Open 567 - Pick Your POWERRRR!!! - Abandoned

[Saki]

reading later

[Saki]

okay I'm busier than I thought I'll post later

[Saki]

Who the fuck would lynch a d1 Rolecop claim coming from ZZZX

wow

[Saki]

Who the fuck would lynch a d1 Rolecop claim coming from ZZZX

wow

dear lord
he didn't even pick the role himself

[Saki]

and speaking from experience, number theory or rolepick theory will never get you anywhere with this setup

[Saki]

it assumes that people are rational and basically people aren't

[Saki]

Who the fuck would lynch a d1 Rolecop claim coming from ZZZX

wow

dear lord
he didn't even pick the role himself

his predecessor didn't even claim it and he claimed it on his own

whoever the hell is responsible for this lynch is scum

lemme look at that

[Saki]

I have no qualms with Salamance/Gameplay/Toby voting ZZZX because they play like shit regardless of alignment

but Regfan and Siv should've known better

Flubber was voting him before the claim so idc

I'll judge elmo/Anen/Heph later when I'm done being utterly disappointed with this lynch and the fact that my apathy stopped me from preventing it

[Saki]

I mean come on "rolecop = scum so ZZZX dies" is pretty much absurd bullshit if you consider the setup

there are perfectly valid reasons for a townie to pick rolecop, esp as second in pick order

like, depriving scum of the role
and testing claims
and being an actually useful town investigative role because PR brackets are somewhat indicative of alignment
eg. Cop vs 1-Shot Redirector

One is obviously town and the other isn't
You could say that 'well, scum might choose to be cop just to wifom'
and that's utterly stupid because scum can take 1-shot redirector and claim cop and have noone know the difference

[Saki]

as much as I hate using BoP to lynch someone
but it really applies all too obviously here

Regfan and Siv have both played this setup before and know what's going on and

I KNOW THAT FOR A HARD, SOLID FACT

They would not let a ZZZX lynch slide if they were town
Anatole's initial pick was an unorthodox pick, but it wasn't necessarily scum
they

should

know that

besides, their votes were way too opportunistic

VOTE: Regfan

so yeah I'm not really going to look for lynches outside Siv and Regfan until both are dead and flipped

[Saki]

his predecessor didn't even claim it and he claimed it on his own

He didn't "claim it on his own", he was caught having it and had no choice but to confess to it really.

Well that's big fat lie #1.
He doesn't have to listen to you, nor the people that pressured him to claim.
I read your post.
You knew that Venrob chose Universal Backup and didn't get it so you looked for a Universal Backup in somewhere else.
So you knew that one of Elmo/ZZZX had to be Universal Backup.

Hoping and think I've made the right move here because it's very likely one of Elmo/ZZZ is a scum rolecop that we need to sort out.

But
You
Actually
Fucking
Assumed
That a scum rolecop would claim rolecop
because there's obviously another rolecop to confirm that he is indeed a rolecop

dude, what the hell?

AND
There's a) way better scum picks than Rolecop as second pick
and b) no actual fucking reason to reveal to us the information that Venrob went for UB and failed because its just hilariously obvious rolefishing

I mean come on "rolecop = scum so ZZZX dies" is pretty much absurd bullshit if you consider the setup there are perfectly valid reasons for a townie to pick rolecop, esp as second in pick order

1) like, depriving scum of the role 2) and testing claims and being an actually useful town investigative role because PR brackets are somewhat indicative of alignment eg. Cop vs 1-Shot Redirector One is obviously town and the other isn't ou could say that 'well, scum might choose to be cop just to wifom' and that's utterly stupid because scum can take 1-shot redirector and claim cop and have noone know the difference

Taking rolecop as #2 on the draft is something that objectively makes a lot more sense coming from scum and therefore

is

scum motivated and a good indicator of alignment. For 1) If this was the case then taking backup would be the move and given that he claimed rolecop and not backup this reason is automatically eliminated and as for 2) scum generally don't actually fake claim in this, they claim the role they have and yes that means scum don't pick the best role possible for themselves in most cases. Then there's the addition for it to be useful you'd have to have them already claimed, then investigate them and it ends up being a very useless role. Town #2 on the draft has a lot stronger roles they should be taking whereas scum taking rolecop as #2 makes sense.

Taking rolecop as #2 as scum doesn't even FIT optimal scum play
You'd rather take 1-shot redirector to make sure there isn't a town Cop
or roleblocker to make sure there's not a doctor
or NEIGHBORIZER because scum neighborizers are hilariously strong EVEN in an open setup where scum neighborizer is possible
or jailkeeper to prevent trackers/lock down a claimed town pr
or even one of the killing roles over rolecop because there's just so many stronger picks than standard scum rolecop

AND if rolecop pick is scum-motivated because scum play logically, then it's ALSO logical that scum would never actually claim rolecop
WHAT KIND OF SCUM ROLECOP WOULD CLAIM ROLECOP OVER UB WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THE ROLE UB IS POSSIBLE BUT DOESN'T EXIST?
"scum generally don't actually fake claim in this"
SCUM FAKECLAIM 100% ABOUT BEING FUCKING ROLECOP

Rolecop as #2 makes a WHOLE lot more sense objectively coming from TOWN, not EVER scum
because there's just so many more powerful scum roles and universal backup isn't as scary to town like a full cop or a full doctor is
and, rolecop is a useful investigative role to BOTH alignments in this setup
and universal backup is an unreliable role
hell, you could be backup fruit vendor
and that sucks shit

and Anatole realized this
but ZZZX didn't

this is why we have this issue
you, and siv, should be more experienced with the setup and the game itself than ZZZX

As for your whole "Regfan would not have let a ZZZX lynch slide" and "their votes were opportunistic", I

led

the lynch on him and it wasn't just based on rolecop=scum so perhaps actually read the god damn game.

