Open 573: C9++

[wgeurts]

Everytime wgeurts posts my faith in the new generation of players wanes a bit.

Yeah, this is like my second game, ever.
I'm going to give reasons on MM vote later.

[Aneninen]

Wguerts. I know it hasn't been intentional, but talking about ongoing games (and, as far as I know, linking them) is against the site rules. Sorry, we must do this:

@Mod. We need a post deletion. This: 1024

I'm referring to this post: 117. Are there any games you were in on another site?

[wgeurts]

So linking them is also against the rules -_-.

[wgeurts]

http://forums.warsworldnews.com/viewtop ... start=1080
Here's a game not from here.

[Heartless]

how's ^this for a reads progression, massive?

Straight up worse than what I did. Good job. Put TTH on the phone.

I like this guy!

lol ok, you got your wish

enjoy your quality time with TTH

[Heartless]

Will not lynch in {Anen, Heartless, whygorts, monkey} because I don't want to lynch town.

Will not lynch in {nero, TSO, nachomollie} for various reasons.

I'd prefer to lynch out of {grayfox, dave} but that might not be entirely sane.

there's a lack of

massive and death stare in these lists.

also, i'd like to hear the "various reasons" for tso

[Nero Cain]

I'd like to know what I've done to stop getting scum read?

[Aneninen]

http://forums.warsworldnews.com/viewtop ... start=1080
Here's a game not from here.

Eeeew! Cop+Doctor setup. Easily breakable. Also, the game itself wasn't too interesting. (Disqualified players? WTF?) Who were you anyway (I mean, what was your name there)?
Back to this game, thanks for your effort but that gave me no additional information, sorry.

[massive]

Here, let me try to explain it back to you the way I understand it: NC is scummy because he started out not scumreading wgeurts. Then, later in the game when explaining his wgeurts read, he changed his story and said he was scumreading wgeurts this whole time. Therefore, Nero Cain is scum.

You can boil it down to just that middle sentence, really. His ISO doesn't read like he was scumreading wgeurts the whole time, but when asked, he claims his early vote was legitimate scumhunting.

There's several issues with this. One is that, as Antihero and 50 Shades of Purple have already explained, the statement "NC wasn't scumreading wgeurts at first" is categorically false.

No. Go back and look at the posts surrounding Nero's vote for wgeurts and subsequent questions about wgeurts' "other site" experience. Tell me that looks like someone who is voting because he GENUINELY BELIEVES that his vote is on someone scummy.

But even if I granted you that premise there's a huge part of the case missing and that's the "Why?" Why would Nero Cain insist on this revisionist history of the game? Was he redoubling his efforts on wgeurts in an attempt to lynch him? Was he using it to justify a push on someone else? Was he doing it to distance himself from wgeurts? The only one that looks plausible is that last one, but it doesn't look like a wgeurts scumread is coming into the equation for your particular argument.

Why does his reason have to include someone else? Why not just to shore up his own towniness? Why not as a pre-emptive defense? Presenting yourself as a consistent, well-reasoned townie is a thing, or used to be a thing. How else can he defend against my question about his read? He has to say "I was always scumreading wgeurts" because otherwise there's nothing to move him from his early helpful position to his hard scumread later.

[wgeurts]

http://forums.warsworldnews.com/viewtop ... start=1080
Here's a game not from here.

Eeeew! Cop+Doctor setup. Easily breakable. Also, the game itself wasn't too interesting. (Disqualified players? WTF?) Who were you anyway (I mean, what was your name there)?
Back to this game, thanks for your effort but that gave me no additional information, sorry.

MysteriousLad, this game is shamefull.

[50 Shades of Purple]

Ok, I read some stuff, I will now try to go back to questions directed at me, hope I find them.

50 shades: Why aren't you voting me?

I'm not voting you because the case I had on you is incredibly and horribly outdated.

[sthar8]

Will not lynch in {Anen, Heartless, whygorts, monkey} because I don't want to lynch town.

Will not lynch in {nero, TSO, nachomollie} for various reasons.

I'd prefer to lynch out of {grayfox, dave} but that might not be entirely sane.

there's a lack of

massive and death stare in these lists.

also, i'd like to hear the "various reasons" for tso

massive is all cases that I understand but don't agree with, which is not strongly indicative.

guyinkamius I'm waffly on. I

really

didn't like the whole interaction with nacho, but I've incorrectly scumread GIF for not being heavily engaged before. But he might be an intersectional scumread of my townreads, but I can't tell because nobody's pushing it hard. So...

