You could be anyone II - Game Over

[d3x]

Hiiii Majiffy.....

[d3x]

Vote:TheWayItEnds

There is no safety here.

[d3x]

Being off the Wagon is for suckers.

[d3x]

I like my flakes frosted... and PL'ed.

Vote:Wake

[d3x]

<insert vogue statement about the unwieldy length and speed of Larges>

@Kthx- Why the break in protocol? Why did you pick Wake over the other Wagons?

I can get behind this.

Vote:TiphaineDeath

I'd also be more than willing to Wagon up Yiley or mollie at this juncture.

[d3x]

Gut.

[d3x]

we could get competing wagons on td and d3x that should be interesting.

I endorse this product or service.

[d3x]

<3 mollie

[d3x]

Hey mollie, why IaI?

[d3x]

@Titus- Why wouldn't I?

[d3x]

@d3x, No player should want to be wagoned. It makes no sense. Being wagoned is against wincon.

This is very much not true on a lot of levels, but it could easily descend into a distracting theory debate. Suffice to say, being Wagoned =/= being Lynched.

@mollie- That's fair. I still think the choice between the 2 is clear. I'm glad you agree.

[d3x]

@mollie- What do you think of Kthx right now?

[d3x]

I've never played with either.

I dislike TD's contributions thus far, esp p326. Overall, he feels like he's trying to skate without making waves.

To me IaI just RVS posted twice. I see your point, but I don't neccessarily agree with your conclusion.

[d3x]

I come from an era?

/sigh

I'm waiting on certain Tells and I don't want to influence them too much either way. I'm not feeling great about him, though.

[d3x]

--Noteable News Update--

mollieWagon is off the table for me.

[d3x]

I agree but do you see kthnx leaving any waves in his wake?

I've found that this isn't nearly as solid of a metaTell for Kthx as it has been in the past. He's been playing a lot {without me} and I think he's gotten a lot better at D1s as Town.

[d3x]

He's been better at being TownRead by others. I don't know that his sig applies much any more. He's never really made many waves as Scum, he's always felt like helpful Town. TownKthx has been the one that makes waves D1.

p.edit- I think you'll find the amount of static has largely subsided, though Majiffy.

[d3x]

I refer back to my previous statements. Him not making waves at this juncture is largely Null.

I'll give you my Read on him after he's posted some more.

[d3x]

@Kthx- How closely were you following the game when you Voted for Wake?

[d3x]

@Kthx- How closely were you following the game when you Voted for Wake?

What? The RVS crap?

Less the 'RVS crap' and more the Voting.

What do you think of Jiffy?

Meh. What are your thoughts on him?

@mollie- What's the difference between Rach and inte and Lucky? None have posted, but Rach is the only one of the three you've listed as a 'person of interest'.

[d3x]

@TSO- Unless I missed an UnVote, he's already Voting TD.

p.edit- I think I'm curious as to why she specifically listed certain players over others.

[d3x]

I'm curious if it's a deliberate choice due to meta. I don't think I've played with any of the 3 before.

[d3x]

Also D3X's Post on me is shit. Anyone who knows anything about me at all ever knows that I would never attempt to skate notice and not make waves as town or scum, for any reason, it goes against how I play mafia.

Thank you for proving my point. Not only do I know nothing about you {should I?}, you've continued to post in a manner that gives nothing to work with and makes no waves.

[d3x]

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I completely understand the words. I'm just not seeing anything that shows me I'm wrong... aside from you telling me that I am.

Let me put this another way, what would you say has been your greatest contribution to the game thus far?

[d3x]

So far? Haven't really managed all that much yet.

Awesome, now we're speaking the same language. So, you've done pretty much nothing. How is that different from what I said? Why did you instantly get all high and mighty about HOW. YOU. DO. NOT. DO. THAT. when you just admitted that YOU. ARE. DOING. THAT.?

For clarity's sake, I'm saying that you're posting and ultimately doing nothing. You are in turn posting to say that you've done nothing.

[d3x]

That is where you and I disagree, it seems. I've just given a pretty textbook definition of

Active

Lurking. I find that to be much worse.

Roll on, TDWagon.

[d3x]

Vote:Wake

[d3x]

Remind me to take a closer look at Wake88—he stands out, but I can't pinpoint it.

Is it because his catchup has nothing to do with the game... like at all? His posts are almost exclusively all pointing out hydra 'crumbs', flavor discussion, questions re: alt speculation, or requests for others to engage him.

Why don't you come join me and get a Wagon running.

Wake vs TD. GO!!

[d3x]

I'll keep the engine running for you.

[d3x]

@IAI, Book of Shadows Mollie walked in, acted confused and never provided any substance during day 1. It was perpetual "confusion" despite nothing confusing happening. She was so obviously scum there Desp and I bussed her to victory. She's learned a bit since then. Her later posting appears townie but the same opening gives off alarm bells for me.

I disagree strongly with this sentiment. Not only do I not see the parallels from BoS, but I do not in the slightest see mollie being 'confused' here. Please back that up with examples. The Win also had little to nothing to do with your Bus on her, ftr. Town had some serious fucking problems in BoS. There was only one MisLynch and we ended up in LyLo due to a ModKill and back-to-back No Lynches. Apathy won you guys that game, not the Bus.

[d3x]

@d3x Mollie's first post was that of confusion which was the sane stance she tookall of day 1. Her content has been improving but I am suspicious whenever Mollie is confused without a specific question.

I'm sorry, but what? So the only back up you have to mollie being confused is this?

hi guyz

whats going on

"What's going on" is a common greeting.

Aside from that, mollie's play here and in BoS is night and day different. I see no commonalities between the two and am hard pressed to believe that you do. Is BpS your only experience with mollie?

On another note- Do you find none of these things legitimately scummy? Do you find Active Lurking to be legitimately scummy?

[d3x]

@Titus. Answer me, plz.

[d3x]

It's not 'up to interpretation'. She made a post that she makes in a seeming majority of games that is simply and provably a common greeting that is being used in the manner that a greeting would be used without a question mark.

What "patterns" are you refering to? You keep alluding to vague things that you aren't backing up with examples.

You also dodged my question about TD. I didn't ask you what you thought of the Wagon, I asked you if you agreed or disagreed that a certain list of actions were scummy. I aslo asked you if you thought Active Lurking was scummy.

And why are you attempting to redirect to FF? I didn't ask anything about them, nor have I spoken about/to them at all. I also went back and checked. Not only has FF not mentioned you since p[post]646[/post, but they didn't say anything negative about you at all. They have since posted multiple times speaking to multiple players and listing multiple Reads.

[d3x]

I'll get more specific later tonight, but I wanted to say that Titus' view of the gamestate is very perplexing to me. I can't quite decide if it's scummy or not, but it definitely doesn't line up with what I see.

[d3x]

People I'd be happy seeing swing Today {in no particular order}:

Yiley
Wake
inte
TD
Titus

re: Kthx- The problem here is that his blatant refusal to read and his willingness to Sheep aren't really indicative of either alignment. I wouldn't be heartbroken to see him go, but I don't have a solid ScumRead on him. I have him as a weak NullScum atm.

[d3x]

Vote:TiphaineDeath

[d3x]

@mollie-

re: Kthx- He's just following me around and it's making me all ugh. He usually does that a bit, then forms his own Reads, and then flips out in the last few moments of D1 and calls me Scum. D2 he's usually a lot more reasonable and drops some serious proTown stuff. It just isn't sitting right with me that he's seemingly refusing to really read anything, which for all his antiD1 blustering, he enevitably always reads by now. He's proxying his Vote to me in spite of his assertion that he's going to be Voting the largest Wagon {note- I have been off of the largest Wagon for ages and he's followed me to each one}. It's not enough to make me think he's hard Scum at this point, but it definitely doesn't leave me with any warm and fuzzies. Hell, he should be cranking into his 'd3x should know I'm Town' bit by now. By the way, your stages of Kthx's boredom made me lose my shit laughing...

re: TownReads- Aside from you, Mom just jumped to the top of my list. Everyone has been avoiding me by a large radius because I'm apparently uberTown right now. I don't see her coming in here and naysaying that at the risk of earning Town's ire if she's Scum. I feel good about the following players to a lesser degree... AJ, Majiffy, SC, and vezo.

Although it was clarified that it was less to me than others, I am less in favor of a FFWagon and when I saw it was in the lead, I decided to throw back into TD knowing that I'd bring Kthx's Vote along.

