Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[SilverWolf]

Yeah, I know acryon but votes can change.

@mod

-Is The Undertaker being replaced?

[Wisdom]

He is, the mod said so already

[SilverWolf]

Oops, never mind. I missed the mod comment in the last post count.

@mod

-disregard, sorry

[Mathdino]

Of course you don't have anything to say on the last round of posts because you have decided that no matter what I say, that you are going to stick with me as scum regardless. I also find you are giving others who have contributed far less a pass for very little reasoning. And you have very little to say on the ones who have barely contributed but are expecting me to give more than I have time for right now frankly. I think there is something else going on here that is causing you to dislike me other than just looking for scum. I just haven't figured out which mindset it is coming from yet.

I think this is unnecessary and unwarranted. It's called observation. No matter what I do, given current activity, you're not in danger of being lynched in at least a couple IRL days. I've asked all I want to ask, so now I'm going to sit back and watch what you do when you're not being attacked and rethink my suspicion if it comes to that. You're much scummier when you're being attacked. But hey, since you seem so insistent on fighting me, let it be known that you asked for it...

Once again, I don't care how much reasoning or how many words you post if it's not original. I found (as laid out in my case) that literally everything you said before the case was unoriginal. Literally everything you said before you gave your reads was either unoriginal, AtE, or OMGUSing. Do I expect you to talk more? (No, Ms. Bond, I expect you to die) No, but I found it pretty glaring when out of all the talking you did, everything was based off of someone else's reads/evidence/reasoning.

First of all, someone else doing something doesn't make it okay. Second of all, name names instead of throwing out a general deflection like that. Who isn't contributing that I should go after? Mala's posted new thoughts. TTH was the first one to suspect Wisdom and NM. Finn just replaced in. blindmewithscience is very clearly trying to contribute. And NM is on friggin V/LA; you want me to go after him for it?
If you're referring to wgeurts, I'm happy going after him, thanks. Why no names? Are you afraid to throw out more suspicions than you already have?

If I'm town, why would I dislike you other than looking for scum? I dislike VIs, trolls, and self hammerers. You're not any of these.
Which leads into my point that I'm not too comfortable with your fencesitting on the topic of me. I'd probably have felt better about you if you went after both me AND Wisdom off the bat instead of picking on the guy with a wagon and not the guy with no votes. Yet you continue to attempt to discredit me. Discrediting without actually suspecting is pointless as town but useful for scum; allows one to create dissent without getting the glame for it.

@Wisdom, acryon: I agree with acryon on the momentum of the wgeurts wagon. Too many people seem unwilling to lynch wgeurts unless it's near the deadline, and I'd prefer a more voluntary lynch where people ACTUALLY suspect the guy they're voting. Easier for wagon analysis. But hey, prove me wrong. It'll be good to hear from NM and Undertaker's replacement.

[SilverWolf]

Great, I think much of what you say to me isn't necessary and unwarranted. I am at the point where I don't want to deal with you any more. Make of it what you will. RL has become a lot busier also and I just don't have the time for this any more.

[Mathdino]

By the way, you forgot to respond to 384 like blindme asked. Don't let my utter lack of thoughts on you distract you.

Edit: Never mind then. But seriously, I didn't ask you to spend your time responding to what wasn't even an attack on my part. If you want to attack my logic, then I absolutely will defend it. Or rethink it if I say something idiotic. But mostly defend it. I'd invite you to continue posting reads and do whatever you were doing rather than picking a fight if that stresses you out.

Good luck IRL.

[Mathdino]

Guys, I'd like to hear more thoughts on Silver's behaviour since getting attacked.

I'm generally not very good with emotional

people

players

because I am a robot

so I'd really appreciate some input here so I don't end up assuming everything emotional is

stupid and illogical

AtE.

[FinnLaw]

Which is why I think we need more discussion on Silver. Paging

blindmewithscience

,

FinnLaw

,

Malakittens

, and

TTH

. Finn and TTH in particular since they've posted since my case and haven't discussed at all yet.

One of the reasons Silver is being attacked is due to people claiming she hasn't provided anything original. The issue for Silver is that she is being attacked for this but the several people attacking her are attacking her with similar views so she feels that one thing applies to her but not to others.