Jesus

you lucked out on rolefishing and caught a live VI so you drove a lynch on him

how is that not god damn fucking opportunistic

[Saki]

Saki, depriving scum of the role still means you can pick backup. There also aren't many claims to test - by the time massclaim happens there's no more nights. And also, "this pair has an obv-town pick and a obv-scum pick, but that pair doesn't." Tbh, I'd probably actually have been less suspicious of him had anatole claimed it, or had zzzx not replaced in.

Why would you be any less suspicious of Anatole over ZZZX if you used the logic "rolecop=scum" to lynch ZZZX
There is no gray area in "rolecop=scum"
There was no gray area about your intentions behind your vote
Why are you saying that there is, now?

[quote="In post 658It's also kindof annoying that zzzx flipped town b/c I wouldn't ever agree with going for rolecop because it's way too slow.[/quote]
define 'slow'

[Saki]

The answer to these is that scum don't play logically.

Regfan's assumption that scum would pick rolecop as second pick is based on the fact that scum play logically (twisted and deluded as his 'logic' for scum is), and his actions pressuring ZZZX/Elmo to claim rolecop/ub/neither is also pretty much based on the same logic.
Therefore saying that scum is illogical means that Regfan's initial pressure for people to claim and their support of it isn't scumhunting, but is something else.
Rolefishing. And you didn't stop him.

I'd have been less suspicious because of your question - why do scum claim rolecop? I'd assumed scum-zzzx just didn't understand the setup so claimed his actual role instead of fakeclaiming. If there was no replacement he'd have to have some sort of understanding of the setup just to pick a role.

Slow is just slow - by what I mean in the case of scum rolecop - it needs to hit a pr, then you need to shoot the pr the next night to actually deal with them. Jailkeeper or roleblocker just stop a pr right away.

I have no idea why Anatole picked Rolecop over other town roles, but it sure as hell makes more sense than Regfan atm

[Saki]

If he refused to claim he'd have been lynched, end of story and if he lied and stated that he didn't have rolecop then it'd be a case of "One of Elmo/ZZZ are scum" which is simple to work out not to mention that #1 picks role choice is obvious (And it's not rolecop) meaning he'd have been lynched.

He'd fucking claim, instead of not claiming

[Saki]

There's serveral reasons why a scum rolecop will claim rolecop over claiming backup with the largest being that backup is test-able, if vigs the first role lynched/dead and backup can't shoot with a vig shot they're confirmed to be scum A) I disagree and B) I revealed it because it made a lot of sense for there to be a scum rolecop above and it's a role that needs to be caught very early on not to mention that Venrob had fucking outted the information himself in several softing posts.

Again read the god damn game.

Rolecop: insta-lynch
Universal Backup: not instalynch. with luck, may survive, even get a good town role, be conftown as doctor or jk or something

HELLO?
YOU PLAY THIS FUCKING GAME

[Saki]

1) Is a stupid pick because it's 99% likely to be gone and if it is you're left with nothing, 2) Is an okay pick I think there's several draft positions that point towards scum wanting tog et rolecop before roleblocker 3) Disagree strongly, neighbouriser is not stronger than rolecop, 4) Same thing as #2 and 5) Killing roles are problematic for scum to take generally. So no, you're wrong there's lots of instances where scum taking rolecop as #2 makes sense.

you make me cringe

[Saki]

The fact that you're pushing "If he claims rolecop he gets instant lynched therefore he's town" is one reason why scum would claim rolecop, holy christ.

it's playing against fucking scum wincon by your logic so scum would never actually fucking claim rolecop

[Saki]

The fact that you're pushing "If he claims rolecop he gets instant lynched therefore he's town" is one reason why scum would claim rolecop, holy christ.

it's playing against fucking scum wincon by your logic so scum would never actually fucking claim rolecop

you hold it to be an obvious fact that rolecop=scum
then why would scum claim rolecop

fsjdfdf;klad;klasfjd;lksafdf;kld;klask;

[Saki]

why am i arguing with scum moonlogic
idgi

[Saki]

That leaves me to find who was primarily responsible for getting ZZZX killed. Can anyone shed some light on it so I don't have to read another 16 pages and I can participate?

Regfan

Go read page 27
I fought long and hard but didn't get anywhere

[Saki]

and to some questions aimed at me

no I am not voting anyone outside Regfan/Siv today and I already explained why
yes I have been reading the thread
and no I have not felt the need to comment on anything

[Saki]

v/la ~sept 7th, moving back to dorms

[Saki]

hi I'm back

[Saki]

VOTE: hephastus

[Saki]

VT was told nothing else.