Mini 1592: Flying Aces (Game Over)

[Paschendale]

I've already emphasized a few times that we still need to scumhunt.

You keep claiming that all my scumreads are super special from your magical powers. I trust your honesty, but I don't think you have this right.

I mean, marcell lynch does not give us that much information to be honest. I completely understand the pasch wagon. He has literally contributed nothing to this game at all. He just comes in to antagonize people from time to time... I could go for his wagon. I am likeing farside a bit better as of latem and I don't think I want to lynch him today.

Except that I make good cases on who is scum and who is town. But aside from that, yeah, I don't do anyway. Oh wait, that's the most important thing to do! I may not have many new cases to make right now, but there's been virtually no resolution to my old ones, and the only things going on today are that my few genuine townreads are talking about PR powers and my scumreads are continuing to be scummy. What do you want me to do, make up cases without actually believing in them?

[Paschendale]

I don't do anything*

[farside22]

I've already emphasized a few times that we still need to scumhunt.

You keep claiming that all my scumreads are super special from your magical powers. I trust your honesty, but I don't think you have this right.

I mean, marcell lynch does not give us that much information to be honest. I completely understand the pasch wagon. He has literally contributed nothing to this game at all. He just comes in to antagonize people from time to time... I could go for his wagon. I am likeing farside a bit better as of latem and I don't think I want to lynch him today.

Except that I make good cases on who is scum and who is town. But aside from that, yeah, I don't do anyway. Oh wait, that's the most important thing to do! I may not have many new cases to make right now, but there's been virtually no resolution to my old ones, and the only things going on today are that my few genuine townreads are talking about PR powers and my scumreads are continuing to be scummy. What do you want me to do, make up cases without actually believing in them?

No you make omgus cases on town.

Or bitch to people that scum read you.

Yawn.

[Shiryu]

Knew I'd get flak for that. I'm not saying Pasch is town, but I agree with his concerns. CD, do you disagree that it we can't blindly trust every claim that's been made? Do you disagree that we need to be open to the possibility that scum may be involved?

CD, I'm also finding it odd that you specifically mentioned Marcrell not being a good lynch when you had been all for it in your previous posts. Why justify the unvote when your reasons for voting Pasch would have been good enough?

[farside22]

I'm not sure what pasche concern is. Is there a reason to be suspicious of every person? How many scum does he think is in this game? I mean last I looked this is a 13 player game and I haven't see a 4 or 5 player scum game with 13 players.

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

[Shiryu]

Obviously I don't mean everyone involved could be scum, just that we need to keep an open mind to possible combinations. For example, and this is all hypothetical of course, but perhaps Messiah and Why Not are scum partners and have made Pants think he's playing an important part in this "plan" we plan on following. Or maybe it's Messiah and Pants that have deluded Why Not into thinking he's given information to a town player, and Baezu's just being used as a scapegoat to make the whole thing seem more legit. Or maybe Baezu is scum after all and Pants has already cleared her name by confirming her "innocent". Maybe it's just one in that group that's scum instead of two. Hell, maybe even CooLDoG might be involved.

These are all, of course, very unlikely possibilities, especially with regards to Why Not (going back to how the reveal with Pants was made) and CooLDoG (given his claim), and I don't plan on voting on any of them on this second day unless a good enough reason comes up. I'm just saying we need to have an open mind to these possibilities for our third day.

As far as who we'd be voting for this day, this would reduce the lynch pool to:

Marcrell
Paschendale
Anatole Kuragin
Shiryu
farside22

I think I'm going to have to do a proper re-read of the whole threat, since out of these players, the only one I've gotten a scum read on is Marcrell, which as I've mentioned before, is due to his lack of presence in the game. Not just the lurking, but the poor content in his posts. Pasch, Anatole and farside I've just been undecided on throught the game. I suppose I am quite the fence sitter, farside. I'll try to remedy that.

[Why not]

I have an idea. But I've been in this rut keeping me from posting things of content.

[Shiryu]

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

Farside, that is one question I don't believe we should be asking. If I'm not mistaken, it's that point exactly that got me into trouble before, since I had assumed Why Not did get this information and tried to push for him to confirm it, which he avoided answering. So Why Not probably doesn't get any info (and we've been going on the assumption that that's the case), but maybe he does. And if he does, it would be an extra weapon for us to use against scum. It's best to leave this unanswered.

