Micro 381 - 999 Mafia (Nonary Game Complete)

[xRECKONERx]

it's bad because it's on you, yes, we know reck

No, because there aren't actual reasons there:
"Agree with Parama on Reck's attitude with Quilford..." So, he agrees that what I said is basically correct? Because Parama agreed that Quil's ragequit was really town (the only disagreement was what it meant retroactively).

"Don't like his stance on me"... meaning the stance where I want him to contribute and not be lynched because of his predecessor's activity levels? There's actually legitimately nothing to "not like" about that stance. The only one who had a point about "not liking" that stance was Quilford, and that was because he thought me/Gamma were scum

together

.

"Don't like his side thing about me and Parama...tell incorrect for past 5 years...blah blah blah"... no clue what this is even referencing, I just searched both my ISO and Parama's ISO and have no idea what this means.

Gamma's tone is scummy, as well. It's very vague and wishy-washy, unwilling to commit to any hard reasons for things. Look at Gamma's points so far:

- His first real post features a bulky portion in which he says "Akane felt gutscum but I don't actually believe my gut and I'm only posting this so people can read me better."

- "Everyone feels not particularly scummy"..."Quil looks the least town so far"...except, this is the same post where he implies I'm scum and the claim is the only thing saving me.

- "

Gut

things with Grib are

mostly

tone...

I think

"

- "I

might

have to change my mind. But pretend I didn't just say that."

- "in the event of my lynch and <obligatory statement that says i'm flipping town that has no actual bearing on my alignment in this game whatsoever> "... This just reeks of Gamma's typical cheekiness. Lampshade the shit out of it by drawing attention to it instead of actually making a statement.

- "Did read over nm a

little

more and

dont think

I want him to be the lynch."


Everything Gamma is posting is very noncommittal. He's phrasing it in a run-on sentence fashion so it seems very "stream of consciousness" and allows him to hide his lack of commitment and logical incongruities behind style points.

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: Gammagooey

[xRECKONERx]

For a quick read through, here is how Gamma posts when he's town in my experience:

also

this is dumb

and you should feel bad for saying it given that balto invitational was a game that existed and was generally depressing for people after they became dead

Matter of factly.

well ignoring the obvious lies it's true that i can't read you that well

so what else am i gonna with a minor scum read on you aside from poke at you and be annoying and see if you murder me for it
it's clearly the best plan

Laying defined reads/facts out on the table.

i uh

would kind of rather do this than vote reck right now?

Vote:Nuwen

feel free to convince me otherwise if you're super confident about stuff but

nuwen seems significantly sketchier than normal this game to me

Still similar syntax, but the content is much more direct and assertive.

I won't keep going because I'm bored and also I don't think anyone will read this anyway. But the content in Gamma's post is weak, noncommittal, and inconsistent.

[Akane Kurashiki]

I read it, Reck, and alignments aside for a moment, I think you should make more posts like that. It had logic and reasons and other good stuff that isn't just "I don't care about this game, let me continue to take up a slot in it anyway." Whoo.

But I'm having that problem right now where I read one guy and go "hey that post makes sense!" and then someone else posts something completely different and I go "hey, that guy also makes sense!" so I need some time to sort out what my actual thoughts are and what's just me wanting to sheep everything that isn't obvious crazytalk. (Does anyone else ever do this or is it just me? ._.)

[Akane Kurashiki]

I'll be home in about 2 hours to post reads etc and lay down a vote.

Also this was a bucket of lies and falsehoods but I can't say I'm really surprised

[Akane Kurashiki]

VOTE: The Bulge

Some extra motivation to stop being a lying liarface.

@Mod: VC please

[The Bulge]

ARUGHAUDG I'M A LYING LIARFACE SORRY

Anyway, Not_Mafia is scum.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

(L-1?)

Early Day 1 is cluttered with general theory talk, IC-ing the newbies, vague comments, unoriginal content/common knowledge, and questions without followup. Basically all the tells of scum trying to look useful without actually affecting the state of the game.

Spoiler: Here's some of that good stuff

Colour Codes are Fun

Theory

IC

Vague

Unoriginal/Common Knowledge

Where is the followup/point?

