Mini 1604 -- Zodiac Mafia (Game Over)

[Xayzeck]

Hah I'm on the first post count

Now lets wagonwagonwagon

VOTE: ice

[Xayzeck]

erm

it wasn't really me asking people to wagon ice with me, or asking people to wagon me

it was...just..me saying "let's wagon" and then making a wagon bigger?

it wasn't a request or anything

it was just me like...announcing stuff?

this question feels very uncomfortable lol

[Xayzeck]

yeah i did

because really it wasn't me asking a question

it was just me saying "i'm going to wagon"

[Xayzeck]

VOTE: Xayzeck

SURELY

you thought your response to Witness Protection through. [/sarcasm]

i was responding to this btw

i can't seem to figure out why you're voting me, because you think i'm scum or just for the sake of wagons

[Xayzeck]

if it's the latter i'm really interested how you came to such a conclusion

[Xayzeck]

oo i didn't notice jul's bold was a kill and not a vote

[Xayzeck]

I thought Elyse just pulled something out of her ass to avoid suspicion from just jumping onto the wagon tbh

Dry, why are you specifically stating you aren't going to wagon me?

[Xayzeck]

It's also something easy to talk about and make it look like you're doing stuff - when really, you're not giving any opinions on players' alignments and such.

Likewise talking about theory also has the same effect

[Xayzeck]

nah i was being pretty serious

setup spec = appear being useful

theory talk = appear being useful (esp when dryfit has kinda already cleared it up)

[Xayzeck]

kinda

you said setup spec was appearing to be useful

and i felt that you adding to the theory discussion is just something you could be doing to appear useful, especially since dryfit already briefly answered it. it was unneeded contribution that doesn't help us find scum, but makes you look like an active contributor

therefore it is scummy

UNVOTE:

ice is probtown btw

give me a bit to decide between elyse and WP for now, since there seems to be something going on with WP

[Xayzeck]

give me a bit to decide between elyse and WP for now, since there seems to be something going on with WP

Vote: Witness Protection

Join me.

VOTE: WP

Your thoughts on Elyse?

[Xayzeck]

fuck me elyse is my last scumread of the group
think burn is p town and iec is lean town

are these independent or did you PoE some of em out

[Xayzeck]

VOTE: Salamence

I'm not really a fan of becoming "Nacho's Second Vote" but okay I guess, not that I really have a problem with the sala wagon

[Xayzeck]

(just dropping this proddodge here i'll give this some time tomorrow to catch up the past 2 pages or so other game had my attention i'll come back to this soon love ya'll)

[Xayzeck]

Idk, it dont really matter since i have no qualms moving to Xay. But I cant read Xay because he always has this "I dunno what ur talking about, Im town" feel that makes it hard to accurately read him.

PV though. He should know better

you've played with me before haven't you?

there was that triplicate game where you had like this big case against me no? that should help you out

[Xayzeck]

PV/Xay: Best case of scum on my wagon for reasons already stated.

unless i'm blind i don't think these were every explained

like properly

[Xayzeck]

He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.

am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?

[Xayzeck]

He's hyper defensive and I think it's just how he is.

am i? did you do meta or are you just going to say that because you don't want to scumread me?

Why do you care about meta? Anybody here can manipulate their own meta to serve their best interest.

Exactly why I brought it up? Meta reads are only reliable through play experience. We haven't played, if she has a problem with it then she should push it, not brush it off with meta that she doesn't back up yet still chooses to vote me for who really knows why

[Xayzeck]

Where is this hyper defensiveness you're seeing? If it wasn't playstyle would it be scum indicative?

What do you dislike about PV or Sala?

[Xayzeck]

That's not the point I was making. I believe meta is useless to determine alignment. If you want an idea of how she plays in general, though, your asking for meta is more forgivable.

This would be where I have to disagree with you a little, because I feel meta is a great tool for scumhunting, but only if you've played with the person. I don't think you can meta someone you have never played with, whereas if you play with the person a lot, meta reads make more sense.