[d3x]

I guess I hit submit before I finished my thought. I've never left off of TDScum, I just wanted to see if people would flow to a counterWagon of a similar player. No one bit. I find that rather interesting and will be looking back at it once we've had a few flips.

[d3x]

Ugh... I don't like going 2 days without posting. I'll read up while the baby's napping tomorrow. I'll make sure to look at Josh when I do.

[d3x]

Yeah, I didn't really like p894, but I wasn't a huge fan of p898 either. I'm not a fan of the multiball spec until we have a reason to spec on multiball. There is currently 0 evidence to support it unless you are on a ScumTeam that doesn't have a proportionatly appropriate roster size. In which case, please, continue talking about how it's plausible that we're looking at multiball.

@Garmr- What purpose does this post serve? What question do you feel you've answered by petting yourself there?

Guess what, I haven't read since the last time I posted. I was told people were spamming though and I am lazy.

Who told you that?

Please read 908 "I am scum and don't want to die so I am voting the other guy with the most votes on him."

Then why aren't you Voting him?

i get like 5 pages done and another 10 pop upp

Almost an entire week has passed. Why are you surprised that the speed of the game has continued? Why are you wasting time/posts belabouring this point?

Someone add inte to my List.

@mollie&Garmr- I had the opposite reaction to recent End's posts. Where are you getting ScumVibes?

mollie... love... Not_Mafia isn't in this game. Not the mafia is. He only has 23 posts on site.

However... I did notice something when I was checking in on his profile.It's funny you should mention this Ends,

Like if you wanna point out that he checked the site yesterday and didnt make a post...

Then yeah. Thats kinda suspicious.

Last visited: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:35 pm

The dude hasn't posted since 9/25, but he

has

been onsite recently.

@mollie- Why no hate towards Yiley?

[d3x]

For those keen enough to note that I didn't discuss Josh, I intend on doing that seperately sometime soonish.

[d3x]

I'm keeping up with the game,but I am being replaced, so i dont feel right to vote. If I did vote I would most likely be voting Td

I have serious problems with this post {along with the remainder of Yiley's Iso}. There are so many problems. I would not be heartbroken if we FlashWagoned him into the ground.

I still support a TD Lynch, but right now...

Vote:Yiley

[d3x]

re: Kthx- I have serious reservations.

Nully points- He hates Larges. He hates D1s. He hates spammy posters.
Scummy points- He tried to force my Read on him early. He hasn't risen to any of my bait attempts. He isn't engaging with his targets when he chooses to engage, it's mostly surface scratching.
Towny points- He is being relatively transparent.

[d3x]

@mollie- Maybe I'm not using the phrase the same way you're using it. He's not being cagey or sneaky about things. His posting feels pretty 'up front' to me. If not for those other points, I'd be mostly fine with him.

[d3x]

Here's my case on Yiley.

6 posts. 0 content. Acknowledgement that he's posting to 'keep up' with the game, while making 0 effort to participate. No Reads. No Votes. Nothing to go off of but a complaint that he's being force-replaced while whining about his adherence to Active Lurking.

@mollie- I hear you loud and clear, that's why I have Kthx leaning Scum. There's too much interference/circumstantial evidence to make it more than a lean at this point. I guess what bothers me the most about his play here is that while Sheeping me isn't ooc for TownKthx, he's not really doing anything

but

Sheep me. You're right in that he's not being his playful/impish self. The problem is, I can't really see him ignoring our concerns over him as either Scum or Town. I'll look into our Large games together, but I don't know if I've seen ScumKthx in a Large.

[d3x]

Iso and find out. If there's a question you'd like me to answer, please plainly ask.

re: Kthx- I just checked and we've only been in 2 Larges together. They were both TownKthx. He replaced into one, but the other had him quite a bit more active. The meta dive is ultimately useless, imo.

[d3x]

Dude, Yiley has done nothing at all ever and has just admitted that he was trying to successfully coast through the Day. Lots of players have "done zilch recently", but that doesn't mean they're all equal.

I made my feeling known about the FF Wagon awhile back and that sentiment hasn't changed. To reiterate- I'm not in favor of the FFWagon.

If you want to change my opinion on the matter, don't tell me that they're not doing anything. Sum up the case and tell me why I should join up.

[d3x]

I feel that it's a bit more than just a Lurker Lynch. He's not only aware he was Lurking, he was targeting his Lurking to keep in the game. He was actively attempting to coast as long as possible. It's a question of degrees, in my book.

[d3x]

@Kthx- Why does TD need to be closer to death?

[d3x]

Doesn't have to be TD. I don't care who it is outside of my town reads. TD is just the largest wagon.

Then why have you been consistantly following me and jumping off the main Wagons? Aside from being annoyed by their earlier posting diarrhea, what's your Read on FF?

[d3x]

Some random, quick thoughts...

The initial growth of the HI Wagon is justified, but I buy his explanation. The early case is more compelling than the later push, imo. I find it to be a ridiculous gambit as Scum to Claim and say that your Role is useless just because you didn't understand the rules regarding Role distribution. I'm not willing to Lynch here Today.

If TD flips Scum, Garmr1327 should be revisited posthaste.

I like Mom's 1330.

I don't like the feel of Titus re: the issue of HI Claiming.

TSO's p1482 doesn't sit right with me, but it does help me TownRead Kthx a bit more based on his reaction. I think ScumKthx would make more of an issue and push a mis'rep beef.

I'm fine with TD being run back up.

Vote: tiphaine death

[d3x]

ftr, I read this the other day...

games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie.

[d3x]

Not much, I'm just responding to Titus's point.

Anyone with FBI agent would not doubt the presence of an SK.

[d3x]

These are thoughts for me to go over later tonight when I don't have a 2yr old running around demanding attention.

One of these is Scum...

FFAE00 FFED00

(4): Titus, Garmr,

vezokpiraka

, Not the mafia

That's the first FFWagon.

FFAE00 FFED00

(5): Titus,

vezokpiraka

, Not the mafia, Majiffy, I Am Innocent

That's the time FFWagon was the clear lead and gaining steam.

-Cross reference those who are antiMultiBall with only 1 flip against those who were proMultiBall with 0 information to suggest it.

-Look for TD's rationale for no Vote on TSO b/c 'one of FF&TSO is Scum'.

-Forgetting 3rd important point to look over. Baby is trying to break things...

[d3x]

How about we all agree to stop discussing the setup until we get more information? Calling this MultiBall D1 was stupid. Using a single point of data to then continue setup speculation is almost as bad.

If we have a second Night of a single death, I'll sing a different tune. Even if we don't, I don't see that as damning given the FBI Claim. As I pointed out before, the wiki says the inclusion of an FBI Agent doesn't mean that there is an SK.

re: the early FFWagon-

Titus- I feel like I want Titus to seem scummier based on the Wagon, but I just can't get behind it. Is it impossible for her to be the early Scum? No. I'm just not reading it that way at this juncture.

Garmr- Ugh. His Iso re:FF feels really 'put upon' to me. I don't like it. His interactions after the blow up don't feel really honest, either. Real possibility to be the early Scum.

NtM{HI}- Not enough information in regards to the FFWagon. The Vote dropped and then he flaked.

Majiffy- I don't really have a problem with the early Vote. Staying on there is a bit meh, though.

IaI- His case on FF feels legit. I don't have a problem here.

Summation-

Vote:Garmr

@TD- How do you feel about TSO right now?

[d3x]

That's some Class 1 Grade A MisLynch shaming right there, Josh. Could you point out the place you said this while FF was being run up? Because I just checked through your Iso and couldn't find it. Or maybe you'd like to delve even the slightest into some Analysis?

While on the exact opposite side of the spectrum...

@Titus- Ugh.

[d3x]

That was a terribad post. I've {recently} listed my thoughts on you, so don't even pretend that "ugh" is the only thing I've said to/about you.

[d3x]

Not to mention that the context clues in that post say everything I need to say about my further thoughts.

[d3x]

Orly? Why exactly did it need to be said?

[d3x]

Lord, grant me patience.

As a result, games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie.

This is about the 3rd time I've posted this or referenced it.

[d3x]

@HI- Who's not an SK?

[d3x]

@HI- It's d3x, and I must've missed it the 1st time around. I found it now. Thank you

[d3x]

How many people pushing the HIWagon think he's Scum and how many think he's an SK?

