Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

Bro's before...well I don't think the rest of that is forum appropriate.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-TellTaleHeart, wgeurts, Newbie, Silverwolf (L-3)
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, blindmewithscience, Wisdom (L-4)
The Undertaker-
Newbie-
Malakittens-
SilverWolf-Mathdino, acryon (L-5)
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, The Undertaker, Not_Mafia, malakittens

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.
Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA
Not_Mafia is V/LA until 10/23/2014

Wow you guys toured the ship, took pictures, and just generally hung out and nothing bad happened...this time. Mwahahahahahaha. Ok enough of that. You guys decided to do some stargazing on the maindeck.

@Reinoe

- Any news on the Undertaker's replacement yet?

nope. These are trying times.

[SilverWolf]

Some basic reads-

Mala and N-M

-null-not enough content

Blindedmewithscience

-I would like to hear a response to my 391 before sorting him one way or the other. But that post also outlines my suspicions of him a little bit.

acryon

-despite the earlier problems I mentioned in 377, upon further review of his ISO I can see many of his posts as coming from a town mindset, so he is leaning town for now

wisdom

-explained

Newbie

-getting a newb town feel

wgeurts

-while I was pretty convinced he was newb-town, his absence from the thread for several days is making me wonder if this is correct, he needs to answer for himself

FinnLaw

-303 strike's me as very town and 253 looks town also.

mathdino

-I don't like tunnels-I can see this coming from town or scum, while his posts look detailed, effort is not indicative of alignment and he seems all too willing to give blindmewithscience a pass simply for sharing the same thought process as he does-to be determined

[SilverWolf]

Silver, you misunderstand me. I know you listed the reasons you find Wisdom scummy. But every one of those applies to me as well. So why hop on the Wisdom wagon? Is that not opportunism in itself? All 305 says is you disagree with Wisdom's vote. Well good for you. I voted wgeurts too, as did a lot of people. And then 308, as I mentioned previously, is just a repeat of what Newbie said.

Associative tells are useful after a flip, yes.
So why do you keep using them for your Wisdom case? It relies on wgeurts being town, does it not?
My point is that you being scum doesn't even rely on Wisdom's flip. It's essentially a refutation of Newbie's read on you (she thinks you're town because Wisdom is scum).

I explained why I voted for Wisdom. I'm not sure what else I can add to that. I haven't figured you out yet and that's because I hate being tunnelled and I can't be objective. So I am not going to vote for you at this time. I am wavering on wgeurts tbh due to his disappearance from the thread and if I change my read on him, I will have to revisit my Wisdom read also.

[SilverWolf]

I don't think Wisdom is scum, and I didn't change my mind. It's called a compromise. I think if Wisdom flips scum, it would very much make sense that you guys would be bussing each other, so I'm asking the Wisdom wagon to at least consider it. And no, it's not a fantasy, it's called basic logic. If A implies B, and not A implies B, then B is true. A = "Wisdom is scum". B = "SilverWolf is scum". Do the Math.

Your logic assumes we are both scum regardless of Wisdom's flip and that is a no-win situation you are putting me in like I mentioned earlier. It means any person voting for another or tunnelling another would be scum if the person they voted for flipped scum and you completely discount the fact that they could be town voting for someone they though was scum and were correct.

[Wisdom]

So there's a good chance that one of Wisdom/Wge is scum. Wisdom surprisingly doesn't feel town. Also I'm disliking his read on me because I think it's pure bullshit.

UNVOTE: Acyron

Tell me more, Mala. You're still not talking to me.

[Wisdom]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

[blindmewithscience]

The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

Can you please clarify this for me? You are leaning towards the assumption being correct that wgeurts is a frustrated townie but you also think he leans scum? Which one is it? I agree that wgeurts needs to get back in here and answer for himself.

Wow, a major typo. I meant to say that I believe that the assumption made by the pro-wgeurts side is INCORRECT, as I've stated before-I don't think that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. But I want more info directly from wgeurts. My bad. I'm blaming technology
In summary of this whole thing: Because the argument against Wisdom is based on wgeurts being town (which I believe to be incorrect), it follows that Wisdom is town.

You also said this in 310

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

But now you think the wagon and reasoning behind it is wrong? What made you change your mind?

I believe that the Wisdom wagon is "more incorrect" than the wgeurts wagon. I understand the scumread for both wgeurts and Wisdom, though IMO the case against wgeurts is much stronger. And because IMO a Wisdom/wgreurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely, and I'm more suspicious of wgeurts, it follows that Wisdom must be town. I'd say that this transition started to happen for me around 325, where I began to realize the town divisions. With these town divisions came the (now obvious) realization that wgeurts and Wisdom were likely opposites, leading to my present conclusions, as I've stated above. Hope this all makes sense.

