Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Newbie]

I'd be willing to lynch either Victor or Riddleton.

[Mathdino]

I'm going to be active right up to the deadline, so count me on the Constantine wagon if that gets enough momentum. Atm I think Riddleton is a more likely lynch. I'd recommend anyone currently voting Victor to switch to one of the two, since the Victor wagon is incredibly unlikely at this rate.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH townreads both Constantine and Riddleton.

That is correct, and after reading the recent activity I still am.

In the last few pages, it looks like Wisdom's been making a mad dash to make sure the lynch is on anyone but Victor.

Victor feels like lynchbait right now, so I'm not voting him until I've heard from him.

Any particular reason he's deserving of this label "lynchbait"? What does that even mean and how did you arrive at this? And don't tell me it's because he's V/LA. It's not.

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling.

Because town never tunnel, huh?

Your case sucks.

No, that's a strawman argument.

The "case" on wgeurts is and was always weak. It's

your opinion

that he was always scummy. Your efforts to present it as some kind of objective, indisputable fact notwithstanding, it's an opinion. I disagree, and apparently Riddleton does too. There's a clear reason why scum would want to ramrod a weak case on (what did you call it?) "lynchbait." The "mason fishing" was always bogus. So was the hoopla surrounding his self-vote and how somehow the timing wasn't right or some such nonsense.

Now that I think of it, I think the Silver Wolf push was bad and opportunistic, too. There was this overall sentiment that Silver Wolf was somehow defending herself "badly." I'm not going to go and pull quotes right now, but I do remember Newbie and acryon saying something to that effect. Why is that? She got emotional and blew up at her accuser, but how that's somehow "bad" was never explained in any satisfactory way. Victor was right there to heap suspicion on her when she wasn't very popular. blindmewithscience is another person who Victor was lumping suspicion on for tenuous reasons. Post 356, he linked us to some blindmewithscience post and inexplicably, a scumread comes out of the black box. Why? We don't know, it's apparently left up to the imagination.

This unwarranted imo defense of Constantine by Riddleton troubles me. If Constantine is actually town, Riddle might be scum going for the cred. And gain further momentum to push Victor on D2.

This is nothing more than mud slinging, in my opinion. The defense of Constantine wasn't unwarranted at all, and I was agreeing with Riddleton right up to the point where he faltered. On the surface, it may look like Constantine contradicted himself, but I think it's because he's a person who likes to hear himself talk and doesn't necessarily think about what he says. Just seeing what kind of persona Constantine is adopting here, I'm willing to bet that the need to come off as an authoritative and competent player had more of a role in his list of "scumtells" than anything else.

Riddleton, if you can find all these reasons for Constantine to be town, how come you don't consider Victor-town at all and you're so adamant about him being scum?

This statement is absolutely absurd!
Somehow, having a townread on one person and a scumread on someone else is a scumtell? That doesn't even sound right.
What does Riddleton's analysis of Constantine and Victor have to do with each other? What's the relationship? He has to explicitly weigh out everything? Or was there something else you expected out of Riddleton's Victor case that was absent?

I am not OK with a PL. I have had plenty of off-games, and at the moment, it seems pretty clear to me that this is one of those for you (at least in that instance). I would hope we can do better than choosing to lynch someone based on a simple mistake.

This feels a little off considering you've been scumreading his slot for the whole game. What was the point you stopped scumreading SW?

This is more mudslinging and strawmanning. acryon was arguing against the policy lynch (that's what "PL" stands for, correct?), which is a perfectly reasonable position to take. And how would a changing read necessarily make him scum, anyway?

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that Wisdom's goal here is to throw suspicion onto as many people as possible before the day ends. I think there's an excellent chance both Constantine and Riddleton are town. Wisdom is rushing for the exit of the Constantine wagon likely because he wants someone else to be holding the bag at the end of the day.

Wisdom sowing the seeds of discord; this whole suggestion to lynch Riddleton is a ridiculous ruse to cause confusion and force the town into making a hasty, bad decision.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm good with my Victor vote.

[Mathdino]

Well this'll be fun.

The "case" on wgeurts is and was always weak. It's

your opinion

that he was always scummy. Your efforts to present it as some kind of objective, indisputable fact notwithstanding, it's an opinion. I disagree, and apparently Riddleton does too. There's a clear reason why scum would want to ramrod a weak case on (what did you call it?) "lynchbait." The "mason fishing" was always bogus. So was the hoopla surrounding his self-vote and how somehow the timing wasn't right or some such nonsense.

