Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

Dammiiiiit. Riddleton's last post is convincing enough. I'm going to eat you for that post if you end up being scum, Riddleton.

UNVOTE: Riddleton
VOTE: Constantine

If Wisdom and wgeurts switch to Constantine we're at L-1. At which point it's going to be up to Victor, TTH, and Malakittens.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

I'm starting to feel the suspicion on Riddleton is little more than a counter wagon, based on weak speculation.
My vote's remaining on victor.

[Mathdino]

I should have reads by the morning, still need to look over the Riddlestone/Constantine slot and my body thinks it's later than it is (thanks daylight savings). Full reread should be no later than early morning since I don't have much on at work right now (the one solitary benefit of jury service).

FFS, man, we have 16 friggin hours in the deadline. I'm declaring intent to hammer in 15 hours if you don't have any last words. If you're town, we need your voice here.

[Mathdino]

Oh fuck wgeurts is gonna be sleeping before the deadline. I'm just gonna pray Victor and TTH decide to lynch Constantine.

Mod, any chance of a deadline extension due to FinnLaw replacing out? We've lost a potential vote.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: constantine

[Wisdom]

And I second Mathdino's request

[TellTaleHeart]

I know I'll be able to be on tomorrow morning, so I would be available to switch if necessary.

In the meanwhile, I'd kind of like you and Wisdom to walk me through your Constantine read, please. I see acryon has already done it (I'll read that in a bit) and I know you've talked about it in your recent activity, but I find having things explained from multiple people multiple times is helpful just in general.

[TellTaleHeart]

Discarding all my reads from before and reviewing the game with a new lens from the beginning, I'm gathering townreads on wgeurts, SilverWolf (now Riddleton), acryon, Wisdom, Mathdino, and Constantine. While I don't really have a townread on Not_Mafia

per se

, I'm also going to take him out of the pool for now. I'm also going to take blindmewithscience out for reasons that I'm not entirely sure of myself.

After that, I'm left with: FinnLaw, Malakittens, VictorDeAngelo, and Newbie.

FinnLaw's the tricky one because even in my old set of reads, I never got happy with a townread on him and I think I now know why. I notice in general that he's very laid back and go-with-the-flow. Probably the most striking feature of FinnLaw's ISO is actually that he never votes. That bothers me because it's not like he hasn't expressed opinions; it seems he can do that perfectly fine. It might be explained by his personality, but I'm not at all sure.

I kept having paranoia about Victor before this reset for a few reasons (post 440 and post 535). Looking at his ISO through the lens of having Silver Wolf and blindmewithscience as townreads, I think it's a lot more likely for Victor to be scum.

I'm happy with this wagon.
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

At the moment, I'm kind of back to where I was in this post in terms of overall view of the game except for Not_Mafia, who's in the grey area. I don't recall anything changing, but I also can't recall why I thought he was town at the time.

If you adopt the mentality of a medieval monk, the persona Constantine is taking, the resulting behavior isn't surprising. To me, he comes off as someone who wants to be viewed as an authority. As a result, he's not hesitant to assert himself, regardless of how accurate (or inaccurate) said assertions may be.

The trouble I'm seeing right now is that 2 people in my question marks are on the Victor wagon, 2 of them aren't voting at all, and 1 of them is voting wgeurts (i.e. might as well not be voting at all). I'm townreading everyone on the Constantine wagon, but I don't know if that speaks to the accuracy of the wagon or not.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Uh, is this seriously happening? Oh well, it isn't me who's going to be laughing at town's brain dead stupidity.

[TellTaleHeart]

In the meanwhile, I'd kind of like you and Wisdom to walk me through your Constantine read, please.

The "you" in this post is MathDino. I quoted something of MathDino's, deleted the quote, and forgot to change the pronoun. Apologies.

[Mathdino]

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

Thy Second Commandment in the Ten Commandments of Constantine's Apocrypha
- That which is policy lynch, is scummy lynch

Give me about 10-20 minutes, TTH, I've got a long Constantine case coming up in another tab just for you.

[TellTaleHeart]

Very basically, 1) He has, on multiple occasions, tried to explain what is and isn't scummy. This tends to be done by scum, in my experience, to draw a line that they can then walk opposite of. 2) He has, multiple times, downplayed the importance and future impact of living masons to us in this game, and actively endangered them with stupid discussion about them. 3) Rather than contributing, he is asking everyone else to tell him what has happened in the game. This part isn't as much scummy as it is crappy town, but when dealing with scum, crappy town behavior is probably scummy

1) I think this fits with his persona. I think he's very adamant in his system of beliefs about how to play the game (it somewhat reminds me of the IC in my newbie game), and it's shown by the tone he takes. Specifically, I'm talking about how derisive he is towards people he disagrees with: accusing several people of "pride" and this recent post.

2) I think this is similar to the wgeurt's "mason hunting" point, and I just think it goes to show that he hasn't thought about strategy that much. This kind of feeds into the point I made in number 1.

3) Crappy town isn't the same thing as scum.

