Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

I'm not sure if this is a case of moving the goalposts or straw manning.

Quote the section where I contradicted myself.

[acryon]

So not only is that wgeurts like actually unambiguously blatantly rolefishing (which he did not do here, at least at the point you voted him and even after that it was 'you're either masons or scum' and he had masons on the brain because you brought it up)

But all the stuff with wguerts happened early D1 of this game (Mid Oct.) and all the stack the deck stuff happened Nov. +, much less even getting into how you'd have known that wgeurts was scum in that game yet

As such, anything that happened in stack the deck could not have informed anything you did in this game.

So I kinda feel like you're just lying to me now

Gotta go, back tonight.

And I townread [wgeurts] that game because I assumed he was being newbtown going by his meta.

Still feel like this is a scumslip and I wish other people would take their blinders off.

If

1) you townread him that game because you assumed he was newbtown going by his meta
and
2) that game happened

after

this one for all intents and purposes with you reading wgeurts

Then why didn't you treat this game like you

later

treated that one if you were willing to trust his meta there? You had no instance of him flipping scum in the latter game to inform this game. Conversely, you had no reason NOT to be just as suspicious of him in that game as you were in this game if you're just naturally suspicious like that, because he hadn't flipped here. Your retroactive justification doesn't even make any sense for you to believe to be true (even if it weren't already utterly ridiculous).

Your actions suggest that what is actually different between the two games is your alignment and the amount of information available to you. If you

knew

he was town in this game the whole time, and, just as germane, the other game was actually your first attempt to legitimately read him (as your reference to the second game without any hint of being wary about your read in this game would indicate), then your actions in the other game

do

make sense.

They also suggest you're lying about what actually happened in this game. You seriously using the other game as retroactive justification because he happened to flip scum there, a fact you had no idea about at the time since you were town there, in a situation that is markedly different from this one even just going by my 30 second smell test, is

insane

, and I think you screwed up, forgot the timing, and are trying to cover for yourself.

And I didn't think your reasoning cleared you on these, especially the first one.

[Mathdino]

Nice, you quoted bork.

bork claims that it was bad to vote wgeurts because the correct conclusion was that wgeurts was newbtown.
I say no, that's stupid, voting wgeurts was the right move at the time.
He says that it was a bad conclusion that wgeurts was rolefishing.
I say no, that's stupid, here's a bunch of examples that show wgeurts rolefishes.

I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong and that people DO rolefish, and that it's dumb to be voting me because I made the conclusion that wgeurts was doing so. Stack The Deck did not inform any of my decisions this game. I feel as if my actions this game are justified enough to speak for themselves.

[Mathdino]

Lemme rephrase just in case.
I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong.
I am not using it as justification for my original vote.
My original vote was because at the time, the Slayer's Gambit showed me that wgeurts was probably pretending to be newbtown.

[acryon]

Nice, you quoted bork.

bork claims that it was bad to vote wgeurts because the correct conclusion was that wgeurts was newbtown.
I say no, that's stupid, voting wgeurts was the right move at the time.
He says that it was a bad conclusion that wgeurts was rolefishing.
I say no, that's stupid, here's a bunch of examples that show wgeurts rolefishes.

I use Stack The Deck to show that bork's wrong and that people DO rolefish, and that it's dumb to be voting me because I made the conclusion that wgeurts was doing so. Stack The Deck did not inform any of my decisions this game. I feel as if my actions this game are justified enough to speak for themselves.

But you didn't prove him wrong, because you are saying that you were voting for him for rolefishing, but you didn't have Stack the Deck to help you realize that he really was rolefishing. You seemed to imply that it

did

inform your decision, and using it after the fact as justification for your previous action is pretty weak, because it wasn't even part of the equation at the time.

And of course I quoted him, because he already explained it and you know what statements of your's were in question. Why would I post your naked quotes when he already went over them? Do you really want me to re-type all of bork's statements that I agree with?

[acryon]

Yes, but Stack the Deck should never have even entered the equation after the fact. All it does is prove that wgeurts is an anomaly and that he likes/appears to rolefish; it doesn't prove that bork was wrong about your initial voting being bad.