If I was seen as scummy for trying to dig into this, then I don't see why you shouldn't. Consider this a point against you in my book.

[farside22]

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

Farside, that is one question I don't believe we should be asking. If I'm not mistaken, it's that point exactly that got me into trouble before, since I had assumed Why Not did get this information and tried to push for him to confirm it, which he avoided answering. So Why Not probably doesn't get any info (and we've been going on the assumption that that's the case), but maybe he does. And if he does, it would be an extra weapon for us to use against scum. It's best to leave this unanswered.

If I was seen as scummy for trying to dig into this, then I don't see why you shouldn't. Consider this a point against you in my book.

You serious? You asked a question that you see is needed but your saying well I'm town and thought I should ask, but people called me scum so I'll call someone scum that asked a question too.

Wow I can't imagine this coming from anything resembling a reasonable person,

Let's use facts instead of stupid.
You repeatedly asked for info after the claim. I see people talking paranoid bs that does no fucking good today so I asked one question to stop the fucking paranoia.
Now tell me how what I did and you did repeatedly is the same?

[Why not]

What do you want me to do, make up cases without actually believing in them?

I'd rather you do something helpful. You are in THIS situation, now, pasche. And if you have my win condition, you should be looking for the best thing that can possibly be done in THIS situation.

I'm probably going to confirm Pants tonight. I'd rather we be certain about the pool of confs we have now than ambitiously try to expand it further than necessary. We've got to get back into scumhunting mode, guys.

[Shiryu]

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

Farside, that is one question I don't believe we should be asking. If I'm not mistaken, it's that point exactly that got me into trouble before, since I had assumed Why Not did get this information and tried to push for him to confirm it, which he avoided answering. So Why Not probably doesn't get any info (and we've been going on the assumption that that's the case), but maybe he does. And if he does, it would be an extra weapon for us to use against scum. It's best to leave this unanswered.

If I was seen as scummy for trying to dig into this, then I don't see why you shouldn't. Consider this a point against you in my book.

You serious? You asked a question that you see is needed but your saying well I'm town and thought I should ask, but people called me scum so I'll call someone scum that asked a question too.

Wow I can't imagine this coming from anything resembling a reasonable person,

Let's use facts instead of stupid.
You repeatedly asked for info after the claim. I see people talking paranoid bs that does no fucking good today so I asked one question to stop the fucking paranoia.
Now tell me how what I did and you did repeatedly is the same?

I made a mistake and assumed Why Not did have the information. At the time I thought that'd be a good way to confirm that he was indeed pro-town. So yes, I repeatedly asked it since I wasn't getting an answer. It wasn't until later that I caught on on why this was a really, really bad line of questioning. I've already addressed this, I admit this was scummy on my part and won't fight back against anyone that claims it as such.

So to answer your question, yes what we've done is the same. I just asked it more times because I was stubborn.

Now I ask you, how does that question specifically stop the "paraonia"? It eliminates some scenarios, but not all of them.

[Paschendale]

I have an idea. But I've been in this rut keeping me from posting things of content.

You should probably not do that.

What do you want me to do, make up cases without actually believing in them?

I'd rather you do something helpful. You are in THIS situation, now, pasche. And if you have my win condition, you should be looking for the best thing that can possibly be done in THIS situation.

I'm probably going to confirm Pants tonight. I'd rather we be certain about the pool of confs we have now than ambitiously try to expand it further than necessary. We've got to get back into scumhunting mode, guys.

Well, I've been pushing Baezu and Farside for a while. Their actions haven't exactly changed since I started suspecting them. It's been more of the same. There are presumably two or three living scum. Those are my top two suspects. Farside for very defensive stances, not offering useful original content, and for following along so as not to arouse suspicion. 229 is a good summation of my case against her. Baezu, meanwhile, has had incredibly wishy washy reads, and has likewise followed along. But since the consensus of the town is to clear Baezu for now, I'll put her below my other read.

VOTE: Farside

You should join me here. This is very likely a scum lynch.