[d3x]

Your initial point actually brought up this question, Coug. I know your answer.

@Nero- It does matter, yeah. I want to hear from some more people before saying why, though. I think the distinction is rather important.

Vote:Josh

[d3x]

So noted. Thank you, Nero.

[d3x]

Briefly, HI makes 0 sense as GroupScum.

GroupScumHI Claims FBI with no evidence one way or the other as to the existence of an SK. Why would he do that? If he's actually GroupScum, he's taking a

giant

risk: an SK in a 25p isn't that farfetched. He {as GroupScum} would be calling down the thunder on himself. Being GroupScum gives you a good idea whether we're in a MultiBall game or not, but the number in your ScumTeam isn't as good of a setup tell for the existence {or more importantly lack} of an SK. I see no Scum motivation to wanting yourself NKed.

Thus, those making the argument that he's GroupScum need to explain the situation to me in how it's advantageous for him to Claim as such {especially well before L-1}.

Those making the argument that he's an SK likewise have a weak platform to stand on. There is 0 evidence to suggest that an SK exists. As previously stated, not even the existence of an FBI Agent is a reliable barometer.

[d3x]

I'm saying, as I have been saying, that the wiki itself says that an FBI Agent Role does not guarantee the existence of an SK. If the wiki entry is saying that the Role is a red herring, I see no reason to think otherwise.

[d3x]

I'll get to it later tonight. I'm out with the family for some preHalloween fun rimes.

[d3x]

@Auntie J- My thoughts thus far Today are a bit disjointed, I'll easily give you that. Considering there are 22+1 players alive and any number of the 22 can be Scum; I will probably jump around a bit in my focus to find said Scum.

I do think that there is Scum in the early push on FF. I didn't feel good about the Wagon when it kicked up the first time and I likewise didn't feel good about it just before it rushed into the pole position the second time. The problem is, I'm having a hard time with those early Votes and decyphering which one is bad. They mostly feel legit and I'm an interactive type player, so it may be a bit before I hone in on the rotten spot.

re: Josh. MisLynch shaming is uber scummy in my book, especially to the extent that Josh undertook. To stand there and say it was a shitshow Wagon is pretty brazen. That would be tempered if he took that position Yesterday, but I not only couldn't remember him standing staunchly against it, I couldn't find it, either. When he came back with defense of his statements Today with that bs handwaving, not about the Wagon being "nonsense", but TD's either/or statement being bad, it put me over the edge. He is blatantly MisLynch shaming and is trying to defend that stance with a single out of context quote to make it look like he fought the good fight Yesterday as well. Of note, the defense he made of his stance against the FFWagon was literally hundreds of posts before the FFWagon actually took off. He made that post when the Wagon was at L-10, I think.

Oh, and I also just noticed this little gem. In said post where he's standing against the FF injustice, he quoted the following as proof that he held the same opinion Yesterday...

This is mafia, not eenie meenie miney moe.
TSO or FF are scum. pfft.

...but his next 2 words are...

Just playing.

Yeah. He was really against that Wagon, alright.

Moral high ground secured. Please go back to saying how you thought the Wagon was "nonsense", Josh.

[d3x]

@Kthx- Thoughts on Josh?

[d3x]

Thoughts on p2047?

[d3x]

And I love that you skipped over the thrust of the case to Strawman the "just kidding" addendum.

Moar Votes, plz.

[d3x]

First

-

@Mod

We have people who haven't posted Today.

Second

-

Also @Mod

We have multiple people who are due for prods even with the weekend counting as a single day.

Third

-

Time for new business.

I was having a bit of a hard time following the House v TSO fight before it boiled over. I couldn't really tell what the fight was about and I thought that the jabs on both sides were coming from a place of misunderstanding that had little to do with alignment indicative stances. After reviewing/reading the intervening fighting and subsequent fallout, I still largely feel that way.

re:TSO's case on House- I feel that there's not much compelling stuff there. I've read the case multiple times and I just don't see what the fuss is. Do I think TSO is manufacturing things? Not really. I do not, however agree that the conclusions he's reached are that damning.

On a side note, I'd really like TSO to respond to my question re: HI.

Lastly

-

I implore all who are iffy on the Josh situation to read his Iso, specifically during this TSO/House fight. The part in p2197 where he downplays the Wagon on him by saying that it never caught traction is particularly interesting, imo. Lumping my reasoning in with his {"neither of us really got the traction that I was hoping for"} is a super weasley way of aligning himself with the TownCred I have and trying to gloss over the situation.

I beseech you all to Vote:Josh.

[d3x]

@Titus- Clearly you haven't read the Day, so I'm not going to ask you if you had, but what Policy do you think I'm evoking to get a PL on Josh? Also, answer my question re: HI.

@Josh-

Spoiler: Define TownCred

d3x - town. like I do not even have to think twice about it.

just because D3x is one of the two towniest players (along with TWIE) in my opinion.

For reals though, I like d3x for town.

{Jemima, d3x, TSO, Garmr, Mollie, Vezok}
Dem towns.

Town
d3x

@SC- Your presence on the JoshWagon has been requested.

[d3x]

Weren't you calling that scum-indicative?

...no?

[d3x]

TD being the only one that we seem to fully agree on, I say that he's probably the only reasonable lynch for today.

Then... Vote him? Unless I'm misunderstanding your use of "he".

[d3x]

@Titus- I've asked you questions. Please at least pretend you're reading the thread more deeply than a post or two.

@Garmr-

Hell the only one mentioning multiball day one was you

<mollie>

and you were obsessed with it.

This is super laughable considering Josh brought multiball into the equation ~30 posts before mollie and you quoted him on it when it happened and then again here when you call it Null.

--side note--

While searching for the extent of multiball infractions, I ran across this gem where Titus tries to pain FF as scummy by lying about their "recent" actions. I did a quick look back and FF was the leading Wagon at the time. Titus says that there had been "large resistance" against this leading Wagon. I was unable to find said resistance.

[d3x]

@Titus- Why are you ignoring me?

[d3x]

@Josh- Again... if TD is 'the only reasonable Lynch for Today', why are you not Voting for him?

[d3x]

@Garmr- Well since we're apparently type-casting each other without any history or basis of fact, you seem like the kind of person to take things personally, blow them out of propotion, and fly off the handle irresponsibly.

But my case isn't laugable like the case(lack of) you used to vote me

I didn't call your case laughable. I called the specific point that I quoted laughable. And it is. Yesterday, you engaged with Josh about something that you are now standing on as a behaviour unique to mollie. That's patently ridiculous.

re: my justification to Vote you early D2, I stand behind it. There was a lack of a case {thank you for so aptly pointing it out}, because there wasn't meant to be a case. It was pure PoE. I stand behind that Vote 100% as a good starting point for the Day.

josh thinks it's multiball in a reaction to me trying to hunt for connections between people when i qt hunted

The interesting thing about this is Josh's original posts about multiball have seemingly nothing to do with you. Specifically, he's talking about his meta experience with jT's previous large games and TD's reaction to his stance on the original TSO/FF speculation. Why do you think it has anything to do with you?

ftr- My Read on mollie has little to nothing to do with her Read on me, this is hardly my first rodeo, little buckaroo. I can maybe see how you'd think that due to the initial interaction between us, but think for a second. I poked her with the early "I'd be willing to run up mollie" statement and her reaction to that helped me develop my Read on her. Note that it took a couple of pages of direct interaction before I was no longer willing to see her strung up.

Also the reason to your latter is titus is scum as well.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here. Maybe take a breath and try again.

q0- Others started the discussion and it pry made meta sense to her. It makes meta sense to me, but I don't really like wasting time discussing setup spec when there is no evidence for/against and we gain nothing by discussing it {at this juncture}.
q1- Maybe because there was only one NK? Also, I feel you're reaching a bit by calling her "obsessed" here and elsewhere.
q2- I disagree with your assessment of her response.
q3- I don't view SC as a "weak" player. I don't view myself as a "weak" player. I don't view Kthx as a "weak" player.

[d3x]

So then you're saying that you have empirical proof that he's as SK? Becuase if not, I want an answer. Why would he, as an SK, Claim FBI D1 without being near Lynch {L-6}?

Wth is 'policy of disagreement'? What exactly do you think we're disagreeing on? Do you think that his p605 is legitimate strong opposition to the FFWagon that then warrants the MisLynch shaming D2?

