Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Gemini Blind

Fish and water are more compatible than twins in water.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not in favor of this as it can easily allow the Mafia to influence the shot. The dayvig has a brain. That player should be allowed to use it.

I want dayvig to claim intent to shoot before actually shooting, and I want them to shoot today. I want them to shoot today because mafia probably wants to hang onto the dayvig in order to wait for earlier LyLo or a suicide shot while going down, and both of those are less advantageous than forcing mafia to take a shot they will have to explain. I also see no advantage lost from giving whoever you're going to shoot a chance to claim/give final thoughts if town.

since her having the daykill is just random and has no balance considerations, but scum need an excuse to use the daykill in a hard-to-scrutinize way

And shooting instantly is hard to scrutinize? Because I can think of a thousand things wrong with the shot if real and I'd be surprised if no one else could.

The dayvig should probably claim responsibility for their dayvig after they use it rather than before just in case scum can interfere with it in some way.

What do you imagine scum can do to a dayvig?

[Nachomamma8]

Actually, I don't want to approach that comment in a questioning, wait for you to reach the answer I already have way. I want to point something out:

Opposite Alignment Empowered - If the player that receives this is town, the scumteam may choose one fortunate horoscope. If the player that receives this is scum, the scumteam may not kill anyone during the next night phase.

Scum have two horoscopes (dayvig in scumhands, this horoscope in townhands) that award them an extra kill. They have two tries at said extra kill per day. You think that RedCoyote gave scum some day redirector power role to deal with vig power in town hands... why?

[Nachomamma8]

give me a bit to decide between elyse and WP for now, since there seems to be something going on with WP

Vote: Witness Protection

Join me.

[Nachomamma8]

Is this directed at Iecerint or me?

Iecerint.

[Nachomamma8]

horoscope says today is my motherfucking day so please pay extra attention to everything that i'm saying por favor

[Nachomamma8]

From my point of view, we are town, so if the mafia has it I want to know about it. If town has it, I don't really need to know about it, but it's not something I want to be worrying about on D3-D4 if the person who held it got killed N1 for instance.

^this is all i give a shit about + giving a person about to be shot getting a chance to claim before they die
we can do juls's thing if someone refuses to shoot before a reasonable time but I'd be surprised if that happened

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN:

StrangerCoug: Coug seems pretty aggressive and loudly town, shouldn't take too much explanation to get that through. Tone such as the tone thrown out in #86 is the type that I'd be pretty surprised if SC could replicate it as scum, it's the shining bright townie example of being aggressive for aggressive's sake and not giving a shit whose toes you trample on.

Xayzeck: Aside from the stream of consciousness posting which Xayzeck is already pretty talented at pulling off, I especially like the way he's approaching the wagon on him. As scum, RVS wagons can be difficult to navigate because they're so incredibly volatile and can rise or fall in a heartbeat. I feel like scumXay wouldn't want to approach that RVS wagon in the way he did (aka questioning everyone with a stance that matters) because he wouldn't want to poke that kind of beast as aggressively as he did as scum: and even if you lack that, I think questioning people on their townreads on you when you're under fire is a pretty good townread in and of itself, so.

Juls: There hasn't been much content admittedly (but in 5 pages I don't expect content to be bleeding out of all of the pages), but I like the daykill theory that she has talked about and I like the immediate out as non-dayvig. Now, I don't think being logical and making sense in a theory discussions matters at all alignment-wise but what Juls showed that no one else managed to encapsulate was effort, and that means a lot to me. It shows that she's putting effort into something that either A) fucks up plans if her buddy has the dayvig or B) makes a lot of unnecessary complications if her scumbuddy doesn't have it (aka gains her team nothing). I would like to challenge her on her "feels townie but isn't townie" comment because I'm with her on StrangerCoug feeling townie but don't understand how that suddenly translates to him not being townie.

LEAN TOWN:

PeregrineV: For me, the best thing in Peregrine's ISO is his Witness Protection vote. Not only do I feel it's probably going to hit scum, but I also think it's unlikely for Peregrine to forge his own way as scum (and such an odd own way, at that). The state of the game when Peregrine was going through the game left him in a unique position to pretty easily hop on a hypoXaytown wagon

SCUM:

Witness Protection: When I talked about how town Peregrine was based on timing, this is the flipside of the coin I was talking about. This was the type of vote that generally seemed like an attempt to convert the RVS Xay wagon to something serious or just continuing the momentum towards that lynch. I'm less excited about the vote since he seems to have flaked ( ).

Salamence20: Generally, whenever someone who I'd expect to at least be a presence is lacking AND their giving excuses, I check activity elsewhere. In this case, I found Salamence was generally more engaged pretty much everywhere else but here, which is strange because this game is lacking a lot of those red flags which generally cause inactivity (giant game, dense game, difficult to work with personalities), and his content is shit, to say the least. Dry said earlier that he would be picking on those who focused too heavily on theory, which is something I agree with when it follows so closely with scum motivation like this ISO seems to. #27 is a glorified prod dodge, #51 and related posts just seemed like Salamence picking on logic because it's something to post as opposed to the vote+pushes that literally everyone else made.