TSO is a strong player who isn't quite in the swing of the game yet. I understand his paranoia on me and mollie even though I obviously don't agree. Plus there are like five players in this game who are keeping me excited and engaged despite not really having any strong reads, and I'm not ready to get rid of any of them yet.

@ nero I moved on from scumreading you like forever ago. Your various reasons overlap with TSO's quite a bit.

[Aneninen]

Sthar8, I'd say you could join me and vote for Davesaz but
(1) I don't think that wagon will go anywhere Today and
(2) I'm thinking about something. I hope I'll have some time tomorrow to post about it.

[MonkeyMan]

Everytime wgeurts posts my faith in the new generation of players wanes a bit.

Yeah, this is like my second game, ever.
I'm going to give reasons on MM vote later.

You still haven't answered my question.

[Aneninen]

Okay, there are less than

13

12 hours left so I can't wait more with this. I'm posting the case I've been thinking about for a while. (Even if it seems to be a drastic change of my reads.)

Wguerts has been wasting our time all the time and done no real scumhunting at all.

Spoiler: about Wguerts...

We were fooled by his early-posts. (Okay, not all of you but I was fooled, definitely.) By suggesting No Lynch and talking about theoretical question he had two goals, in my opinion. First of all, he wanted to "detour" the game (and I was stupid enough to get engaged in conversations about the setup, about theories, etc.). Plus, he wanted to wait until cases against other players were emerging.

In 165 he was "tempted to lynch Nero" but did nothing. (As far as I can remember, Nero was FoS according to many players' reads.) Null-posts and the "let's do No Lynch" posts followed that point for a long time.

In 289 he asked

"Any articles anywhere I can read to improve?"

. But I had told him in 121

"Also, Wguerts, wiki.mafiascum.net is your friend."

. It seems that he wasn't (hasn't been?) reading the thread at all!

In 295 things changed, he voted for DeathStare (his reasons were vague, I think). However, in that post and in 298 he told us that his scumread were MonkeyMan and DeathStare – those were the longest wagons at that time!!!

Aaaand, surprise! In 397 he posts a long case against Monkeyman and votes him a single post later! By that time, DeathStare had 3 votes (including his vote), Monkeyman had 4. Yet again, he joined the longest wagon and put Monkeyman to L–2.

Than a long pause comes in his posts. Keeps on suspecting Monkeyman and then, in 664 he votes for 50Shades. (Again, he turned that wagon into the longest one.) A naked vote! He explains his vote much later, in 787/788. Yes, those contained valid points but I've read that part again. Am I right that his case contained nothing new and contained only very old things? Also, in 757 he told that his scumread was Monkey, and a post later he corrected himself to Monkey and 50Shades. (He was voting for 50Shades at that time). Again, his scumreads were mirroring the most popular wagons.

We ignored 915. Check this:

MTD

(in 913):

"Well shit. I completely forgot about this. I will try to catch up -.-"

Wguerts's answer was:

"Have fun, I've completely lost it after doing the same."

– was he suggesting MTD

not

trying to catch-up at all??!

974 is important too.

"Could we like, make a decision as a group or something? Right now we are all aimlessly voting random people. If everyone puts everyones names plus no lynch in a list with most wanted at the top and least at the bottom I'll do an istant run-off vote so we can actually progress. Who will join this?"

– I've checked and they indeed used a similar system in the game he linked for me. Though, as far as I can remember, this system was criticized by some players there! (I might be wrong here, I didn't read the whole game, it was terrible and not because of Wguerts – don't put it in a wrong way.)
But it's more important that I asked a question about that post in 1008 and he's never answered it. That was not the only case: as far as I can remember, he tends to ignore questions, while...
...he answered my question about his games on his other site quickly! Sooooo, if he's been able to answer a question which he may have considered an unimportant one (as for this game), why doesn't he answer "real" IN-game questions??? He even started a conversation with me about that other game!!!

Finally, his vote for Monkeyman in 1020. Again, without any reasoning (though, check out his "explanation". Just check it out!). I've been waiting for a detailed post about Monkeyman but I don't think it'll ever arrive.

