Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Not_Mafia]

@Mod The formatting issue in 521 is caused by having a spoiler tag in a quote? Could you fix this?

~mod note:what was once brokt is now fixt. What was once a double post is now a single post.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Furthermore, as I said before, I was having a real hard time seeing a Victor/[insert any of my suspects here] scumteam. I've ISO'd him. If you want to convince me he's scum, then build a case instead of tunneling.

Lucifer told me to vote him, under the misconception you're his scum buddy. I see that isn't as likely as I once thought.

Brother, I'm not responding to your questions because whatever I post on Silver will be much less detailed then the case I wrote on her. I want you to read it. On wgeurts, blindmewithscience pretty much summed up all the reasons I have. My major one was mason-fishing.

That's the thing. I think you were pushing a hard-bus on silverwolf.

My guts really strong on this one, and so is the lord's.

Sorry, you want me to lynch someone who's replacing out? There's no pressure left to put on Silver, no posts left to analyse, and thus no lynch to push. I'm very much going to scrutinise her replacement though.

These two statements contradict each other. You're saying you can't pressure silverwolf further, but you're definitely going to pressure his replacement. Why remove your vote, if you simply want to pressure the slot. It doesn't make much sense, does it?

Constantine, the majority of the town is townreading me and a good few are townreading Victor

I honestly do not care. The majority opinion is only relevant when we're nearing the deadline.
The objective opinion does not change my read on you. Which to be quite honest, is really strong.
I really want to smite you, so hell yeah I'm going to tunnel. Tunneling a scum read is actually a

good

thing to do.

Please take a leap of faith with me here guy's. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about
VOTE: Mathdino

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@Children, Please read back through Mathdino's ISO, or posts in general. Things I want people to study are his...
1. RVS Interactions
2. Push on SilverWolf
3. Intent behind his blocks of text

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Is this MathDino's first game as scum? He's displaying traits normal of a newb scum player, but I may have to change my reads a little if that's not the case. Is he an alt?

[TellTaleHeart]

I wouldn't say I find parts of his activity redeeming; I just don't find the other pieces damning. The main reasons I see for the wagon on him are due to the way he was pushing the wgeurts lynch. Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see scum being at the head of a wagon like wgeurts'. To anyone that feels wgeurts is town, I would be far more suspicious of both Victor and Blindmewithscience. It is almost always the subtle pushing that is by scum, not the hard pushing that Wisdom is doing.

There's a disconnect here for me to where I don't understand why your reads are the way they are.

The assertion that scum will

never

lead a wagon seems bananas to me. It's an absolute and it doesn't sound right, especially considering the wgeurts push itself. It's the same tired, belabored points about the self-vote and "masonfishing," whatever that's come to mean. I don't think either of those points made a good case because they're superficial and don't stand up to scrutiny. That doesn't seem to matter to Wisdom, though, and they never receive any kind of critical examination or explanation from him.

Take a quick look through Wisdom's ISO and tell me what kind of town goal he's working towards here. He's hammering on the same points on wgeurts and demanding explanations from everyone else all the while not actually engaging with anyone in any productive way.

Let me remind you that this is the same person who got mad at me after my first post for not "engaging" him.

If this "engage people" thing is

really

his philosophy, I would expect to see a lot more of it and more importantly, I would expect to see products of this process in the form of more refined reads. Instead I see some mealy-mouth rhetoric with Malakittens and softballing of blindmewithscience. There's no commentary on how he thinks the game is going as a whole and the questions he

does

ask lack impact. There's plenty of scum motivation for talking a lot without actually contributing to town progress, which is what I think Wisdom has been doing all game.

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

That isn't how mafia works, child. It is you who must prove he's scum.
The problem is that many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do.
Lord only knows this isn't the truth.

Mafia is a game of psychological analysis. Like any game where someone has something to veil, the only way to know someone is scum is to trust in your...

Game Theory and Social Theory

Is wisdom someone who conveys the traits of an exemplary soldier of god? No, he really doesn't, but nothing he's done has really been outside what I would expect from a human, who adhere's to basic principals in human nature. Try to walk in wisdom's shoes. If you can imagine one possible scenario where he could of said something as a townie with nothing to hide, then you're really understanding how this game is played.