[Nachomamma8]

my horoscope gave me energy to do that but i don't think i have too much in me guys

[Nachomamma8]

a block a way from ludis park el camino parked
in her heart she hate it there, but in her mind she made it where
nothing really matters, so she hit the back seat
rosa parks never a factor when she's makin ends meet

[Nachomamma8]

ok let's fucking go

[Nachomamma8]

Gemini Blind:

So I read this game recently modded by Thesp where in moderator comments he basically called STD the towniest town ever to towned, and I see why even though I'm sure that fire hasn't blazed as hard as it could have because this game is weighed down a bit by theory theory theory (which could be why Salamence is lurking maybe but that doesn't make sense considering he contributed to it), but #93 is pretty nice tonally because holy shit the conviction. And it wouldn't normally be a towntell, but that type of conviction in this type of situation (talked about in the Juls townread)? Nah. I like his brother when he posts (aka nothing transparently scummy), especially since he seems to be a bit more inclined to prod at people and cares less about theory than STD does, but needs more posts.

Fixed tags.

[Nachomamma8]

Dry-Fit leans town because he has a tendency to cut through the bullshit and could happily focus on all the theory AND I like where his vote ended up, but that's one of those "based on hypothetical things" thus lean town.

[Nachomamma8]

fuck me elyse is my last scumread of the group
think burn is p town and iec is lean town

[Nachomamma8]

hqappiest killing wp or salamence

[Nachomamma8]

probably mostest happiest killing salamence

Vote: Salamence

[Nachomamma8]

independent

[Nachomamma8]

just conclusions lazily reached

[Nachomamma8]

psst let's kill salamence together xay

[Nachomamma8]

i know people will complain and shit when you sheep me for the second time today but I'll yell them off, I'll get this lynch, and he will flip scum
believe in me who believes in myself thanks to my horoscope which legitimately says "you can do anything"

[Nachomamma8]

unless there are cults, my towniness is here to stay
additionally, you aren't voting salamence with us

[Nachomamma8]

But when burn piggybacked it that seemed far more scummy.

What was scummy about what burn said other than it having gaps in logic?

[Nachomamma8]

So, attempting to sort out Dry-Fit/SC:

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

Why would it be a scumtell to strategize? You expect the town to screw itself over? Is that what I'm supposed to be getting?

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure. It may be rolefising. It may be trying to look protown without taking any actual stances. In any case it's not strategizing in itself that's scummy.

It's making strategizing te entirety or almost the entirety of your play.

I really do not buy this crap. Nobody's been talking exclusively about strategy, I don't smell anybody trying to rolefish, and while you admit that strategizing is not a scumtell, when we have some idea of who could have what, strategizing is quite protown. It's not unknown to break setups that way (though it's far too early for there to be evidence either way of a broken setup).

UNVOTE: Salamence20 (though I still wouldn't mind that person lynched)
VOTE: Dry-fit

Based on this post, I gather that SC's main problem with DryFit is that he seems to be railing against people who are strategizing because strategizing is vital to town and calling it a scumtell is antitown, but I think that point is pretty much completely talking past Dry-Fit's logic bolded here, which isn't even that Salamence is "strategizing exclusively", only that he's mostly done nothing but strategizing. I don't think the SC rebuttal of "he fluffed too" quite addresses this point.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah so it's his fluff posting that's saved him.

How, exactly, is his fluff posting "saving" him when I still have him on my scumlist? I think you're outright misrepping me at this point.

To this, it wasn't that his fluff posting saved him from your scumlist, it was that his fluff posting saved him from being someone who exclusively talked strategy. You said there wasn't anyone who exclusively talked strategy in the post quoted above.

[Nachomamma8]

I should just be as blunt as possible.

From my point of view, you're talking about strategizing in terms of talking about the setup/roles as a scumtell.

The dayvig is a random kill that's out there that is irrelevant to anyone's role.

Discussing the dayvig kill and even outting the dayvig doesn't lead to anyone's role information, but it could lead to alignment information.

This early? Role info is bad. Alignment info is tasty.

Since the dayvig is dangling out there, of course many people would probably jump on that.

As far as "strategy" goes, you mention things like role fishing, role/setup information, etc. All we know get to know is potentially who has the dayvig, and potentially what alignment they are. I'm concerned both with how early you brought up this tactic of looking towards people who strategize and speculate in order to post fluff as well as your definition of strategery since I question whether it applies in this particular situation.

~STD

This I don't actually understand at all. Here, you accuse Dry of regarding possessing a dayvig to be a scumtell and yet he hasn't said anything that so much as resembles that statement. So while I agree with your logic here because it's correct... I don't know why or how you've turned it into an attack on Dry.

[Nachomamma8]

I've done the best explanation I can. I pretty much have Salamence20 as useless, and the strategizing he's done is too little to make him town in my eyes.

