Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[Dr Pants]

^ but if why not has a known target or pool of targets that we suspect to be town, then we'd know if scum has an RB cause no one would get a message

[farside22]

^ but if why not has a known target or pool of targets that we suspect to be town, then we'd know if scum has an RB cause no one would get a message

Unless I missed something with why not 's role nothing stops that from happening if that exists.

[Shiryu]

I'm finding it pretty annoying that I ask questions that don't get answered. Looking at you, CooLDoG and Baezu.

So, with Pants' and Anatole's exchange on this last page I'm pretty sure I got the gist of how Why Not's role works, and in retrospect I feel stupid for not catching on before. Now I can see specifically why both Pants and Why Not found me to be scummy with my line of questioning.

With that said, I noticed something that bothered me about that exchange:

Then how did Why Not say Baezu was town before you did?

Because he saw that I said Baezu was town, and he targeted Baezu. If Baezu was scum I would have targeted her immediately

At this point I don't want to derail the plan we have or have you, Pants, give any more information than you already have. So I won't ask you (or anyone) to explain this. I just need to have this noted, as it may be something we'll need to touch back on tomorrow, depending on how things go.

About Marcrell, I'll likely be voting for him as well, once we feel we're ready to move on to the night phase. I was hoping he'd have more to say, since I really wanted to find out why Majiffy saw him as town, but ultimately it's just more of the same lack of presence in the game.

[Dr Pants]

Marcell is at L-1. No one should vote him until we've finalized our plan, and we need to hear what Why Not thinks.

[Belisarius]

Vote Count 04/11/1917.07

(L-2)

Marcrell: (4) CooLDoG, Why not, Anatole Kuragin, Baezu
Shiryu: (1) Dr Pants
Baezu: (1) Paschendale

Not Voting: Marcrell, Messiah Complex, Shiryu, farside22

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-08-18 15:10:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[/area]

[farside22]

I'm just doing side by side comparison of Marcell finished games and this game.

If like to see a full read this with reasons from him.

Today for example is where he just feels like he's blending in and I have no clue why he's scum reading anyone.

Compared to this just finished game
I noted he got prided but he was more verbose.


Ebwop

Hey I miscounted!

vote: Macrell

[farside22]

This was for my amusement and part why I ignore pasch in general:

This post

Pasch is one of those I can't read without raging. I'd lynch him more just because his actions are so hypocritical.

Yummy buzzwords! Hypocritical, in this case, means "calling you out on your anti-town actions."

And I had to go through many different post to see what pasch supposedly called out.

nope! not gonna happen

if I wait to say it until its necessary then we'll have more information we can get out of it

Pache, stop lurking. It makes you look scummy

There's just so much bickering going on that I'm having trouble keeping up. I know people want to lynch Marcrell. I've been asking why for 20 pages and no one will produce a satisfying answer. Thor's flip makes it unlikely that we're going to lynch you. Baezu and Farside are still great choices for lynches. Why Not needs to lay their damn cards on the table. Other than that, it's basically just a lot of noise.

Wow, all of this role nonsense got us nowhere, and I was right from the start in thinking that Why Not is town. I'm still all for lynching Baezu.

Pasch: do you have a read on Marcell?

He's lurky, but for a busy game that's only a few days old, I'm very reluctant to vote people for what they aren't doing, rather than what they are.

you think the person driving the wagon is scummy. Explain please.

We usually argue over attitude, but that's not happening here. It usually looks, to me, like he's just hammering relentlessly on someone who hasn't really warranted such actions. I'm not seeing that here. That makes me suspicious.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

I'd really love to see some solid cases on Marcrell. The most I've seen so far boils down essentially to being lurky. It's not very compelling, nor is that idea that there is nothing sufficiently scummy in the more active players.

Marcrell is also right up there on my scum radar. Ultimately I'd say he was still the worst on the me wagon, and I don't think his response to it was all that solid. And of course now I would add the overall lack of presence in the game. At least Messiah's throwing in some pretty detailed posts when he reports in.