I will submit, I haven't read wisdom's ISO, and as a patient servant of our lord, I have no trouble doing that. I just haven't found anything strikingly odd from what I have read.

[Mathdino]

That's the thing. I think you were pushing a hard-bus on silverwolf.

My guts really strong on this one, and so is the lord's.

How fast exactly did you skim through my ISO on her? You've given no reasoning whatsoever that that's the case. I was reading Silver as town because she seemed pretty reasonable but then when I actually decided to ISO everyone, I realised something was off, particularly the sheer number of "I agree"s.
Also, do you really think Silver's reaction is that of scum being bussed by me?

These two statements contradict each other. You're saying you can't pressure silverwolf further, but you're definitely going to pressure his replacement. Why remove your vote, if you simply want to pressure the slot. It doesn't make much sense, does it?

Because I don't know how long the replacement is going to take and I don't want to waste my time or my vote. Took pretty long to replace Undertaker. Also I want to give the replacement a chance, because I want to play fair.
Let's hear your psychological analysis. How do you see me unvoting Silver as a scum move?

Constantine, the majority of the town is townreading me and a good few are townreading Victor

I honestly do not care. The majority opinion is only relevant when we're nearing the deadline.
The objective opinion does not change my read on you. Which to be quite honest, is really strong.
I really want to smite you, so hell yeah I'm going to tunnel. Tunneling a scum read is actually a

good

thing to do.

You misunderstand me; I'm not trying to change your read since you haven't told me where the hell it came from. What I'm trying to say is you're going to have to actually provide reasoning more than "Let's lynch this guy!" if you want anyone to listen to you. And at the moment, you're doing a terrible job of both communicating and scumhunting, with the exception of (I assume) you thinking Silver is scum, in which case congratulations on that.

And no, tunneling a scumread is a terrible thing to do. Blinds you to alternatives and makes it easy to ignore what the town is saying, resulting in bad communication.

And how exactly am I playing like newbscum? No, I have 0 scum meta. I played my first 3 games like shit a year ago so I'd take those with a grain of salt. If you want some basic indication of my style, check out Guardians mafia.

[blindmewithscience]

I don't like you, Constantine.

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

That isn't how mafia works, child. It is you who must prove he's scum.
The problem is that many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do.
Lord only knows this isn't the truth.
[...]

I will submit, I haven't read wisdom's ISO, and as a patient servant of our lord, I have no trouble doing that. I just haven't found anything strikingly odd from what I have read.

1. NO. That is exactly how mafia works. You don't prove ONLY scum or ONLY town. To me, everyone is a null. You then MUST PROVE LOGICALLY how they lean scum or town. Just No. Don't default to everyone being a townie. This is completely naive. If you can't prove something, then the argument is invalid.
2. You haven't ISO'd him, and yet you're nearly certain of his towniness? If you haven't read, then you're as good as dead. PLease go back and do a careful (NOT SKIM) read of a lot of the past.

I'm also not a big fan of "democratic" mafia. The kingdom of god is a theocracy, people just get in the way of justice.
The chances of actually catching scum through...
A) Cooperation
B) Authority Figure's
... are about 100% guaranteed.

I dont want other people's opinions, because unless what you're saying is very thoughtful, it is just clutter which confuses decision making.

I would like to lynch Vincent or Mathdino today, and am not to eager to look for alternatives. Let's just get the job done. With that said, if you haven't clarified your RFV (Reason for vote) yet, now is the time to do so.

1. You don't want other people's opinions? WHAT? Legitimately. Everyone is part of this game. Everyone has something to say. We are a GROUP making a decision, NOT playing "follow this one guy".
2. Not eager to look for alternatives? You haven't given any reasons. I will not be convinced to change my reads simply because you have said you've put your faith in God. This is absolutely terrible IMO (not trying to be derogatory, but this is what it is...)