Is it not your

opinion

that the case on wgeurts was bogus? Do I really need to explain how asking the masons to claim is scummy? You don't get to reject someone else's reality by calling it opinion and substituting your own your own.

Now that I think of it, I think the Silver Wolf push was bad and opportunistic, too. There was this overall sentiment that Silver Wolf was somehow defending herself "badly." I'm not going to go and pull quotes right now, but I do remember Newbie and acryon saying something to that effect. Why is that? She got emotional and blew up at her accuser, but how that's somehow "bad" was never explained in any satisfactory way. Victor was right there to heap suspicion on her when she wasn't very popular. blindmewithscience is another person who Victor was lumping suspicion on for tenuous reasons. Post 356, he linked us to some blindmewithscience post and inexplicably, a scumread comes out of the black box. Why? We don't know, it's apparently left up to the imagination.

In this topic: More people blaming Wisdom for things that I've done. I'm getting a little uncomfortable with people refusing to take me on when a large number of things they accuse Wisdom of are exactly what I've been doing as well, including but not limited to the wgeurts tunneling, the SilverWolf pushing, and "making a mad dash to make sure the lynch is on anyone but Victor".
Regardless, the things you're suspecting Victor of here are equally tenuous. Victor going after Silver after her blowup is definitely not a scumtell (if anything, it's null), and I'm not seeing the scum motivation behind that read of blindme.

Somehow, having a townread on one person and a scumread on someone else is a scumtell? That doesn't even sound right.
What does Riddleton's analysis of Constantine and Victor have to do with each other? What's the relationship? He has to explicitly weigh out everything? Or was there something else you expected out of Riddleton's Victor case that was absent?

No, having a townread on someone doing the exact same thing as your scumread is scummy. Read the thread.

This is more mudslinging and strawmanning. acryon was arguing against the policy lynch (that's what "PL" stands for, correct?), which is a perfectly reasonable position to take. And how would a changing read necessarily make him scum, anyway?

This is more mudslinging and strawmanning. Since when does questioning someone mean you think they're scum?

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that TTH has been tunneling Wisdom all game for reasons that relate far more to playstyle than actual scumminess, and that the majority of this case relies on the fact that Wisdom being scum isn't INconsistent with his play, along with the fact that TTH simply disagrees with Wisdom on a number of points.
Newsflash: Being wrong in your eyes doesn't make someone scum.

[Newbie]

@mathdino, If the vote count is up to date, it says that Victor is at L-3.

Aaand I was waiting for someone to bring up the fact that there seems to be some resistance to vote Victor from certain players.

Vote:VictorDeAngelo

[Mathdino]

I was prepared to vote Victor after I saw Riddleton's case and that a few people agreed with him.

Then I read the case. It sucks. I'm hanging on to my prior townread on Victor.

[St Constantine the Hermit]

^This is the same reason wisdom just scum read riddleton.
Still think you, victor, and silverwolve's replacement are scum.
That hasn't changed at all since I started this joke of a game.

[Not_Mafia]

I'd be willing to lynch either Victor or Riddleton.

[blindmewithscience]

That hasn't changed at all since I started

this joke of a game.

Wow, thanks...

Now for a giant post:

Spoiler: Constantine posts

Could you point out these places where exactly this happened, and explain your reasoning for them?

I didn't mention any particular post, so what is it exactly you want me to show you?

I'm really confused lost on the wgeurts is town argument

Considering you're new to mafia, it is understandable. It has nothing to do with being Pro-Wguert's, as he looks 100% town to any person who's been playing this game over a month.

So, you say that there's "times where she dipped to scum". But yet you can't point out where these occur? Then this case is baseless.
And apparently, "anyone playing for over a month" does not include Wisdom and Mathdino. That point is pure BS.

Posts 719 and 720 I don't like. IMO, finding the scum is completely dependent on how the game has been going. Going to agree with others that scumtells are variable. Also, it's funny how you say in 719 that "Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games " isn't a scumtell while in the next post you say that Lurking is a scumtell. Clarification, please?

Spoiler: Riddleton and his stuff, including the Victor case

The fence sitters should vote Victor already and not make excuses about V/LA.