Why was it so bad? Is that your only reason? No one else looks scummier than that?

Also considering Baezu as possible scum candidate. Why Not was right, 201 is just shifty looking, and despite her lates posts, is just something that really jumped out at me while going over the game again.

Agreed.

Could everyone please lay out their current reads? I think too many people are getting caught up in minutia. Jiffy, top 3 scum. Farside - same. If we all agree that marcrell is super scum, great. But there's got to be other people that are being scummy for non-fabricated reasons. Who are those people? I'm still not convinced dr pants is town soy reads list is still accurate up until this point

Messiah
Farside
???

This is useful.

My top three are Baezu, Farside, and Pants.

The last several pages have read like pure bickering...

Cooldog is towning it up, though. He's trying to cut through the bullshit, and props to him for doing it. And Baezu is working her way onto the scumpile. So is Thor. I can't usually tell his town bluster from his scum bluster, but it seems to have less purpose. I expect Jiffy to just poke things with sharp sticks. Thor is usually more precise than this. Focused aggression is towny, unfocused aggression is not.

Still prefer Pants or Farside, though.

Peedit: And some real content from Viking Cat. I'd prefer that, too.

Farside's characterization of my actions are a big part of it. Misunderstanding or misrepresenting Majiffy's take on it in an attempt to create suspicion of me. Attempting to rely on a color-by-numbers approach with the whole "how is one player explaining a lot town and another scum" bit, rather than actually analyzing the differences. I don't think she's stupid, so why be so dense? Pants was establishing how I'm often lynchbait on day 1, so perhaps Farside was attempting to take advantage of that for a uncontroversial day 1 mislynch. In 109 it looks like she's arguing that we shouldn't be analyzing content at all and should just be voting on gut feeling or looking for tells all the time. She also thinks that being 4th on a wagon is apparently suspect. She's also very defensive against Majiffy, despite him not voting for her or pursuing her. And above, he explicitly doesn't think she's scum. Her votes on Pants and Majiffy are unfounded. Are they just gut? Are they jokes? Are they bullshit? I return to my original accusation of Shiryu, of distancing oneself from the consequences of one's vote. As I said before, scum worry about how their votes will look after the wagons they push flip town.

And all I gathered he!s holding onto one point and it hasn't moved onto anything else for any other reason.


@pants: is it normal for pasche to hold onto a scum read like that for such a weak reason?

[farside22]

Oh and one post I quoted he was talking about Macrell. Just something that caught my attention while looking

[Dr Pants]

tbh, his play right now doesn't fit either his town meta or his scum meta based on games I've played with him. So I'm not really using meta on him this game, I just think that his positions have been useless/bad and he's been lurky. Both those make me read scum on him.

[CooLDoG]

Here's the potential problem I see

If Why Not sends the info to scum, they could just withhold it and we wouldn't know if they got it or if theres an RB

If we know who gets the info then we'll know scum has an RB if they dont get it

yeah, but he still shouldn't tell us. He seems smart enough to give it to town.

Well if Why Not can send info to scum - how do we know you are town pants?

his reaction to the claim is pretty solid imho.

you dont know that I'm town

you should suspect that I am given Thor's flip though

ohh, and also this.

no thats a good plan. Why Not definitely chooses who to target and who receives the info, since he knew it was about Baezu. And it doesn't help scum in any way if they know who gets targeted

scum will just kill who is to recieve the information making the role 100% useless. Guys, we just have to trust that he sends it to town.

[farside22]

tbh, his play right now doesn't fit either his town meta or his scum meta based on games I've played with him. So I'm not really using meta on him this game, I just think that his positions have been useless/bad and he's been lurky. Both those make me read scum on him.

Oh god.
I was hoping for something definite. That was just one example I had of his play that had me wanting to tear my hair out and start ranting.
I mean I don't get why baezu is a scum read over Macrell based on game play. I mean if you never played with either wouldn't you scum read them equally?
.......

Baezu: have you played with pasche?