I usually don't explain my reads or thoughts until many questions have been asked. Most people on this site suck at playing mafia, or let their ego's drive their decision making.
Everyone's so sure that they know who scum is, that no one's willing to cooperate. I would like to cooperate, and I would like to win this game. Please help me do that.
If you want my statement, you're going to need to give it some time. Lord know's we have plenty of it. I always like seeing what others think of my vote

before

I tell them why I chose it. It really defeats the purpose to feed reasoning scum can easily refute. Encouraging people to think for themselves goes a mile longer than me telling them why to follow my lead.
With that said,

why do you think I might be scum reading him

?
God grace's to you, and hopefully you understand my position better.

If you ask people what they think your reasoning is, it makes us think that you don't have any reasoning at all. This isn't helping your goal of "wanting to win this game", unless you're scum. And "feeding reasoning scum can easily refute?" If anyone can eassily refute something, then it's not a good argument. We need to see your argument so that we can say if it's valid.

If anything, you've given even less reasoning than the person you replaced. You're not really helping town. You are now the better candidate to lynch.
VOTE: St Constantine the Hermit
I'll unvote if you can start posting actual content with actual reasons and actual arguments, and stop posting this ton of nonsense.

Constatine:

Are there records of your previous games anywhere? You say you've played before. If so, give a link please. I'd like more info on you.
Sorry if this is harsh, but it's what looks like the truth to me. And Sorry for textwall and rant.

[Mathdino]

He's an alt that made the account to do the whole roleplay schtick. He's not helping the town but a PL really doesn't help us here either.

And he's following the old site meta of everyone being insanely arrogant and telling everyone to sheep them. He's not scum for it.

[blindmewithscience]

He's an alt that made the account to do the whole roleplay schtick. He's not helping the town but a PL really doesn't help us here either.

And he's following the old site meta of everyone being insanely arrogant and telling everyone to sheep them. He's not scum for it.

o.o
Didn't know that this was a site meta. Gah, so bad. But I would GREATLY APPRECIATE if you stopped. Seriously, please.

[Mathdino]

I'm exaggerating of course and that's mostly gone now, but a lot of players were like that if you read older games. I'm assuming Const is one of them; he at least very much reminds me of it.

wgeurts read in a sec.

[Wisdom]

I would like to lynch Vincent or Mathdino today, and am not to eager to look for alternatives. Let's just get the job done. With that said, if you haven't clarified your RFV (Reason for vote) yet, now is the time to do so.

This doesn't sound like you'd like to cooperate with people like you claimed. And are you really asking for people for reasoning when you refuse to give yours?

[Wisdom]

Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

Another one talking about connections in a mason setup. Seriously stop it.

[Wisdom]

Got to page 9, if wgeurts is faking a newb town it's a persona he's carried to the whole site, which I seriously doubt.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Good point. After seeing his "what is a scummy" question and other MD posts I kinda started doubting myself.

[Wisdom]

not actually engaging with anyone

Is there a reason for this quite obvious misrep?

[Wisdom]

Not a fan of a Constantine wagon. He's annoying and even hypocritical, but he's most likely town.

Let's do this instead

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

[wgeurts]

I'' finding it ironic that blindmewith

science

disagrees with constantine.

[Mathdino]

Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

Another one talking about connections in a mason setup. Seriously stop it.

Damn, I didn't notice this, good catch. He even said that we should stop talking about masons when the thing that started that discussion was wgeurts's associative tells.

And damn again, Not_Mafia's statement was like a wham moment for the whole wgeurts case, considering I have been seeing him around the site a bit.
Ugh. I really want to vote Silver's slot again, but I really doubt there'll be a replacement for her anytime soon.

Square one. Wisdom, why are you voting Malakittens? Sell me on this, because I'm not seeing it.

I think the associative stuff Wisdom is pointing out is reason enough to do this, though. It comes from a scum mindset and he doesn't have the excuse of being newbtown.
VOTE: Constantine

Edit: You just reminded me to look over TTH and Victor again. Been ignoring them since I started the Silver case. Will let y'all know if I find anything after I take care of my other games.

[Wisdom]

Because I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads. And she won't do so while we ignore her.

[FinnLaw]

After delving deeper into the scripture, I've been enlightened with intriguing news.
Wguert's has the devil's gleam, when he tells us he's a freemason. I'm leaning to believe him, but on the off chance he is possessed by the devil,

wouldn't it be in our best interests to have one freemason claim?

Therefore you confirm wguert's as either being truly a mason, or with a scum buddy.