I'm going to agree with others that this is pretty unfair to him. Now, he may have shown some scummy stuff in your opinion, but let's just give him some time. And the deadline is approximately 7am PST/10am EST. I'm pretty sure that

someone

will be awake then (also, mod said that deadline may be extended...)
And interesting how in 749 there's no response at all to points a and b brought up by mathdino. Riddleton, why was this so? Did you agree with these points, or skip over them, or something else? In addition, in the same post, Riddleton states that wgeurts has never done anything scummy. I'm agreeing with what wisdom says in 751.
(As a sidenote, so many late night posts...)
From 795 "I'm obviously not going to be a NK target so the only option is a PL. " Riddleton, please explain
804 is really interesting. Wisdom makes a really good point. And I didn't see a Riddleton defense...

Spoiler: Commentary on what's happened since about 775ish...

I said about because I'm really not sure where a semi-transition happened.
New divisions seem to be forming. The old ones aren’t relevant, as those lynches won’t happen the way this game’s been going.
Constantine and Riddleton are the main lynch candidates for today. I'm much more comfortable with a Constantine lynch. I originally voted him when he joined, but never unvoted, and I'm more comfortable with that wagon than Riddleton's (although there's also the connection to SW to consider). I'm also unsure about Constantine's prior experience and how much that exactly relates to this game. There's all this weird stuff about him acting like he has all of this experience with mafia, and he knows exactly how everyone is supposed to always act and how this is exactly how we find scum and what's a scumtell and what's not, etc.

@constantine

: you said you other account is inactive. But could you still link a game or two for us? I'd seriously like to read it during the night phase. And exactly how much experience do you have? (approx # of games?)

Back to my main topic of town divisions. I feel kinda bad that I'm here after all this stuff happened, and all of the cases against either has already been said. Don't feel like I can contribute much to either, except for my own opinions on this all.
(Please correct me if any of this is wrong)
Constantine-town: Riddleton (kinda), Constantine (duh), TTH
Constantine-scum: Math, acryon, wisdom, BMWS (kinda)
And I'm not sure the leans of everyone else.

Riddleton-town: TTH, RIddleton,
Riddleton-scum: acryon and wisdom (I think...), Math, Newbie, Constantine
And I know for a fact that I could go either way on this wagon.
The riddleton wagon, IMO, could be done by the deadline (especially if extended)

Sorry if this is all disorganized and stuff. I tried my best...
And what does 832 even mean? Not_mafia, is that supposed to be you agreeing w/ Newbie on that point?

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, didn't mean to submit that yet. Still finishing up that 3rd part. Will repost just that section in a few.

[Riddleton]

BMWS, I've no intention of defending myself. I've already laid out my hand.

I didn't expect for the PL to be today, but that's fine as well. Hoping some VCA can be done after my flip. Victor and Mala are still scum. Get bad vibes from TTH too, and how she defends me.

[blindmewithscience]

Spoiler: Commentary on what's happened since about 775ish, now completed

I said about because I'm really not sure where a semi-transition happened.
New divisions seem to be forming. The old ones aren’t relevant, as those lynches won’t happen the way this game’s been going.
Constantine and Riddleton are the main lynch candidates for today. I'm much more comfortable with a Constantine lynch. I originally voted him when he joined, but never unvoted, and I'm more comfortable with that wagon than Riddleton's (although there's also the connection to SW to consider). I'm also unsure about Constantine's prior experience and how much that exactly relates to this game. There's all this weird stuff about him acting like he has all of this experience with mafia, and he knows exactly how everyone is supposed to always act and how this is exactly how we find scum and what's a scumtell and what's not, etc.

@constantine

: you said you other account is inactive. But could you still link a game or two for us? I'd seriously like to read it during the night phase. And exactly how much experience do you have? (approx # of games?)

Back to my main topic of town divisions. I feel kinda bad that I'm here after all this stuff happened, and all of the cases against either has already been said. Don't feel like I can contribute much to either, except for my own opinions on this all.
(Please correct me if any of this is wrong)
Constantine-town: Riddleton (kinda), Constantine (duh), TTH
Constantine-scum: Math, acryon, wisdom, BMWS (kinda)
And I'm not sure the leans of everyone else.
Constantine's case seems to be stemming from saying one thing, acting another (I feel that it might have to do with his playstyle just a bit, especially his acting like a "King of Mafia", per se).

