Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 22, StrangerCoug wrote:VOTE: Xayzeck
SURELYyou thought your response to Witness Protection through. [/sarcasm]
i was responding to this btw
i can't seem to figure out why you're voting me, because you think i'm scum or just for the sake of wagonsGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 62, Elyse wrote:It's also something easy to talk about and make it look like you're doing stuff - when really, you're not giving any opinions on players' alignments and such.
Likewise talking about theory also has the same effectGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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kinda
you said setup spec was appearing to be useful
and i felt that you adding to the theory discussion is just something you could be doing to appear useful, especially since dryfit already briefly answered it. it was unneeded contribution that doesn't help us find scum, but makes you look like an active contributor
therefore it is scummy
UNVOTE:
ice is probtown btw
give me a bit to decide between elyse and WP for now, since there seems to be something going on with WPGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 76, Nachomamma8 wrote:In post 70, Xayzeck wrote:give me a bit to decide between elyse and WP for now, since there seems to be something going on with WP
Vote: Witness Protection
Join me.
VOTE: WP
Your thoughts on Elyse?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 119, Nachomamma8 wrote:fuck me elyse is my last scumread of the group
think burn is p town and iec is lean town
are these independent or did you PoE some of em outGMT+8-
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In post 207, Salamence20 wrote:Idk, it dont really matter since i have no qualms moving to Xay. But I cant read Xay because he always has this "I dunno what ur talking about, Im town" feel that makes it hard to accurately read him.
PV though. He should know better
you've played with me before haven't you?
there was that triplicate game where you had like this big case against me no? that should help you outGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 202, Salamence20 wrote:PV/Xay: Best case of scum on my wagon for reasons already stated.
unless i'm blind i don't think these were every explained
like properlyGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 203, Elyse wrote:He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.
am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?GMT+8-
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In post 215, StrangerCoug wrote:In post 211, Xayzeck wrote:In post 203, Elyse wrote:He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.
am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?
Why do you care about meta? Anybody here can manipulate their own meta to serve their best interest.
Exactly why I brought it up? Meta reads are only reliable through play experience. We haven't played, if she has a problem with it then she should push it, not brush it off with meta that she doesn't back up yet still chooses to vote me for who really knows whyGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 222, StrangerCoug wrote:That's not the point I was making. I believe meta is useless to determine alignment. If you want an idea of how she plays in general, though, your asking for meta is more forgivable.
This would be where I have to disagree with you a little, because I feel meta is a great tool for scumhunting, but only if you've played with the person. I don't think you can meta someone you have never played with, whereas if you play with the person a lot, meta reads make more sense.
What Elsye did is she started out with a (i think sort of)scumread on me, which was bad enough as it is because she never explained how it was scum indicative, and then dismissed it herself through metatells(maybe because of Nacho), yet keeps her vote on me(maybe because of Sala).
You seem to be asking me why I care about her meta? That isn't the case, I'm curious as to how she arrived to "It's probably playstyle/personality" which is a metatell she's using on me to nullify the scumread she has on me(not sure if nullify is the correct word here, since she has expressed that PV could be scum yet hasn't moved her vote, so i'm scummier than PV? idk).
There's so little effort to read me here, and so much of looking good to good players while still staying on a small, supported, safe wagon, which I think to be scum.
I'm just sheeping Nacho at the moment because Elyse doesn't have much support(to be fair i didn't really push for it), plus I don't mind a Sala lynch(for now at least).
You said that I was asking for meta in general was more forgivable? I'm not sure I understand, because I don't recall asking for her meta? I do recall asking her if she meta'd me though, but I get the feeling that's not what you understood.GMT+8-
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In post 264, ToastyToast wrote:And are there seriously 2 people on me based on one post? You have 11 pages and somehow my slot voting Sayscyek is the scummiest thing in the game?
you aren't the biggest wagon
thus you aren't the scummiest thing in the gameGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 277, Nachomamma8 wrote:In post 275, Xayzeck wrote:hi nacho i'm just gonna steal this top from you
content?
catching up right nowGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 274, Nachomamma8 wrote:I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Your response to his catchup doesn't really give me the impression you liked it really
what do you like about it in particular that has you restance your read on the slot?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 274, Nachomamma8 wrote:I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...
Vote: PeregrineV
Am I the only one who feels this Pere vote just came out of nowhere?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 253, StrangerCoug wrote:I scumread you for not scumreading anyone PERIOD. I am not trying to force you to sheep me; I am trying to force you to take an actual part in this game.
Where did Elyse say you wanted her to sheep you?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 312, ToastyToast wrote:@Xayzck: you question nacho on his belief that my catchup is "good," so what is your stance on it?
Not good enough to make me think you're town, if that answers your question.GMT+8-
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In post 339, Elyse wrote:Instead of asking that, why don't you ask Nacho why he voted Pere? Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.