TL;DR version: Wguerts
(1) does no real scumhunting
(2) keeps voting for the most popular scumreads/wagons
(3) parrots things pointed out by others in his arguments
(4) gets engaged into a conversation eagerly if it's NOT about this particular game but is unwilling to give (proper) answers if there are questions about the game itself.

Wguerts is likely scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wguerts
Sorry, hoor!

@Everyone
If you think that my case is wrong, point it out quickly, please! If not, we might have enough time for this wagon.

I'm off to work in an hour or so, I'll try to read (and make short mobile posts in every 2–3 hours or so) but I can't promise anything. When I get home we'll watch Twin Peaks with my sweetheart, because we watch the whole series every fall. So, most probably I'll be unable to produce another detailed post Today.
As for other wagons (briefly, because I'm in a hurry).
Unless the forthcoming posts change my reads drastically, my opinion is the following. I'd lynch Davesaz but that won't happen, I suppose. Monkeyman is sort of okay, I posted about this before. (He's either newb-town, or the SK if we have one). 50Shades and Massive: I'm unsure about these. Sthar8 and Nero are bad ideas, I'm unwilling to lynch them Today.

[wgeurts]

Basically you're just calling me scum as I've lost the discussion. I'm making my way through the pages to try and understand again.

[MTD]

prod dodge, sorry

[Nero Cain]

nero I moved on from scumreading you like forever ago. Your various reasons overlap with TSO's quite a bit.

ok......

but calling TSO a strong player looks like whiteknighting and I think that's often from scum.

I also hate Anen. Calls my monkey case crap, agree's with Massive's stupid case on me and then sheeps me? This is very confusing.

[davesaz]

I saw the same things on wgeurts. On phone so cant easily quote with the small screen and kbd.
VOTE: wgeurts

[Nero Cain]

Monkeyman is sort of okay, I posted about this before. (He's either newb-town, or the SK if we have one)

Why do you think he's not group scum?

I voted because you were pursuing an unreasonable scumread against an easy mislynch.

How do you know wguerts is a mislynch?

Though I do agree that he's a fairly easy target but that doesn't necessarily mean he's town.

How?

I think its fairly obvious. You are giving yourself the flexibility to agree my lynch regardless of his flip.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Sthar,
Now this post is going to sound terrible, as it is.
This vote is a counter vote, I'm going to claim Vanilla Townie as I am one. Now I know I could just be a scum saying this as to not get caught off by other PR's. I'm probaly going to die after this anyway so I've made my claim and my vote is litteraly just that, a vote stopping a VT from dying and having a small chance at killing a scum.

[Antihero]

Here, let me try to explain it back to you the way I understand it: NC is scummy because he started out not scumreading wgeurts. Then, later in the game when explaining his wgeurts read, he changed his story and said he was scumreading wgeurts this whole time. Therefore, Nero Cain is scum.

You can boil it down to just that middle sentence, really. His ISO doesn't read like he was scumreading wgeurts the whole time, but when asked, he claims his early vote was legitimate scumhunting.

There's several issues with this. One is that, as Antihero and 50 Shades of Purple have already explained, the statement "NC wasn't scumreading wgeurts at first" is categorically false.

No. Go back and look at the posts surrounding Nero's vote for wgeurts and subsequent questions about wgeurts' "other site" experience. Tell me that looks like someone who is voting because he GENUINELY BELIEVES that his vote is on someone scummy.

But even if I granted you that premise there's a huge part of the case missing and that's the "Why?" Why would Nero Cain insist on this revisionist history of the game? Was he redoubling his efforts on wgeurts in an attempt to lynch him? Was he using it to justify a push on someone else? Was he doing it to distance himself from wgeurts? The only one that looks plausible is that last one, but it doesn't look like a wgeurts scumread is coming into the equation for your particular argument.

Why does his reason have to include someone else? Why not just to shore up his own towniness? Why not as a pre-emptive defense? Presenting yourself as a consistent, well-reasoned townie is a thing, or used to be a thing. How else can he defend against my question about his read? He has to say "I was always scumreading wgeurts" because otherwise there's nothing to move him from his early helpful position to his hard scumread later.

this doin' anything for ya', TTH?

it's not for me

[T S O]

unvote

would vote 5sop, or policy lynch nero. w/e works.

[T S O]

vote: nero

it's not really a policy

I just hate his whole charade of asking why he's not a scumread - why the fuck does this matter?

[T S O]

any half-decent scumplayer can just give a generically sound explanation for it.