And this is exactly what Dry is saying, only Dry also believes that he's done only strategizing instead of placing scumhunting as a priority should be another point against him.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I don't get your reasoning for this. The could maybe see you calling it town because it's something that's too risky for scum to say, but taking the position on page 6 doesn't seem that risky and thus not that town, and it prevents her from having to take positions on who to lynch because she doesn't have that opinion. I also didn't really like how she called me town and yet didn't engage my scumread on Salamence (aka pick out flaws in it) to see where I was coming from which shows me she not only lacks a scumread, but lacks interest in developing a scumread as well.

[Nachomamma8]

This early, that's enough for me.

This bothers me on some level because I feel like we won't be able to see eye to eye when I'm looking for a scum lynch and you're looking for something "good enough" early game. Why isn't what Salamence is doing good enough for an early game vote? Why do you think he's town?

[Nachomamma8]

It clarifies things.

When asked why strategizing is a scum tell, he says scum are most likely to talk about strategy, and hypothesizing that it may be due to rolefishing, or trying to look protown.

This seems to be your major problem with Dry's case, no? It's also the most underdeveloped case and not the reason he's voting. He's not voting Salamence because he's rolefishing. He's not voting Salamence because he's trying to look town. He's voting Salamence because Salamence is doing things other scum have done in other games he played and I think that's a perfectly reasonable reason to vote someone. I think I would agree with you if Dry opened the attack with "he's rolefishing" instead of "he's focusing too much on strategy", but here I think he just had trouble explaining why his scumtell was a scumtell and I've been in that position far too many times to scrutinize it.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean, in general, here's what I've seen from Dry-Fit:

I'm going to make a point of stating that I will not be joining the Xayzeck wagon.

I always appreciate people who stick themselves into the limelight a little it because it's not an advantageous position to be in as scum, and I liked this post because it seemed to be designed to get people to reanalyze Xay votes and pretty much nothing else. He didn't leverage his defense of Xay into a vote somewhere else, he just... disagreed. I like that.

You may wait for Elyse to respond I guess.

Gracious of you.

There are some players who tend to be more abrasive as town, whether it's because they feel more righteous or less nervous or whatever as town, but it bleeds out early and often. This is one of the examples of tone I look for in players like that and I'm pretty confident Dry is one of them.

At first I didn't like Elyse's response but the more I think about it the more I like it. I think responding to Gemini Blind's question in a way that didn't directly say she was suspicious of Xay was an honest response.

I see this post and what I see is an more complicated thought process unfolding that scum, 20/21 times, don't think to fake early game, which is "well it's scummy on a surface level for x reason but actually is town because of y reason". it especially rings true to me because i go through these thought processes a lot when thinking about the game elsewhere, i'll sit on things and turn them over in mind and have similar reactions and the similarities are very reassuring.

On his actual point:

My point would be just as valid even if this was an open game. I'm not just talking about speculation but strategizing instead of scumhunting as well.

It's a scumtell because in my experience scum is more likely to talk exclusively about strategy in the early game. Why that is I'm not sure.

Gemini, this seems to be the crux of his argument as well as the piece of his argument he actually cares about. I think you're focusing too heavily on a one-off hyptohesis and missing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

Nacho I think you're wrong about Elyse. Coming right out and saying you have no scumreads is most likely town

I liked this reach out to me re: defending his earlier read against someone who is lightly defending him when momentum is forming against him.

Have I suddenly lost the ability to communicate?

I also really, really liked this because I felt (feel?) I have a pretty good grasp on his argument whereas other people seemed to miss little points here and there, and it felt like this was a natural buildup of frustration that never got converted into an opportunity for scum (aka you're misrepping me!), and more "I'm talking a foreign language, no one understands me" type of feeling which feels like townie frustration because the frustration is formed from lack of frustration as opposed to accumulation of pressure.

[Nachomamma8]

It's not that I'm not interested in developing a scumread. Salamence has said he'll be away for a few days so I don't think it's scummy that he's been elsewhere on site or barely present.

He's said it on the 28th and I have no doubt his recent stretch of inactivity is legitimate, but before the 28th there was a strong pattern of posting everywhere but here even though it's not like catchup would take him that long. It's also not a matter of how long he's been around: it's a matter of how he's been spending his limited time when he's around and the answer is not good.

[Nachomamma8]

Do you not think partway down page 3 is a little early to accuse people of being scum for talking about something interesting in the set up? Do you expect people to be actively scumhunting by then?

I don't think Dry was accusing people for being scum because they talked about something interesting in the setup: I thought there were scum among people talking about the setup, which I found reasonable enough. I definitely think some people should be actively scumhunting by page 3. I don't think Dry is holding people to an unreasonable standard: maybe he's too early to be accurate, but I don't think he's too early in his attacks to be scummy, if that makes sense.

While I'm not saying he's obvscum and deserves to die, I think some of your pro-townie points given to Dry-fit in 167 are a bit of a stretch.

I agree. I think that his ISO as a whole has more town points than scum points, though.