[d3x]

You seriously aren't reading, are you Titus? Do you find that you don't read the game more as Town or Scum?

The MisLynch shaming isn't the reason I want to Lynch Josh, otherwise I'd have Voted him when he did it. It was after I asked him to back up his position that the issue became Lynch-worthy. He tried to say that he was justified in his position based on his stance Yesterday. He inflated a single remark to show that he staunchly opposed the Wagon. I covered this at length in my p2047. I'd like to hear you response to that.

[d3x]

I'll go into a full read of what I've missed over the holiday weekend tomorrowish. In the meantime...

@Kthx- Do something useful. It's not D1 anymore.

@The mollieWagon- Stop.

@Ank&Kise- Howdysauce!

@Josh- p2498 is terribad. The logic is pretty appalling. If Titus is Scum, then HI has to be SK, because she'd make an honest case against the SK, so Vote:HI? dafuq? That's not really what you're saying... is it?

Seriously, how is the JoshWagon not gaining more traction? Is it because I've been gone a few days?

[d3x]

Oh yeah... and the following people can die in a fire.

Josh, P5, Jackal

There may be more, but those are the forefront off the top of my head.

[d3x]

Could someone please explain HI-town?

I don't see why he's still alive.

I feel like I've said this before... multiple times. I have HI as Town because I can't see him as Scum.

I refuse to believe that Fake Claiming FBI D1 makes any sense as GroupScum b/c I cannot fathom GroupScum calling in a hit on themselves by a potential SK out there. It's a terrible Fake Claim for GroupScum, especially D1 under no real pressure with no information leading to the lack of an SK.

There is no current evidence that there's an SK, so I find it unlikely {although not impossible} that he's an SK, either. I will reevaluate this if there ever turns up evidence that we have an SK. The mere existence of an FBI Agent doesn't even mean that there's an SK in play {per the wiki}.

Thus if for no other reason, PoE thus tells me that he's Town. I've asked for someone to refute this line of thinking, but I don't remember anyone putting up a logical argument more compelling than "derp, he's SK".

[d3x]

If we get anywhere near Endgame and he's still alive as SK w/o submitting NKs, either GroupScum will take him out as Confirmed Town, or he'll have cleared everyone and we Lynch his ass. Either way, I don't see any reason to doubt his Claim D2 with nothing to refute it.

[d3x]

@Josh- I wear glasses. That didn't keep me from noticing that you once again skipped the harder questions leveled at you, this time so that you could engage in a theory debate over whether FBI Agent is an actual Role given to Town players. And my opinion on keeping SKs alive is that I have to believe they exist before making that assessment. There. Is. No. Evidence. That. There's. An. SK. Here.

I have seen far stupider SK play. It's not very likely, but it's definitely possible that he's SK regardless of this.

That's fine, but can we save the SK hunt for when we have any evidence of an SK?

@Kthx- I have her as Town. Why on God's green earth would I be defending her and arguing against her Lynch if I didn't think she was Town? I hear you saying that you're busy, but it's been almost 3 weeks since the Day opened. My patience for your D1 antics is wearing pretty thin.

@SC- What part of p2498 makes sense to you in a way that SK-HI would be a higher priority than GroupScum-Titus?

[d3x]

Almost forgot.

@House- HI cleared Majiffy/Kise. What scenario predicates that either GroupScum or SK HI would need to give RB'ed results? I would assume that any potential RB'er would have far higher priorities than Blocking SK-HI.

[d3x]

Well, it's also a PR that doesn't threaten GroupScum in any way and that they actually would

want

to succeed. Mind you, SK is no friend of GS.

[d3x]

@House- Please answer the same question I asked SC ^^.

[d3x]

I'd like your answer before SC's, if that's at all possible, please.

[d3x]

Short of some kind of Cop damnation, I'm not going to Vote mollie. She is not the Lynch for Today.

It pains me to do this, but...

UnVote:Josh

Good clear, Garmr.

@SC- That makes a surprising amount of sense, although I'm still pretty against the idea that HI is an SK. I feel that this situation will probably sort itself out well before we're in dire need of it to sort itself out. I also think GroupScum Hunting>SK Hunting. We at least know that they're in the game.

@Nero- I believe HI's Claim in as much as I disbelieve that it's a FakeClaim. And I strongly disbelieve that it's a FakeClaim. It may be a difference of semantics, but it's how I feel.

Vote:Jackal

This needs to go away sooner rather than later. I'd also be fine with Lynching P5 as his last actual contribution was over a month ago. I'm more than comfortable with the thought that Scum is easily hiding behind all this apathy and I'd like to shine some light on the mass of shadows over there. Maybe it'll motivate some of the uberLurkers into doing something. Maybe even... *gasp* ...playing Mafia!

I'd be ok with a Titus Lynch, but at this juncture, I'm feeling more bad Town than Scum. I seem to remember her Scum game as considerably tighter than this.

[d3x]

I just said I wanted you dead for not contributing in over a month.

[d3x]

@mollie- I'll look back over his D2 play tonight.

[d3x]

I just finished the Garmr Iso for D2.

@Garmr- What made you Claim when you did? Why didn't you stand against the JoshWagon... like... at all? When did you decide that you were going to Claim Today? Why did you feel the need to "make bs up for Josh"?

[d3x]

ffs...

@Titus- Are you Claiming that you have a result of HI targeting vezo Last Night? Because if you are, why the fuck didn't you say something when he Claimed to have Investigated Majiffy

30 pages ago

!

@Josh- If you hate it so much, stop making shit up about what I'm saying. You are Cleared, so this debate is not going to go anywhere productive with me accusing you of MisReping me. I have said that I don't believe HI is either GS or SK. My stance on Lynching him is not to Lynch him. I have never said anything else. You are trying to paint me as waffling over whether or not he should be Lynched, I am {and have consistently been} saying that I think he's Town. Period. You and others are throwing in hypothetical situations and now you're using my responses to those hypotheticals to make it sound like I'm back and forth over this shit. However derpTitus may have just proven that Read pointless after 30 freaking pages... /smh

[d3x]

UnVote:
Vote:Hostile Intent

30 fucking pages...

[d3x]

You want to rule out fuckery? Then why not just ask Scum to out themselves and tell you if they redirected you...

[d3x]

@mollie- So you think that both Titus and creativity are Scum?

[d3x]

mollie, my love... it just doesn't make sense. We can reevaluate if need be after the flip, but hear me out.

GroupScum Titus should have no interest in offing an FBI Agent. If anything, GS would want the FBI Agent to succeed and then take care of them after the fact. That means that regardless of her alignment, Titus should be telling us the truth. The only threat an FBI Agent is to GS would be in EndGame as a ConfTownie.

I'm not saying that Titus is ConfTown, but her result should be legit. That means that the course of action is to string up HI since he visited vezo Last Night.

It's also pretty improbable that HI got redirected onto vezo. Consider the resources GroupScum would need to employ to frame HI. They would need to Redirect him, Kill vezo, and either know that he was going to be Tracked {TownTitus}, Track him themselves {ScumTitus}, or just risk it and FakeClaim a Tracking result. That's ~3 Night Actions to take care of the FBI Agent, and I've just outlined why GS should be wanting to stick around to succeed.

[d3x]

@Ank- D1 under meh pressure, HI Claimed FBI Agent. The Wagon shifted over to FF for... some reason. D2 started with a bunch of people instantly going after HI and HI Claiming a nonSK result on Majiffy. There was a lot of debate over SK Hunting versus Scum Hunting. After attempting and failing to be coy all frakking Day long, Titus was outted as a Tracker and she gave a result on HI visiting vezo {the only N1 Death}.

[d3x]

Ok, but regardless of Town/ScumTitus, do you think she didn't actually Track HI to vezo? Because if you do believe she Tracked him to vezo, her alignment doesn't enter into the equation, yet.

[d3x]

What do you think we'll bemoan about your play after your flip?

[d3x]

I think Kthx's Vote was the Hammer.

[d3x]

Hey TWiE, why haven't you Voted in the last 50+ pages? It's patriotic, hombre...

[d3x]

Give me a summary of anything you've read that is significant and I'll give you a summary of D1.

[d3x]

lol... Parroting two summaries doesn't count as your own summary, chief. Neither does giving a single read with no reasoning.

[d3x]

12] Once a lynch has been reached, all players, (including the lynched player) may continue to post until I can lock the thread.

[d3x]

You've been here since the start of D2. What makes Tonight different from the last 2 weeks?