I kind of get why she feels like this but I think it depends on how far you look back into the game. People might share similar views every now and again, and it is ok for Silver to share similar views with people but it becomes an issue when a player provides nothing substantial which is original. So I understand it that Mathdino and Wisdom etc feel that with Silver she has sheeped other people's views too far and hasn't provided anything substantial. Right now I agree she has been sharing other peoples views. But is it sheeping? I don't know if Silver has posted anything substantial which is original, honestly I haven't looked back far enough, it seems like such a hard job.

Right now, I'm not necessarily sold on the sheeping argument (that could change if I read up more and decide she hasn't provided enough original content.)

But I haven't liked Silver's defence/response. I found at times it was just unhelpful. I get she thought she was having to repeat herself and no one was listening but I didn't like posts where she won't answer a question instead just saying I've already answered ... At least say "I answered that question previously here ..."

Guys, I'd like to hear more thoughts on Silver's behaviour since getting attacked.

I'm generally not very good with emotional

people

players

because I am a robot

so I'd really appreciate some input here so I don't end up assuming everything emotional is

stupid and illogical

AtE.

I didn't like the AtE stuff when reading over, I didn't know the term specifically but those comments when reading them rubbed me the wrong way. At the point when comments such as

I'm seriously questioning even continuing with this game as I don't like spending the majority of my time on defense over accusations that make no sense and that I can't seem to defend myself from because you two aren't going to like anything I say.

That takes all the fun out of the game for me and I can relate even more to what wgeurts was feeling.

.... were made I didn't think that there had been enough pressure at that point to warrant the response. I wasn't at the same level of pressure Wgeurt received in my view.

So there is stuff I don't like coming from Silver such as the AtE but right now I don't know whether Silver has posted anything substantially original. If she hasn't then the sheeping become a bigger issue. But at this moment I'm not near a vote on her.

[TellTaleHeart]

You all seem to have been busy since I was last here.

I see this read is going to take a while as there are quite a few long posts. I'll read and think about the new developments.

[TellTaleHeart]

I just read post 310 and 311 by blindmewithscience (which I will abbreviate to "blind" unless he has any objections). He's not leaving me with a positive impression like he is with Mathdino, apparently. What I extract from the post is that he has a scumread on Wisdom, wgeurts, and Silver Wolf because he points out plenty of things he doesn't like about all of them, but his vote remains on wgeurts. It's easy to point out disjointed things you don't like about someone else's posting, but what's the conclusion at the end of it and do they fit together somehow to make a cohesive picture? I don't see one yet, so I question how genuine these thoughts are.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm back. Before I go on, I want to say that the whole "mason hunting" argument is specious at best. If wgeurts really wanted to out the masons, there are a lot more obviously effective methods to do so, one of which to claim mason himself in order to elicit a counterclaim from a real mason.

[TellTaleHeart]

I went backwards and read post 297. On a fundamental level, I agree with the assertion that there's plenty of motivation to stay out of the spotlight by talking a lot while not

actually

contributing to the discussion. All of Mathdino's points are technically true in that SilverWolf tended to frequently take on the "follower" role.

However

, I'm not sure that this is necessarily intentional in SilverWolf's case. It may be that she was just slower to arrive at these conclusions than everyone else or it might be that she likes repeating other people's points in order to feel like part of the group.

If SilverWolf really is scum, I'm very troubled, because that means I went horribly wrong somewhere in my methods earlier in the game. One of my townreads is wrong, and therefore,

all

of them need to be called into question. Also, since SilverWolf and Wisdom being scum together is a pretty implausible and untenable theory, it would disrupt my fairly comfortable view of this game so far. I don't really

want

to believe SilverWolf is scum, but that might be out of personal convenience or pride on my part.

[TellTaleHeart]

He is not obviously newbtown at all imo. He is faking it and it's working. There is a fine difference between actual newbtowns and scum faking them that you see with experience.

What exactly is your argument here, Wisdom? I see that wgeurt's join date is September 16th of this year, which is very recent. How can that be faked? More specifically how can you argue that he would go so far as to replicate newbie meta when he wasn't a newbie? To me, this deception would seem to run to ridiculous and profound levels.

[TellTaleHeart]

I just read post 323 (by SilverWolf) and it came of as very genuine to me. I'm still reading her as town.

Okay, so I was going to say I didn't like BMWS, but his last set of posts I actually like.

I would be

very

interested in what you liked about them. It would be expedient to eliminate someone from my Process of Elimination pool.

I would also like to know where I might be going wrong with Victor because I'm reading him as town, Malakittens.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm just now to page 15. I'm so slow.