What Elsye did is she started out with a (i think sort of)scumread on me, which was bad enough as it is because she never explained how it was scum indicative, and then dismissed it herself through metatells(maybe because of Nacho), yet keeps her vote on me(maybe because of Sala).

You seem to be asking me why I care about her meta? That isn't the case, I'm curious as to how she arrived to "It's probably playstyle/personality" which is a metatell she's using on me to nullify the scumread she has on me(not sure if nullify is the correct word here, since she has expressed that PV could be scum yet hasn't moved her vote, so i'm scummier than PV? idk).

There's so little effort to read me here, and so much of looking good to good players while still staying on a small, supported, safe wagon, which I think to be scum.

I'm just sheeping Nacho at the moment because Elyse doesn't have much support(to be fair i didn't really push for it), plus I don't mind a Sala lynch(for now at least).

You said that I was asking for meta in general was more forgivable? I'm not sure I understand, because I don't recall asking for her meta? I do recall asking her if she meta'd me though, but I get the feeling that's not what you understood.

[Xayzeck]

And are there seriously 2 people on me based on one post? You have 11 pages and somehow my slot voting Sayscyek is the scummiest thing in the game?

you aren't the biggest wagon

thus you aren't the scummiest thing in the game

[Xayzeck]

hi nacho i'm just gonna steal this top from you

[Xayzeck]

hi nacho i'm just gonna steal this top from you

content?

catching up right now

[Xayzeck]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.

Your response to his catchup doesn't really give me the impression you liked it really

what do you like about it in particular that has you restance your read on the slot?

[Xayzeck]

I'm pretty happy with toasty's catchup and salamence's catchup, which means intial reads weren't good.
Meanwhile...

Vote: PeregrineV

Am I the only one who feels this Pere vote just came out of nowhere?

[Xayzeck]

Also share a little about that Sala catchup with me while you're talking about toasty

[Xayzeck]

I scumread you for not scumreading anyone PERIOD. I am not trying to force you to sheep me; I am trying to force you to take an actual part in this game.

Where did Elyse say you wanted her to sheep you?

[Xayzeck]

VOTE: Elyse

[Xayzeck]

Sorry i've been a tad piled up with school work, hopefully this game isn't really stalled on my input. I'll catch up tomorrow guys, sorry.

[Xayzeck]

Admittedly I've put this game on the backseat for a bit for othergames and irl, so sorry, but don't worry I'll get back into this when I've got the time

[Xayzeck]

@Xayzck: you question nacho on his belief that my catchup is "good," so what is your stance on it?

Not good enough to make me think you're town, if that answers your question.

[Xayzeck]

Instead of asking that, why don't you ask Nacho why he voted Pere? Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.

(i was asking him it just wasn't directly asking you know i thought that was kinda implied)

[Xayzeck]

6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling.

Elab?

[Xayzeck]

Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?

Are you serious?

[Xayzeck]

what do you think

what useful answers can come out of that question, because I can't think of any.

why do i have a problem with people townreading you?

well, if you listen to a song, and you think it's garbage, but someone else thinks it's good, wouldn't it be normal to ask WHY he thinks it's good? because that's like the exact same thing that's happening right now

[Xayzeck]

what do you think

6. Elyse - She feels town, but seems to lack direction, which can be troubling.

Elab?

I said her lack of direction can be 'troubling'. I didn't say it is scummy, I didn't say it isn't. In my opinion her hesitance shows caution, which is good for the town, especially at first. But if she continues along that path forever and doesn't take more solid stances on subjects, it shows she is keeping all options open, which is scummy. So she's a slight town read at this point.

I never said anything about her lack of direction being alignment indicative, but since you said it was so, why bother putting it in at all?

Why would caution be good for town early game? It makes more sense for town to be cautious late game, no?

[Xayzeck]

Why didn't you just say that the first time? I genuinely wondered if you thought I was kidding.

Because it was a dumb question, did you expect me to take it seriously?