I also think saying I think Dry-fit is scum because he said role stuff and dayvig is not a role is a bit of a strawman but I'll admit I haven't been very clear.

If you're accusing him of being scummy for telling people they can't strategize, that's addressed in rebuttal to SC.
If you're accusing him of being scummy for holding people to unreasonable standards, that's addressed above.
If it's something else entirely, I'm afraid I still don't know what you're talking about and I'm sorry for the massive levels of confusion.

[Nachomamma8]

I always try to get us out of RVS. It is pro-town, regardless of my actual alignment.

My biggest problems with your play this game is that you didn't do this, not that your theory was wrong. Your talk about why your activity was low is fair enough and I will happily drop this point, but I don't think any of your posts about theory moved the game along or were meant to move the game along. You saying the dayvig should out is cool and all but not at all revolutionary.

On the other side of things, I don't like Xay. All three votes of his have been bandwagons on Iec, WP, and myself, respectively. It just seems like trying to hiding behind the crowd on a mislynch.

Out of all the people on my wagon, Xay's and PV's votes are the worse. PV waits until Nacho tells him to hop on to vote, which seems as justified as Xay's reasoning. I think more pressure need to be put onto PV, Xay, or both.

Are the only scummy things you can pick up at this point are people who sheep? Why do you pick on PV over Xay when both sheeped me after I asked them to (and Xay sheeped me when I asked him to twice)?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a little Leary of how fast salamence's wagon grew. Town don't typically come together that easily on day 1. It could be a bus sure, but the speed is troublesome for me. I've only skimmed since my last post. I have fantasy football today but will read up tomorrow.

I don't think that speed of wagon growth and accuracy of wagon are correlated in a way where you can say "wagon is happening too fast, person is town". Every time I have been lynched as scum, my wagon has been incredibly fast because I'm usually pretty successful in fighting it off otherwise: remember how quickly I was lynched in Event Card? If you're uneasy with the wagon, point to the names that you're uncomfortable with and explain why.

not entirely true, asking about wether the dayvig should out or not is something.

It's not a significant enough chunk of content delivered with enough sincerity or conviction where I could declare you town or infer you town or have a tiny inkling of you being town. Everyone's created content equivalent or equal to that with the sole exception of the guy who just replaced in.

Even Slayer's gambit has it's effects.

You aren't town because you're the target of the push that freed us from RVS. Yes, I suppose in some fucked up thought process it's protown that you were scummy enough to warrant a wagon this early in the game, but that doesn't make you any more town: I've seen scum get caught on page 2 and lynched by page 7 or something and their play was incredibly protown (got the town out of RVS and got the town a scum lynch pretty quickly) but it didn't make them not scum all of a sudden.

You don't see anything wrong with that? You don't see any opportunity from this. Come on.

I don't freak out about early wagons, no, and the only opportunities I ever see are scum lynches. If I'm supposed to be seeing something else, please open my eyes.

Also Nacho, do you not like my reads or just don't like that I'm ignorant to my wagon that hit L-2?

I don't like your reads.
Which is why I questioned you about them.
Why didn't you answer?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like your reads.
Which is why I questioned you about them.
Why didn't you answer?

Your last post wasn't a response to this.

[Nachomamma8]

Are the only scummy things you can pick up at this point are people who sheep? Why do you pick on PV over Xay when both sheeped me after I asked them to (and Xay sheeped me when I asked him to twice)?

PV and Xay are both on your wagon, so when I'm asking you about people on your wagon, "I only care about people voting me" isn't a valid response.

[Nachomamma8]

Especially when these are the people you want to focus on that I'm asking you about.

[Nachomamma8]

Then what do you want from me!?

Xay sheeped me twice. PV sheeped me once. Why did you vote PV over Xay?

Those two quotes in particular really bother me and I'm not sure why you'd go out of your way to defend him (other than the assumption that you're confident he's town).

I went out of my way to defend Dry because I felt (and still feel) the majority of the attacks on him are based on a misunderstanding and I think he looks pretty town otherwise. I doubt I would have defended him as vehemently otherwise, but I absolutely have no problems with defending the hell out of a townread if they're strong enough.

[Nachomamma8]

sorry, i got a holiday work other commitments punch will be back soon

[Nachomamma8]

toasty finally caught up ^.^

[Nachomamma8]

wait did you seriously shoot gemini blind?

[Nachomamma8]

because if so, >.>
<.<

[Nachomamma8]

But isn't it more beneficial to use a dayvig shot when someone has gathered enough information to make a decision? Using it day 1 is no better than a random shot tbh.

I hope this means that the dayvig shot is a joke. I believe that using the dayvig day 1 is perfectly fine accuracy-wise: most of the reason later days are more informed than earlier ones is because of the people who are killed and give the town information. Town dayvigging facilitates that: it doesn't always hit scum, sure, but it'll make a later lynch more likely to hit scum and bring the town closer to winning if done properly.

yeah nacho-gemini are scum together.

