Open 573: C9++

[Heartless]

...lol, sorry. i was gonna let TTH dance with sthar for bit

but sthar is so scum.

[Nero Cain]

Can I dance with her?

[50 Shades of Purple]

your slot is town cos of anti. but do you wanna like, yanno interact with us or something? cos your avoidance on your own while calling us scum would normally make me go apeshit.

maybe i can help you out here because there's too much tension here that doesn't need to be here

TTH doesn't really trust what she doesn't understand. that's just the way she is in general, btw. and she doesn't understand your sthar push. i'm trying to explain, but i don't think i'm doing a very good job.

iirc, she asked you about it before yesterday ended, but it was too close to the buzzer for you to answer.

i didn't really want to shut TTH down before she gets happy with a townread on you , buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, i think you're town so it's all just an exercise in absurdity anyway

it is a meta read and I am thinking tso is probs town cos of he started seeing the same thing. I thought he SHOULD have seen it earlier but meh.

I think star's v/la is genuine in that his availability will be unreliable and unpredictable but has already been noted he HAS been around and HAS said in the past that active lurking is a scum strategy of his so I do NOT think that his v/la is a lie cos he is defos not like that I just think that town!star would be posting more when he had the opportunity and he isn't.

[50 Shades of Purple]

TINFOIL

Massive is scum and getting bussed by wgeurts and sthar

wgeurts: maybe
sthar: yes

yaye! people are seeing the light!

[Nero Cain]

Aren't you supposed to be pushing me for agreeing with you?

[Jingle]

Vote Count 2.1

Stars
In your multitudes
Scarce to be counted
Filling the darkness
With order and light
You are the sentinels
Silent and sure
Keeping watch in the night
Keeping watch in the night
-Les Miserables (Alain Boublil, Claude-Michel Schönberg)

massive (4): Heartless, Nero Cain, sthar8, wgeurts
wgeurts (2): Aneninen, MonkeyMan
Nero Cain (1): massive
sthar8 (0):
Heartless (0):
davesaz (0):
GrayFoxxxx (0):
Aneninen (0):
Death Stare (0):
50 Shades of Purple (0):
MTD (0):
MonkeyMan (0):
No Lynch (0):
Not Voting: davesaz, GrayFoxxxx, Death Stare, 50 Shades of Purple, MTD,

With 12 alive, it is seven to Lynch or No Lynch.

Deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2014-10-25 16:00:00) on October 25th, 2014 at PST (GMT-8).

[massive]

VOTE: Nero

I'm vanilla. I don't know what Anti's beef is with me but I still think he's town, just drunk or something. Nero is a sheep here and I still haven't seen anything to disprove the idea he will jump on anything that moves regardless of reasons.

why are you discrediting anti? anti doesn't drink that often and when he does it is like really really obviously and he will tell you he is drunk.

that comment makes me very unhappy massive it looks scummy as shit. you fascinate me cos we are close in age and I wanted to figure out how you think.

but there is a good chance we will be voting so you will probs be voting you but I am going to catch up first.

~iln

You are correct, that is over the line and I apologize. Anything beyond that is going to be seen as ATE and that's not where I'm at.

[massive]

I don't see the leap between massive's "bad case" and scum. How do we distinguish between town massive misunderstanding early Nero vs. scum massive misrepresenting early Nero?

well, there's context for that, dave

is massive
1) looking at the game globally and seeing what other players are doing at the same time?
2) poking nero for answers and seeing if they're making sense (being sure to see if it

does

make sense from a town angle)?
3) really working with his townreads to resolve differences of opinion in the case?

no, no, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand no

those are all hallmarks of "townie who thinks he has something and is just wrong"

in the absence of that, i arrive at "scum who needs to push a mislynch"

Stuck my neck out and couldn't figure out how to get through to you. The mistake is probably spending too much energy trying to get you to understand, and not figuring out who else might be willing to work with me. If I hang, then it's lessons learned all around.

[MonkeyMan]

Hmm...
Sorry massive, just ISO'ed you and I have to agree with the rest.
VOTE: Massive

if you think he is scum then why are you apologising?

Because they are freaking scum. That is why.

you don't apologise to scum, you lynch them.

this is a scumtell that goes waaaaaaay back I remember doing it in 1 of my first scumgames. you are why I want to talk to nacho he is much better at sorting out newbs but your vote looks scummy.