It's not like I asked some asinine question...and is your read on me strong enough to compare me to garbage music?

Garbage music was just the analogy for scumreading someone. What's your point?

Like I don't understand the vitriol with which you are acting toward me and your scumread on me.

I don't see what there is to understand? I scumread you, and I don't know why people are townreading you, so I ask them. It's that simple, I don't even know why you bothered to ask why I questioned others' townreads on you in the first place.

It just seems over the top when your case boils down to...actually I don't know.

That isn't my fault, I feel like I've made my reasons quite clear.

Your vote was out of the blue.

Not true.

Why are you voting me?

Why can't you check my ISO and find out?

Because really, most of my ISO has been focused on you, everything I have a problem with I have already brought up, and often, if not always, I have been met with unsatisfactory answers.

But I'll link them out for you because you'll just end up asking me for specific posts
59 63 the wagon entry and what not
65 self explanatory
203 "townvibes" but later on below it's scummy if i were newbscum. i don't get it
211 212 this particular question had a great response
218 227 I ask where the hyperdefensiveness it was, it was everywhere apparently. Ok, that's cool, was it indicative? Well, according to her..it MIGHT be...IF i was newbscum.. And in this one I had to force reads out from her and make her take a stance, a stance she could have taken a LONG TIME BEFORE THIS. Even the reasons she gives for Sala and Pere are just...ugh. So Sala starts off bad, but now he isn't bad, so he's not scummy? I think? I can't even tell what her read on Sala, and how she arrived to a "alright now" conclusion, I don't get. Her Pere read? So much is just, observation. "he fluffed, his vote is eh". Does this mean you think he's scum? "he's open on sheeping nacho" well, so am I. Does this mean he's scum? "gut says he's scum" Okay then.
223 227 She doesn't reply to all of my 223, which sucks, because 223 probably has the most points that I had a problem with. But she even says it there in 227, she voted me for pressure. Cool. She thought it'd help her read me. Cool. But then she says it probably won't work because my defensiveness is playstyle(i still don't get it), and yet she doesn't move it why? Because she isn't townreading me? None of this makes any sense from a town perspective imo. You voted me because you thought the pressure would help you read me, but you've concluded by yourself that wouldn't work. That voting to pressure me wasn't going to work. But you vote me anyway why? Because you don't townread me? That makes zero sense to me, you're voteparking for the sake of it, when you could have used your vote for, idk, pere maybe, like you did when I pushed you to take a stance.

She also never answers how she concludes hyperdefensiveness was playstyle, she probably just came up with that and threw it out there to help out with the voteparking plan. Also, it's in 223 i say that if I weren't sheeping Nacho, I would be voting her, so this vote isn't out of the blue. Just FYI.

And questions that imo don't help her get anything alignment indicative but make her look like she's actually scumhunting!

Instead of asking that, why don't you ask Nacho why he voted Pere? Questions like this are scummy because it's almost as if you're making sure someone else will agree with you before you begin questioning Nacho.

Why do you have such a problem with people townreading me?

[Xayzeck]

I'm unhappy selling you on Elyse-town because I am not completely sold on Elyse-town.
I'm much happier writing up a case on Iecerint.

I'd be infinitely happier if you would substantiate your Elyse case

Because I think I asked you a really long time ago but you never replied.

Like really, I don't care how confident you are in Elyse, I can't seem to understand how she's getting townread. Townvibes/feels, maybe, I'd understand those kinda reads on Elyse, but I don't understand legit townreads.

[Xayzeck]

@mod: PV is voting Elyse

431

prod dodgey, will catch up fully tomorrow

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck what are your views on the players in this game besides Elyse? Who would you want lynched if she's off the table?

lol I've been focusing most of my efforts on this Elyse thing that I've paid less attention to the other slots.

Ice is the only other scumread I can remember, I don't recall being fond of the Sala wagon really, even though that seems to be a pretty big thing.

[Xayzeck]

I think Xayzeck is active lurking. +scumpoints.