Also, I liked your 325 at first but in addition to your other posts, I can see you do a lot of recapping of events that have occurred in your posts. You are playing things safe and fencesitting on a lot of issues. Your admonishment of me for how I handled mathdino's case in 310 really was not adding anything to the conversation either. It seemed somewhat opportunistic also.

[...]

What more do you need to hear from me specifically regarding a good defense that I have not already said?

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).
About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.
And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

[SilverWolf]

Some basic reads-

Mala and N-M

-null-not enough content

Blindedmewithscience

-I would like to hear a response to my 391 before sorting him one way or the other. But that post also outlines my suspicions of him a little bit.

acryon

-despite the earlier problems I mentioned in 377, upon further review of his ISO I can see many of his posts as coming from a town mindset, so he is leaning town for now

wisdom

-explained

Newbie

-getting a newb town feel

wgeurts

-while I was pretty convinced he was newb-town, his absence from the thread for several days is making me wonder if this is correct, he needs to answer for himself

FinnLaw

-303 strike's me as very town and 253 looks town also.

mathdino

-I don't like tunnels-I can see this coming from town or scum, while his posts look detailed, effort is not indicative of alignment and he seems all too willing to give blindmewithscience a pass simply for sharing the same thought process as he does-to be determined

Oops, I was getting ready to go to bed and saw that I had VDA and TTH written down and not added to this list.

VDA-I like 213 and 356 that lean town but need to see more.

TTH-need to see more but I like 130 that looks town

OK, with that I think I've gotten everyone.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

[SilverWolf]

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).

About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.

And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

I will admit I was in a bad mood when I wrote this 385 in response to 384. I'll respond to 384 in a separate post. Hold on.

[SilverWolf]

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).

About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.

And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

I will admit I was in a bad mood when I wrote this 385 in response to 384. I'll respond to 384 in a separate post. Hold on.

It will take too long to do this tonight and it is actually acroyn's 360. I will respond to it tomorrow. I think some of these issues have already been addressed in my recent posts but if anything hasn't, I'll do it then. It's late and I'm tired.

[FinnLaw]

Just a quick thought I wanted to put out there. While Mathdino seems to be the biggest scum hunter so far, his posts are very detailed and analytical. I am finding Mathdino's voting suspicious. It's very wishy washy. His vote has changed 3 times in one real time day (yesterday).

What do people think about Mathdino's posting?

@Mathdino, I see you've asked for my views on the Silver discussion. I'll get back to you later tonight with where I stand on it. Need to check whether something Silver claimed is true or not.

[Wisdom]

I don't mind the vote changes. If anything, scum are usually more sticky with their votes.

[Mathdino]

Not much to say on the last bout of posts. I want to point out to Silver that I don't find voting scum scummy, and I don't find voting town scummy, it's all dependent on the context. The "Let's assume Wisdom is scum" started as a thought experiment on my part after Newbie claimed that you being town relies on Wisdom being scum.
I'm also not giving blindme a free pass because I agree with him; I have a townread on him because I find his thought process townish. You'll note that I did point out the slight buddying and IIoA, but I'm willing to discount that on account of his experience level. IIoA is fairly common for people's first few games.

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?
I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why it's unlikely that a wgeurts lynch will happen. We have plenty of time left and even a slot who hasn't posted.

[FinnLaw]

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?

I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

I just looked at my post again and it does read like I don't like detailed/analytical posts ha.

They might be harder and longer to read sometimes but no I actually do like them. They provide a deeper insight and I feel there beneficial to the town. It shows your willingness to scum hunt and that your actually invested in the game.

[SilverWolf]

Not much to say on the last bout of posts. I want to point out to Silver that I don't find voting scum scummy, and I don't find voting town scummy, it's all dependent on the context. The "Let's assume Wisdom is scum" started as a thought experiment on my part after Newbie claimed that you being town relies on Wisdom being scum.
I'm also not giving blindme a free pass because I agree with him; I have a townread on him because I find his thought process townish. You'll note that I did point out the slight buddying and IIoA, but I'm willing to discount that on account of his experience level. IIoA is fairly common for people's first few games.

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?
I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

Of course you don't have anything to say on the last round of posts because you have decided that no matter what I say, that you are going to stick with me as scum regardless. I also find you are giving others who have contributed far less a pass for very little reasoning. And you have very little to say on the ones who have barely contributed but are expecting me to give more than I have time for right now frankly. I think there is something else going on here that is causing you to dislike me other than just looking for scum. I just haven't figured out which mindset it is coming from yet.

Your insistence that a wgeurts lynch won't happen and an insistence that mine has to now or the next day is bizarre at best. Your earlier posts linking me to Wisdom regardless of his flip means you have boxed me into a no-win situation that frankly, like I said, I don't have time to deal with.

I've already revisited wgeurts and if he continues to stay away from the thread, I am considering voting for him.

I'm not finding your entire thought process extremely difficult to figure out if it is a town or scum mindset. Your posts may be detailed but effort is not indicative of alignment as a wise person once told me.