For a reason I'm not

entirely

sure of, I don't really feel good about post 354 from acryon. I'm in lock-step with him on the wgeurts read, but I can't really follow the attack on SilverWolf, which troubles me. Are appeals to emotion really characteristic of scum? I've used it myself as town (unintentionally, of course) before.

The only issue that I think may be worth pointing out is that wgeurts sort of kept doing his own thing until mala stepped in and posted this. This psot from her seemed to cause his turn-around, so it reads to me like it could possibly be coaching. Although I think there is a

very

small chance that this is actually the case, I think it is worth noting.

I could see this. Mala has been distant and has avoided interacting with me, which might well be a scumtell for her since she knows I can read her. Wouldn't surprise me if she's scum with wgeurts.

You two have a history (which allows you to read each other well)?
Malakittens, is this true?

I'm reading post 360 by acryon and I'm very confused. For one, the last post he links (247) is not to a Silver Wolf post at all, it's to a Newbie post. Overall, this seems to be an echo of Mathdino's case, which is that Silver Wolf is a sheep (ironic, a Wolf in a sheep's clothes, I know).

Post 365 by Victor, I don't really care for, which is troubling to me since I had him as a townread.
Those questions seem pretty pointless to me.

And the trend continues with post 370. I don't care for this because I really don't know what he's talking about. What counter-attack to acryon does he speak of and what is this theory game? I don't follow.

I'm now to page 16.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm to post 375 and I'm

really

questioning my townread on Victor and that's

really

annoying me. Do these questions lead anywhere or are they just filler to make yourself look town? Why does it matter what Silver's opinion of acryon is? If I had to guess, she'll probably say he's misguided town and be done with it. Is there some kind of inconsistency you're trying to catch her out on or what? I'm completely missing it if so.

Liking blindme for town for reasons already pointed out. Thought process seems fairly natural.

Well, sir, I will have to heartily disagree with you because the preceding post does absolutely nothing for me. The "assumption that wgeurts is a frustrated townie" is "correct," but from that, a scumread on wgeurts somehow emerges. That seems absolutely bananas to me. I cannot follow.

Also I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah...

I agree with this. I'm actually comfortable enough to take him out of my PoE pool.

I'm to page 17 now:

Mathdino, I could see SilverWolf being town actually. There is a passion in her defenses that makes me think they might be genuine. I also think that as scum she would more try to appease you than antagonise you.

I feel wgeurts is the much better choice for today.

I agree with this regarding Silver Wolf, and I'm actually having a few doubts about my Wisdom vote because that would have been the perfect opportunistic avenue for him to take if he were scum and SilverWolf is town.

[blindmewithscience]

I just read post 310 and 311 by blindmewithscience (which I will abbreviate to "blind" unless he has any objections). He's not leaving me with a positive impression like he is with Mathdino, apparently. What I extract from the post is that he has a scumread on Wisdom, wgeurts, and Silver Wolf because he points out plenty of things he doesn't like about all of them, but his vote remains on wgeurts. It's easy to point out disjointed things you don't like about someone else's posting, but what's the conclusion at the end of it and do they fit together somehow to make a cohesive picture? I don't see one yet, so I question how genuine these thoughts are.

My vote stands on wgeurts for the same reason that I originally put it on--for pressure. Still no posts from him for the past 2 days, with no response at all to teh questions directly asked of him. My vote is also kept on wgeurts because his case is stronger than Wisdom's and Silver's. As the scummiest person IMO, he's still the one I need to vote for.
And for your conclusion statement, I think that my 387 and 406 show those (as I don't think you've gotten to that point yet in your reading )

I'm back. Before I go on, I want to say that the whole "mason hunting" argument is specious at best. If wgeurts really wanted to out the masons, there are a lot more obviously effective methods to do so, one of which to claim mason himself in order to elicit a counterclaim from a real mason.

While other masonfishing methods may be more effective, it still doesn't explain why he was doing this at all. A terrible attempt at masonfishing is still an attempt, and so I suspect him for that.

[TellTaleHeart]

Wow, a major typo. I meant to say that I believe that the assumption made by the pro-wgeurts side is INCORRECT, as I've stated before-I don't think that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. But I want more info directly from wgeurts. My bad. I'm blaming technology
In summary of this whole thing: Because the argument against Wisdom is based on wgeurts being town (which I believe to be incorrect), it follows that Wisdom is town.

OK. I'm still left with a few questions, the main one being "why is the assumption incorrect?" You can't just flippantly categorize it as that, there has to be

something

behind it.