Am i?

[Xayzeck]

But I do think Elyse-Xayzeck has at least one scum. It just seems...fake? Between Xay's analogies and Elyse's "I'm feeling so attacked right now and I just came here to have a good time" posting, I'm left wondering what they are even arguing over.

There's not really much arguing, it's just me pushing my scumread.

What do you feel is fake?

[Xayzeck]

See? Literally zero votes.

Do you want votes?

Because I'm pretty sure that could happen.

[Xayzeck]

Do you ever say why? (and if not, why?)

I've said why I scumread Elyse, haven't I?

I also said I've ended up putting most of my efforts on to Elyse, so I haven't been paying attention to other slots. I recall scumreading Ice, I don't recall why. I'm willing to guess that it's because most of the playerlist though he was scum, and not something I discovered purely on my own. Like the reads of others influenced my read on him, almost.

For Sala, the wagon built up on his dayvig talk, which I thought was kinda dumb, and the wagon's been up ever since, but I'm not sure if he's done anything scummy since the dayvig talk, which I honestly don't think was worth a wagon. What I do have a problem with, and that I can remember, is how he bragged about getting out of RVS, but I see that more likely coming from town that scum almost.

Why didn't I say all of this before? Because most of this is outdated lol

[Xayzeck]

This is a problem.

Why?

[Xayzeck]

If you are scum, you avoid taking strong stances on other players which lets you hop on a wagon at will and defend your scumbuddies.

If you are town, you are wasting time tunneling on a townie and not looking for scum. Even if I was scum, you would be wasting time not looking for my buddies.

I'm tunneling scum though, and i'd be wasting time not looking for your buddies? I'm more concerned with how much you're getting townread at the moment, and that makes zero sense at all. Nobody has given me a definite, substantial answer, mostly just townvibes. Like, wtf

[Xayzeck]

I don't like the last line here. How is it outdated? It's day 1. As far as I'm concerned your opinion is still relevant, and could still be important. Especially if it's about the comments in opposition to the Salamance wagon. Saying something about it earlier might have helped derail the wagon if you were so opposed to it.

Because most of this was like...page 1-5 (i think)

so there's like 10+ pages of content that I would be ignoring

that's pretty outdated

[Xayzeck]

So im l-2 or 1 so im doing this now i guess

Kill Elyse

Still town.

This is a good kill

[Xayzeck]

with nothing to back it up.

I'm sure as hell i've done this already

[Xayzeck]

And I've dismantled every point and you just ignore it.

no you didn't

you said "I've already answered those the best I can" or something along those lines

but most of the problems I have are with your answers

where exactly did you dismantle my case?

[Xayzeck]

The reasons you voted me in RVS are fine, what isn't fine is you said my playstyle was hyperdefensive, and what I don't get is how you can conclude that by just looking at this game. If in other game I wasn't hyperdefensive, then wouldn't that mean something? Also, I never got a definite answer to where my hyperdefensiveness is, an example would've been nice at the time.

And now that you've decided that voting me wouldn't work anymore, why didn't you move your vote? I pushed you to voice what you disliked about PV and Sala, and then you voted someone else, when you could have done that a long time before. You were able to take a stance on PV, but you didn't until I asked you about your PVread. So for the entire time you were voting me because you didn't have a new home for your vote, when in fact you DID have a new place for your vote (PV that is)

I recall also having problems on your Sala and PV stances

And fluff questions, especially that "why do you have a problem with people townreading me". That bugged the hell out of me, because it was pretty clear I was scumreading you, so obviously I'd have problems if people were townreading you.

I think that's pretty much my case in a nutshell. Your response to my case doesn't actually address the problems I have with you. You're telling me why you voted me in RVS, which I don't have a problem with. I have a problem with how you concluded it was playstyle without checking up my meta, which you don't tell me here. If you didn't check it with meta, it isn't reliable, you avoid taking a stance on me(and on everyone else, kind of) and just vote park me, which I don't see townmotivation in(even more so that you actually could have voted PV).