Is your scumread predicated entirely on me voting your predecessor? Because if so, that's incredibly disappointing.

What have you done that is worth sheeping you for?

I've used good logic and good intentions to reach where I am today. What kind of question is this?

Why does this make him scum? Does town have to be revolutionary to be town?

That particular paragraph was a direct response to Salamence claiming that he moved the game forward and did a bunch of protown shit. The lack of interest and bullshit filler posts made Salamence more likely to be scum because scum are more likely to "post just to post" because their win condition requires no searching, no prodding, no nothing: it just requires not dying.
That

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...

Vote: PeregrineV

[Nachomamma8]

also iecerint is an acceptable lynch

[Nachomamma8]

hi nacho i'm just gonna steal this top from you

content?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.

Your response to his catchup doesn't really give me the impression you liked it really

what do you like about it in particular that has you restance your read on the slot?

I didn't like the catchup because I didn't like the points he made and the shot if true pretty much makes me want to strangle him.
I did like the catchup because it seems like ToastyTown to a T.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Iecerint

[Nachomamma8]

In other news, I've decided to ignore Iecrint unless he explains what troubles him so much about my slot.

i think he's just lazy scum tunneling personally.
meaning it's against your win condition to ignore him!

[Nachomamma8]

6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling

Only real reason I've heard for other people calling Elyse being town was her lack of direction - what has she done so far that gives you a townread?

[Nachomamma8]

I think I'm happiest that this has been a concern for every replacement that's come in so far.

[Nachomamma8]

You had Iecerint and PV as leaning town early on. What changed?

I don't remember really having Iecerint as leaning town at any point in the game, tbh.
Peregrine was a wagon I wanted to pursue for a little while for reaction's sake: he became a little less town when WP slot started looking town, though.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm also not really happy with how this day is progressing and stagnating so I'm going to do a reread and make a hard push and I hope CTD's catchup will be awesome and inspire new life as well!

[Nachomamma8]

WHY CAN'T OTHER PEOPLE POST AND BE ENGAGED

[Nachomamma8]

OK, I think Peregrine is basically a bad vote because his normal scum MO is lurk and stay under the radar and he's been putting himself out there in a way that isn't his usual scumgame. I am being partially lazy with the case on him because I don't think anything valid has been brought up against him thus far (will read back after saying such a poignant statement) and so I'd rather yell at people when they show up in thread, but this wagon sucks and I'd rather get something going against scum (like Iecerint, who objectively has the worst ISO out of any player in the game).

[Nachomamma8]

Youre not someone Id expect to "LOLSHEEP" as town

It didn't seem like a serious attempt to lynch to me, and reaction pushes are something Peregrine does pretty normally.

PV is votehopping.

Squirm baby squirm

In what universe is votehopping scummy? He's not votehopping between wagons in a way that betrays clear scum intent, so this point is bad.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm voting you for more than gut. I haven't liked any of your posts, really.

I just read your posts and I don't really know why you're voting him other than gut tbf.
If you're voting him for gut that's cool and all but can we please vote Iecerint instead?

[Nachomamma8]

Peregrine I have no read on.

I'm sorry but how do you have a townvote on Iecerint?
There might be something incredibly large I've been reading in his posting because everytime I open his ISO I just want to string him up and be done with it, tbh

[Nachomamma8]

aronis vote is fine but it could be better if he was voting somewhere else

[Nachomamma8]

WHY CAN'T OTHER PEOPLE POST AND BE ENGAGED

we're all probably waiting for something to happen. Like I check the game and the only thing legit is Elyse asking people why they have trouble townreading her...

Then let's start compromising instead of just sitting around waiting for something to happen. I have a townread on Salamence. Do you have a townread on Iecerint?

[Nachomamma8]

Well to be more clear, I

had

a townread on Salamence but that's dissipated somewhat and thus wouldn't cry buckets of tears if he died.

[Nachomamma8]

aronis vote is fine but it could be better if he was voting somewhere else

Where do you think it could be best served?

Iecerint if you don't like the Peregrine wagon.

[Nachomamma8]

Salamence*

[Nachomamma8]

As in vote Iecerint if you don't like the Salamence wagon***********

But I think any other votes at this stage are dumb and it depresses me that I called out the Peregrine wagon for being a bad wagon and the only person who so much as blinks is Aronis.

[Nachomamma8]

Aronis jumping on PeregrineV and then jumping off to wait for CTD to post doesn't make me particularly happy.

Why not?

[Nachomamma8]

It seems the scum motivation you're worried about is Aronis jumping on PeregrineV wagon to mislynch him then jumping off when it stagnates and then not having anywhere for it to go, but it seems it's a likelier scum move for Aronis to just stay on Peregrine (a majority haven't expressed Peregrine = town or Peregrine = bad vote sentiments, just me). I also don't see how he couldn't come in, vote Peregrine, then feel worse about it later as town.

[Nachomamma8]

Iecerint (I'll try to spell your name correctly from here on out) was a townread for me mostly for 41 (if I remember correctly).