Scrap that, there's no way Lucifer's fallen angels would be foolish enough to claim to be Freemasons. Otherwise there would be three actual freemason's pushing his lynch.
The lord is simply encouraging me to share my ideas. Just make sure apostles, if wguert's is not a member of the freemasonry, you should speak up so he may receive Scaphism.

As wisdom pointed out, St Constantine has been hinting at the mason setup and Mathdino pointed out that it was St Constatine himself that said we shouldn't be talking about masons.

I remember back to the quote above. While he did turn around his view in the same post I still don't like how he originally wanted one mason to claim.

Will try to read up more later today, havent been as active the past few days.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Wisdom is a saint. Wguert's is a saint. Resitheth the urge to lynch either one of these insolent fools.
I don't mind finishing silverwolf or going for my mathdino wagon, because the lord has it as such.
Did none of you browse his past?

Mathdino has displayed every trait of someone who is playing as a first time scum. RVS was especially odd, with how he interacted with both victordeangelo.
I'm sorry if you feel pointing this out reveals a freemason, but the lord is more confident it will reveal scum. Reading through all of Mathdino's past scripture, I have confirmed that he has a different meta too.
My fear is graver than that. It is the prerogative that he doesn't act like a human, but a demon.

There are two reasons why one shouldn't suspect mathdino though.

Constantine, the majority of the town is townreading me and a good few are townreading Victor. I, for one, came to my Victor conclusion by looking through his posts, and I'd like to think most people did the same for me and him. Asking us why you're voting for who you are is almost worse than acryon answering people's questions for them. I don't mean to be rude, but back yourself up or get out. I'll respond to any actual reasoning you have to offer.

If anything, you've given even less reasoning than the person you replaced. You're not really helping town. You are now the better candidate to lynch.
VOTE: St Constantine the Hermit

Emotion is a town tell. Reactionary voting is as well, except in a few rare cases. Mathdino is reminding me of my younger self in a couple of prominent ways.
UNVOTE: Mathdino
Wguert's: Really is newb town, and is displaying the traits of what you could expect from a a game which promotes hysteria
Wisdom: Is town, because nothing he's done makes sense for someone playing as scum. He reacts like a townie, he picks fights like a townie. He really is a townie.

I do have more suspicion to place on Finnlaw and VictordeAngelo
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@Mathdino- I've been playing mafia long before I joined this site. I don't want people to sheep me, I encourage them to look closely at what I'm saying. Notice I specifically tell people to go back to look at what I'm talking about? People can choose to sheep me, and I encourage them to do just that. I feel I know how to catch scum better than most of you, and that shouldn't be taken as arrogance.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

There is a connection between Mathdino, Victor, and Silverwolf. We already know it isn't a freemason connection, or they wouldn't of pushed wagons at each other.

[Mathdino]

Constantine, if you know how to catch scum better than me, why did you just quote BMWS instead of me when unvoting me? Are you even reading the thread? *Are you even browsing my past?
Furthermore,

@Mathdino- I've been playing mafia long before I joined this site.

I don't want people to sheep me

, I encourage them to look closely at what I'm saying. Notice I specifically tell people to go back to look at what I'm talking about?

People can choose to sheep me, and I encourage them to do just that

. I feel I know how to catch scum better than most of you, and that shouldn't be taken as arrogance.

Well, I'm looking closely at what you're saying. And every other post you say something hypocritical.

What traits does someone display when they're first time scum? What was odd about RVS? Do you have any desire to push your one-man wagon with any reasoning? I feel like you've read this thread less than everyone else here, and the very fact that you're scumreading me with terrible overconfidence when A. you just proved that you can't distinguish me from BMWS, and B. I know that I'm town, calls all your reads into question. I have 0 reason to listen to posts without reason if you proved yourself incapable of scumhunting. We've all read the thread. We're all on the same page (except Not_Mafia, haha). Now show us how your perspective is better than everyone else's.

And yes, this game is nothing like my meta from... 18 months ago... because I was an idiot back then who almost tunneled a townie to death in LyLo and got myself D1 lynched for outright lying to a town.
I'm kinda trying to change that and communicate better. Would you prefer I play like I used to?

[reinoe]