[Mathdino]

Holy hell this is a long case. To sum it up, Constantine has been hypocritical since the game began, has been running shady 'cases' and is particularly fond of discrediting everyone, even asking to be town leader. Also, his actions do not match his intentions. Ready? Okay. Here we go:

Spoiler: This is for you, TTH; I hope it's worth it (to everyone else, I do not blame you if you don't read this)

^Sing us another jingle king of jesters.

You really are asking to be PL'd

, you know that, right?

Contradictions aren't an allignment tell.

I've said it before and will say it again.

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

Thy Second Commandment in the Ten Commandments of Constantine's Apocrypha
-

That which is policy lynch, is scummy lynch

Hypocrisy and unfair discrediting. Also, I put this quote first because I want you to really remember what Constantine said in the underline.

The lord has one requisite for this game,

DO NOT MENTION MASONS

I didn't even bold this one.

This is one of the rare game set-up's where

town has a huge advantage over a 2-3 man scum team

. Don't waste it.

TTH, just to save you some breath,

the freemason alliance is pretty clear if it wasn't already

. Just stop talking about it.

Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role

, but it is pretty much the only one town has.

While the idea is obviously out of place, I do understand where he's coming from.

Masons aren't a very powerful role

, unless they are trying to confirm each other.
The whole act of confirming is only necessary when a mason is being targeted for lynching.

It's also not unlikely Wguert's is a mason by using "mason psychology" so many times.

Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.

That isn't a scum tell. The only time a contradiction is scummy, is when something is said contrary to an action undertaken.

This is a fun part.
1. Constantine tells everyone the town has a huge advantage due to the masons, and then complains about how useless and shitty the mason role is.
2. Constantine commands everyone to stop talking about masons, then proceeds to outright analyse wgeurts for masonness and told Mala later on (I don't feel like finding the post) that the mason alliance is incredibly obvious. Of course, he gets a free pass because by this point, he's switched to thinking masons are useless, so who cares if they're outed, right?

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

That isn't how mafia works, child. It is you who must prove he's scum.

The problem is that many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do.
Lord only knows this isn't the truth.

Mafia is a game of psychological analysis. Like any game where someone has something to veil, the only way to know someone is scum is to trust in your...

Game Theory and Social Theory

Is wisdom someone who conveys the traits of an exemplary soldier of god? No, he really doesn't, but nothing he's done has really been outside what I would expect from a human, who adhere's to basic principals in human nature.

Try to walk in wisdom's shoes. If you can imagine one possible scenario where he could of said something as a townie with nothing to hide, then you're really understanding how this game is played

.

I will submit, I haven't read wisdom's ISO

I bolded this part just to lol at it xD

, and as a patient servant of our lord, I have no trouble doing that. I just haven't found anything strikingly odd from what I have read.

Here are

actual scum tells

- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

Okay, so Constantine starts off okayish, by saying a lot of arrogant people think that they know 'what scum do' (scumtells), and that you have to put yourself in the mind of the person you're analysing (in other words, look for motivations) in order to read them. Then, as shown above these quotes and in the last one, he proceeds to give authoritative judgments on what's a scumtell and what's not.
What?
The funny thing, is almost every scumtell he's said is wrong, but he appears to be tailoring what he calls a scumtell to both his scumspects and himself. Consider: he points out that contradictions aren't a scumtell right before he contradicts himself. His scumtell of 'domination' (which is really just activity) applies to me, as does responding back to Constantine's tunneling of me with questions and not statements (this also applies to Victor). What Constantine is doing is trying to be town leader (he literally said authority figures are how you catch scum) and pulling his apparent experience to set up mislynches and give himself a free pass.

^Seriously,

none of this dodging the question bullshit? Everyone needs to confess their reads to the lord. Everyone.
Jesus and I are only interested in the read of the person you want to lynch.

Good, now explain your vote

Why?

The lord isn't an open book

. Now to look for some metaphor to equate my feelings????

I don't really think I need to explain this. He tries and fails to strongarm reads out of people at which point he absolutely refuses to give any reads of his own.

I usually don't explain my reads or thoughts until many questions have been asked

. Most people on this site suck at playing mafia, or

let their ego's drive their decision making

Again, bolded just for lulz

.

Everyone's so sure that they know who scum is, that no one's willing to cooperate.

I would like to cooperate, and I would like to win this game. Please help me do that.

If you want my statement, you're going to need to give it some time. Lord know's we have plenty of it. I always like seeing what others think of my vote

before

I tell them why I chose it. It really defeats the purpose to feed reasoning scum can easily refute. Encouraging people to think for themselves goes a mile longer than me telling them why to follow my lead.
With that said,

why do you think I might be scum reading him

?

Didn't bold this.

God grace's to you, and hopefully you understand my position better.

And this quote is all kinds of scummy; he replaces into a game, votes someone, refuses to give reads, and asks everyone else to form his case for him when he's clearly read the least or near the least out of all players. Also, he complains about everyone thinking they know who scum is when he's been tunneling the same 3 players all game.

I really want to smite you, so hell yeah I'm going to tunnel.