I continue to not be impressed by blind's posting, mostly because there's a distinct lack of deconstruction or evaluation of arguments on his own part. On a fundamental level, it avoids accountability, which I see a lot of scum motivation for and not much town motivation for.

[TellTaleHeart]

And for your conclusion statement, I think that my 387 and 406 show those (as I don't think you've gotten to that point yet in your reading )

Well I must be really tired right now or something because I still don't understand what the end point for you is.

While other masonfishing methods may be more effective, it still doesn't explain why he was doing this at all. A terrible attempt at masonfishing is still an attempt, and so I suspect him for that.

My point is that it's more indicative of someone who (falsely) believes that the masons claiming would somehow be a good thing (even though, strategically, it obviously isn't).

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm finally caught up on the thread (apologies for the multiple posts, but I thought it would be better than a large wall; plus I didn't want to lose my work to an accidental window closing out or browser crash). Apologies for the sub par writing too, but it's 10 pm at night and I really don't have the energy to reread and edit my own posts right now.

I'd really

like

to make myself happy with a FinnLaw townread because I like him / what he has to say, but there's not really a rational reason for it. I don't really know what his problem is with Silver Wolf and I'll have to figure that out in time.

Summary:
I'm mainly scumreading Wisdom and blind right now though I have major questions about Victor. I'm townreading Silver Wolf and acryon in addition to all the townreads I previously stated (minus Victor).
I'm also having doubts about my Wisdom scumread mostly due to his treatment of Silver Wolf, but I'll have to mull it over some more.

[blindmewithscience]

Alright then.
I believe that wgeurts leans scum because:

Main Points

1. Masonfishing. While I agree with your point in you previous post that he

could

be someone who believes that masonfishing was somehow good, this point doesn't work for me because wgeurts was explicitly told not to masonfish, such as in 187, before pushing a masonclaim in 288. Your argument in favor of him isn't working well one for me.
2. Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.
Other, weaker points (including some made by other players)
3. His weird voting. The quite rapid unvoting of himself (which I agree he should have done), his voting near the beginning of the game.
4. Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games (check his post history).
I want a response to 1 and 2 (and maybe 4) when (if?) returns.


Now for my entire conclusion:
We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

[Malakittens]

Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.

Wisdom and wge will not be scum together. I could see Silver scum.

Is it really bad that I keep confusing TTH & BWMS' posts as one player.

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

Wisdom explain why I should be townreading you?

[SilverWolf]

Now for my entire conclusion:
We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

First, How common is it for scum to blatantly defend their partners in these games knowing it will be linked back to them because I haven't seen it.

You are referring to 360 and it is inexplicably bad. Worse than mathdino's case. The AtE that everyone is bringing up is actually the frustration I was feeling. It's been elaborated on already. Most of this is him sheeping mathdino and then pulling a few more of my quotes and saying they are bad because he disagrees with my reasoning. A lot of this is me asking a question or responding to one asked of me or elaborating on a point and his criticism of it was mostly him not liking how I answer questions or points I made and this boils down to his opinion that they didn't add anything when clearly they did. One of the posts was me answering a question and he even found fault with that. He also had a problem with a question I asked of him, like me asking questions is somehow wrong also. Basically he's finding fault with the majority of my posts for no real reason.

He is just repeating mathdino's criticism and it is unwarranted. Further proof of this is what he put at the end of that post. He is attributing 247 to me and saying it has no original content when I didn't even make that post. That was a post by Newbie. So when he's searching for anything he can find to build a case, however weak, he pulls this post from Newbie and attributes it to me but says nothing to her about it. This just proves, that he is reaching and stretching to build a case that has no merit.

[SilverWolf]

Wge would have to be really ballsy scum and be confident that his partners are good at playing scum to intentionally mason fish in thread.

Wisdom and wge will not be scum together. I could see Silver scum.

Is it really bad that I keep confusing TTH & BWMS' posts as one player.

Anyways townreads in no order {Mathdino, Finnlaw, TTH, BWMS} leaning town {N_M & Wge}

Wisdom explain why I should be townreading you?

N_M has barely posted any content so why is that a town lean?

4 posts, 2 explaining low activity and going V/LA.

The other two are these 61 and 72 which shows a question to someone and one post giving his opinion on wgeurts.

[Wisdom]

I see that wgeurt's join date is September 16th of this year, which is very recent.

Join dates don't matter. He might have tons of experience off-site. He might even be an alt. As long as someone is playing outside the newbie queue, newbie excuses cease to exist.