Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Wisdom]

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that Wisdom's goal here is to throw suspicion onto as many people as possible before the day ends.

No, at this point the only thing that is clear is that you're determined to find anything I do scummy in some way or another. First you were arguing that you couldn't tell what my reads are, now that you can, you do your best to undermine them.

[Wisdom]

The "case" on wgeurts is and was always weak. It's your opinion that he was always scummy. Your efforts to present it as some kind of objective, indisputable fact notwithstanding, it's an opinion.

Imo it's a fact that he was always scummy. I cannot imagine how someone in any time and space would not think he was scummy. Well, unless they knew his alignment.

[Wisdom]

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that TTH has been tunneling Wisdom all game for reasons that relate far more to playstyle than actual scumminess

Couldn't say it better myself

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Riddleton

[acryon]

are replacements really null? Isn't it important to also important to consider who they're replacing?

Yes, they are definitely null. Especially since the majority of the time it is due to people recognizing an inability to keep up with the game. Most meta-reads suck, and this is certainly not one of the few that don't.

I was really hoping to get a Constantine lynch because he is my #1 by a good bit over Riddleton. Can we really not get a Constantine lynch going? Because I would

much

rather hear what Riddleton has to say tomorrow after we have a couple flips out of the way, and I'm skeptical of the traction existing at this point for it to get there.

[Mathdino]

The only way we can get a Constantine lynch:

A. Both Victor and Mala decide to vote him, or
B. Someone sucks it up and hammers Constantine just to avoid a NL. Not preferable. At all.

I very much doubt Victor will be active enough for A to be an option. So yeah, it's gonna be between Riddleton and Victor.

[acryon]

The only way we can get a Constantine lynch:

A. Both Victor and Mala decide to vote him, or
B. Someone sucks it up and hammers Constantine just to avoid a NL. Not preferable. At all.

I very much doubt Victor will be active enough for A to be an option. So yeah, it's gonna be between Riddleton and Victor.

Well I am still quite unsure of being able to get 5 (correct me if I'm wrong) people to switch over to the Riddleton wagon in one day. You can consider me a vote if we can get there, but for now I'm going to stick where I'm at.

[TellTaleHeart]

After some thought, I'm reversing my opinion on Wisdom again. I'll talk more about it and other things in a couple hours when I have the chance.

[Mathdino]

1. Mathdino
2. Wisdom
3. Newbie
4. acryon
5. Constantine
6. Not_Mafia (if he's active)

Leaving BMWS, wgeurts, Victor, and Malakittens.
This lynch can happen, we just need the activity levels for it. I trust you'll be on again a few times before the deadline just in case, acryon.

Edit: Goddammit TTH. Okay.

Can you expand on your thoughts/reads on Constantine and Riddleton?

[acryon]

This lynch can happen, we just need the activity levels for it. I trust you'll be on again a few times before the deadline just in case, acryon.

I'll be on for the next 7 hours or so and then again about an hour before deadline, so I'm ready to do what we need to do.

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, (L-6)
St. Constantine The Hermit-blindmewithscience, wgeurts, acryon, (L-4)
Newbie-
Malakittens-
Riddleton-Mathdino, Wisdom (L-5)
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-Not_Mafia, St Constantine The Hermit, Riddleton, TellTaleHeart, Newbie (L-2)
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, malakittens,

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.

Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA
Riddleton is V/

LA

until 11/5/2014

The bowling alley smells like piss! Gross!

[wgeurts]

21 hours, I won't be there by then cus sleep and other reasons.
VOTE: Victor
I would of really preffered a constantine lynch.

[acryon]

I really dislike this Victor lynch. I don't think anyone has a good case for it, and I think that both Constantine/SilverWolf-Riddleton are considerably worse than him. Are we really going to lynch someone for pushing the easy lynch on wgeurts? Most towns I have been a part of lynch the wgeurts-type early on and it is almost

never

led by scum in my experience. Especially day 1, I don't think it makes any sense to push the easy lynch as scum, as it just makes you look terrible if they flip town.

I'll be around at deadline so I can reluctantly hammer so we avoid a NL, but I really hope we can move on Constantine/Riddleton before then.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I would read up but it appears that people want to lynch me instead. Which does save me some time. Is there an intent to hammer?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Otherwise I could read up and post some reads but I could really use the time on my other games.

[acryon]

You should give it here. At least an updated reads list.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I still feel more comfortable lynching victor, and I agree with newbie about their being resistance.
While I'm more than happy to deadline lynch riddleton, there's just this off feeling that it's a counter wagon.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

*there

[Riddleton]

Post your reads, Victor.

[TellTaleHeart]

acryon, could you please restate or summarize why you want a Constantine lynch?

[Riddleton]

Also it's not a scumslip MathDino, it's a silly mistake when tired. You should consider the following:

IF SCUM HERE'S WHAT WOULD HAPPEN:
1) I hypothetically made a slip, got called out on it and started to push my own PL?
2) I then dodged this PL the day all the way into Lylo by arguing "I'm town obviously, we should lynch XYZ"
3) Town would lynch me in LyLo., because it would just be obvious

If you think that's my plan as scum, then well I don't know what to say.

---

IF TOWN:
1) Made a silly mistake, got called out upon it
2) Stated to advocate a PL as to not make it into LyLo. If I make it into LyLo, I would be mislynched for the scum win.