Riddleton-town: TTH, RIddleton,
Riddleton-scum: acryon and wisdom (I think...), Math, Newbie, Constantine
And I know for a fact that I could go either way on this wagon.
The riddleton wagon, IMO, could be done by the deadline (especially if extended). Its case seems to be coming from the turnaround about Constantine. Didn't catch it (or don't remember) if there was any more to it. If so, please tell me. Might just be my latenight confusion again

[Riddleton]

BMWS, it's basic mafia theory. Scum keep the suspicious players and the new players, alive for LyLo. People who are acting like VIs or who just made a silly mistake (that's me).

[Mathdino]

^This is the same reason wisdom just scum read riddleton.
Still think you, victor, and silverwolve's replacement are scum.
That hasn't changed at all since I started this joke of a game.

I'm not scumreading Riddleton because his case sucks. I'm scumreading him mostly due to the scumslip and partially due to his defending you.

Look guys, it really doesn't look like a Victor or Constantine lynch is happening. Everyone who's scumreading Victor is already voting him, and the same happened with Constantine.

Let's switch to Riddleton before the deadline; we have enough support from both wagons.
Particularly paging

Newbie, Not_Mafia, Constantine, acryon, BMWS

.

[Not_Mafia]

Riddle slipped?

[Mathdino]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

The scumslip is in that a scum would never "want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". Because scum would already KNOW the wagon they're pushing is incorrect. I find it hard to believe Riddleton would say something like that while legitimately believing Victor is scum.
I think Riddleton is scum and accidentally confirmed both Victor and wgeurts as town.

[blindmewithscience]

On mobile, sorry for no links.
Uh, math, check your 824. Don't you say that Riddle responded to the scumslip in "the townie at way possible"? Was the best defense that he could give not enough to save him? Please elaborate on this.

[blindmewithscience]

"Townie at" should be towniest. Autocorrect.

[Mathdino]

Not enough to save him from his predecessor, no, and I'm also seeing some merit in the point with Riddleton defending Const.
The scumslip was if anything the straw that broke the camel's back. Eh, more like the 2 kg weight, but whatever.

Regardless, it's the best chance we have of a lynch hitting scum, IMO. I like to temporarily give the benefit of the doubt to replacements, but BMWS, lemme ask you:

Given all that we suspected SilverWolf for, has Riddleton

redeemed

his slot sufficiently to warrant not voting him this close to the deadline?

If the answer is no, I'd recommend switching your vote in the next 24 hours.

[Mathdino]

To clarify, I mean that Riddleton wagon is
A. The best chance we have of a lynch actually going through and
B. The best chance of a completed wagon hitting scum.

There's just not enough momentum for Constantine.

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom are replacements really null? Isn't it important to also important to consider who they're replacing?

What I meant was, the reasons someone replaces out are null, because it usually has to do with RL. Obviously what predecessors do is not null, so I wasn't suggesting that.

[Wisdom]

@TTH I think she's town, I'm satisfied with her responses and other recent posts. I also feel better about you.

You feel better about me now that I've backed off?

It seems like your read on me is dependent on my read on you. I don't care for that.

Maybe. I don't appreciate tunnels on me, and the way you were not interacting with me was annoying. You changing that is pleasant.

[Wisdom]

In the last few pages, it looks like Wisdom's been making a mad dash to make sure the lynch is on anyone but Victor.

Or maybe I spoke too fast.
Where does this come from? Why do you disagree with the points I made? Yes, the Victor wagon is sketchy and I'd rather lynch someone else, your point?

[Wisdom]

Any particular reason he's deserving of this label "lynchbait"? What does that even mean and how did you arrive at this? And don't tell me it's because he's V/LA. It's not.

Lynchbait are people who are easy for scum to get mislynched. The reasons people have been pushing him for, especially Riddleton's case, are hardly enough to warrant a lynch. And the fact he's not here to defend himself just makes this look even more opportunistic.

[Wisdom]

Somehow, having a townread on one person and a scumread on someone else is a scumtell? That doesn't even sound right.
What does Riddleton's analysis of Constantine and Victor have to do with each other? What's the relationship? He has to explicitly weigh out everything?

I already explained this. You're not reading.