Open 579: Pick Your (Chocolate) Power -- Game Over

[droog]

why

[Mathdino]

Scummy =/= scum. No shit it's scummy, Venrob's entire playstyle strikes me as scummy. However, I'm confident he's not lying about his meta (and if he is I fully expect someone to call him out on it pretty soon), so what he's done so far strikes me as null.

Do you think he's scum? Or at least, what are the chances he's scum? Same question goes for me actually.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay.

Got about halfway through page 2 and there was WAY too much setup spec so skipped the rest. Setup spec is bad, especially this early, because you either give away what role you went for or you play scummy and try hide it. Lies, even of omission, shouldn't happen from town, and it's not the right time to massclaim.

Also @ anyone who metas me and has a question they really shouldn't ask me, the answer is either "Yes" or "No", depending on what you ask. And this is probably way too blatant.

Following venrob - I've played this setup a TON since 472. And 472 was really, really dumb. I seem to remember one game having the 2nd pick scum try for jailkeeper and get VT - like, you can't check how many times scum pick a role you have to check how many times a role is picked as scum. If that makes sense? Also, for those interested in looking there was a recent PyP that got abandoned, ummm... Open 567

Also, sheeping math

VOTE: amy farrah fowler

Pedit: Welp.

[Mathdino]

You know Siveure, if you're scum, sheeping me is a pretty good excuse to mislynch someone without accountability

Regardless, I suggest we keep the setup spec to the people at the bottom of the draft, since at that point whatever role you picked doesn't really matter anyway and you can probably just go for your favourite.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

What? Am I not accountable for sheeping?

[farside22]

On droog: 37 and 61 show what look like fairly genuine town perspectives, and 61 is just a good post in general, using RVS to the fullest.

On Alchemist and Flubber: Hmm. While I agree that Alchemist's defence of Flubber may be

incorrect

, I'm finding it difficult to call it scummy. Consider: Saying it's null "Even if he exaggerated his anger" doesn't really have much scum motivation if Flubber's town, and if they're both scum I find it difficult to believe Alchemist would be a scumbuddy apologist.
If anything, what's worse about Alch's ISO is the naked vote on wgeurts, but I'm waiting on an explanation for that one.

Edit: Okay, so what was the point of that statement I quoted?

If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game.

I find it odd he is stepping in for flubbernugget. It pings me as insincere.
but so far out of everything said thus far it is my first ping.
What do you think about my suggestion of shooting night 2?

See the issue I'm having with Amy is the underhandedness of the statement "If you're scum then this is a nice way early on to start lining up mislynches for later on in the game" without even scumreading me. It's like "Okay, that action is potentially beneficial for scum". Well that's great. So are most actions. She's throwing out reasons to be suspicious of the theory debate without any conviction.
Also, while farside provides examples and from what I understood, good reasoning on why some assumptions I made were wrong, Amy's reads more like "Well I dunno, PGO

could

be useful, right?" which seems a bit off.

I'm not throwing out reasons to be suspicious. While I dislike theory debates, they're pretty null to me. And I can throw out statements without said statement automatically being attached to a read going one way or the other. It doesn't signify a lack of conviction. I'm not going to make a non-RVS vote for someone for one post.

So I don't really have a good history, everyone always reads me as scum.

Did I miss someone asking for your scum history or are you just throwing this out here?
Because if this is out of the blue then saying 'I'm always scumread' is sure a great way to get people off your back for a while.

nobody asked
does this indicate scum?

I officially feel invisible.
I asked Venrob after his comment about how he plays as scum.

Amy: I asked about any town reads or if anything a feeling you have about anyone thus far other then dino.

[droog]

You know Siveure, if you're scum, sheeping me is a pretty good excuse to mislynch someone without accountability

thank you for providing the definition of sheepinc

[Mathdino]

@farside: Shooting N2 doesn't really have many downsides IMO, I'd be fine with it. Want more discussion on this before solidifying a plan, also wanna think about it a bit more, so I'll get back to you if I've got any new thoughts.