[farside22]

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

Farside, that is one question I don't believe we should be asking. If I'm not mistaken, it's that point exactly that got me into trouble before, since I had assumed Why Not did get this information and tried to push for him to confirm it, which he avoided answering. So Why Not probably doesn't get any info (and we've been going on the assumption that that's the case), but maybe he does. And if he does, it would be an extra weapon for us to use against scum. It's best to leave this unanswered.

If I was seen as scummy for trying to dig into this, then I don't see why you shouldn't. Consider this a point against you in my book.

You serious? You asked a question that you see is needed but your saying well I'm town and thought I should ask, but people called me scum so I'll call someone scum that asked a question too.

Wow I can't imagine this coming from anything resembling a reasonable person,

Let's use facts instead of stupid.
You repeatedly asked for info after the claim. I see people talking paranoid bs that does no fucking good today so I asked one question to stop the fucking paranoia.
Now tell me how what I did and you did repeatedly is the same?

I made a mistake and assumed Why Not did have the information. At the time I thought that'd be a good way to confirm that he was indeed pro-town. So yes, I repeatedly asked it since I wasn't getting an answer. It wasn't until later that I caught on on why this was a really, really bad line of questioning. I've already addressed this, I admit this was scummy on my part and won't fight back against anyone that claims it as such.

So to answer your question, yes what we've done is the same. I just asked it more times because I was stubborn.

Now I ask you, how does that question specifically stop the "paraonia"? It eliminates some scenarios, but not all of them.

People fight back if there is a reason for the question.
Did you think there was a good reason for the question?
Now let's look at what you asked.

Wait, so info he couldn't know? That may change things. I'd like to know the contents of said message now, if you feel it would be a good idea to reveal it.

He's kind got you there Pants.

So again, I don't care for the specifics of the role or what you actually discovered. Just give him the tiniest bit of info that he can use to confirm that you're on the same page and I'll be convinced to consider you both town.

You asked with the idea of two people scum together. I think I even read a theory of thor sending it and why not taking credit.

Now why this is possible is beyond me considering that pants voted why not and made a case, where a scum team playing others makes sense.
Please answer why you thought they could be scum after liking pants case please.

But to answer your question.

Let's say why not gets the info too, he sends it to play z (whoever) he can confirm the truth of the message if it's known to him.
Again I suggested that if Macrell isn't scum that why not pick someone to send to other then pants to keep the paranoia of pants/why not scum team. Or as I called it paraniod bs.
Now which paranoia besides possible GF could you have with the report?

[farside22]

I have an idea. But I've been in this rut keeping me from posting things of content.

You should probably not do that.

What do you want me to do, make up cases without actually believing in them?

I'd rather you do something helpful. You are in THIS situation, now, pasche. And if you have my win condition, you should be looking for the best thing that can possibly be done in THIS situation.

I'm probably going to confirm Pants tonight. I'd rather we be certain about the pool of confs we have now than ambitiously try to expand it further than necessary. We've got to get back into scumhunting mode, guys.

Well, I've been pushing Baezu and Farside for a while. Their actions haven't exactly changed since I started suspecting them. It's been more of the same. There are presumably two or three living scum. Those are my top two suspects. Farside for very defensive stances, not offering useful original content, and for following along so as not to arouse suspicion. 229 is a good summation of my case against her. Baezu, meanwhile, has had incredibly wishy washy reads, and has likewise followed along. But since the consensus of the town is to clear Baezu for now, I'll put her below my other read.

VOTE: Farside

You should join me here. This is very likely a scum lynch.

Lynch all liars.

Vote: pasch

I've made original content so that's a lie, asked for example of his points, he's dodged it and finally post 229 is nothing but omgus and therefore not a case.

[farside22]

VOTE: Pasche

Just so the mod see's it


You want to do 1 for 1 there pasche? Your nothing cases and lies against me calling you out for holding onto bs and bitching about the day so far?

[farside22]

And the question pasche keeps dodging are these;

have you ever thought that maybe you aren't as good at labeling town/scum behavior as you think you are

I'm better than some, not as good as others. Pretty everyone is always wrong about me, though. The more seriously I try to find and lynch scum, the more often I get called obviously scum. So, since I'm offered a chance to watch people be very very wrong almost every game, I'm very good at finding bad wagons.