[d3x]

Vote:Titus

That's what you need to know, Ank.

[d3x]

Why? SK needs to eliminate the Killing Roles {ie- GroupScum}. It's easier to avoid a Lynch than it is a NK.

Talk to me about your FakeClaim.

[d3x]

That why was to your 1st post, not your 2nd.

[d3x]

The only town role(I assume or why even include fbi agent) that can find you has been eliminated and most townies think you are town. Now the major threat is mafia they have the ability to kill you and end the game if they make up a majority of the votes.

This is precisely why it behooves the SK to off the Mafia.

[d3x]

No track results but a town rb would visit me so yeah.

Why jump to the conclusion that TownRB {pretty rare} stopped you and not ScumRB {very common}?

[d3x]

Also, that's not what TWiE is saying. He didn't say a BP actually happened, he's saying that based on your posting, you

thought

it did.

[d3x]

@Titus- Again I ask, why would GroupScum want HI Framed?

[d3x]

You crumbed to Ika that you were tracker, do I have that rigt?

I find it much more telling of IHNC answers this.

[d3x]

It already has been answered. He thought I was crumbing something that did not exist. I thought I was crumbing tracker. He then gets bored and outs the guilty.

Herein lies the rub. IHNC outted you as an Investigative Role before the revelation of whether Carifelli was a bishop or an Investigative role or w/e. So they

did

understand what you were Claiming. Which is why it was more telling if INHC... answered... first. But thanks for that, Titus...

[d3x]

We're at L-1? Fuck that.

UnVote:

I need to read and sort tonight.

[d3x]

I'm having doubts about Titus and I need to take a step back and reorganize my thoughts. L-1 in just over 24hrs makes sense from the bogus result on HI, but something isn't sitting right.

Assuming that there is credence to the Framer/Redirector argument, IHNC is high on my list of suspects. He understood Titus's Claim D1 and he outted her D2. Assuming he knew the result was bogus, he knew that the shitstorm that would follow over the next few Days.

The only thing I'm having a hard time with is Titus's assertion that she's been set up, but hasn't taken this into account in the least.

In other news...

Vote:Jackal

9 posts between 2 players in that slot. The most recent was the shitshow Vote on mollie {who, I can assure you, is not GroupScum}.

Finally-

@Everyone, but especially {Town?}Titus- Stop fucking SoftClaiming and SoftOutting.

[d3x]

Based on what, exactly?

[d3x]

I'd be 100% fine with Lynching Josh right freaking now.

[d3x]

I don't think scum josh would forget the night kill

Ugh. I guess that makes sense. DrC wasn't the SK Kill. The Reads post felt super manufactured and all kinds of fake. Coupled with his poor attempt to MisRep me Yesterday and the revelation that he wasn't in fact cleared at the time make me want to string him up. But your point holds.

whats the point in having a fbi agent if the town power role is a tracker. It doesn't make sense

I'm not following the logic here and I don't remember this being a discussion point earlier, either. Are you saying that the existence of an FBI Agent somehow makes it unlikely that a Tracker is in the game?

re:Titus-
I'm not Voting her again until we discuss everyone's attitudes towards Jackal.

Show of hands...
Who's ok with his 2 in game posts out of 54 pages he's been 'present' for?
Who's ok with him not participating in another Day?
Who's ok with his scummy WagonVote on mollie Yesterday?
Who's ok with the 6 days it took him to post D2 before allowing the day to expire 7 days later?
Who's ok with this behaviour in the face of Yiley's blatant and admitted Active Lurking?

[d3x]

That's all well and good, but I see no reason to not discuss something that needs to be discussed before ending the Day. I agree that Titus is the Lynch Today. I just don't think we've exhausted the useful information that everyone else seems so keen to rush past. I'm also pretty sure that I've brought this up 3 times before and I don't remember anyone engaging in the discussion. I'd like to get some people to take actual stances this time.

[d3x]

I don't have time to dig into quotes as I'm headed out the door, but Titus's account of events Yesterday doesn't line up with my recollection of their actual occurence.

IIRC, Titus started second guessing the result and mollie picked up on that waffling and by no means lurked through the remainder of the Day. I seem to recall mollie following the result until after the waffling began.

[d3x]

mollie is 100% not our Lynch Today. SKHunting is The Scum's job.

Phone posting. VCA and Isos tonight.

[d3x]

There are a few floating around, but since your slot has literally given nothing to the game and is in the 3rd iteration, I'd really prefer hearing your candid thoughts.

mollie has not Claimed SK, but that is the purveying thought at this point. As her Reads are pretty spot on {IaI and Titus being her 2 biggest if memory serves}, there's no reason for her to Swing. Either she's the SK and being

very

obvious or the SK is using her Reads to frame her. Either way, she/the SK is helping the Town by Hunting Scum. There's almost assuredly still GroupScum in the game and that's where we need to be spending our energy.

[d3x]

@Kthx- No. They're Town PRs as is evidenced by TSO being explicitly a

Town

Bomb. I do not believe there is any such thing as two rival Towns, especially when the generic identifier of "Town" is applied to both.

@Garmr- mollie is not GroupScum. Get over it. I cannot speak to her {not} being the SK.

Vote:Fish

[d3x]

Oh... nvm. For some reason, I thought Garmr was calling mollie GroupScum. He's not. He's saying we should Lynch her based off SK suspicion. This is the wrong play, regardless.

[d3x]

Why is this the wrong play? If she is the sk she killed one of ours last night.

If you're not going to read the game {I don't blame you, there's a lot of boring stuff in there}, please don't act like the Town deaths from the SK weren't justified. Unless you're telling me that you read and had vezo and IHNC as TownReads.

hint- This is a large reason why I'm Voting you right now. That and stuff you can't account for... srrz.

[d3x]

And if you are going to claim that there are other reasons for your vote out them or fuck off.

I have made them known, so feel free to take your own advice. As it is pointless to argue with you that you are Scum {particularly for your previous incarnations, all of whom I've Voted}, I don't feel it necessary to further put up with your bullshit.

I'm calling in markers. This needs to die Today.

[d3x]

@TD- I am terrified that after all this time, your posting is lining up almost 100% with my thoughts/Reads. I'm not really feeling ScumHouse, though. Also explain KthxTown, plz.

@Garmr-

I'm keeping up with the game,but I am being replaced

This is Scum posting.

Let's just lynch this and sort things out tomorrow.

VOTE: pirate mollie

This is Scum posting.

I don't see how they are helping the town when they have taken out two of our numbers. I don't care how scummy those guys were in thread, they were town.

This is Scum posting.

[d3x]

Because that seems unlikely.

I would have said the same about ScumTitus Claiming a Track result on HI to the SK Kill too, but that shit happened. Seriously though, the blowback is largely mitigated by the rampant SK Hunting. There's a large contingent of players that are after mollie for being the SK over GroupScum, so if she flips Town, I don't see anything that will be too damning by itself. This mystery Tell isn't really an issue imo b/c at least one other player has been talking about a mystery Tell of mollie's.

[d3x]

It's not a 1v1 {potential or otherwise} if he's but one of a contingent of voices crying mollieSK.

[d3x]

If this were a GroupScum hunt, I think that'd be a lot more telling than an SK hunt. As there's "common cause" for GS and Town to find the SK, I don't think that this Secret Tell talk is alignment indicative. I think that there's far more compelling evidence that Fish is GS than Town in the grand scheme of things.

mollie's Reads are pretty sound. It seems the SK is basing their shots largely off of mollie's Reads. It behooves the Town to find GS and leave the SK to do what they're doing until we have to deal with the SK {mollie or otherwise}. Trying to find and string up the SK at this juncture is antiTown, imo.

[d3x]

@NC- GS=GroupScum in that post

[d3x]

I had Mom as a TownRead and Ank hasn't done anything to changed that. What's your beef with him, again?

[d3x]

it's just based on the fact the slot was a flake before formerfish came.

That is not the case at all. Why ignore p3296 when I was directly speaking to you?

[d3x]

I'm trying to, but you keep bringing it up.

[d3x]

Can you explain why those would come from scum and not town because just quoting random shit isn't effective.

I'm keeping up with the game,but I am being replaced

This is scummy because it blatantly admits to Active Lurking. It demonstrates a mindset that Yiley was lamenting being force replaced in spite of the fact that he was fulfilling the absolute bare minimum of posting requirements. Iso him, his idea of keeping up with the game entailed 0 content found in 6 posts spread across a week and a half. This does not come from a Town mindset.