@Siveure/droog: It was a joke mocking Amy's 'if you're scum' thing. Finding Siv's reaction a bit weird but I guess it makes sense if you took that seriously.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Druuge, 8, post-editing a random vote is just like la wow! Far Side of the Moon asked the same in 16.
Druuge, 20, Romitelli's vote is pretty much null, trust me, he has damm good reasons for that. ^_^
MathDino's 30: Vigilante is not essentially scum-role. The other three roles are scummy indeed. Also, see my answer for Amy's post below!
I think you've misread the previous games, MathDino, in 32.
Hayate's analysis in 34 seems to be good about the past games. I agree: it's unlikely that they went for doubling a number.
I can add another game which was abandoned: The scums picked Vigilante, Tracker (instead of Jailkeeper) and ? (the third scum was the last player in the draft.)
Amy, 40 – it's strange that you tried to explain the town-benefit of those roles and you didn't even mentioned the possibility that a town might choose a role just to f-ck the scums. That's also possible.
Mathdino, 41, you're wrong about a Vig. Even if the town decides whom to shoot, the scums can still Roleblock/Jail the Vig and poof, the whole use of that PR is gone.
Amy, 48, and that was off-phased about scums picking numbers. That topic had been discussed ages ago and you posted since that part without mentioning it.

By the way, hi everyone, and hi again for those whom I know from other games! ^_^

Stopped at Page two, we're doing the shopping plus I'm hungry. I'm going on later.
And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

[farside22]

Ooooo aneninen gave me another reason I hadn't thought about. If scum have the JK or RB and the vig is town letting the vig decide to shoot and saving the shot or saying vig you decide to shot between X and Y is another thing.

That's if the vig is town and the player picked vig.

Damn my lets wifom scum meter is now in overdrive thinking of multiple viable's

[Mathdino]

You just got me thinking about what if we voted on who the vig should shoot and have them remain silent, but then I realised that if the scum have JK, and they probably do given history, they could easily just jail the player we want vig to shoot. :/

Scratch the entire vig discussion then. However, I still think all this applies to vengeful. If someone claims vengeful, we should immediately start voting on who they should shoot IMO. And... scream at them if they don't shoot town's choice?

[davesaz]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

[farside22]

You just got me thinking about what if we voted on who the vig should shoot and have them remain silent, but then I realised that if the scum have JK, and they probably do given history, they could easily just jail the player we want vig to shoot. :/

Scratch the entire vig discussion then. However, I still think all this applies to vengeful. If someone claims vengeful, we should immediately start voting on who they should shoot IMO. And... scream at them if they don't shoot town's choice?

hmmmm

con: town could be the vengeful and the agreed upon player is town. That means 2 town dead Bu day 1
Pro: Scum could be the target or the vengeful.


I'd want to feel really, really sure of my reads to take a risk. I have seen both town and scum vengeful. I don't want to give too much away if vengeful was picked on what happened. But I have a thought if you want to humor me for a moment.

[Alchemist21]

@Mathdino: The wgeurts vote was just an attempt in getting him to post more so I might be able to get a read on him. I don't mind keeping it there until he comes back though. P.S. I had no idea wgeurts hates RVS. He openly participates in it.

@Farside: There's no scum motivation for flubber faking his emotion. Some people just exagerate things when they talk because that's who they are. There are plentynof people who say, "I was so fucking pissed," when really they were only moderately annoyed. Being mad over losing out on the draft is null, and exaggerating any emotion about it has no scum motivation because it won't get him anywhere.

TL;DR I think his post shows his personality, not scumminess.

[farside22]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

What?

How is that a trust tell if he didn't mention it in another game?

[farside22]

@Mathdino: The wgeurts vote was just an attempt in getting him to post more so I might be able to get a read on him. I don't mind keeping it there until he comes back though. P.S. I had no idea wgeurts hates RVS. He openly participates in it.