[Mathdino]

I 'seemed to imply'? Really? You're going with that?

looking through more D1 stuff:

Mathdino's push on Wgeurts for 'mason fishing' (as if that were easily discernable between looking for scumbuddy interactions, especially considering it was pretty obvious Wgeurts generally had no idea what the fuck he was doing regardless of alignment) on D1 was fucking awful

This is the statement I'm trying to prove wrong. He says my push was 'fucking awful' and says it was pretty obvious wgeurts was newbtown and NOT mason-fishing.
I could've used any random person pretending to be newbtown when they were actually rolefishing. It doesn't matter that it was wgeurts. The point is, IT HAPPENS, and the assumption that someone is rolefishing especially after already pretending to be newbtown is a reasonable assumption to make.

Edit: It proves that rolefishing under the guise of newbtown happens, and bork is crazy for thinking that pushing wgeurts for that is awful. Again, I could pull any instance of anyone rolefishing like that and it'd be equivalent to the Stack The Deck point. But none of that informed my decision back then.

[borkjerfkin]

also 162 doesn't naturally lend itself to an accusation of rolefishing, a fact that keeps constantly getting overlooked here - he was making a pre-flip associative connection by his own admission. There's no basis to even wonder "is he trying to fake being newbtown by hunting masons" because there's no fucking reason to think he's hunting masons; he's just scumhunting. Wgeurts was even confused by this. He never brought up masons at that point.

Mathdino

did.

Then Mathdino linked me to stack the deck which was basically Wgeurts going 'which one y'all motherfuckers is the vig' like 60 times and pretending like that's the same shit

[acryon]

There appears to be more than one problem here. Both strawmanning and then false equivalency based on that strawman.

[Mathdino]

Par. A. Noi. A. Before this game even started I knew it was going to be different because you had to watch out for pre-flip associatives. See, if Newbie or BMWS made a statement like that, I'd have been fine and just told them to shut it. But wgeurts already used a newbtown persona, so from the beginning of this game I trained myself to watch out for him because I figured he's a lot more competent than he appears to be.
He was the best suspect at the time, and then came the "which one y'all motherfuckers is the mason" which just solidified my vote.

Edit: Yeah pretty much.

[Mathdino]

acryon, this is why I want you to go through my ISO. At the end of the day, bork is attacking me for a bad vote on a townie, and I'm not even trying to prove I'm town when it comes to this; I'm trying to prove that as a townsperson that was the right move.

We can't stay on this forever.

[acryon]

He was the best suspect at the time, and then came the "which one y'all motherfuckers is the mason" which just solidified my vote.

But your reason for voting him was that he was fishing for masons. So did you vote him because he was the best suspect and then later have your vote solidified by his mason-fishing, or did you vote him because he was role-fishing like you said in 162?

[acryon]

This right here appears to be a contradiction. Tell me why it isn't.

[Mathdino]

I can't even spoiler this crap because it has a spoiler in it. But you guys have a serious case of amnesia (granted, so do I, since you convinced me that 162 was literally the only reason I voted wgeurts).
This is why it isn't a contradiction, brother.

@Wisdom: The way wgeurts handled that seem pretty natural (I still don't like the Slayer Gambit). He seemed more focused on reactions to it than your own reaction; personally I wouldn't have expected much from you, considering you basically taunted him into voting, haha. I can't say I like how he's responding under pressure though.

Agreed on TTH though, scumhunting isn't the same as throwing out suspicions.

@wgeurts:

Don't spend all your posts defending. What're your reads

? Anything you've found interesting/want to point out?

Since when are early reads of little value

? I'm not asking you to dayvig scum, I'm asking you to participate in discussion

other than just defending yourself against... a couple questions

. The more we talk the more likely scum emerges.

Still not sure whether to FoS or to write off as current playstyle.

Yeah,

Slight FoS: You.

Why does acro seem town?

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...

did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

This post is gonna be a joyride. NO ONE QUOTE ALL OF IT.

Spoiler:

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
[...]
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

Sorry, but that argument very much seems out of thin air. It wouldn't have looked bad at all to dislike something and not vote based on it; half the playerlist has done that. Again, I don't LIKE what he did but he's completely consistent with wanting to leave RVS.