[Xayzeck]

VOTE: Aronis

Dryfit's more town for me now.

Sala votes <-why are these a thing now? Sala claimed cop, so this lynch should wait for another day

[Xayzeck]

I still want to know

-if it's a real shot
-if Sala read before he shot me (which he'll probably lie about)
-why he shot me
-why he didn't ask me to claim
-why PV is content to wait until Monday when deadline is impending and he's voting someone who's potentially day killed

If I die make sure these are answered. Well the first one will be.

well that first one is answered.

[Xayzeck]

CTD's explanation at the top of this page sums up my aronis vote pretty well

[Xayzeck]

Note to self: Respond to the Toasty wall and the rest on 21

But it's late, so that has to wait for..tomorrow hopefully? I may not be able to do all that before deadline though

[Xayzeck]

Given the slow pace of the game, would it not be typical for some players to try to look at meta? I guess I'm not quite comprehending why you think its scummy. I'm not very familiar with your meta either, but you DO seem to be getting defensive with regards to how she sees your playstyle. Its almost as if you are trying to derail her credibility rather than

Yeah, meta is fine, I get that. Meta is useful early game, sure. I personally think meta is most useful if you actually play with the person, but I don't mind if people rely heavily on meta.

My point was that she DIDN'T use meta, and because of that there's this huge gap in her read on me. She voted me because she thought I would give reactions, but she realised I was hyperdefensive based on playstyle, thus my reactions wouldn't help her sort me. That would be cool, but she admitted to never having meta'd me at all. She's concluding it's playstyle without comparing it to any game that I have played before, and THAT is the big problem I had that she NEVER addressed.

I don't care if she did use a metatell, I don't care if anyone uses a metatell. Hell, I'm pretty sure Nacho did and I don't really mind because I've played with Nacho before and he's probably got a vague idea as to how I play. What I DO mind is concluding it's playstyle WITHOUT using a metatell, which is exactly what she did.

I think its pretty obvious that I'm referring to the people voting me here. From their perspective, I was "scummiest" from one point.

I interpreted it as scummiest thing in the game, not from their POV. Also, the slight victimization. ALSO, Ice vote parked from WP, so that doesn't really count, could have just been waiting for more content or something, so really it was just PV. PV never really explained though, but I recall him saying it was just because you didn't post for a while after your first post, so it could have very well been pressure votes.

Point being, scummiest thing is way over-the-top no matter how you look at it.

These are some of the other interactions that made me ping. Instead of really attacking her/pushing her, you have this..."why do I have to talk to you right now?" attitude. Then, on her end, she seems really angry with the fact that you are pushing-her-but-not-really.

That's not wrong, but in quoted interactions, her questions were really questions I where I was "why am I answering stuff like this". Like, I've made it pretty apparent I scumread her, even if she doesn't understand why, would it make any sense to ask "why do you have a problem with people townreading me" when that's common sense? I scumread you, thus if people townread you I disagree with them. Why she asked that, I have no idea, she never explained this too, but if you'd like to take a guess go ahead.

I've detailed everything I had a problem with, heck, I think I've talked about her not actually using meta to conclude playstyle point SO MANY TIMES, and why I have a problem with it, but even you're still asking it. I don't get it, is it a big hole that only I'm seeing?

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck: maybe scum. Not a fan of his interactions with Elyse. Both of them kind of have a one track mind, but I don't know, Elyse just feels more genuine.

genuine = town?
non genuine = scum?

Not sure I've got much faith in tells like this.

Not sure I've got much faith in that read list either, considering your strongest scumread is based on tone and many of your other reads (6/11) don't have a very firm stance.

A little elaboration on these would be dandy, like I kinda get that one track mind thing, but not so much on genuine.

[Xayzeck]

Last minute shot makes more sense from scum than town.

Even less sense from town cop too.

T'was a good lynch

[Xayzeck]

Throwing the dayvig before you die and claiming cop is not going to save your lynch, and even if it did, it wouldn't save your NK.