[Why not]

unvote

L-2

[Baezu]

@shiryu- what questions did you ask that I failed to answer, sorry that I missed them.

@beli- nice role PM to why not! ;p

[Baezu]

@farside. I have and he's usually aggressive-as town or scum.

[Dr Pants]

no thats a good plan. Why Not definitely chooses who to target and who receives the info, since he knew it was about Baezu. And it doesn't help scum in any way if they know who gets targeted

scum will just kill who is to recieve the information making the role 100% useless. Guys, we just have to trust that he sends it to town.

You misunderstood. Why Not has to send two targets: 1 person who gets "investigated", and one person who receives the results. Last night Baezu was investigated, and I received the results. I'm saying that Why Not tells us who he investigates. This prevents scum from pretending they got a town result on one of their own in the case that Why Not sends the info to scum and dies.

[Dr Pants]

@farside. I have and he's usually aggressive-as town or scum.

^exactly. This is some odd off-brand version of Pasche, but it smells scummy.

[farside22]

Well that's really confusing.

I may take pasche off my ignore list.

[Shiryu]

@shiryu- what questions did you ask that I failed to answer, sorry that I missed them.

Well it had just been one for you, following up on what I had asked before:

@Baezu: Alright, so if that had been you in my shoes, when Pants mentioned not being sure why Why Not would have known the info he got, you'd have just left it at that?

Though now that I think I figured out how Why Not's role works, the question is kind of irrelevant.

[Dr Pants]

Tin foil theory time:

Pasche is a Serial Killer.

Firstly, we've been assuming that Thor was a vig kill, but there are issues with this. There were only a couple people who thought Thor was scum, most thought he was town.
Secondly, we've been assuming that their is no 3rd party due to role reasons, but this doesn't have to be true. For all we know, someone here is a Serbian Nationalist or something.
Third, from a game theory perspective, its a little weird for town to have an investigative role, a doc, and a vig. The vig is much more likely to do harm to town than good in this scenario. However, an investigative role, a doc, and a SK, makes a lot of sense.

I played 4 days of scum with Pasche. Pasche as scum is good. His moves are calculated and in sync with his partners. He's openly part of town, and more of a manipulator than a lurker.
I've played 2 games where Pasche was town. His town game is much less organized. He'll sometimes go with strange reads or jump at things that don't make sense.

Now, optimal SK play is to play low key, but very pro-town. You hunt scum at day, and kill town at night.
Pasche had day 1 opinions but a lot of them were sheeping. His reads matched Thor's a little too well for them to be a scum team. It looks more like Pasche actually thought Thor was town, and was sheeping him to stay in the pro-town camp under the shadow of a very loud player. A NK on Thor makes sense as well. Scum would likely kill someone who wasn't on the Majiffy wagon, so a kill of Thor would be one that would likely go through.

Pasche's overall play then makes sense. His game looks like he's trying to play pro town and low key, but messed up his reads day 1 and is now in the scum camp. His votes generally lie with the majority, and he's talking enough to not be too lurky while not talking so much as to become a major read of anyone.

If both kills tonight lie on people we've marked out as town/PR's/etc, then we likely have a SK.

[Dr Pants]

Allied Powers

are the equivalent of Town

Central Powers

are the equivalent of Mafia.

christ im dense

[Why not]

Can't the vig go ahead and claim so that I don't waste a target on him/her.

[Dr Pants]

they should claim if they're one shot, if they still can kill they shouldn't

[Why not]

The way I see it, if I end up targetting the vig, we've wasted a scan on someone who will probably be off the scumkill radar for the next few days and whose role is mostly antitown in the first place. And if he's an SK, we'll manage to narrow who down sooner rather than later. In fact, we should promise death to any vig who doesn't claim right now, provided that he isn't someone we've already confirmed as town.

[Shiryu]

So why did we assume no SK? Was it because the two specific factions? In any case, I'm not the vig.

[Dr Pants]

well cause it turns out mod told us there were only 2 factions in the 2nd post