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

I did? Show me where. My point was I wasn't sure if everything you said before the gambit was part of the gambit itself. And yes, it's not based off of others. Where's the opurunism in voting what she finds scummy?

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

I don't like these posts at all.

At the very least they showcase misguided arrogance, and at the most it's scummy

. It'd be a dumbass move to not read your posts whether town or scum (although given your post spamming, it wouldn't be as dumb now). Newbie did do scumhunting; her first target was you. Do you not count that as scumhunting because you were her first suspicion?

And lastly, did you just SELF-META

right before saying that Newbie providing her previous games should be discounted??? Newbie giving links for us to read is helpful.

You telling us why you're town because of it is suspicious.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

Is there anything Newbie could've said in her vote post that you wouldn't find suspicious? And I'm not sure how pointing out OMGUS is showing some sort of link. I have a townread on Newbie. However I could have a scumread on her and still think you're OMGUSing.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

That was not a random vote. You made up a BS reason and voted him for reactions. That's not random.

You're being seriously inconsistent, man.

And yes, it was LITERALLY based off of thin air.

Okay I decided to spoiler the above but I highly recommend y'all reading. If you're gonna quote parts of it, remove the spoiler tag.

Conclusions: wgeurts is way scummier than I thought before

, but since I still don't think Victor and he are scum together, I'm going to keep my vote on Victor for now. Scumspects are in order, Victor or wgeurts, and TTH. Newbie still seems town.

No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you

? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough

for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts

You did read this post, right?

At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum

.

Do you not care to respond to the rest of my post?

Scum want to find masons because masons are the only people other than scum that know people's alignments. So they look for interactive tells.

Which is what you just did with me and Newbie.

Well, on the bright side, you've answered my "Have you ever played with masons" question with a full-on "No".

Scum wants to find masons, because masons can confirm themselves as town by claiming.
Scum wants to kill known masons because they are confirmed town and thus unlikely to be lynched.
You pointing out possible 'weak links' is anti-town because it helps scum PR hunt.
You seriously wouldn't kill masons over a VT?

I legitimately can't tell whether you're pretending to not understand this or really don't. If you don't, then you're noobtown. But given your Slayer Gambit earlier, this could be just one more big reaction test.
My vote stands.

That was written before 181. Now you are FULL ON MASON FISHING

.

Lynch this guy

. I can't really put it any other way.

This is the evolution of my read on wgeurts. There were a MULTITUDE of reasons I had for finding him scummy, and 169 outright states that the mason-fishing point was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Thanks, by the way, for making me forget that I voted him for reasons other than mason-fishing.

[acryon]

That answers part of the the new question I had, but it still doesn't answer how he was mason-fishing.

[Mathdino]

He wasn't. Because he's town. This brings me back to...

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want?

[acryon]

He wasn't. Because he's town. This brings me back to...

I'm not perfect. Is that what you want?

No, of course not, because nobody is, definitely including myself. Nobody wants you to be perfect, but they want you to be able to explain why you did what you did. You obviously can't prove that you really thought he was mason-fishing, but which posts of his made you think he was?

[Mathdino]

The reason I thought he was mason-fishing is because I was paranoid, he was already insanely scummy, and I was uncomfortable with being linked with Newbie. 140 is what made me think this.

[acryon]

The reason I thought he was mason-fishing is because I was paranoid, he was already insanely scummy, and I was uncomfortable with being linked with Newbie. 140 is what made me think this.

I can buy that, but I still don't like the Stack the Deck association. Out for the night.

[Mathdino]

Here's what I do remember after looking over those posts: I reread my quote wall as I usually do for EBWOPs, and 140 just made me go "Holy shit, he's pushing a scum agenda there" and voted him.

Question: as scum, why would I not vote him after the huge wall of evidence I had on him? Why bring up mason-fishing and use that as a reason instead?

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

I can't believe someone made a movie about my mafiascum game!!! It's so exciting everyone!