Let's just lynch this and sort things out tomorrow.

VOTE: pirate mollie

Jackal's 2nd of 2 posts shows a deliberate Scum mindset. He Votes mollie with seemingly no knowledge of the game {his previous post ~20 days prior said he hadn't read the game and nothing in this one demonstrates to the contrary} right after a VoteCount showing her in the 3rd position. Her Wagon had 0 Votes a page earlier. If he was being honest and just trying to end the Day, why not Vote for a Wagon that was in the lead?

I don't see how they are helping the town when they have taken out two of our numbers. I don't care how scummy those guys were in thread, they were town.

This is scummy because it is ultimately MisLynch shaming {which I've already harped on at length, so I'll spare you my reiterated thoughts}. It

does

matter that the players were ScumReads of multiple players. If you were to replace SK with Vig, the player would be praised to no end for hitting one Scum correctly and eliminating scummy/grey players from the MisLynch pool.

Btw how can you not see how hard mollie is buddying you mate (insert inappropriate joke right here.)

I feel like we've covered this, but if you want to keep bringing it up, I'll be more than happy to keep saying the same thing...

Also notice how the sk night kill was one of my scum reads this time. Seems like someone wanted to set me up as sk I wonder who was pushing that. (mollie)

By this logic, the SK can't be mollie b/c the 1st 2 targets were her ScumReads...

[d3x]

Hey Nero... who's your teammate?

I think my teammate has a good point in the it looks like Mollie doesn't give a shit who gets lynched

[d3x]

Hey TD... what was this about?

Yeeeup, titus and house are scum together, and house still isn't paying any attention, or is attempting to pretend he isn't.

VOTE: Titus

Get in the hood. Let's talk.

[d3x]

@Garmr- I apologize, I got the vezo/mollie thing backwards. The point still holds. You each had 1 ScumRead killed by the SK. I don't find this remotely as compelling as you seem to think it is. Also, nowhere have I advocated keeping mollie alive at LyLo. She's not GroupScum, thus she's not Today's Lynch. Point out where I've said otherwise {after we had conclusive evidence that an SK was in this game}.

Official Vote Count

TiphaineDeath

(6):

T S O

, TheWayItEnds, Kthxbye, StrangerCoug,

FFAE00 FFED00

, Mom<Ank>

FFAE00 FFED00

(6):

Titus

, Majiffy<Kise>,

I Am Innocent

, Nero Cain,

vezokpiraka

,

Aunt Jemina

Garmr

(1):

I have no creativity

pirate mollie

(1): Josh_B

T S O

(1): TiphaineDeath

Hostile Intent

(1): pirate mollie

StrangerCoug

(1): PeregrineV

Yiley

(1): d3x

TheWayItEnds

(1): Garmr

Not Voting

(6): inte<Pine>,

Hostile Intent

,

Wake88

, RachMarie, Lucky2u, Yiley<Fish>

Based on this VC, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that Nero and Kise are Town. I find it really hard to believe that of the 6 players on the Wagon, more than 3 Scum would stack up.

[d3x]

*Town=Not GroupScum... SK is still a possibility

[d3x]

Anyone seen Pine recently? He's ~5 days absent here, but that is not even close to consistent elsewhere...

I just checked back to inte's Iso and I am not impressed. In hindsight, I'm not too thrilled with Pine's Iso, either. p2782, p2813, and p2813 stick out pretty harshly, in particular and there's 0 interaction with any now know Scum aside from the soft defense of Titus Yesterday {linked posts}.

[d3x]

I suspected that this would be the Claim and considering Scum was already aware of the Role, asking for the TD Claim was a no brainer... I mean, ScumTitus was in the Neighborhood. The only thing lost by not Claiming would be information to the rest of the Town. This strongly supports TownTD, in spite of the VCA mentioned earlier. If the living member of the Neighborhood is Town and at some point Confirms that Titus was in the 'Hood, it all but guarantees that TD is a Town Neighborizer. I feel like bringing a Scum partner into the 'Hood is pointless if TD is Scum.

I'll address everything else later tonight when the baby is in bed.

[d3x]

kthxbye was in my null pile for most of my big-ass post, then I saw he had voted former fish before I even got there, maaaajor town points, so I slotted Him in to town.

Kthx has directly ghosted my Vote 7 previous times, why should it make an impact on your Read when he did the 8th?

what is your PV/Josh read?

I have had Josh in my Scum pile for freaking ages. The Fake Hider Clear frustrated me, b/c he just kept posting scummy shit. I felt very validated {if a tad peeved} when it came out that the Claim was bullshit. His TownRead on a dead player threw me for a loop when it was pointed out that it was the Scum Kill and not the SK's. Right now, I have him as very reluctantly Town. While it is possible he was faking it or he forgot simple b/c he may have not been the one to actually submit the Kill, I feel it's enough to take him out of the suspect Pool at this stage.

I have had P5 as largely Null all game. His early D1 posts made me feel he was Town Leaning. His huge lack of activity tempered that tremendously. His VCA felt pretty Town, but if it's not a joke, the posting frequency thing feels pretty scummy. I'd say at this exact juncture, I have him as a slight Town leaning Null.

--Happenings--

I gladly accept Nero's explanation for the team thing. If further clarification is needed, please refer to my previous VCA point about why I think he's Town.

Considering I largely believe TD is telling the truth re: his Claim, I find that there is at least 1 Scum in this pool...

Official Vote Count

TiphaineDeath

(6):

T S O

, TheWayItEnds, Kthxbye, StrangerCoug,

FFAE00 FFED00

, Mom<Ank>

My personal feeling is that TWIE is Town. I do not feel in the slightest that Yesterday was superficial. I am leaning pretty heavily towards Town on Ank, as well. Kthx has been making my teeth hurt for the vast majority of the game. I'm curious if he'll follow this Vote as well.

UnVote:
Vote:Kthx

My case, such that it is, largely stems from a wealth of meta. I have seen

nothing

that feels like TownKthx this game. I feel very uneasy about his continued subradar play.

At this juncture, I strongly feel that the LynchPool for Today should be one of Kthx, SC, or Pine. This is only tempered by the fact that ScumAJ had recently vacated that Wagon to throw an ungodly amount of Scum support at the FFWagon.

@House- Calm the fuck down. You are in no real danger of being the Lynch right now. It is pretty ridiculous to say that you have no idea why you're under suspicion from a few players considering the staunch defense you mounted of ScumTitus. That is understandable, but I personally feel that the conclusion is completely off. I feel that your defense of her in the face of her almost certain Lynch stands to show that you are in fact Town. Chill the fuck out, mate. Seriously.

[d3x]

With that in mind, does it change your Read on him knowing that he was Sheeping someone almost every time... even if it wasn't you?

Basically, I'm trying to understand the purveying thought that Kthx is Town. He keeps showing up on Town Lists and I can't figure out why. True, he hasn't been overtly scummy, but that does not a Town Read make.

[d3x]

Run a dual Iso of me and Kthx. You'll see the pattern immediately.

[d3x]

I still <3 you, mollie...

[d3x]

@P5- Talk to me about 4 GroupScum building the same Lynch...

Official Vote Count

TiphaineDeath

(6):

T S O

, TheWayItEnds, Kthxbye, StrangerCoug,

FFAE00 FFED00

, Mom<Ank>

FFAE00 FFED00

(6):

Titus

, Majiffy<Kise>,

I Am Innocent

, Nero Cain,

vezokpiraka

,

Aunt Jemina

Garmr

(1):

I have no creativity

pirate mollie

(1): Josh_B

T S O

(1): TiphaineDeath

Hostile Intent

(1): pirate mollie

StrangerCoug

(1): PeregrineV

Yiley

(1): d3x

TheWayItEnds

(1): Garmr

Not Voting

(6): inte<Pine>,

Hostile Intent

,

Wake88

, RachMarie, Lucky2u, Yiley<Fish>

[d3x]

@Mod

- Can we get a prod on Kthx, plz?

[d3x]

I will have more thoughts when I have more time. I just woke up, am cooking breakfast, and spending family time. When I can read in depth for more than a few posts, I'll do so {late tonight, maybe}.

[d3x]

@P5- And yet, you're still Voting Nero...

I'm obv back and will be catching up/posting in the next hour or so. I'll be creeping around if anyone has any questions for me in the meantime.