If you get docced, then maybe, but then you wouldn't have to waste dayvig.

So, claiming cop would be more ideal that last minute vig.

Last minute vig also keeps the lynch in your control provided town doesn't scramble votes in time, guarantees a "mislynch" D1, and if you claim cop, gives you a chance of drawing a CC, which I think draws more benefits for scum.

Claimed cop dies N1, potentially, that is true. But last-minute-day-vig + cop claim after flip doesn't exactly help that chance much. Helps scum more.

[Xayzeck]

Scum lie, town tells the truth.

Thus when town says things, it's more genuine, while scum have to fake reads. I'm trying to sift through the people who are actually hunting and the people who are just pretending to do so.

Then you're assuming that people always sound genuine when telling the truth, and fail to do so when lying, which isn't at all true.

Do you think I'm pretending to hunt?

Better asked as: Do you agree with the problems I had with Elyse?

Not to be answered with: tone, vibes, genuine, because these aren't actually scumhunting, you can just call tone/vibes town when that is much easier to pull out of your ass to make it look like you're actually reading someone.

[Xayzeck]

Of course, these tells would be more valid if you could compare how I would play towngames/scumgames and compare tone/genuineness/vibes if that's at all possible, but I don't think that's the case.

Also, if all of this is why you voted me at all, then I'm guessing I'm your strongest scumread maybe? And that's slightly troubling if it's only built on tone/vibes/genuineness imo

[Xayzeck]

(really quick prod dodge i dont know why gemini died and nacho didn't)

[Xayzeck]

VOTE: Aronis

I'm fine with Nacho lynch too.

[Xayzeck]

Gemini being killed was so dumb that I am inclined to believe that a kill was blocked and Gemini died by some other mechanism.

That would explain my thinking, but the evidence of a night vig is flimsy, which is why I'd rather not dwell on it. I don't think Gemini Blind was SK'd.

I don't see any reason Gemini would have died at all.

[Xayzeck]

At first I was pretty confident that one of elyse/xayzeck would be scum

I still don't know why you think so.

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck not supporting a Sal lynch post-claim can easily come from either alignment, though.

By end D1 I was for his lynch.

But for most of D1, yeah I wasn't particularly supporting his lynch.

[Xayzeck]

Why do you want to lynch Nacho?

The longer Nacho is alive, the more I want to lynch him.

[Xayzeck]

Why do you want to lynch Nacho?

The longer Nacho is alive, the more I want to lynch him.

No. Actual reasons plz

I am not even joking.

The longer Nacho is alive, the more I want to lynch him.

[Xayzeck]

Please elaborate. If you're saying it's because he's not getting night killed, I think that's too much speculation at the time being. It's only been one night, so it's really hard to tell. For all we know there's an Sk and the mafia and a doc blocked a kill.

If you're saying his play is really scummy lately, I'm not seeing it.

I agree that 1 night is too quick to call him scum, but that'd explain why I'm not voting him at the moment, right?

I don't particularly think his play is scummy either, but unless it's just me, he's got a lot less game presence than I'd expect townNacho to exhibit.

Specifically play wise with alignmenttells though, I don't find him particularly scummy, and I used to find him towny, but for the past while he's just kinda of been there and around to me.

[Xayzeck]

This does not really tell us anything other than how long he's alive is a factor in how scummy he is, which is unreliable by itself in the first place. As Aronis said, support what you're saying.

lol ur quick with your votes

[Xayzeck]

The general idea with Nacho alive = I want to lynch him more is really just "there are certain players who don't make it to lylo" kind of tell, and the closer we get to lylo, the more I think that person is scum, because the only reason they aren't dead, is because they're scum.

And I have Nacho in that "certain players".

Is 1 night too quick to say "let's lynch Nacho"? Duh, but I never asked to lynch him now. I wouldn't mind though, don't get me wrong, and this point itself isn't enough for me to want to lynch Nacho. But who died instead? Gemini? I'm stepping into that NK Wifom zone, but I have no idea why Gemini died over other players, like Nacho/DryFit, who imo are higher up the townlist(in general, iirc).