I hope you know I was saying Wguerts is scum.

[sthar8]

Absolutely.

Were you voting for a real wagon at the end of the day?

VOTE: massive

will also accept dave and 50 shades votes

all other votes are inferior and will be made fun of by me

VOTE: massive

i'm pretty pissed at all of you right now. Seriously, fuck all of you.

Why are you pissed at us?

I meant the whole game actually. But I could probably absolve anyone voting for massive at the end of the day.

Also, why are you voting massive? I recall you responded to Antihero's question about your read on massive by saying this:

massive is all cases that I understand but don't agree with, which is not strongly indicative.

How does a massive vote to start today follow?

Did you miss the end of the day yesterday? The deadline wagon that we couldn't push through? He pretty much has to die now.

after the faith game all I can say is

this looks fake as shit.

But not after NY171 or OC?
I'm sorry little miss "lurk out the deadline on a shitty wagon," I can't hear you over the gushing sound of shit spewing from where the players are supposed to be in your slot.

your slot is town cos of anti. but do you wanna like, yanno interact with us or something? cos your avoidance on your own while calling us scum would normally make me go apeshit.

maybe i can help you out here because there's too much tension here that doesn't need to be here

TTH doesn't really trust what she doesn't understand. that's just the way she is in general, btw. and she doesn't understand your sthar push. i'm trying to explain, but i don't think i'm doing a very good job.

iirc, she asked you about it before yesterday ended, but it was too close to the buzzer for you to answer.

i didn't really want to shut TTH down before she gets happy with a townread on you , buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, i think you're town so it's all just an exercise in absurdity anyway

it is a meta read and I am thinking tso is probs town cos of he started seeing the same thing. I thought he SHOULD have seen it earlier but meh.

I think star's v/la is genuine in that his availability will be unreliable and unpredictable but has already been noted he HAS been around and HAS said in the past that active lurking is a scum strategy of his so I do NOT think that his v/la is a lie cos he is defos not like that I just think that town!star would be posting more when he had the opportunity and he isn't.

Hi mollie.

Get your shit together.

I think I made a post just like this is OC.

Thanks for your time.

Badmeta and skimming and hydra-excuses are things that mollie does as scum.

{massive, mollie, dave} are good votes right now.

[Aneninen]

Massive-mix.

(1) Quite a slow start. (Remember, I was wondering whether the scums had been lurking early-Day1 but since all of you told me that my theory had been bullshyt, I dropped it.)

(2) 225:

"wgeurts wants to no lynch. wgeurts doesn't like random bandwagons. wgeurts wants to hold onto his vote. I don't know that mafia is the game for wgeurts."

– if both Wgeurts and Massive are scum, this might have been a coaching. Also, 293; he's responding to Wgeurts's 289. Wgeurts:

"Ok, everyone here is so much better at mafia than on the other forum. Any articles anywhere I can read to improve?"

Massive:

"They're not better, they're just different. And aw you say the sweetest things to me! But seriously, the best way to "get better" is to just keep playing..."

– Yet another coaching? (Caveat: I made similar posts when I was interacting with Wgeurts on early-Day1.)

(3) Davesaz, 237:

"I have seen massive in another game, though he was NK'd before I replaced in so none of the interaction was in real time. I'd like to see more of him in this game."

And Massive's answer in 237

"You and me both! Getting NKed N1 is like the worst thing ever."

– a kind of soft-defense on each other?

(4) 322 Massive's answer for my 318. Aneninen:

"Massive had very few posts with little content. A bit less scummy but it's still scummy. I saw that he's posted recently, I'm going to read those posts as soon as I can."

. Massive:

"SPOILER ALERT: You'll still find it scummy. Especially the part where I say I could vote you."

– well... either Massive thinks I'm the kind of idiot who scumreads everyone who votes for them – or Massive knows that I'm town??? Whattafukk?! Yes, the first part is also possible but he must have noticed that I had never scumread MTD, in spite of his vote!

(5) He was not here for 4 days or so. (I think he was on V/LA but I'm not sure. – Null? He was generally inactive on the site.)

(6) 593 and 620 – these posts seem to be genuine. Though, having read them again somehow they look less contentful now.