VOTE COUNT!!!!

borkjerkfin-
Newbie-
Mathdino-borkjerfkin, acryon, (L-1)
blindmewithscience-Newbie (L-2)
acryon-

not voting- blindmewithscience, Mathdino,


With 5 Alive it's 3 to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2014-11-23 07:00:00)

Bloody Mary's and Mimosas for everyone!!! Brunch is so kickass when you're tipsy!

[blindmewithscience]

Gah. I really don't know what to do now.
I'm leaning null-town on acryon, as stated earlier. I don't want to lynch him ATM.
I've been townreading MD all game. This last interaction was really weird, though, and I am now completely confused on him.
With Newbie: I tried going through my own ISO to figure out what my reads were on Newbie throughout the game, but found nothing o.o
And so because of Newbie and MD, I went back to some key points in the game, and compared each of their play to see who could have had more scum motivation for things/who acted more scummy.
After 676 (around the area where TTH thought Wisdom was mason), both of MD and Newbie quickly said that they thoguht they understood and reread it from that standpoint. Literally no important difference here.
Towards the end of D1, Newbie voted VDA while MD was trying to create a Constantine lynch. While Newbie's vote turned out to be right and MD's was wrong, I was greatly in favor of Constantine's lynch at the time (I fully admit hating on his playstyle in this game, and that def. influenced my opinions). I took a look at the reasons newbie gave for voting him (in 944-note that she gave this full list only in twilight), and to me it mostly made sense, but this was weird: "Riddleton's case elaborated on it further and his other points were good as well. After that, I noticed that it seemed some people were throwing out other names (riddleton and Constantine for example) to get away from the VD lynch. That further cemented my suspicion." Kinda confused right now.

During twilight, 939 MD commented that Newbie could have been bussing VDA. Newbie responds in 944. Night soon falls. And if I'm not blind(with.... SCIENCE!! ), MD did not comment on Newbie bussing after D2 began. This could be MD trying to implicate Newbie for a lynch he knew was successful, or Newbie or MD just scumhunting. Please tell me if something just went completely over my head that I missed.

Basically, what I found: nothing to lean me either way...

There has to be something. But I'm getting tired. I'm going to look some more tomorrow, when I have a clear head and (I' think?) a free afternoon. I'll probably end up looking at the time around the wgeurts self vote, when the town spent over 150 posts in a few hours about masons and such, and these past 100ish posts again with the bork-MD thing.

Gah, I hope we don't get to day 5. We have 9 days to figure out who to lynch today. But I'd like to be confident in our lynch before then.

[Mathdino]

BMWS, I want your lynch order. I'll sacrifice myself if it turns out I'm just gonna get lynched in LyLo anyway, and if I agree on the person you're planning to lynch if I die.

Counterwagons can be a sort-of tell on the accuracy of the wagon you're on. Generally it's much easier to form wagons on town than it is on scum.

Newbie was pretty much completely inactive D2, and Wisdom and Mala kind of hijacked the entire day, so there wasn't much to push when it came to Newbie. I got pretty confident one of Wisdom/Mala was scum and that one of Constantine/Riddleton was scum; Newbie was the tertiary suspect up until the Wisdom can of worms was opened.

And in case you guys didn't notice, the above post is still insanely town, FYI. The scum is in acryon or Newbie.

[blindmewithscience]

BMWS, I want your lynch order. I'll sacrifice myself if it turns out I'm just gonna get lynched in LyLo anyway, and if I agree on the person you're planning to lynch if I die.

Hmm, I really don't feel like I can give a good response to this question. If you die today, then my lynchlist tomorrow is Newbie, acryon, me. And if newbie dies today, it's you in place of newbie tomorrow. I'm still trying to determine who I want to lynch today though. In my eyes, you and Newbie are basically equally scummy ATM, and I don't want to make a final decision yet.
My post in a nutshell: My lynch order is

MD=Newbie

>acryon>me.

[acryon]

Question: as scum, why would I not vote him after the huge wall of evidence I had on him? Why bring up mason-fishing and use that as a reason instead?

This is just WIFOM, so there's no point in answering it directly. But generally speaking, "mason-fishing" is a way more interesting scum-case than the other stuff he was doing.

I also agree that 2071 sounds super town.