(i was asking him it just wasn't directly asking you know i thought that was kinda implied)GMT+8-
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In post 349, Aronis wrote:6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling.
Elab?GMT+8-
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In post 368, Elyse wrote:Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?
Are you serious?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 370, Elyse wrote:what do you think
what useful answers can come out of that question, because I can't think of any.
why do i have a problem with people townreading you?
well, if you listen to a song, and you think it's garbage, but someone else thinks it's good, wouldn't it be normal to ask WHY he thinks it's good? because that's like the exact same thing that's happening right nowGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 370, Elyse wrote:what do you think
In post 371, Aronis wrote:In post 367, Xayzeck wrote:In post 349, Aronis wrote:6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling.
Elab?
I said her lack of direction can be 'troubling'. I didn't say it is scummy, I didn't say it isn't. In my opinion her hesitance shows caution, which is good for the town, especially at first. But if she continues along that path forever and doesn't take more solid stances on subjects, it shows she is keeping all options open, which is scummy. So she's a slight town read at this point.
I never said anything about her lack of direction being alignment indicative, but since you said it was so, why bother putting it in at all?
Why would caution be good for town early game? It makes more sense for town to be cautious late game, no?GMT+8-
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In post 414, Elyse wrote:Why didn't you just say that the first time? I genuinely wondered if you thought I was kidding.
Because it was a dumb question, did you expect me to take it seriously?
In post 414, Elyse wrote:It's not like I asked some asinine question...and is your read on me strong enough to compare me to garbage music?
Garbage music was just the analogy for scumreading someone. What's your point?
In post 414, Elyse wrote:Like I don't understand the vitriol with which you are acting toward me and your scumread on me.
I don't see what there is to understand? I scumread you, and I don't know why people are townreading you, so I ask them. It's that simple, I don't even know why you bothered to ask why I questioned others' townreads on you in the first place.
In post 414, Elyse wrote:It just seems over the top when your case boils down to...actually I don't know.
That isn't my fault, I feel like I've made my reasons quite clear.
In post 414, Elyse wrote:Your vote was out of the blue.
Not true.
In post 414, Elyse wrote:Why are you voting me?
Why can't you check my ISO and find out?
Because really, most of my ISO has been focused on you, everything I have a problem with I have already brought up, and often, if not always, I have been met with unsatisfactory answers.
But I'll link them out for you because you'll just end up asking me for specific posts
59 63 the wagon entry and what not
65 self explanatory
203 "townvibes" but later on below it's scummy if i were newbscum. i don't get it
211 212 this particular question had a great response
218 227 I ask where the hyperdefensiveness it was, it was everywhere apparently. Ok, that's cool, was it indicative? Well, according to her..it MIGHT be...IF i was newbscum.. And in this one I had to force reads out from her and make her take a stance, a stance she could have taken a LONG TIME BEFORE THIS. Even the reasons she gives for Sala and Pere are just...ugh. So Sala starts off bad, but now he isn't bad, so he's not scummy? I think? I can't even tell what her read on Sala, and how she arrived to a "alright now" conclusion, I don't get. Her Pere read? So much is just, observation. "he fluffed, his vote is eh". Does this mean you think he's scum? "he's open on sheeping nacho" well, so am I. Does this mean he's scum? "gut says he's scum" Okay then.
223 227 She doesn't reply to all of my 223, which sucks, because 223 probably has the most points that I had a problem with. But she even says it there in 227, she voted me for pressure. Cool. She thought it'd help her read me. Cool. But then she says it probably won't work because my defensiveness is playstyle(i still don't get it), and yet she doesn't move it why? Because she isn't townreading me? None of this makes any sense from a town perspective imo. You voted me because you thought the pressure would help you read me, but you've concluded by yourself that wouldn't work. That voting to pressure me wasn't going to work. But you vote me anyway why? Because you don't townread me? That makes zero sense to me, you're voteparking for the sake of it, when you could have used your vote for, idk, pere maybe, like you did when I pushed you to take a stance.
She also never answers how she concludes hyperdefensiveness was playstyle, she probably just came up with that and threw it out there to help out with the voteparking plan. Also, it's in 223 i say that if I weren't sheeping Nacho, I would be voting her, so this vote isn't out of the blue. Just FYI.
And questions that imo don't help her get anything alignment indicative but make her look like she's actually scumhunting!
In post 339, Elyse wrote:Instead of asking that, why don't you ask Nacho why he voted Pere? Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.
In post 368, Elyse wrote:Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?GMT+8-
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In post 410, Nachomamma8 wrote:I'm unhappy selling you on Elyse-town because I am not completely sold on Elyse-town.
I'm much happier writing up a case on Iecerint.