Parama's out of nowhere aggression seems odd aswell

,

not sure if it's just a playstyle thing

"50+ posts prior which included a lot of theory babble that had largely been resolved.

Oh come on. It's totally possible to glean useful things from "theory babble," so don't just dismiss it. You can get reads based on how someone entirely posts about theory, or actually puts new ideas out and then some other good non-theory content, etc.

I got a couple of townreads from it, just not ones I feel the need in sharing at this point

And why the callout for Thirty Four's unvote and not Flame's? Both seemed pretty appeasing

If that's enough to vote them, I can do that, of course.

You should pretty much always be using your vote, this is the kind of thing that usually gets ironed out in the newbie queue.

@ Parama: This mostly comes down to personality and being afraid of playing badly.

You're going to play less efectively and get more scumreads the more the more self conscious you play

I agree that putting Flames at L-1 was silly. I don't like Parama being wanting to leave him there.

@ Parama: Why were you fine with putting Flames at L-1 on the second page over one post?

Do you think L-1 is inherently bad?

P-Edit: I was ninja'd on a lot of this after stepping away from my computer for a bit

You haven't answered my question. What's good about putting someone at L-1 on the second page over one post?
And I said why I didn't like it in my last post.

Some people hate L-1 minus early, personally I have no problem with it as long as it's clearly L-1 as I think RVS wagons and L-1 are good for pressure and that they tend to come from town and tend to come from town cos everyone knows how much attention gets put on thme for it and the inevitable discussion about derphammers that comes up every time.

After him acknowledging the misunderstanding with Bins way too late when it really should have been obvious and putting Flames at L-2 without a good reason (and without explaining his reason when I asked for it), I think Parama is pushing for easy mislynches.

And voting someone doesn't necessarily mean intent to lynch, sometimes it's just to help a read, and someone being wagoned doesn't make you or anyone else a bad player or a liability.

inexperience doesn't automatically make you town. newbie-town and newbie-scum still both make newbie mistakes. if you're town you shouldn't care how you look, you worry about the people you think are scum.

This is great in theory but fails often in practice in regards to newbies, some people are just going to get emotional and prioritise staying in the game for their few games. This is the same low-info lynch on a newb town I've seen many times.

Yeah, I think Parama is fine now. I'm trying to calm down. I'm not sure if I can. You might have to look for a replacement.

Sometimes it's better to step away from a game for a bit if you're getting stressed out. This is a game first and foremost, it's meant to be enjoyable.

gut read, but his posts just seem of

Man it's a good thing we're not like way past the point where having "gut reads" and posts seeming "off" are acceptable justifications for reads, right

Gut reads exist, what's the big issue with this?

Jumps on Jackel quickly saying "Did you only vote me because you disliked my suggestion on how to use the doors? How did that make me vote worthy?" as if there were any worthier reasons to vote anyone 22 posts in.

oh so we should just never leave rvs or try to ask ppl about their reads right? ok ty glad to know youre functionally retarded

This is definitely what he meant

(Just straight-up fluff)

Quilford's case read to me like the type of case someone subbing in makes, considering this...

Sorry, had to do a bit of study over the weekend.

I think it's relatively applicable

Mines not set in stone or based on being inclined to talk to anyone in particular, I put me and Reck in separate rooms and then added the other people in one by one based on a combination of my townreads and who I think are least likely to be lynched.

We should be aiming to protect the towniest towns obviously but we also don't want to advertise to scum who they should be killing as we don't know yet if their kills a restricted to a room or if they have x-shot strongman kinda things where they can kill across rooms or a myriad of other possibilities where scum could wifom the shit out of NKs and all we end up actually doing is telling scum who to kill. Flavour wise kills within rooms only makes the most sense (I'm guessing, I've only played Virtue's Last Reward) but I feel like the game could be breakable like that as well, so I'm not sold.

I'm curious though; you have me in your top 3 scumreads then? Even though a quick scan of your ISO shows exactly one comment that could even possibly be interpreted as an indication of suspicion and only says "odd" at worst.