Why was that post town to you?

[Nachomamma8]

I am willing to compromise on Iecerint, I suppose.

Nacho, I do agree that PerV's scum meta is to lay low, but I don't really think he's put himself out there as much as you say he is.

I do agree that he's put himself out less than he normally does as town.
But I can't help but think part of the reason he's doing so less than normal is because of the slow pace of the game.
Him not putting himself out to the degree I'd like is also the reason he's leaning town as opposed to reading town.

I would be a pretty happy camper if you voted Iec!

[Nachomamma8]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

[Nachomamma8]

Then sheep a townread!

[Nachomamma8]

I think you're being deliberately opaque, Iecerint. Xayzeck and I effectively asked Elyse the same question; the only difference of note is that I was more explicit. You are playing favorites by giving Xayzeck a free pass for scummy behavior that I am supposedly committing.

FoS: Iecerint

Why not upgrade this into something that matters? Do you think Elyse will get lynched today?

I'm questioning whether

ANYBODY

will get lynched today at this rate. I'm willing to give Iecerint the rope for his behavior but changing my vote right now simply changes who's tied for the most votes. Convince me that Elyse is town and I'll switch.

I'm unhappy selling you on Elyse-town because I am not completely sold on Elyse-town.
I'm much happier writing up a case on Iecerint.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote; Vote: Witness Protection

Xayzeck is town.

I have been operating under the assumption that Juls's daykill is false, though I had already noticed the "fortunate" event. I do not think Juls would use an actual daykill that poorly. If it does end up being real, I suppose it increases the chance that she is scum, since her having the daykill is just random and has no balance considerations, but scum need an excuse to use the daykill in a hard-to-scrutinize way, but I can understand my first post being a way to justify that (e.g., because overexplained RVS votes are scummy, but in my case I think about FFT whenever I see Zodiac stuff so it's a unique situation). So in other words there is at least some way to account for it if she's scum maybe.

I was going to say that Elyse was unnatural for disliking my "reaction," but then also voting for Xayzeck for voting me subsequent to it, but I realize while in the process of re-quoting her that it was Xayzeck that she thought was unnatural, so nevermind there.

I find the argument Iecerint sets up here strange. He says that scum-Juls needs an excuse to use the daykill in a "hard to scrutinize way" and maybe his first post being a little awkward is a reason for that, which I find a strange argument to use because shooting someone after they've posted one time isn't "hard to scrutinize" at all and would likely be treated the same way as someone who shot someone randomly out of the gate before any posts. I think that this awkwardness came out as a result of Iecerint not sure how to react to the probably fake daykill: I admit this point in particular is not very strong because I only expect town!Iecerint to behave differently to something like this because of a few small data points and a lot of extrapolations but this argument seems to lack both emotion and logic which is strange for Iec.

Additionally, I feel his reasons for sticking on the WP wagon are worse than Elyse's not having any reads: he originally voted the wagon because WP voted Xay in the RVS and it's stayed there for that reason the entire day. I feel if Iec was town and he had a read strong enough to encourage him to pursue it for the entire day he would be much more invested in developing and explaining it, but he's shown no inclination towards anything of the sort here.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Salamence

Good luck Toasty! Let us know how it goes!

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you voting me?

Why are you voting Peregrine?

I'd be infinitely happier if you would substantiate your Elyse case

Because I think I asked you a really long time ago but you never replied.

I don't believe than a case on Elyse town is beneficial to gamestate which is why I'm not providing it. You can probably piece together that my case is based more on townvibes instead of a strong townread which is why I've said that I'm uncomfortable defending it.

I don't like this post by Iecerint.

Where did this come up? Why is there scum motivation to it?

I suppose there is a reason you think Iec is scum....

Yes, I provided a case on him a page back or so.

[Nachomamma8]

Link.

[Nachomamma8]

I basically said that it was probably a fake daykill, but Juls was scum if it somehow wasn't a fake daykill.

It was the "why" that bothered me.

Do you mind using your vote in a more productive way? The tone of the game has changed pretty harshly from "sitting on our asses as we form reads at a glacial pace" to "lynching" and I'm sure there's someone that you find at least a bit scummy (Elyse?).

[Nachomamma8]

The why is that town Juls would never daykill me on page 1 because she is not an idiot. It's not rocket science.

This is what would make sense and sounds much more honest than what you said at first.

[Nachomamma8]

Toasty has done nothing to change my opinion about his slot and is not a non-player, so I see no reason to change my vote.

You don't think the game has been stagnating lately?