So if Gemini died, probably someone who's generally more townread than Gemini would have made the kill, and that + the thing above has me considering a Nacholynch.

But I'd still prefer an Aronislynch.

[Xayzeck]

First of all, with regards to Aronis, I've played with him a few times and I've never found him to be a player that seems extremely driven or classically protown. So points of "he hasn't done anything townie" or "he hasn't explained his reasoning" are generally horrible and I honestly don't care for them even a little bit. I see Aronis taking a the strong Salamence position and then completely backing down even while assuming he was still scum (otherwise the "looking at elyse/xay has shown me xay is scummy" doesn't really make sense.

it's more of the "elyse just got shot and my read on her is town watch her flip and watch me be right so i'm town" sort of thing, which i thought was established already?

[Xayzeck]

Downside to no lynching is that scum will probably kill whoever is being town read

I don't think we've got a universally townread player at the moment, though.

[Xayzeck]

it's like 9:50 and i got home not long ago I did a lot of stuff so my legs are wayyy gone

i've got a little more homework to finish up, so if i do that quick then i'll read these walls, but it seems unlikely I'll be able to decently reply to all

i'm vt though, that much I noticed we were doing.

[Xayzeck]

Meanwhile, all the dead town players were scum reading Xayzeck.

I think the entire playerlist has been in this position at some point in the game.

[Xayzeck]

I don't understand why you would claim that...the negative side of claiming Hider is smaller because the utility of Hider is pretty shot at this point, but you were pretty unlikely to be nightkilled were I to guess.

You don't understand claiming rb from a town perspective, scum perspective, or both?

[Xayzeck]

Derpderp

I'm clear if there's 1 scum, but why would there only be 1 scum?

[Xayzeck]

The nature of that slip should basically confirm to anyone reading very carefully that CTD and Iece cannot be scum together btw, unless we are making improbable and unnecessary fake townslip gambits.

Maybe it's just me but I don't completely follow on this

[Xayzeck]

Summary of this game so far from my perspective:

Toasty: I think Salamance is scum!

Salamance flips scum

Toasty: Could be Xayzeck, but I'm more sure on CTD/Iecerint

*gets ignored as usual because this playerlist is lazy (and yeah, I'm also not the best articulating my rationale for scum but that doesn't make me more incorrect than anyone else)

Toasty: crap, out of time. Well, Aronis is a slightly better lynch than Nacho, I guess...

Aronis flips town
Nacho gets modkilled but was town

Toasty: no lynch is fine but its just going to result in bigger town reads getting killed (*cough Dry-fit who was only not a town read for...CTD, I believe?)

Dry-fit gets night killed

Now:

Iece and CTD: let's waste time determining whether or not there is one or two scum!!

Iece: Yeah Toasty is dumb he even missed a correction I made to an earlier post wow he lacks critical thinking skills Let's discredit him and suggest he's scum because THAT makes sense

Toasty: Yeah, Iece. If you are a master of critical thinking at mafia then you should go back to mafia school because IT ISN'T WORKING. If there is one scum, its you. If there are two, its still you. And I knew it from day 1. Be bitter if you want to.

This would be just writing off your whole play as whiteknighting, no? Like, oh I got my first scumread right, here's proof, follow my reads in potential lylo!

[Xayzeck]

Isn't white-knighting when you hard-defend someone who is being attacked by other players? Because that's not what I've done as all, and I don't know how you come to that conclusion. If you are referring to Aronis/Nacho, then you probably haven't read the game (shocker).

In my experience, it's defending someone or pushing for someone whose alignment you know, be it a scum or skills, and once they flip you can get other people to sheep you.

[Xayzeck]

In my mind the only thing that could change this is participation for Xayzeck and Peregrine, which has been minimal throughout the game.

I was fairly active until Elyse got vigged, from then on I've been in kind of a slum from having my only confident read proven to be wrong.

