other then Mathcam, perhaps to avoid giving us anything to go on when he does get lynched, and when I attacked him earlier today his response just sounded like he was complaining that I caught him for the wrong reasons.

I think this happens almost exactly never and it seems completely ridiculous to suggest this is happening when the person in question has like 2 votes on him. I'm focussing on what seems relevant to me because currently most of my time and mental energies are devoted to finishing my Master's thesis (which I'm submitting by next Wednesday).

It doesn't feel like he's angry I think he's scum, or that he's surprised he's under suspicion, just that he thinks he's being caught for the wrong reason.

Yeah, I'm not angry or surprised that you think I'm scum, because that's been the case for a while now. The argument I was calling out was confirmation bias at best and lazy scum play at worst; either way "caught for the wrong reason" literally can't describe it.

Still want a response to #1957, mathcam.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I freely admit I've defended chamber and CES (I've done this fairly openly from the start).

I'm not accusing you of defending chamber (that is, trying to stop him from being lynched). You don't seem to be doing that, really. What I'm accusing you of is trying to be buddy-buddy with chamber as a way to manipulate him.

You are defending CES, which I'm not a fan of, but I'll admit that's not really a strong argument against you until we know CES's alignment. Your relations with Chamber look different then that; making a point with saying you agreed with him even if cases where it didn't seem to fit what you had previously said (for example, in the one quote above, his opinion of Undo looks different then the one you previously had, but you just quote him and say "yessss").

It's also a little weird when you say things like "Gee, I was wrong about both PJ and Glork, maybe I should re-evaluate all my town reads" and then instantly go right back to buddying chamber and defending CES without showing any sign of re-evaluting your reads on them.

Look, I know both chamber and CES well. They are the players I like the most in this game and feel the most comfortable playing with. I often agree with them and understand the way they think. Do you think that perhaps this by itself explains my interactions with them a lot better than your theory?

Well, I'm not surprised to see you defending CES like you are. I just don't get what your interactions with chamber are supposed to accomplish if you're town, though.

Why? I can no longer disagree with them because they're masons? Maybe you can say I was too harsh, that's sort of fair. But they're not immune from criticism just because they are masons.

If you were convinced that both PJ and chamber were town, then I would expect you to try to make peace between them, or to convince chamber to just answer the questions and get it over with, or to convince PJ that he's acting in a way that's not helpful, or to convince PJ that chamber is town, or something.

Insulting PJ and undo because of their chamber votes doesn't do any of that. Just insulting them, without trying to actually convince them that chamber is town or whatever, is just going to make them dig their heels in more, and predictably so. It's a way for you to *escalate* the fight between PJ and chamber, while trying to look like you're on chamber's side.

I haven't found pj's questions helpful at all this game (and I'm not the only one to criticize him for this). I was subjected to them Day 1 and it felt like being badgered by someone under the pretense of logical questioning without any real appreciation for their point of view.

PJ knows what he's doing. He's one of the stronger mafia players I've ever played with, and everything he does has a purpose.

I can understand blowing the questions off if you're not sure of his alignment or if you're worried he's scum trying to make you look bad, but if you accept that he's town, then not co-operating with him doesn't make sense.

I don't even care about chamber's stubborness here; I think it's anti-town for him to refuse to answer questions, but it's not scummy, imho, there's no real scum motivation for him here. But you supporting him in answering questions, there is.

Also, if you were town who actually thought PJ was scum earlier and now know that you were totally wrong, I would expect your behavior toward PJ to have changed more then it has.

This is fair enough, but I'm not sure it's easy for me to put into words why I'm so convinced chamber is town. Part of it was his intensity out of the gate Day 1, part of it is his attitude. He is much more cautious and logical as scum. His play here is essentially carefree and he's only that way as town.

Even if you had just said that to PJ, that would have been a much more logical play then just calling him "petty". I'm sure you know that's not true; you're just trolling a confirmed town PJ, most likely because you are trying to get PJ to lash out even harder at chamber.

[VitaminR]

What a load of paranoid BS.

I'm trolling pj to lash out at chamber? Where do you even come up with this stuff?

Where did this all come from? One moment you look like perfectly normal townYos and now you're constructing all sorts of crazy little theories based on one-line comments that I didn't think more than two seconds about. You must admit that you're reading RATHER A LOT into things here.

[VitaminR]

I'm not accusing you of defending chamber (that is, trying to stop him from being lynched). You don't seem to be doing that, really. What I'm accusing you of is trying to be buddy-buddy with chamber as a way to manipulate him.

I explicitly address this point above. Did you read my reply? Where are my attempts to manipulate chamber? The ONE question I asked him? Is that it?

You are defending CES, which I'm not a fan of, but I'll admit that's not really a strong argument against you until we know CES's alignment. Your relations with Chamber look different then that; making a point with saying you agreed with him even if cases where it didn't seem to fit what you had previously said (for example, in the one quote above, his opinion of Undo looks different then the one you previously had, but you just quote him and say "yessss").

Wrong. The 'yesss' reply quoted above was in response to chamber saying he was willing to look at pj (I was happy about this because I was convinced pj was scum).