@Farside: There's no scum motivation for flubber faking his emotion. Some people just exagerate things when they talk because that's who they are. There are plentynof people who say, "I was so fucking pissed," when really they were only moderately annoyed. Being mad over losing out on the draft is null, and exaggerating any emotion about it has no scum motivation because it won't get him anywhere.

TL;DR I think his post shows his personality, not scumminess.

Your talking to a player that speaks highly emotional and understands it more then most.
Fake reads and emotion = fake
Not hey I don't mean it but it's there. Also last time I dealt with Flubbernugget I don't recall emotion at all from him. Being pissed about not getting an someone picking your number and ending up low is natural. Being fake pissed is weird and unnecessary.

[Mathdino]

@davesaz: Also, as trust tells are banned, you might wanna read up to make sure and contact the mod and not us.

@farside: It's an extra lynch if we lynch town. Lynches are good, especially since leashing the vengeful essentially gives us a redo if they flip town. 2 town COULD be dead but we face that danger with any lynch.
And if the venge is scum then it's just a waste of time.

Here's my idea:

If we L-1 someone and they claim vengeful, we agree to lynch that person no matter what because leaving them alive puts them in the scum's hands and we don't want to get into a NK WIFOM discussion of why they're alive the next day. At that point, we start voting on who they should vengekill. If you're a town vengeful, you need to know that giving town discussion on kills is absolutely best for town.

@Alchemist: Pressure vote is meh, wgeurts could just not be online. Don't like it.

[farside22]

@davesaz: Also, as trust tells are banned, you might wanna read up to make sure and contact the mod and not us.

@farside: It's an extra lynch if we lynch town. Lynches are good, especially since leashing the vengeful essentially gives us a redo if they flip town. 2 town COULD be dead but we face that danger with any lynch.
And if the venge is scum then it's just a waste of time.

Here's my idea:

If we L-1 someone and they claim vengeful, we agree to lynch that person no matter what because leaving them alive puts them in the scum's hands and we don't want to get into a NK WIFOM discussion of why they're alive the next day. At that point, we start voting on who they should vengekill. If you're a town vengeful, you need to know that giving town discussion on kills is absolutely best for town.

@Alchemist: Pressure vote is meh, wgeurts could just not be online. Don't like it.

I'm thinking crazy for a moment.


I'm hypothetically a vengeful townie. I would target Alchemist if I was lynched

[Alchemist21]

I wasn't expecting immediate results from him, just expected that he would respond to the vote at some point. I'm trying to get early reads on the ones I've played with before.

@Farside, you're right about it being unneccessary. It doesn't achieve anything as either alignment, which is why I'm not scumreading it.

[Mathdino]

Then hypothetically I'd argue with you the entire day about why you should go with the majority vote.

That said, as of the wgeurts vote explanation, current scumreads are Amy, Alch, and Flubber (though I'm iffy on the latter 2 both being scum), so I wouldn't cry over it.

Edit: Alchemist, please give your top scumread or any reads if existent. The fact is that you changed your RVS vote to someone as pressure when there was no indication that he

wouldn't

come back, all the while RVS votes are pretty much for reactions in the first place.

[farside22]

Then hypothetically I'd argue with you the entire day about why you should go with the majority vote.

That said, as of the wgeurts vote explanation, current scumreads are Amy, Alch, and Flubber (though I'm iffy on the latter 2 both being scum), so I wouldn't cry over it.

Edit: Alchemist, please give your top scumread or any reads if existent. The fact is that you changed your RVS vote to someone as pressure when there was no indication that he

wouldn't

come back, all the while RVS votes are pretty much for reactions in the first place.

I'm stubborn. You can argue with me but unless you can convince me I'm wrong and by your list you don't disagree I'll be keeping my vote there for now.

[davesaz]

And don't forget our kitty! He's sleeping next to the keyboard which is good, because he's sleeping not NO the keyboard. And everyone knows if I didn't post anything about him that would be scummy.