[Xayzeck]

Also I will try to post a summary of my suspicions for you tomorrow, but it is going to take some time condensing. I don't want to just make a quote wall of things I've said in the past.

I will make a quote wall for you so as to illustrate what I mean by my criticism that your posts about me are rhetoric instead of content. Maybe I will find actual content in the process.

I think, as a player who has relatively little insight into this game and it's ins-and-outs(i mean, I vaguely know what has happened, but not incredibly in depth), this would be pretty useful.

As it stands, I don't think CTD is scum? Confirming a town doesn't help scum in any state, and I see no point of doing so unless CTDscum aims to give me hammer because I'm derp.

Between Ice/Toasty, I could go either way. I was leaning Toastytown for tone and gut, but with the recent wall and lackluster defences, I'm starting to think Toasty scum, solely because of selfmeta, generic gametheory, and overall very little relevance in trying to share Icescum or defending himself as town. I could read that wall a thousand times over, and I still would think to myself "Hm maybe Toasty could be town".

Which is why a condensed list of points you two have against each other would be incredibly useful, especially to each other. It's cluttered as hell right now.

[Xayzeck]

Sagittarius' Daily Horoscope:

Communication is flowing smoothly today, Sagittarius, so take advantage of this and get the word out. It's important for you to make connections with other people now. Run with your instincts and feel free to enter into debates. Your words and tone of voice are very convincing. You could sell anything to anyone today.

HELLO PLAYERLIST

I AM TOWN

[Xayzeck]

I read the cases, and it's probably because it's just me that I don't have a particular case that I favour. If I do have one, it's Ice's, but only slightly more. Given I've been low on steam most of the game, I'm not as big on the lurkscum aspect of TT's read on Ice + tone of cases.

I haven't read the latest wall by Ice, since I'm out of steam, so that's for another time.

[Xayzeck]

I'm always skimming this, but I have a hard time reading this mainly because I lost touch after D1. I have yet to read this page in depth, I will do so now.

I could replace out so someone more enthusiastic can take over the slot and be of more help, but I don't like replacing out since it's a pain, and replacement would have to read a shitton and I'd rather not put someone through that.

I'll read them now.

[Xayzeck]

This interaction is probably the most important thing to considering in evaluating Xay given how little he has done today, so the fact that you totally ignored/missed it, similar to your point about Toasty, makes me think you have not read the game very carefully for one reason or another.

I'd say it's a lot more than I did yesterday.

And the day before that, probably.

[Xayzeck]

I honestly don't get why PV scumreads Ice

Nor do I get why this gameday has turned out to largly a Toasty vs Ice. Do you two insist on scumreading each other? Chances are you could both be town. I've got stronger feels over Icetown than Toastytown

While I'm not completely sure why PV has slipped under the radar

Or why I have been able to do so fairly well without receiving much flak. Partly because I got RB'd, maybe, but considering we don't know much about the scumteam, I'd say it's more useful to ignore the RB right now. Likely CTD and I aren't scum together though, doesn't make sense for scum to try and clear a buddy to me.

[Xayzeck]

I suspect that exactly one of Toasty and PV is scum. I am trying to determine which.

It turned into Toasty v Iece because PV wasn't posting and Toasty is scumreading me.

It would also have to include you having Toastyscum above PVscum. Is that the case? Or are you just putting aside your stronger scumread on PV since he's lurk?

[Xayzeck]

Re: you, if you are scum that means 2 scum (since CTD cleared you if she is town, and if CTD is lone scum that still clears you), and 2 scum means an instant loss basically.

Like the scumteam could claim right now and we would still probably lose if there are two scum.

So I want to live in a fantasy land.

I'm not sure I get that. We're still in lylo?

[Xayzeck]

Not hammering, reading up

[Xayzeck]

Oh wait deadline hit fuck

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck what should we do???

Well, if 2 scum then town lost

If 1 scum, then yall can hammer it out tomorrow without me