My vote is still on Baezu mainly because I think there's definitely some bullshit on all this confirming, because Baezu's actual posts don't present a town image, and because there's no place I'd prefer to put it right now.

Well you haven't done anything else since then. You just follow along when Pants or other active players are taking the lead. You haven't contributed anything to scumhunting and mostly just whined about me when you aren't nodding vigorously to what townier players are saying.

Let's see after you omgus case, I fought with jiffy and asked questions. Today I did not vot why not , so I didn't follow fucking anyone there and vote baezu, again not following pants.
What have you done not list scum reads and not explain jack fucking shit on them.

The rest of people's post can wait till I'm back.

So yes, you complained and argued and didn't contribute, and then you followed other people's leads.

---------------------

Pretty much the only people I wouldn't lynch today are Why Not and Cooldog. This is because their posts are actually beneficial to town. Their points are genuine and their contributions sincere. All of this confirming stuff looks too convienient and is too vague and this is not a game where you win by trusting people. There is definitely scum in it somewhere.

Well that's fucking horseshit.
Please post the quote were I followed someone on a lynch that I did not already state a scum read on.

however, i do agree with your thoughts on marcell and farside

are you willing to mass claim?

Lurking, while posting little to nothing in game and is okay to post elsewhere is town?
No please explain this to me.
I'd like to lurk, provide no case after some shows meta that I'm not like that and be called town.

As for mass claim....I know I was back up mod for bal's last game but I do not recall how many pr 's there were.
So far, vig and a cop that sends info has claimed? If I missed something I'm sorry. I don't think mass claim is good idea.

Despite your clearing from Thor's flip, there isn't even a lot of pro-town content from you

k

I sincerely hope that Why Not investigates you tonight.

Or we could just lynch you now

Kill your detractors. Clearly pro-town. You don't care about finding the right people, just wanna get rid of the people who don't buy your crap. This is part of the "even if you have PR and flip reasons to make you look like town, none of your actual posts do".

I have no objection to a massclaim.

I missed that willing to lynch/scum read you had on pants day 2.
Is there a reason for the attitude?

[Why not]

i keep having these illusions that we can all get along but then i remember that in this thread we are all people trying to kill other people

[Shiryu]

Here let's try a few questions.

Why not; are you informed of the results of your investigation?

Farside, that is one question I don't believe we should be asking. If I'm not mistaken, it's that point exactly that got me into trouble before, since I had assumed Why Not did get this information and tried to push for him to confirm it, which he avoided answering. So Why Not probably doesn't get any info (and we've been going on the assumption that that's the case), but maybe he does. And if he does, it would be an extra weapon for us to use against scum. It's best to leave this unanswered.

If I was seen as scummy for trying to dig into this, then I don't see why you shouldn't. Consider this a point against you in my book.

You serious? You asked a question that you see is needed but your saying well I'm town and thought I should ask, but people called me scum so I'll call someone scum that asked a question too.

Wow I can't imagine this coming from anything resembling a reasonable person,

Let's use facts instead of stupid.
You repeatedly asked for info after the claim. I see people talking paranoid bs that does no fucking good today so I asked one question to stop the fucking paranoia.
Now tell me how what I did and you did repeatedly is the same?

I made a mistake and assumed Why Not did have the information. At the time I thought that'd be a good way to confirm that he was indeed pro-town. So yes, I repeatedly asked it since I wasn't getting an answer. It wasn't until later that I caught on on why this was a really, really bad line of questioning. I've already addressed this, I admit this was scummy on my part and won't fight back against anyone that claims it as such.

So to answer your question, yes what we've done is the same. I just asked it more times because I was stubborn.

Now I ask you, how does that question specifically stop the "paraonia"? It eliminates some scenarios, but not all of them.

People fight back if there is a reason for the question.
Did you think there was a good reason for the question?

Are we talking about your question? Because I see making the answer public as something that would cause more harm than good for the town, so if you meant it as a pro-town question, then no, I don't see a good reason.

If you're talking about my question back then, at the time I thought I had a good reason, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. Again, I thought it would have been a good way to confirm Why Not was telling the truth about his claim.

Now let's look at what you asked.

Wait, so info he couldn't know? That may change things. I'd like to know the contents of said message now, if you feel it would be a good idea to reveal it.