[Nachomamma8]

Limited Access until Monday

sorry for no V/LA earlier, wasn't expecting work to kick my ass quite so hard

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Salamence

[Nachomamma8]

thank god, for a minute there i thought we weren't gonna lynch scum today

[Nachomamma8]

About dayvig speculation: I love the dayvig, it's my favorite role in all of mafia. That's why I asked who had my dayvig in my RVS. I then said the dayvig should out on PG 2, for the sake of town controlling the shot, something that has been mentioned by other players as well. The argument against this was "mafia controls the shot if Dayvig outs." How so? There are more townies than mafia. If town holds the shot, we play normal and shoot the person we want to lynch, then get another lynch. Even if mafia disagree on our shot target and try to manipulate the shot, they are the minority. If 8-9 players want to shoot player A and 4-5 players want to shoot player B, A dies regardless of the number of scum on the other wagon to shoot. So i don't see the problem. If mafia holds the shot and refuses to shoot the player the majority wants, chances are the dayvig is scum defending a scumbuddy or WIFOM. We lynch the dayvig if they refuse. How is this scummy? Hell, STD stated the same thing I did about the dayvig.

Town holding dayvig doesn't post shit like this.
Scum hiding dayvig for endgame does.

In addition, why did he shoot Elyse? The two people he was pushing hardest for the few moments he was around were: Xayzeck and PV. Do I think he'd give up the chance to take out a top suspect over Elyse who I'm pretty sure he never mentioned at all? No.

[Nachomamma8]

I can technically understand the desire to hold the shot from a cop perspective, but the extent of the subterfuge is hard to swallow.

And why the fuck didn't he just out if he was a cop? If he was a cop, he would know the wagon would come off him and he wouldn't be lynched and could thus still keep the dayvig hidden. As scum, there's a chance he gets counterclaimed, dies immediately, and loses his shot.

[Nachomamma8]

I have not evaluated the extent to which that is valid, but if it is, I figure it may implicate one of them given a scumflip, especially since Elyse had been under a bit of scrutiny already. It could also imply that Elyse had an uncommon-but-accurate read.

Pedit: It => PV/Xayzeck having more Salamence scrutiny than Elyse. I doubt Nacho would make it up tho so.

That was my thought as well, and it seems like a glaring neon sign points to PV over Xayzeck but that might just be me.

[Nachomamma8]

I am now questioning my earlier Iecerint scum-read. #561 does not look like scum bussing a buddy in trouble to me as it introduces new information to the game. That's town effort.

I agree with this.

[Nachomamma8]

To me this is a clearly a legitimate attempt to get PV lynched.

1) Salamence loves bussing.
2) ??? this is a horrible reason to clear someone. I can post many posts of me trying to get scumbuddies lynched much, much more aggressively as scum if you'd like.

It might just be PV and Dryfit.

I think Dry-Fit's just being a little naive.

Vote: PeregrineV

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why is Aronis town?

Dry-fit needs to address the issues I had with his Salamance push, since the scum flip doesn't change how I feel about them. I'm miffed that he hasn't addressed them already, given the additional 3 days we got yesterday.

Is there a case against PV other than "Salamance loves bussing"?

Still have bad feelings about Aronis, but I'm hesitant to go back to that well after the way D1 played out.

Clearly I should say more, but I have another game I desperately need to catch up on, so it'll have to wait.

vote: Dry-fit

So I'm willing to discuss Aronis read when I get to a computer but I'm also pretty disappointed by your dry fit read.

[Nachomamma8]

Starting to look for a Nacho replacement; CTD has a few hours left. Will suspend the deadline if necessary.

I thought I still had a couple of hours

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: CTD

[Nachomamma8]

I think Peregribe is town!

[Nachomamma8]

Yep.
I switched to Salamence because I was trying to get a lynch. I generally have no problem voting with scumreads.

[Nachomamma8]

First of all, with regards to Aronis, I've played with him a few times and I've never found him to be a player that seems extremely driven or classically protown. So points of "he hasn't done anything townie" or "he hasn't explained his reasoning" are generally horrible and I honestly don't care for them even a little bit. I see Aronis taking a the strong Salamence position and then completely backing down even while assuming he was still scum (otherwise the "looking at elyse/xay has shown me xay is scummy" doesn't really make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

So, Juls, did you get a reaction you were looking for with that, or are you still looking?

It didn't go long enough; I don't think to get anything solid. But it was pretty obvious I was faking. So I'm not the dayvig which is super obvious now.

I think it was more like flirting.

You wish! :p

Anywho...I agree with Nachomamma. If the day vig does not occur today then we must assume scum owns it. In fact, I suggest we put someone at L-1 and then force everyone to do exactly what I did

Kill: Soinso

to flush it out before the end of the day. You don't have to be swayed by "town" but you gotta shoot. Agreed? Good.

Also, I am not liking Burn and stranger coug at the moment. I'm not crazy about SC's theories regarding the dayvig but that's not really why I am not liking him. It's more that I feel like he just said what "felt" townie but wasn't really townie. Burn agreeing throws me off though cause that seemed more scummy the actual theories that SC was suggesting. I doubt they are scum together.

Vote: Burn

I liked Juls's approach more than I liked anyone else's approach to the dayvig, though. I think that Juls aggressively pushing to force the dayvig to out was pretty fucking townie in and of itself, and I can't really see a way for scum to wiggle out of the plan (was going to wait until today to implement it because it would have better us confirmed confirmed scum).