It's also a little weird when you say things like "Gee, I was wrong about both PJ and Glork, maybe I should re-evaluate all my town reads" and then instantly go right back to buddying chamber and defending CES without showing any sign of re-evaluting your reads on them.

If I re-evaluate my reads, it doesn't mean I have to change my opinion on everybody. I'm not going to throw out everything. I thought about it and I still think they're town. I don't think I'm wrong about them.

Well, I'm not surprised to see you defending CES like you are. I just don't get what your interactions with chamber are supposed to accomplish if you're town, though.

They're not supposed to accomplish anything. There's no art or design to my interactions with chamber, no masterplan. I have just posted my opinion and asked him a question once or twice.

If you were convinced that both PJ and chamber were town, then I would expect you to try to make peace between them, or to convince chamber to just answer the questions and get it over with, or to convince PJ that he's acting in a way that's not helpful, or to convince PJ that chamber is town, or something.

You really think it's realistic to expect me "try and make peace between them"? I'm not their camp counselor. I posted my opinion to counterbalance pj's, which I thought would be more effective. I concede your point that I was probably too harsh, though.

PJ knows what he's doing. He's one of the stronger mafia players I've ever played with, and everything he does has a purpose.

I can understand blowing the questions off if you're not sure of his alignment or if you're worried he's scum trying to make you look bad, but if you accept that he's town, then not co-operating with him doesn't make sense.

I don't even care about chamber's stubborness here; I think it's anti-town for him to refuse to answer questions, but it's not scummy, imho, there's no real scum motivation for him here. But you supporting him in answering questions, there is.

Also, if you were town who actually thought PJ was scum earlier and now know that you were totally wrong, I would expect your behavior toward PJ to have changed more then it has.

Whether I find his questioning useful is not an alignment-dependent opinion. I'm not going to unquestionably venerate his methods, like you seem to be doing, just because he's a claimed mason.

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

Actually, VitaminR, I think all of your votes (save your LoudmouthLee vote and possibly your initial page two vote on DrippingGoofball) have been on Townspeople (Glork, myself, undo, Sotty7). You started Day Two with how I would expect scum to start Day Two. Your play is inoffensive and you generally respond to all suggestions you are scum with "Ha!." Given that your votes have been so

wrong

it is notable how few people actually seem to want to lynch you; the only thing you have going for you is that you attacked LoudmouthLee. And given that

so many people

have theorized that LoudmouthLee was bussed and the lack of attacks on

you

, you are a fine candidate for a lynch (supposing a purposeful blind eye towards you). You certainly don't look particularly Townish.

I never voted undo and actually said that wagon was bad several times. Also, you don't know whether Sotty is town. But anyway, whether my votes were on townies wasn't at all your point. You said I looked like I was setting up play for later. How was I doing that with any of my other votes? You can tell me my votes for you and Glork were bad. Fine, I've earned that. I was wrong, I have to deal with the consequences. But you can't accuse me of setting up play for later in the game with them. I was trying to get both of you lynched and

as soon as possible

, even if I was wrong-headed in doing so.

My apologies, I mentally mixed your voting record with Glork's and was trying to go from memory.

It is not your votes that makes you look like you're setting yourself up for later, it is simply your playstyle and I am certainly influenced in reading your play this game in light of your play in the aforementioned Calvin & Hobbes Mafia where you were content to sit back as the Town tore itself to pieces but you were more than willing to place your votes in ways that achieved mislynches (while being willing to unvote when you "changed your mind," i.e., probably thought you might catch some flak for it and knew that changing your mind occasionally makes you look thoughtful and better). You played a little of the arbiter (trying not to get directly into confrontations) without outright defending players, and you ended up winning in LyLo. You are probably correct that I cannot read you, and so if I cannot read you, my frame of reference should be your votes, which besides your LoudmouthLee vote have not looked very good to me. It's more like you are testing for trap tiles in a room and seeing if you can put your full weight there; if you can, you do, or else you ease off.

2.)

My vote is on chamber in part because I have not found (or at least I have not

made

) time to reread this game and adjust my reads in light of the flips, which is how I would prefer to play. (This game is just way too long). I cannot read players who don't post anything to be read (such as chamber, Cogito Ergo Sum, Albert B. Rampage, and at least early in the game, DrippingGoofball). My questions are not trying to "trap" chamber -- I just want to understand his thought process

and

if my posts are "awful" I would like that explained. I cannot exactly correct my "awful" posts if one just says they suck without explaining why. I make mistakes all the time and I'm willing to admit to them, but just saying I suck without more isn't helping anything nor is it going to help my increasing disinterest and frustration with the game.

3.)

I am not sure what to think of Yosarian2's recent posts. It feels like he was trying to make a small point at first and upon getting pushback he expanded on the theme. To be fair, I don't think it's

overly

paranoid; with a game filled with high-caliber players, one would expect subtlety to be at a maximum, which is consistent with the theory that VitaminR could be scum. But I also don't really think Yosarian2 believes the theory he is asserting.

(Side-note: I don't think of myself as a "coldly logical" player. I am annoying hot-headed and easy to fluster and I wish I was less so. But anyways.)