Not disparaging the kitty in any way, but this feels trust-telly to me. Don't remember if you've mentioned him in my other games you've been in.

I think Aneninen just likes to talk about the kitty. Research showed that the kitty is mentioned in a completed game where Anen was scum. The other games where I didn't remember if it was mentioned can't be used as evidence yet anyway. The "everyone knows" language is what made me want to look. It looks like kitty mentions are a recent thing.

[Alchemist21]

Then hypothetically I'd argue with you the entire day about why you should go with the majority vote.

That said, as of the wgeurts vote explanation, current scumreads are Amy, Alch, and Flubber (though I'm iffy on the latter 2 both being scum), so I wouldn't cry over it.

Edit: Alchemist, please give your top scumread or any reads if existent. The fact is that you changed your RVS vote to someone as pressure when there was no indication that he

wouldn't

come back, all the while RVS votes are pretty much for reactions in the first place.

Sorry, but I don't have any scumreads at the moment. Also, I knew wgeurts' reaction wouldn't be the only reaction I got from the vote. I was hoping there would be scum hard tunnelling me for it, but that didn't happen and the degree of reaction to it from you and Farside seem town to me. I'm still happy with you and Droog as town, and now I'm leaning town on Farside as well.

My vote also gives wgeurts something to respond to, since I don't think he would have gotten very involved in the PR theory talk.

[Aneninen]

So,

Alchemystique, 51, let's assume that you're saying the truth. According to the site rules I'm not explaining why. Your vote in 62 – why exactly?
Venrob, 52, you're wrong about those semi-high numbers. Don't you remember our abandoned game? Most of the players chose far-out numbers and there were only five players who doubled/multipled up. Right now I have the same draft with 1 as I had there with 14.
Far

point

side, 55, agreed, a Day1 Vigshot is not too good unless someone does something blatantly scummy and avoids lynch or there's a player who's detrimental to the game. (Though I, personally, disagree with the latter one for the same reason as I disagree with Policy Lynches.)
MathDino, 63, why is Druuge incredibly town? Why are 37 and 61 so town?
Amy, 65 so, you dislike discussing theories and you've still done that. Hmmmmmm... and in 67 I think you misrepresented Venrob.
Siveure DitTrikijp, 77 oh finally, someone tries to stop that rubbish speculation about the Vigs and I-don't-remember-what's. Good sheep, see below!
MathDino, 85, good idea, stop that discussion. (And if anyone wonders why I discussed about the possible roles in that abandoned game, (1) something important was revealed and (2) I was a Neighbourizer there.)
Davesaz, 86, I understand your concerns, but Feliz (our kitty) arrived to our place 3 weeks ago or so, that'swhy you won't find that joke in earlier games. Post-edit: I can see that you realized the same thing in 96.
By the way, do you want a trust tell? Here it comes!

Spoiler:

You Have Been Pigeoned!

Hint: you can see this pigeon ONLY IF I'm town, OR if I'm scum. Trust me, this tell works all the time![/img]

Farside, 92, what was the point of that post? I mean, the "whom would you lynch if you were a Vengeful" thing.

________

Conclusion. Amy is most probably scum. She speculates about "what would be useful for the scum?" things all the time, especially during that Vigilante/Vengeful/Idunnowhat part of the chat. Other reasons are shown in my catch-up.
I wouldn't be surprised if she were a scumVig or a scumVengeful (if she were town, she would stfu about that unless here gameplay were terrible) – or she was going for one of those roles but it was taken by somebody else.
Farside and Mathdino appears to be town. Maybe Davesaz too. Siveure is being Siveure. Venrob is hmmm... I don't know yet and the same goes for Alchemystique.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amy Farrah Fowler

[droog]

dino, are you scum
there's somethinga ubobt your potsts that reminds me of
johnny depp dancing around the deck of a capsizing ship
as if you're wandering from thought to thought
trying to make yourself seem town