[Nachomamma8]

I would like to challenge her on her "feels townie but isn't townie" comment because I'm with her on StrangerCoug feeling townie but don't understand how that suddenly translates to him not being townie.

When I initially read it, I felt like it wasn't sincere feeling. Like it was more of a "meh, this is what I would say if I were town". But when burn piggybacked it that seemed far more scummy. As in "this townie is making the argument I want so I will just agree with him and he will get blamed if it blows up". So I feel pretty good that they aren't scumbuddies together and burn is the more likely of the two to be scum in my opinion. These aren't solid reads, they are page 5 reads. They have every opportunity to change them but so far burn hasn't done anything to make me feel different and I don't think SC has posted since (?). So I'm good.

As for Salamence, he is firmly planted in neutral land for me at the moment. Probably not opposed to lynching him if need be.

I also felt that her attack on strangercoug came across as pretty fucking town because it seemed honest: this didn't seem like a line of attack scum would come up with because it's not a surface attack in the least bit and tonally it just seemed honest. There's also her next post which I will pull up in a minute, can't really copy and paste on mobile without going through the struggle:

[Nachomamma8]

I'm a little Leary of how fast salamence's wagon grew. Town don't typically come together that easily on day 1. It could be a bus sure, but the speed is troublesome for me. I've only skimmed since my last post. I have fantasy football today but will read up tomorrow.

I liked this quote because 1) it seems like something that scum would be weary of saying if they weren't properly caught up and hadn't been in thread in a while (extremely risky to stick your neck out for a scumbuddy if you don't have the towncred to back it up), And secondly the way salamence took this reasoning and ran with it and appealed to me to stop his wagon doesn't at all seem like a scumbuddy interaction to me: it seems like salamence saw a townie giving a reason to feel uncomfortable about his wagon and ran with it.

[Nachomamma8]

My read on Salamence originally deteriorated because my entire scumread was based on him doing absolutely nothing scumread and then he actually started doing things that weren't absolutely horrible. Then Toasty came in and was town, meaning I got a bit skeptical of the Witness Protection wagon who looked mostly town except for Peregrine who I had a townread on based entirely on gut. Then, I pushed Iecerint for a while and that didn't gain shit for traction and then Gemini moved to Salamence who was my number 2 choice at the time, so I followed: I think that Peregrine picking up on the vote moves is a good sign because it's not absolute bullshit and it's not "he's not posting" and is another sign of Peregrine sticking his neck out that I talked about earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

:

thank god, for a minute there i thought we weren't gonna lynch scum today

It's a problematic post either way because it's the kind of smug and smart-ass I associate with scum play, but if he can't back it up with a well reasoned Aronis town read, I'd consider it strongly indicative of Nacho-scum. It's a week later now and he still hasn't backed it up, so yeah.

At the end of the day, I didn't really like the wagon and I didn't really have a strong scumread. It didn't feel like the day was trending towards a scum lynch, it felt like the day was trending towards a lazy lynch that usually ends up on town. When Salamence took his shot when it was inconsistent with his shit earlier in the thread, it seemed pretty obvious that he was scum and he was going to get lynched so I expressed that sentiment. I think the "oh he hasn't expressed an Aronis read" bit is a bad attack: I almost was replaced, you almost were replaced, that means we haven't been around that much lately and thus the reason I haven't been talking about Aronis reads is probably because I haven't had time to talk about it: attributing it to me not having an Aronis read is just taking advantage of my absence.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know.
I don't feel particularly confident in you-scum in the first place, honestly. What happened to us discussing yours and my Aronis read?

[Nachomamma8]

holy fuck i fucked that grammar up
oh well!

[Nachomamma8]

CTD, your partner is Xayzeck.

[Nachomamma8]

I think scum is between nacho/CTD/Iecerint. I don't really know where to start though.

I don't know why SC was killed either.

Start with CTD. Why do you think that Xayzeck is town again? I might be able to clear up some misconceptions since its a view that I've held for some time as well.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho-

You have a reason for the CTD vote?

I have a reason for everything that I do, Peregrine. The main reason is because I think he is scum. Other reasons will come with time.

[Nachomamma8]

Preemptive no this won't be all I plan on contributing today but contributions will come in small chunks. Each small chunk will come with a good bit of information like Xayzeck is the other scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Nacho

I've seen town Nacho fight like a maniac to avoid what he thought was a town lynch in more than one game. It involved a lot of screaming, pushing and browbeating. Here he didn't even bother to present a viable alternative wagon. I understand time constrains and being disenfranchised from a game, but it's not like he wasn't around at the critical time. I find it incredibly unlikely that town Nacho would post the town case he posted for Aronis and then just leave it at that so close to deadline.

I have other reasons to vote him over Dry-fit, but it requires some rereading and I don't have the time right now.

Time constraints are time constraints, and having the ability to fight a lynch doesn't manifest itself every time I'm in danger, having the ability to save a town read doesn't mean it happens every time they are in danger.