(7) The Nero-case starts in 610. I've already talked about that. Apart from the Nero-case there were not much else in Massive's posts for a while. (If I consider his answers to other players, eg. me the part of the "Nero-case".)

(8) Why did he claim at all in 1082? That was absolutely unneccessary, in my opinion.

(9) Massive and Nero. Massive, 1082:

" Nero is a sheep here and I still haven't seen anything to disprove the idea he will jump on anything that moves regardless of reasons."

. Nero, 1083:

"Also I didn't jump on everything yesterday like you claim and its rather interesting that you are changing your push on me to something else."

. Massive, 1090:

"You jumped on wguerts when you thought you had found a rolling ball and had to backtrack to fill in your scum read. Doing exactly the same here."

– That's not entirely true. I launched a case against Wgeurts on late-Day1, which contained plenty of new things, in my opinion. Nero still didn't jump on that wagon – neither on late-Day1, nor now.

(10) Heartless and Massive. Massive in 1111:

"I already know neither Anti nor TTH can actually read me."

– I wonder whether there is a proof for that. 1132 (an answer for Heartless's case) is not an informative answer, in my opinion.

So, (2), (4), (8), (10) and maybe (3), (7) and (9) might have come from a scum-mind. (1) and (5) are null, (6) may be town-post.
In conclusion: Massive is probably scum. Also, Wgeurts is still my strongest scumread, regardless of Massive's alignment – but, it's possible that both of them are scum, because of (2).


@Anyone, Massive included. Care to discuss any of the points?
I'm willing to switch my vote to Massive.
However, I have a kind of theoretical question. Is it a good idea to quicklynch a player now? After all, we've got plenty of time now – shouldn't we try to get more information on each other before lynching? (I've never been in a game on this site where a No Lynch occured. That'swhy I'm asking this.)

[massive]

You should probably wait to do associative scum tells until I, you know, actually flip scum.

[massive]

If (2) is from scum, since you say you did the same thing in your actual post, doesn't that make you scum with me? (10) is true but I can't imagine how it's alignment-indicative. (4) is kinda silly because you pretty much said you found it scummy that I didn't post often (which we already debunked and you said so in that post) so I think I can be a little cheeky. Why is (8) scummy? I'm the obvious lynch after the NL last night so why drag it out?

Want me to continue on to the "maybe scum" posts?

[Nero Cain]

Mollie, why are you calling Massive scum but not voting him?

Did you miss the end of the day yesterday? The deadline wagon that we couldn't push through? He pretty much has to die now.

Why would Massive *have* to die just 'cause his wagon didn't go through? Yes, there was a good chance he'd get wagoned up and be the days lynch but there's no "we have to lynch him."

However, I have a kind of theoretical question. Is it a good idea to quicklynch a player now? After all, we've got plenty of time now – shouldn't we try to get more information on each other before lynching? (I've never been in a game on this site where a No Lynch occured. That'swhy I'm asking this.)

In the long run I don't think it'll matter. If Massive is scum then prolonging his lynch allows his team to A.) spread around Mist and B.) work on a counter lynch. Usually discussion is considered pro-town (and it is.) but forcing discussing just 'cause dl isn't up yet seems like it would be a bad idea. If we are still talking about stuffs then fine but I don't think we should artificially draw out the day.

[Nero Cain]

I had four votes on me at deadline and would have been lynched had anyone been paying attention. How is that "fuck all reason"?

And anything specifically scummy about my play? Calling it "horrible" seems like you don't have any idea what might have been actually indicative.

Well, I don't think you being wagoned yesterday meant you were going to 100% be the lynch today. Yeah there was a good chance but I don'think there was any reason to claim this early 'cause hypothetically you might not have been lynched and yes, that's fuck all reasoning.

Ignoring the fact that your "case" on me is all kinds of bad...I do not like you claiming early. Also a lil' ticked off that you are selectively hunting me.

had to backtrack to fill in your scum read. Doing exactly the same here.

like here you are fussing at me that I'm retroactivly giving reasons why I was voting you and wgeurts.

but wgeurts is doing the same thing.

[Heartless]

Can I dance with her?

easy there, mr. sugarpants

Did you miss the end of the day yesterday? The deadline wagon that we couldn't push through? He pretty much has to die now.

consequence of no one being on?

i mean, if that's true, that implicates: wgeurts

[sthar8]

Why would Massive *have* to die just 'cause his wagon didn't go through? Yes, there was a good chance he'd get wagoned up and be the days lynch but there's no "we have to lynch him."