Tunneling a scum read is actually a

good

thing to do.

Please take a leap of faith with me here guy's. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about
VOTE: Mathdino

Ha. Ha ha ha. Complains about everyone tunneling while he tunnels one of the most active players in the game for

no. Goddamn. Reason.

Not ONCE did he explain why he thinks I'm scum past possible association with Victor, and he flat out admits that he just wants me out of the game. Gee, I wonder why.
And then he says that tunneling a scumread is a good thing after calling multiple people out on it in his ISO. I don't have the time nor the effort to go through it to point it out, but take a look if you're so inclined, TTH. I recall him pointing out people tunneling Wisdom and wgeurts multiple times.

^This is the same reason wisdom just scum read riddleton.
Still think you, victor, and silverwolve's replacement are scum.
That hasn't changed at all since I started this joke of a game.

@Mala -

If it wasn't shockingly obvious who the freemason's are already

Bolded because this is the mason stuff I was talking about earlier.

.

Holy hell would you stop with this?

Secondly, I've been scumhunting the entire game. How is continuing to do exactly what I'm doing going to change your mind? Your entire case is based on association.

Actually my case on you and Victor is based off of intent, not association

. My read on silver was association, that I'll concede.
If I'm scum reading you and victor, and you're actually contributing on a regular basis, by policy I would prefer to lynch victor.

I'm just bewildered that he's been given a free pass on this for so long. I can't prove a negative with this case, but look through his ISO and show me ONE (1) reason he's had for voting me that doesn't have to do with association. Constantine has consistently dodged questions on his baseless tunneling, while complaining about the town to put himself on a pedestal. At this point I honestly think he replaced into the game, read the thread, and decided to try to lynch who he thought was the towniest person in order to get a reaction of some kind.

I want to see this coming from a town perspective. I really do. But the fact that he's provided ZERO (0) reasoning for the majority of his claims even when asked makes them look like they came out of thin air. This isn't something arrogant town does, TTH. Arrogant town at least explains their reads and proceeds to shit on everyone for not seeing things the same way they do. Constantine just dodged questions long enough for people to accept that his reads came from somewhere.

And yes, guys, contradictions ARE scummy when there's a scum motivation to them.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

Oh, now for the long and wrong case that results in my eventual mislynch. These things always swing people near the deadline. Whopee!

[Mathdino]

If you're town, your sarcasm is not appreciated. I wrote that case specifically because TTH asked, not because I don't think you'll be lynched before the deadline.

Your offence sucks and your defence sucks. You've given none of either. All you've given this game is hollow appeal to authority and strongarming.

If you're town, this lynch is on you, as is true for ANY mislynch target. If you're scum, well, thanks for the easy D1.

[blindmewithscience]

Ok.
So Consantines's at L-3, with Math, Wisdom, BMWS, acryon, voting him.
Those that aren't voting him are: Newbie, Mala, Riddleton, Not_Mafia, TTH, VDA, wgeurts, Finnlaw, and Constantine.
People that could end up voting him I think are TTH, maybe VDA, and I'm not sure about anyone else.
Also note that VDA is at L-1. A hammer is a possibility here, and he says(?) that he could come on before the deadline. I'd rather not be a part of this scenario though.
And at some point in the future (perhaps day 2), I'd like some more discussion regarding 845 and 854. INteresting opinions.

[Riddleton]

@mod: I also am in favour of a deadline extension request

[Riddleton]

I'll check out your Constantine case now.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

If riddleton switches to my wagon, I'm going to blow a casket. Lynching myself doesn't reveal any new information that I didn't already know. For one, that I'm town.
I'm not a mason, so if people are trying to lynch me because of my assertions on who the other masons were, good riddance.

[blindmewithscience]

If riddleton switches to my wagon, I'm going to blow a casket. Lynching myself doesn't reveal any new information that I didn't already know. For one, that I'm town.
I'm not a mason, so if people are trying to lynch me because of my assertions on who the other masons were, good riddance.

Yeah, go ahead and say that. THe thing is,

we

don't know your alignment. We want that information. And we can only get the absolute truth with a lynch. You saying your alignment is completely useless, as you'll always say that you're town, no matter what you are (except mason, which you

clearly

are not).

[Newbie]

I'm keeping my vote on Victor for the time being.

[Mathdino]

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

Newbie, can you do this maybe now? Ish? You've given no reasons for the wagons you're willing to be on; I mean at least we have arguments from TTH and Riddleton.
If Const flips scum, I'm going to be a lil suspish here.

[Newbie]

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

Newbie, can you do this maybe now? Ish? You've given no reasons for the wagons you're willing to be on; I mean at least we have arguments from TTH and Riddleton.
If Const flips scum, I'm going to be a lil suspish here.

I think it's weird how

apathetic

Victor seems to be towards being almost lynched, especially when the deadline is almost here. I want to see what he has to say after reading up (I think there's enough time until the deadline for that.). I also think the case against him holds more ground than the case against Constantine.

[Malakittens]

VOTE: VDA

[blindmewithscience]

Shoot, I think that's lynch...