I'm PoEing this game hard, you're at an intersection of not being in my top townreads and being a potential lynch candidate but I could see putting you in over 1 or 2 people I have in a room at the moment.

THE VAGUENESS HURTS

If Reck isn't confirmed town tomorrow we can lynch him then, trying to drive a wagon on him today is silly but I'm not going to bend over backwards trying to create some sort of foolproof plan for him with his attitude to/in the game so far.

There's a lot more in later ISO, but that should be enough to get my point across.

I don't know how to read Reck because the passive-aggressiveness (just look at that fucking smile) could very well be fake rage. I don't think I've ever played a game with you before, reck, but you strike me as a kuribo-esque player (ie, rips your face off in a 1v1) but I know that players like that are very good at faking their town-rage. I'll try to figure you out tomorrow but for now I'm standing on a Not_Mafia lynch.

[xRECKONERx]

reck, but you strike me as a kuribo-esque player

[The Bulge]

reck, but you strike me as a kuribo-esque player

Knew you'd like that

read: I'm scared to make you mad

[Gammagooey]

have an annoying tedious response to reck that basically encapsulates why i just respond to questions with 'lol,reasons' instead of actually going into all these details about things that aren't going to help anyone scumhunt anything and is basically just to tell reck why he's wrong about things

-parama and me thing is you going on the tangeant of me and parama possibly being scum together because he commented on jackal claiming when you and quil were trying the gambit, because i seriously can't think of a time ever that it's been an correct tell in a non-newbie game on the site

-akane being gutscum section was detailed in that way because i knew EXACTLY why I was gut scumreading her and knew that it was a stupid reason that doesn't actually make her any more likely to be scum, which is why i bothered going into that much detail on it to explain that

-you already made an actual opinion on me specifically and not jackal when i made that post about your stance on me so assuming that i'm talking about your posts before i actually did anything in-game is straight up retarded

-section on me being wishy-washy is fine for you to think, i am a little more noncommittal than usual since I still haven't actually read over the entire thread and don't have any reads i'm particularly confident about aside from bins and akane but i'd probably say a few similar things even if that weren't the case

-you know probably better than anyone except mayyybe pie that me being cheeky is a thing that i do and not a scum tell

-as is stream of consciousness style posts (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p5727090)

and that if you replaced the word 'boring' here with dumb you'd basically get extraordinarily similar sentences about the you+quilford mess instead of balto

and now that that's taken entirely too long let me actually read more of the game at 3am because i am bad at time management.

[xRECKONERx]

You were literally in the game with me where a replacement didn't know his predecessor had claimed and fucked it up THEREFORE WINNING US THE GAME.

[xRECKONERx]

Reckoning III. Hello. That's literally from this year.

[Not_Mafia]

Spoiler: Response to Bulge

Colour Codes are Fun

Theory

IC

Vague

Unoriginal/Common Knowledge

Where is the followup/point?

Parama's out of nowhere aggression seems odd aswell

,

not sure if it's just a playstyle thing

The first part I can understand. How is saying someone's behaviour is out of place but it could be playstyle vague?

I got a couple of townreads from it, just not ones I feel the need in sharing at this point

Deliberately vague, for reasons that you literally quoted in this very same post

And why the callout for Thirty Four's unvote and not Flame's? Both seemed pretty appeasing

My point was she called out one person and not the other when they did the same thing, I didn't hate her explanation and didn't really have anything to question farther. This followup thing is something I keep getting scumread for recently, I can link if you wish.

Me advising 34, too impatient to quote strip properly

I always advise newbs, regardless of alignment

inexperience doesn't automatically make you town. newbie-town and newbie-scum still both make newbie mistakes. if you're town you shouldn't care how you look, you worry about the people you think are scum.

This is great in theory but fails often in practice in regards to newbies, some people are just going to get emotional and prioritise staying in the game for their few games. This is the same low-info lynch on a newb town I've seen many times.