[d3x]

Prod Patrol 1st...

@Mod

- A Prod on TWIE, plz.

People I refuse to Vote for Today

Nero
Kise
mollie
TWIE
House
d3x

People I'd rather not Vote for Today

Josh
Rach
Ank
P5
TD

People I'd need a little convincing in order to Vote for Today

Garmr
SC

People who can die in a fire Today

Kthx
Pine
Fish

Specific things...

I am not a fan of Pine's p3462. Not only is it more griping about how long the game is and how tough it is to read it, it's pretty empty of original thought. He spends more time talking about what he should do than what he's actually done. It's overall light on substance an heavy on wordliness.

@Garmr3463- Humor me. Who are your ScumReads? And why?

I have been having a hard time getting a solid Read on Rach. The understandable infrequency coupled with the sheer amount of inconsequential posting {seriously, I know more about your moving process than I ever wished to } is making it harder to separate the kernels of game related content.

I have a problem with Garmr3488. If you Lynch someone you think is the SK and they'r not the SK, why would you continue Hunting the SK?!? There's still Scum in them thar hills! The Scum are actively working to eliminate us. The SK seems to not be doing that. This means that the clear course of action should be to wipe the Scum out 1st. What is you reasoning for the SK Hunt?

I dislike Fish3534 for he same reasons that I dislike Pine's. The difference is, Fish isn't trying to regurgitate popular opinions, he's just talking about what he's going to do instead of doing it.

Garmr3543 is where I moved him down a peg in my Reads List. This is really manipulative posting and I don't like it one bit. Here's why...

the house wagon
the former fish wagon

the house wagon is not one I'm going to push because of i think his town.
the former fish wagon has no real substance.

Now the people on these two wagons don't seem to want to vote the other wagon and it's going to end up in a stale mate.

Finally there's a wagon both those sides will agree on AKA Mollie.

Here's SC saying he's against the mollieWagon.

Quite honestly, I don't get what the wagon on you is about. You're SK? For what, exactly? Secret meta says you're scum? Why should I, the kind of player who screws meta in the butt, care about that?

Here's Rach saying she's against a mollieWagon.

J do not get the whole Mollie is scum thing that is why I was asking garmr. Not being lazy, still in a motel until the weekend. We FINALLY have a house and get the keys late tomorrow. I am not getting a scum read on her I think she is town

Here's Kthx saying he's against a mollieWagon.

Town for me are:

PM (yup, still town reading her)

And here's TD saying he's against a mollieWagon.

No, you're town and we need you, so quit your bitching and get your vote back on fish where it belongs.

So unless I'm misunderstanding something in that post, the Wagon that Garmr is trying to paint as having the secondary support of the 5 members of the other highest Wagons, pretty directly has 4/5 players clearly stating that they are in fact against it. Ain't that some shit. What's up, Garmr?

Unvote:
Vote:Fish

@Ank- Follow me, broheim.
@mollie- There's room for you, too.

[d3x]

Is your Kthx ScumRead based solely on p3562? Did it develop at that point or has it been there for a while?

[d3x]

Interesting.

So when you said...

no ones even waggoning my scum reads so may well get rid of sk.

...but there was a growing Wagon on Kthx, why didn't you join?

[d3x]

@PV- Stop ignoring me.

@Eveything else- I'll get to you later.

[d3x]

@Garmr- Why did you choose to not respond to anything else from my p3583? I'm curious to hear a response to the 2ndary Lynch Claim. Did I understand you correctly when I said you asserted that 5 players would back the mollieWagon? And then I showed that this was a lie?

@Kthx3591- No, I don't think it's harsh at all. Not only have I used that exact terminology earlier in this game, we're talking about Lynching someone. Lynching is pretty harsh, bro. I fail to see the difference. Or are you saying that my placement of you on my List is harsh?

@mollie3594- I hear what you're saying, but I'm not about to Lynch anyone who's not on my Scum List. I legitimately feel bad that you're having a shitshow time of it, love. I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

This needs to die Today. I'm not moving my Vote.

@Ank3598 {and anyone else fronting this opinion}- Explain to me NeroScum. I refuse to believe that 4/6 Wagoners were all ScumMates.

Spoiler: VoteCount

Official Vote Count

TiphaineDeath

(6):

T S O

, TheWayItEnds, Kthxbye, StrangerCoug,

FFAE00 FFED00

, Mom<Ank>

FFAE00 FFED00

(6):

Titus

, Majiffy<Kise>,

I Am Innocent

, Nero Cain,

vezokpiraka

,

Aunt Jemina

Garmr

(1):

I have no creativity

pirate mollie

(1): Josh_B

T S O

(1): TiphaineDeath

Hostile Intent

(1): pirate mollie

StrangerCoug

(1): PeregrineV

Yiley

(1): d3x

TheWayItEnds

(1): Garmr

Not Voting

(6): inte<Pine>,

Hostile Intent

,

Wake88

, RachMarie, Lucky2u, Yiley<Fish>

@P5- ^^ That is what you are not answering. You are

still

Voting Nero and not responding to me regarding this issue.

@page145- There seem to be a bunch of people talking about supporting a FishWagon without actually pushing/Voting. That bothers me almost as much as the landscape of Wagons being attempted have all pretty much shifted once a FishWagon became the out and out front runner. If he flips Scum, this will definitely be key to finding his partner{s}.

In 1165, 4 of the votes on FFFFF are scum.

Explain.

[d3x]

Think I'll keep my vote on Josh.

Not only is your Vote not on Josh, it'd better not change to Josh. Fish is the clear Lynch for Today.

[d3x]

Why scope Nero Last Night instead of TD?

[d3x]

Word.

UnVote:
Vote:Nero

[d3x]

Oh really, Pine? We've had 2 FakeClaims in this game and after getting a Scum result, it took 7 full pages and

me

asking Nero about something before he Voted him or even mentioned him. I'd say that at least demands a little questioning into the Claimed Cop's motives.

Did you have a problem with the fact that I questioned Titus's motivations when she Claimed a Track on HI on Day2?

[d3x]

I think we're L+1, btw... lol.

[d3x]

Why scope Nero Last Night instead of TD?

Word.

UnVote/Vote:Nero

Oh please, this is hardly an interogation.

Speaking of fake Investigation Results getting hyperLynched... is that why you defended Titus? I mean, she did exactly what you're saying hypotheticalScumP5 would be doing, but you neither Voted her, nor supported her Lynch. Explain.

[d3x]

You caught me. I'm so insidious that I wanted to discredit the Cop with a super basic question and then Voted L-3 onto his Result's Wagon.

[d3x]

Speaking of fake Investigation Results getting hyperLynched... is that why you defended Titus? I mean, she did exactly what you're saying hypotheticalScumP5 would be doing, but you neither Voted her, nor supported her Lynch. Explain.

[d3x]

@Mod

- Is the VC incorrect? You have Kise and TD Voting for Pine, but they both Voted Nero.

[d3x]

SK Hunting is still not the best play Today. This would be the most underwhelming ScumTeam to date if they were Goon, Goon, Tailor, Encryptor. We're still at population levels higher than a Mini, so I see no reason to deviate from actual GroupScum Hunting.

I feel that Fish's 'woe-is-me' schtick is tired. His previous 2 incarnations didn't do "next to nothing", they were

both

scummy. That's why Fish came under fire from word one. It likewise had nothing to do with "an unfavorable opinion about a certain player". Painting it any other way just smacks of AtE.

[d3x]

d3x please tell me you see where I'm coming from.

In terms of there still being GroupScum alive, hell yes. I'd say it's 1-2 GroupScum still alive.

In terms of TD being Scum? I can't follow you down that road, brother. I agree that the Scum dogpile onto FF looks crazy suspicious, but I believe his Claim and I highly doubt Scum had 2 communication based PRs {Encryptor and Neighborizer}.

[d3x]

@P5- Why did you not scope TD? It makes sense why you didn't check him out N4, but Last Night? He seemed to be by and large your #1 ScumRead Yesterday.

I know it's a bit of 'Outguess the Mod', but I don't see a Scum Neighborizer being xShot {where x>1}. Why would the Mod give the ScumTeam the restriction of an Encryptor and then give the means to just create a Neighborhood with DayTalk?

[d3x]

That makes my job to find the last one (or the SK).

Explain the part about you finding the SK as a Cop.