That plan sounds more reasonable to anyone. I want my own PL, but preferably not today, as to not carry this paranoia into later rounds. As I said, me in LyLo would be an instant scum-win, because of my mistake.
I thought this much would be obvious to everyone, but apparently not. A bit disappointed I need to point out this, really.

I'm obviously not going to start pushing my own PL and then back down from it -- that would make no sense and would be obvious-scum behaviour.

[wgeurts]

If victor flips town we lynch constantine next, no questions.

[acryon]

Here is the Constantine story as told by some of my posts in this thread.

acryon, could you please restate or summarize why you want a Constantine lynch?

For the love of all that is good, please make a post that contains some read/reference/information and not just base-less crap. Eloquently worded garbage is still garbage. Be a good townie,

read the thread

, and enlighten us on the conclusions when you get there.

My vote is remaining on Silver, because her replacing out doesn't change the fact that I thought her play was scummy. She is still the scummiest person to me at this point in time, so I'm only going to change my vote to someone I think may be scummier. Although St Constantine is working pretty hard to change that with his mason-comments and general lack of real contribution.

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

Here is the problem though: he is all over the place.

569: Victor is scum with Mathdino, vote victor!
571: Actually, Mathdino and Silverwolf are scum!

Should we lynch thy Mathdino, or thy Silverwolf.

And then unvotes Victor. Why was victor unvoted here and why did a vote for neither Mathdino or Silverwolf take its place?
576: Now the vote comes for Mathdino, Mathdino is definitely scum! Reiterates in 577.
595: Now Mathdino is town because of his emotional response?
597: States connection between Mathdino, Silverwolf, and Victor. So is Dino town or is he on a scum-team with Victor and Silverwolf?

I strongly dislike when players have scum-reads that are

so

dependent on being a team, and I dislike it even more when players then back down on one of these because of something that is certainly not redeeming(an emotional response from Dino). This problem is made worse in the set-up we are playing in, as pointing out connections could be leading scum to the mason-team, which is terrible considering how important it is late-game for us to keep them safe.

So are the three of them scum, or are they not? Which one is the best lynch?

I will be going on a pilgrimage. Apparently what you mafia players would call V/LA.
I'm not scum, I think that one of the three people I accused of being scum, is actually scum.

@Acyron - Being all over the place is a town tell, mate. It is quite common for town to make more accusations than scum, ie, a lot more opinions and new information to be taking in.

Don't tell me how something you are doing is a town-tell; you're not exactly an unbiased source. Even if you were, what you were doing definitely is

not

a town tell. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I would say it's a null, but in your case I'm not sure which way it is leaning. And it's not even about what you're doing being scummy; your flip-flopping and unclear ideas call into question your credibility, which is bad for town.

And you have now multiple times stated your thoughts that 2/3 of those players were inter-connected. And now you're saying

one

of them is scum? I can't be the only one that thinks you denying the idea that you aren't particularly trustworthy is disingenuous at best.

Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role

You're kidding right? If we keep our masons alive, we can get ourselves into a winning scenario much

much

more easily.

@Acyron - I'm serious about that. I think one of the three is scum. This is my belief. If you think it is wrong, tell me why.

I think it is wrong, because your posts regarding the connections between the players seems to indicate otherwise. You're wrong based on your analysis.

There is a connection between Mathdino, Victor, and Silverwolf. We already know it isn't a freemason connection, or they wouldn't of pushed wagons at each other.

The general lack of resistance to the Victor wagon makes me nervous. I can't say that I have a strong town-read on him at all, but I think we should be wary of a wagon with little-to-no push-back.

Constantine. I disagree with almost everything he is posting, although I don't necessarily think it's all purely scummy. I do think much of it is, including 720 specifically. That post is

really

bad. Why do you need to tell us why people are scummy? You're not the only experienced player in this game, and it's a little suspect to be "teaching" us what real scum look like. The only reason I see is because you say scum are ABC, and you are acting like XYZ, so of course you aren't scum. Not buying it.

VOTE: Constantine

Very basically, 1) He has, on multiple occasions, tried to explain what is and isn't scummy. This tends to be done by scum, in my experience, to draw a line that they can then walk opposite of. 2) He has, multiple times, downplayed the importance and future impact of living masons to us in this game, and actively endangered them with stupid discussion about them. 3) Rather than contributing, he is asking everyone else to tell him what has happened in the game. This part isn't as much scummy as it is crappy town, but when dealing with scum, crappy town behavior is probably scummy

[TellTaleHeart]

Edit: Goddammit TTH. Okay.

There are a few things I didn't account for when doing this read.
I'll spare you the details, but looking at Wisdom's ISO through the lens of someone who is very rigid in their ways (and likely perfectionistic), his actions make sense. There are a lot of things that support this: the extreme view of wgeurts and lack of empathy for people townreading him, how the interactions with Malakittens went, and the flustered behavior when a time crunch is pending.

I'm running short on time myself right now, but I'll revisit the Riddleton slot and Constantine.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I should have reads by the morning, still need to look over the Riddlestone/Constantine slot and my body thinks it's later than it is (thanks daylight savings). Full reread should be no later than early morning since I don't have much on at work right now (the one solitary benefit of jury service).