Except this is game relevant "theory" and actually talking about a read I have and trying to derail a bad wagon

Jumps on Jackel quickly saying "Did you only vote me because you disliked my suggestion on how to use the doors? How did that make me vote worthy?" as if there were any worthier reasons to vote anyone 22 posts in.

oh so we should just never leave rvs or try to ask ppl about their reads right? ok ty glad to know youre functionally retarded

This is definitely what he meant

(Just straight-up fluff)

No it isn't, I'm pointing out his misrepresentation of Quilford's argument

Quilford's case read to me like the type of case someone subbing in makes, considering this...

Sorry, had to do a bit of study over the weekend.

I think it's relatively applicable

This is completely taken out of context and is in response to 172

We should be aiming to protect the towniest towns obviously but we also don't want to advertise to scum who they should be killing as we don't know yet if their kills a restricted to a room or if they have x-shot strongman kinda things where they can kill across rooms or a myriad of other possibilities where scum could wifom the shit out of NKs and all we end up actually doing is telling scum who to kill. Flavour wise kills within rooms only makes the most sense (I'm guessing, I've only played Virtue's Last Reward) but I feel like the game could be breakable like that as well, so I'm not sold.

Redundant and common knowledge yet just after this we had someone do the exact thing this was warning against

I'm curious though; you have me in your top 3 scumreads then? Even though a quick scan of your ISO shows exactly one comment that could even possibly be interpreted as an indication of suspicion and only says "odd" at worst.

I'm PoEing this game hard, you're at an intersection of not being in my top townreads and being a potential lynch candidate but I could see putting you in over 1 or 2 people I have in a room at the moment.

THE VAGUENESS HURTS

Again, deliberately vague, you quoted why yourself just above this, if you have a problem with the reasons then attack that

If Reck isn't confirmed town tomorrow we can lynch him then, trying to drive a wagon on him today is silly but I'm not going to bend over backwards trying to create some sort of foolproof plan for him with his attitude to/in the game so far.

There was still people driving a wagon on him even though he was confirmable, so it obviously wasn't "common knowledge"

A lot of what you quoted is not taking any sort of context in to account about what was happening. Or is just hyperbole and/or a lie. I can go through any ISO in any game and colour code it with buzzwords with literally 0 explanation. This is objectively not a case.

I don't know how to read Reck because the passive-aggressiveness (just look at that fucking smile) could very well be fake rage. I don't think I've ever played a game with you before, reck, but you strike me as a kuribo-esque player (ie, rips your face off in a 1v1) but I know that players like that are very good at faking their town-rage.

I'm of the opinion that most rage is fake, and non-alignment indicative. Why was this, of everything, the most pertinent thing about Reck or the game that you found necessary to add on to a post about me?

As a side note, please space quotes when you do quote walls like that in the future as it so people can distinguish between a new set of quotes and nested quotes, it makes it a lot easier to respond in a decent format.

[Parama]

see, reck, if you had been posting stuff like that all game, maybe you wouldn't need a role to confirm you as town (or you prob already would be if you're actually town)
the meta post is irrelevant but I p. much agree with your thoughts on Gamma. now if you'd have, like, done that before I yelled at you, we could all be friends

re: Bulge-post - if you can generalize everything into 5 categories then I'm going to deconstruct them all
theory posts can be used as an argument for or against a lynch, one's personal beliefs come in to play in scumhunting
ICing is always good because it separates the stupid from the scummy, he's not the only one who's been doing it
half the bloody game has been vague all game long, but it's not an invalid point
parroting is fine
I legitimately don't even understand what you take issue to re: red ones
fluff exists in multiple players' iso's as well also, not a scumtell. it's fluff in your own case to point out fluff, even.
building your entire case on the first 11 pages of the thread is also ignoring the 35 pages that follow, it doesn't make anything invalid but it doesn't make it as relevant as analyzing more recent posts or his play as a whole. why no comment on posts made under pressure?

basically tho

A lot of what you quoted is not taking any sort of context in to account about what was happening. Or is just hyperbole and/or a lie. I can go through any ISO in any game and colour code it with buzzwords with literally 0 explanation. This is objectively not a case.

is accurate, regardless of either of your alignments.

[Gammagooey]

no reck, the tell i'm talking about is when

A PERSON blatantly obviously coaches in-thread their scumbuddy in regards to a claim. fucking up the claim itself is not what i'm talking about.