I'd be infinitely happier if you would substantiate your Elyse case
Because I think I asked you a really long time ago but you never replied.
Like really, I don't care how confident you are in Elyse, I can't seem to understand how she's getting townread. Townvibes/feels, maybe, I'd understand those kinda reads on Elyse, but I don't understand legit townreads.GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 422, Dry-fit wrote:Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?
lol I've been focusing most of my efforts on this Elyse thing that I've paid less attention to the other slots.
Ice is the only other scumread I can remember, I don't recall being fond of the Sala wagon really, even though that seems to be a pretty big thing.GMT+8-
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In post 456, ToastyToast wrote:But I do think Elyse-Xayzeck has at least one scum. It just seems...fake? Between Xay's analogies and Elyse's "I'm feeling so attacked right now and I just came here to have a good time" posting, I'm left wondering what they are even arguing over.
There's not really much arguing, it's just me pushing my scumread.
What do you feel is fake?GMT+8-
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In post 454, Iecerint wrote:See? Literally zero votes.
Do you want votes?
Because I'm pretty sure that could happen.GMT+8-
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In post 468, Gemini Blind wrote:Do you ever say why? (and if not, why?)
I've said why I scumread Elyse, haven't I?
I also said I've ended up putting most of my efforts on to Elyse, so I haven't been paying attention to other slots. I recall scumreading Ice, I don't recall why. I'm willing to guess that it's because most of the playerlist though he was scum, and not something I discovered purely on my own. Like the reads of others influenced my read on him, almost.
For Sala, the wagon built up on his dayvig talk, which I thought was kinda dumb, and the wagon's been up ever since, but I'm not sure if he's done anything scummy since the dayvig talk, which I honestly don't think was worth a wagon. What I do have a problem with, and that I can remember, is how he bragged about getting out of RVS, but I see that more likely coming from town that scum almost.
Why didn't I say all of this before? Because most of this is outdated lolGMT+8-
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In post 478, Elyse wrote:If you are scum, you avoid taking strong stances on other players which lets you hop on a wagon at will and defend your scumbuddies.
If you are town, you are wasting time tunneling on a townie and not looking for scum. Even if I was scum, you would be wasting time not looking for my buddies.
I'm tunneling scum though, and i'd be wasting time not looking for your buddies? I'm more concerned with how much you're getting townread at the moment, and that makes zero sense at all. Nobody has given me a definite, substantial answer, mostly just townvibes. Like, wtfGMT+8-
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In post 482, Gemini Blind wrote:I don't like the last line here. How is it outdated? It's day 1. As far as I'm concerned your opinion is still relevant, and could still be important. Especially if it's about the comments in opposition to the Salamance wagon. Saying something about it earlier might have helped derail the wagon if you were so opposed to it.
Because most of this was like...page 1-5 (i think)
so there's like 10+ pages of content that I would be ignoring
that's pretty outdatedGMT+8-
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This is a good killGMT+8-
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In post 504, Elyse wrote:And I've dismantled every point and you just ignore it.
no you didn't
you said "I've already answered those the best I can" or something along those lines
but most of the problems I have are with your answers
where exactly did you dismantle my case?GMT+8-
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The reasons you voted me in RVS are fine, what isn't fine is you said my playstyle was hyperdefensive, and what I don't get is how you can conclude that by just looking at this game. If in other game I wasn't hyperdefensive, then wouldn't that mean something? Also, I never got a definite answer to where my hyperdefensiveness is, an example would've been nice at the time.
And now that you've decided that voting me wouldn't work anymore, why didn't you move your vote? I pushed you to voice what you disliked about PV and Sala, and then you voted someone else, when you could have done that a long time before. You were able to take a stance on PV, but you didn't until I asked you about your PVread. So for the entire time you were voting me because you didn't have a new home for your vote, when in fact you DID have a new place for your vote (PV that is)
I recall also having problems on your Sala and PV stances
And fluff questions, especially that "why do you have a problem with people townreading me". That bugged the hell out of me, because it was pretty clear I was scumreading you, so obviously I'd have problems if people were townreading you.
I think that's pretty much my case in a nutshell. Your response to my case doesn't actually address the problems I have with you. You're telling me why you voted me in RVS, which I don't have a problem with. I have a problem with how you concluded it was playstyle without checking up my meta, which you don't tell me here. If you didn't check it with meta, it isn't reliable, you avoid taking a stance on me(and on everyone else, kind of) and just vote park me, which I don't see townmotivation in(even more so that you actually could have voted PV).GMT+8-
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In post 530, Elyse wrote:I still want to know
-if it's a real shot
-if Sala read before he shot me (which he'll probably lie about)
-why he shot me
-why he didn't ask me to claim
-why PV is content to wait until Monday when deadline is impending and he's voting someone who's potentially day killed
If I die make sure these are answered. Well the first one will be.
well that first one is answered.GMT+8-
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In post 510, ToastyToast wrote:Given the slow pace of the game, would it not be typical for some players to try to look at meta? I guess I'm not quite comprehending why you think its scummy. I'm not very familiar with your meta either, but you DO seem to be getting defensive with regards to how she sees your playstyle. Its almost as if you are trying to derail her credibility rather than
Yeah, meta is fine, I get that. Meta is useful early game, sure. I personally think meta is most useful if you actually play with the person, but I don't mind if people rely heavily on meta.