I'm also willing to consider that scum are among those who haven't posted much or at all.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

[acryon]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

I would much prefer a SilverWolf lynch, but if that can't get going then I do think wgeurts is the next best.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

This post to me reads like an opportunity to kill the momentum on his own wagon by adding onto the existing wgeurts wagon.

Just a quick thought I wanted to put out there. While Mathdino seems to be the biggest scum hunter so far, his posts are very detailed and analytical. I am finding Mathdino's voting suspicious. It's very wishy washy. His vote has changed 3 times in one real time day (yesterday).

What do people think about Mathdino's posting?

@Mathdino, I see you've asked for my views on the Silver discussion. I'll get back to you later tonight with where I stand on it. Need to check whether something Silver claimed is true or not.

it is completely fine. MathDino is super super town IMO. He is doing actual scum-hunting, and his vote-switching just shows his desire to let multiple people feel the pressure, which is good.

I don't see why it's unlikely that a wgeurts lynch will happen. We have plenty of time left and even a slot who hasn't posted.

Here is the problem with the wgeurts lynch. Everyone thinks he is playing very scummy and saying very scummy things. In fact, I'm suspicious of anyone who seems totally convinced that he is definitely town, because I don't think anyone should be able to say confidently at this point that he is. However, despite everyone thinking he is doing scummy things, not many people really think he is actually scum. Newbie's just throw everything off, and I know personally I am constantly questioning my newbie reads.

I'm not saying this is damning, but wgeurts has been on and posting actively in other threads since his last post on here, but hasn't posted here. This could be him recognizing that by stepping away he could let someone else (SilverWolf) take some heat and hopefully his wagon would die down.

[acryon]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

[Wisdom]

There's no reason to believe it won't exist in the remainder of the day though. It's not like we're at deadline.

[SilverWolf]

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

I would much prefer a SilverWolf lynch, but if that can't get going then I do think wgeurts is the next best.

Revisiting wgeurts-181 and 182are horrible and I am wondering if scum would be so blatant about 182 but it was extremely scummy. Many of his posts in his defense of himself to mathdino I can totally relate to as are his emotional responses. 264 looks like a town post. 287 I can completely understand. 288 was scummy as hell.

Yeah, So this is a tough read. I feel he is frustrated town but some of his posts are so scummy that it's hard to ignore. Not sure here. Would like him to come back to the thread.

This post to me reads like an opportunity to kill the momentum on his own wagon by adding onto the existing wgeurts wagon.

Or it's the fact that I'm willing to revisit wgeurts due to his not posting here for a few days now and when I was doing my reads last night I was re-looking at his posts to see if they could come from town or scum. Frankly, I can see either with most of them.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

[acryon]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

386 is a good example of where the town is at generally. I think it would be hard for wgeurts to do anything even scummier than he has done so far, so I doubt new actions by him will change much of the case. At this point, you either think wgeurts' scummy actions are probably scum, or you think they are probably town. I don't think many people are truly on the fence. Either you are willing to vote the kind of play from that kind of player, or you're not at this point. That's my thoughts at least. Reading back over this, it is kind of confusing, but I'm trying to say that basically there is a small chance someone is going to "connect the dots" with wgeurts posts and crack the case wide open. It kind of is what it is at this point.

[SilverWolf]

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

There is no reason to believe a wgeurts lynch won't happen today. Your logic is faulty.

I disagree. I think it is reasonably likely that, at this point in time, the momentum doesn't exist for a wgeurts lynch.

I'm not sure where you come up with that idea since we have a week or more until deadline and several haven't contributed enough yet to even determine where they stand yet.

386 is a good example of where the town is at generally. I think it would be hard for wgeurts to do anything even scummier than he has done so far, so I doubt new actions by him will change much of the case. At this point, you either think wgeurts' scummy actions are probably scum, or you think they are probably town. I don't think many people are truly on the fence. Either you are willing to vote the kind of play from that kind of player, or you're not at this point. That's my thoughts at least. Reading back over this, it is kind of confusing, but I'm trying to say that basically there is a small chance someone is going to "connect the dots" with wgeurts posts and crack the case wide open. It kind of is what it is at this point.

Yeah, he's said some scummy things no doubt. Some of his posts look like frustrated newbtown also. Just because I haven't committed to a vote yet and want to hear more from him, in no way means I am never going to vote for him. I would not allow a NL to happen on D1 regardless if it came to that and there's a week left.

[acryon]

Yeah, he's said some scummy things no doubt. Some of his posts look like frustrated newbtown also. Just because I haven't committed to a vote yet and want to hear more from him, in no way means I am never going to vote for him. I would not allow a NL to happen on D1 regardless if it came to that and there's a week left.

Well I don't think anyone is saying it's between a NL and wgeurts, because I think we would all accept a deadline wgeurts lynch over a NL. But I think the idea is that at this point in time, it certainly seems that the traction isn't there for a lynch-proper.