He's kind got you there Pants.

So again, I don't care for the specifics of the role or what you actually discovered. Just give him the tiniest bit of info that he can use to confirm that you're on the same page and I'll be convinced to consider you both town.

You asked with the idea of two people scum together. I think I even read a theory of thor sending it and why not taking credit.

Now why this is possible is beyond me considering that pants voted why not and made a case, where a scum team playing others makes sense.
Please answer why you thought they could be scum after liking pants case please.

Did you specifically pick those two posts out of the several that I posted due the apparent contradiction in my statements? Because the way the conversation went in between those posts will show that I went from asking for the message to asking for just a piece of it due to how Pants and Why Not were responding.

And you are wrong in saying I asked with the idea of those two being scum together. I first started asking for that information thinking Why Not might be scum of the two.

I only started considering Pants and Why Not as a possible scum pair after Pants with the way he seems to be misinterpreting my requests. He made it seem like I was trying to get the information from him. It frustrated me to the point that I started thinking it might have all been an act, including his convincing case on Why Not. I did eventually admit it to be something that would be stupid to try to pursue in post 918.

Feel free to call me out on this if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I've considered Pants/Why Not as scum pair to be a possibility anymore.

But to answer your question.

Let's say why not gets the info too, he sends it to play z (whoever) he can confirm the truth of the message if it's known to him.
Again I suggested that if Macrell isn't scum that why not pick someone to send to other then pants to keep the paranoia of pants/why not scum team. Or as I called it paraniod bs.
Now which paranoia besides possible GF could you have with the report?

If Why Not gets the info too, then scum will not kill the investigated player (assuming they were considering an option) and will know to prepare for the fact that Why Not would know it as well, assuming he doesn't get night killed.

I'm not sure what you meant with that last question. Yes, if Why Not also gets the info then we'll certainly benefit from it. We'll deal with all of that tomorrow when the time comes. The "paranoia" I have right now is just to say that the lynch pool for today should not be set in stone, and that we should be open to it changing depending on what happens tomorrow. But I do agree to stick to it today.

[Paschendale]

And the question pasche keeps dodging are these;

I didn't really see that as a question. Maybe a rhetorical one, but allow me to answer with another question. Why do you think it doesn't count as following other people if you mention support of it before voting?

i keep having these illusions that we can all get along but then i remember that in this thread we are all people trying to kill other people

That does often make the blood run hot.

[Baezu]

Man this has to be town v mafia but I'm not sure who the maf is. Pasche is acting more like pasche now but I doubted he was town in the beginning. I've had my doubts on farside too. I just don't know but I think we shoul prob lynch one of pasche/farside because that would give us a lot of associative tells and info

[farside22]

i keep having these illusions that we can all get along but then i remember that in this thread we are all people trying to kill other people

If this is director towards me I will only appologies for calling people stupid. But I can not for the life of me understand why people keep bypassing Macrell or how people are okay with a omgus case from day 1 and a statement that is a lie.
If you want to explain those 2 things to me It would calm me down.
But until then I just feel like screaming at my computer.

[farside22]

And the question pasche keeps dodging are these;

I didn't really see that as a question. Maybe a rhetorical one, but allow me to answer with another question. Why do you think it doesn't count as following other people if you mention support of it before voting?

i keep having these illusions that we can all get along but then i remember that in this thread we are all people trying to kill other people

That does often make the blood run hot.

Wft are you talking about? Macrell? If that's all you have then you can explain how my points are unoriginal.
Or: researching meta, noting him posting in other games and my scum list has people that others did not so....?
So in short your taking one player that a few mention based on mostly one post most had issues with but I show various other reasons I find him scummy and I'm following.
No seriously that's your issue and why your lying right now?

[farside22]

Oh and I was the first fucking person to find jiffy scum. Was he town, yes. Does that make me a fucking follower no.
I also fucking voting messiah before anyone did. Did he claim doc, yes, can you sit there and say let's 100% believe it?
Fucking following.
Bullshit!

[farside22]

Pasche: are you town reading Macrell? If so why? If not why is being on his wagon scummy?

[Shiryu]

@Baezu: Why can't it be town vs. town?

@Pasch: Would you agree that Baezu would most certainly be scum if, and only if, Pants is scum with her?