I mean, there are other ways to resolve "could scum not find a cw or do we legitimately have 8 VIs in this game." I'm all ears.

[sthar8]

consequence of no one being on?

i mean, if that's true, that implicates: wgeurts

no that's bullshit. We should have been consolidating looong before it mattered if someone could be on in a 12 hour window.

Don't push that 'winds of fate' crap, it's either half the people in the game being idiots or scum dodging the lynch.

[GuyInFreezer]

Omg im still in this game and I didnt read like 10 pages
Hello everyone ill read tomorrow and stuff.

[Aneninen]

@Massive. (Referring to my 1135 and his 1137)
Yes, as for (2), you're right: I had done the same thing and I noted that in my post. That greatly weakens (2), I know.
(10) – which part did you admit that it was true? The "there is no proof that the Anti-TTH hydra didn't read you" part or the "1132 was not informative" part?
(4) –

"SPOILER ALERT: You'll still find it scummy. Especially the part where I say I could vote you."

– As for the first part (you referred to the fact that you weren't posting a lot), I may believe that it was a kind of joke. But the next part is still strange. Yet again: either you thought that I'd scumread everyone who votes for me or you're pretty sure about my alignment.
As for (8), why did you claim? You aren't (and weren't) at L–1. I can see no town motivation for that.

As for the other points. We needn't talk about (7), I think we've talked a lot about that. (Recapitulation: after a thorough examination I found your case weak, but launching a weak case on Day1 is not a strong scumtell in itself.) (3) May be a mere speculation from my side, since Davesaz is on my scumlist too. However, I'm interested in (9) very much.

[Aneninen]

In the long run I don't think it'll matter. If Massive is scum then prolonging his lynch allows his team to A.) spread around Mist and B.) work on a counter lynch. Usually discussion is considered pro-town (and it is.) but forcing discussing just 'cause dl isn't up yet seems like it would be a bad idea. If we are still talking about stuffs then fine but I don't think we should artificially draw out the day.

You may be right. But I'm still talking with Massive if you don't mind.
By the way, wouldn't Wgeurts be a better idea?

[MonkeyMan]

Why doesn't anyone talk to me. :'(

[Aneninen]

You should probably wait to do associative scum tells until I, you know, actually flip scum.

I mean, there are other ways to resolve "could scum not find a cw or do we legitimately have 8 VIs in this game." I'm all ears.

These two posts are dancing with each other in my mind. (The

"until I, you know, actually flip scum"

part was a lololololololol, but I'm talking about something else now.)

I think all or you are used to my silly theories so, prepare to read another one.

It was indeed terrible that we hadn't been able to achieve a lynch. And it could have happened because all of us are idiots. But, there may be another answer which we should consider.
I simply don't understand the players' interaction pattern (or how should I call it). Day1 was 43 pages long. In such a long time, there should have been player-blocks formed, or at least, mini-blocks. I mean, a couple of players who agree in their reads more-or-less, pushing the same wagon with well-built cases, or anything. I can see no such things. Actually, there are very few "bilateral" town-town or scum-scum reads either. Apart from Heartless (maybe?) everyone is scumread by someone else, most of us by a couple of players. And the things are constantly changing in unexpected ways. As if some players intentionally "screwed up the natural interaction scheme".
I know that I've failed to explain it clearly. I don't know whether I'm right about this or it's just a feeling. But still, does anyone understand me now?

Also, there is something else and it's strange that it seems to be ignored by everyone. TSO's bah post. "

Good luck Town, it could be tough but I believe in you."

– if there were plenty of generally townread players, I'd say, he was trying to warn us that someone who's obvtown in our eyes is scum. But, what if he was talking about something similar I mentioned above? I mean, the scumteam consists of players whom we could never imagine in the same team? What if he thought something like "

WTF, their gameplay makes no sense at all"

?
(I hope that I'm not violating the rules by speculating on this right now. If so, inform me please!)

[Jingle]

(I hope that I'm not violating the rules by speculating on this right now. If so, inform me please!)

No rules have been broken in this post. In the future, if anyone is concerned about things like that, PM me a copy of the message and I can check for possible rules violations.

[Jingle]

Bump?