My point was that she DIDN'T use meta, and because of that there's this huge gap in her read on me. She voted me because she thought I would give reactions, but she realised I was hyperdefensive based on playstyle, thus my reactions wouldn't help her sort me. That would be cool, but she admitted to never having meta'd me at all. She's concluding it's playstyle without comparing it to any game that I have played before, and THAT is the big problem I had that she NEVER addressed.
I don't care if she did use a metatell, I don't care if anyone uses a metatell. Hell, I'm pretty sure Nacho did and I don't really mind because I've played with Nacho before and he's probably got a vague idea as to how I play. What I DO mind is concluding it's playstyle WITHOUT using a metatell, which is exactly what she did.
In post 510, ToastyToast wrote:I think its pretty obvious that I'm referring to the people voting me here. From their perspective, I was "scummiest" from one point.
I interpreted it as scummiest thing in the game, not from their POV. Also, the slight victimization. ALSO, Ice vote parked from WP, so that doesn't really count, could have just been waiting for more content or something, so really it was just PV. PV never really explained though, but I recall him saying it was just because you didn't post for a while after your first post, so it could have very well been pressure votes.
Point being, scummiest thing is way over-the-top no matter how you look at it.
In post 510, ToastyToast wrote:These are some of the other interactions that made me ping. Instead of really attacking her/pushing her, you have this..."why do I have to talk to you right now?" attitude. Then, on her end, she seems really angry with the fact that you are pushing-her-but-not-really.
That's not wrong, but in quoted interactions, her questions were really questions I where I was "why am I answering stuff like this". Like, I've made it pretty apparent I scumread her, even if she doesn't understand why, would it make any sense to ask "why do you have a problem with people townreading me" when that's common sense? I scumread you, thus if people townread you I disagree with them. Why she asked that, I have no idea, she never explained this too, but if you'd like to take a guess go ahead.
I've detailed everything I had a problem with, heck, I think I've talked about her not actually using meta to conclude playstyle point SO MANY TIMES, and why I have a problem with it, but even you're still asking it. I don't get it, is it a big hole that only I'm seeing?GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 512, Gemini Blind wrote:Xayzeck: maybe scum. Not a fan of his interactions with Elyse. Both of them kind of have a one track mind, but I don't know, Elyse just feels more genuine.
genuine = town?
non genuine = scum?
Not sure I've got much faith in tells like this.
Not sure I've got much faith in that read list either, considering your strongest scumread is based on tone and many of your other reads (6/11) don't have a very firm stance.
A little elaboration on these would be dandy, like I kinda get that one track mind thing, but not so much on genuine.GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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Throwing the dayvig before you die and claiming cop is not going to save your lynch, and even if it did, it wouldn't save your NK.
If you get docced, then maybe, but then you wouldn't have to waste dayvig.
So, claiming cop would be more ideal that last minute vig.
Last minute vig also keeps the lynch in your control provided town doesn't scramble votes in time, guarantees a "mislynch" D1, and if you claim cop, gives you a chance of drawing a CC, which I think draws more benefits for scum.
Claimed cop dies N1, potentially, that is true. But last-minute-day-vig + cop claim after flip doesn't exactly help that chance much. Helps scum more.GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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In post 591, Gemini Blind wrote:Scum lie, town tells the truth.
Thus when town says things, it's more genuine, while scum have to fake reads. I'm trying to sift through the people who are actually hunting and the people who are just pretending to do so.
Then you're assuming that people always sound genuine when telling the truth, and fail to do so when lying, which isn't at all true.
Do you think I'm pretending to hunt?
Better asked as: Do you agree with the problems I had with Elyse?
Not to be answered with: tone, vibes, genuine, because these aren't actually scumhunting, you can just call tone/vibes town when that is much easier to pull out of your ass to make it look like you're actually reading someone.GMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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Of course, these tells would be more valid if you could compare how I would play towngames/scumgames and compare tone/genuineness/vibes if that's at all possible, but I don't think that's the case.
Also, if all of this is why you voted me at all, then I'm guessing I'm your strongest scumread maybe? And that's slightly troubling if it's only built on tone/vibes/genuineness imoGMT+8-
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Xayzeck Jack of All Trades
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