[Gammagooey]

also parama what parts of his posts do you actually like

because the wishy washy and tone based stuff is a pretty reasonable thing coming from reck but like 2/3rds of that post is him just being completely wrong about what he thinks i'm talking about

[Gammagooey]

half is probably more accurate than 2/3rds but you know what i mean

[The Bulge]

Basically all the tells of scum trying to look useful without actually affecting the state of the game.

This is important.

The post was not meant to be taken quote-by-quote, but as a whole just to demonstrate this point. Each post on its own is not inherently bad, but it takes up the majority of his early-game ISO.

Theory posting - especially generalized theory - is good in practice but does not advance the game and is not scumhunting.

ICing is the best example of trying to look useful.

Vague posts are extremely non-committal and give the illusion of scumhunting behind the scenes when really he can make up any explanation he wants when it comes to it.

Parroting isn't always bad. I don't expect anything important to only be said once. But the length of the posts show again that he's trying to appear helpful without actually contributing anything.

Questions without followups plus the occasional empty read has basically the same reasoning as vagueness (ie, noncommittal, nothing set in stone, etc) plus no solid effort to scumhunt.

[xRECKONERx]

There is no reason for Parama to be acting this way. Town have fluid reads, scum do not.

[Parama]

@gamma: more the vagueness and noncommittal stuff
@bulge: theory influences scumhunting, which is the point I'm making. the only thing that directly advances the game are votes anyways. ICing can indirectly advance the game.
@reck: what specifically are you referencing, though?

[Zero the Ninth]

LYNCH VOTE

Bins (0) -
Akane Kurashiki (0) -
The Bulge (2) - Not_Mafia, Akane Kurashiki
Parama (0) -
Not_Mafia (3) - Parama, Bins, The Bulge
xRECKONERx (1) - Gammagooey
Grib (0) -
Gammagooey (2) - Grib, xRECKONERx

Not Voting -

DOOR VOTE

Bins - [Akane Kurashiki, Parama, xRECKONERx - 5], [Bins, The Bulge, Gammagooey - 4]
Akane Kurashiki - [Akane Kurashiki, Parama, xRECKONERx - 5], [Bins, The Bulge, Gammagooey - 4]
The Bulge -
Parama - [Akane Kurashiki, Parama, xRECKONERx - 5], [Bins, The Bulge, Gammagooey - 4]
Not_Mafia - [Bins, The Bulge, Not_Mafia - 1], [Akane Kurashiki, Parama, xRECKONERx - 5]
xRECKONERx - [Akane Kurashiki, The Bulge, Not_Mafia - 2], [Bins, Parama, xRECKONERx - 4]
Grib -
Gammagooey -

Current Plurality - [Akane Kurashiki, Parama, xRECKONERx - 5], [Bins, The Bulge, Gammagooey - 4]
Unavailable Doors - [7], [8]

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch (4 to No Lynch). Deadline will be Tuesday, September 9th at 12:30 AM Eastern.

[xRECKONERx]

@reck: what specifically are you referencing, though?

I'm talking about the fact that you have spent a couple of posts remarking on how my current contribution levels/content are good things and if ONLY I had done that earlier instead of trolling then you'd think I'm town!

I don't get it. Why does that matter? Reads can evolve, change over time. It's even commonplace for me not to do much earlier in the game then act seriously later in the game.

It reads to me like you can't genuinely read my recent posts as scummy, but you want to keep me in your pocket as a mislynch for when you or your buddy or whoever blocks me again tonight.

[Parama]

or that making a few good posts does not redeem a day and a half of absolutely awful play

[Parama]

I tend to play my games in global scope while you seem interested in playing in relative scope, fwiw

[Akane Kurashiki]

Town have fluid reads, scum do not.

Sooooo you're calling yourself scum, then? You've been calling me scum since early day 1 and I've seen nothing that shows you're even considering anything that might make you re-evaluate.

And that's fine in a vacuum, I don't really think it's a tell one way or another, but if you're seriously going to push this as a tell then I'm gonna have to point out that you're calling a kettle black when you're an even blacker pot.