[d3x]

I'll be on in a few hours to fully read and give thoughts. If anyone has specific questions or wants my take on anything in particular, ask before then.

In the meantime...

Please tell me I'm not just going to be repeating LoL with you because this combined with the lack of any vote whatsoever (or any indication of why no vote) is getting me even more nervous about you.

Aside from me being Town in LoL and Town here, I'm not 100% sure what you're suggesting. I don't play many Larges and am generally much less engaged until later in the game. I think I've been way more

en pointe

here than LoL, though. I've been debating some things, spending some holiday time with family {and playing Bioshock, as you well know}, and ultimately wanted to wait on P5's Investigation before really digging in to Today. That last part happened this morning, so it's game on... later tonight.

[d3x]

Let's start with this...

@Pine- Answer me. Twilight Yesterday, I asked you some things and you ignored them. You pushed your agenda at me and then immediately dropped it Today. I've continued to question the Cop and Yesterday it was all but a Scum Claim. Today, you haven't batted an eye at anyone questioning the Cop. You've been an appologist for any remaining Mafia and that's all freaking shades of wrong. It is just as ridiculous to assume that we've swept the Mafia as it was to assume only one killing faction on D2. A single point of data does not a reliable conclusion make.

@Kthx- Post or die. I don't want to hear any bs excuses about Larges, this is D5 and it's been small enough to actually read the game for a few Day phases. You have clearly demonstrated that you are barely giving it a cursoury glance.

@TDWagon- This is not happening Today. I have a hard TownRead on TWIE, so he's not lying about the Neighborhood. That takes TD off of the table, in my book.

Scum:

TiphaineDeath (Can't see this as town)

<ftfy>

FormerFish/Garmr/Pine (Remainder of scumteam is probably here)
RachMarie (Probably it if someone outside the above isn't scum; literally the only slot I have no read on whatsoever)

Good reads

I think a lot of our problems would be solved if people take time to read the game instead of skim reading

QFFuckingT

@Garmr p3894- Why?

@P5 p3904- That's not how Cop/SK/FBI works... Cop Investigates for Mafia. FBI Investigates for SK. SK isn't Cop Investigation Immune... they're not Mafia and Investigate as such. That's standard, bro. That... should be in your RolePM. You Investigate for Mafia/Not Mafia. Right...?

A bulletproof, investigation-immune Serial Killer shooting into a crowd that is almost pure Townie is far more dangerous than a greatly-reduced scum team that is NOT bulletproof, NOT investigation-immune, and is being hunted by a (likely) Doc-protected Cop

Unless either killing faction finds any hypothetical Doc. Unless the SK is shooting for Mafia. Unless the Mafia are gunning for Town PRs. Unless we Lynched the only PR that can find the SK.

@Fish- What is the mollie ScumTell that caused you to gun for her immediately upon replacing in?

Vote:Pine

[d3x]

@Garmr- How do you see TownAnk compromising Late Game?

@Fish- Convenient that the secret Tell that allowed you to skip 113 pages may never see the light of day...

[d3x]

It's convenient because it sounds made up as shit. It's convenient because your "mystery Tell" allowed you to Sheep easily onto a push that had been going on for Days without having to formulate anything remotely like a Read. It's convenient because without backing up the Tell with actual proof, you could say that about any player at any time, and hide safely behind it as Scum with no expectations to be held to your Read.

You and at least one of your previous incarnations have been pushing the easy Wagon on mollie without having to justify squat for ages now. That's pretty convenient, in my book. I fail to understand how this has avoided your grasp of conveniency. I don't recall you building anything even resembling a transarent case on her. That must be one hell of a good Tell.

[d3x]

I'm hoping that this is better than Titus's Tell on mollie...

@mollie- Do you know what Fish is hiding behind?

[d3x]

Book of Shadows Mollie walked in, acted confused and never provided any substance during day 1. It was perpetual "confusion" despite nothing confusing happening. She was so obviously scum there Desp and I bussed her to victory. She's learned a bit since then. Her later posting appears townie but the same opening gives off alarm bells for me.

Mollie's first post was that of confusion which was the sane stance she tookall of day 1. Her content has been improving but I am suspicious whenever Mollie is confused without a specific question.

I also played in Orangic Chemistry with scumMollie. She fell into the same patterns while having quite a few protown looking posts.

[d3x]

@Fish- I paid little attention to the names in your hydra back then, because neither were familiar to me. It only dawned on me earlier tonight that you were the other head {I've since played with Desp once or twice}. I fail to see how any of that is relevant, however, because we're talking about this Tell of yours. I linked the posts indicating Titus's Tell on mollie, since you said you didn't know what Tell Titus was using. Is that the same Tell?

@Garmr- I'm very much not against it; he's pretty high on my ScumList for the many reasons I've been toting since D1. I'm waiting on a few things first, though.

[d3x]

And I don't appreciate being called a moron, but to each his own, I guess.

You say that you never defended her. I say it was a consistent SoftDefense.

You say you covered this. I say you glossed over it.

You say I misrepped you into a Vote. I say you tried to derail the Wagon and have consistently held the opinion since D4.

btw- Answering the questions of Twilight Yesterday were not the only things I wrote to you in p3983.

[d3x]

making a single post expressing skepticism that she'd do something that stupid, and asking her to explain herself is neither soft defending nor derailing. That's why it's misrepresentation - you're grossly exaggerating what I did and did not say

I'll play ball.

Spoiler: More than one example...

Titus seems like a really obvious lynch. I'd like her to explain herself though, as I'm not sure I buy scum making such a big blunder

Pushback against TitusLynch. 'Too scummy to be Scum'

If you've posted and not voted Titus, I want you to straight up explain, in detail, why you aren't voting Titus.

Nope nope nope

Don't care about Titus right now

Vote bullying and implied blackmail is a HUGE scumtell for me

Vote: kthxbye

Chainsaw defense.

You know what else you're doin that I don't like?

Rushing

If it's such a lock, what's the hurry? At worst you get nothing. At best, associative tells on her buddies while she's flailing

I'm thinking a Titus scumflip leads back to kthxbye. This could very easily be bandaid-ripping powerbussing

Attempt to slow/derail

The rush to hyperlynch Titus reeks of groupscum. Not sure whether it's scum looking for an easy PR mislynch, scum looking for an SK lynch, or scumbussing to get a short, unproductive day

Either way, I don't like it

Attempt to slow/derail

TL;DR: Regardless of Titus's flip, quicklynching her is in scum's favor. I'm not inclined to oblige

Attempting to slow/derail

I would contend that when we're 100+ pages into a game, we have more than enough associative Tells to move forward on such a blatant FakeClaim.

Oh, dear Lord... we're on to the grammatical arguments? Really?

As for being an apologist (which is how you spell that word,) I haven't been.

'grats. I added an extra "p". Either way, you've been an

apologist

for Mafia here, here, and here.

3983 makes some bullshit statements, it doesn't ask questions.

'grats. In the strictest sense of the word "question", you are correct. I defer to your clearly superior grammatical sense. I should have said that there are statements that you should answer to.

As for dropping my push against you, so what? Are you really so self-concerned that you're going to hunt down anyone who even looks at you funny?

This doesn't even make sense. If I was concerned about you coming after me, why would I bring it up when you stopped? I'm clearly more concerned that you

stopped

coming after me. If you had continued {or even mentioned it}, it would feel more like a legitimate push. As it stands, it feels more like you were expecting your Kill to go through Last Night and wanted to set me up nicely as a patsy for questioning the Cop in Twilight.

And wait a damn minute - who questioned the cop today?

Read the thread, bro. I can't do it for you.

[d3x]

Kthx for SK 2014

[d3x]

@Kthx- TD is ConfNeighborizer with at least 3 shots. That has

no place

on the MafiaTeam we've seen flipped. I see what the VCA says, but the meta doesn't add up in any sensible fashion. Mafia Encryptor with a Neighborizer? I mean, really? What's the penalty to eliminating DayTalk if they can just build a freaking Neighborhood with DayTalk? And that doesn't even begin to speak to the overlap on a seriously hindered Mafia Team against an Investigative/Protective combo. There's no balance in Goon{x2}/Tailor/Encryptor/Neighborizer/? vs SK vs Cop/Protective/Bomb/?. I don't think I've ever seen jT build a broken setup, so I'm not even entertaining that option.

TD is off the table. You think that Mafia may behind the push on mollie, presuming she's the SK. What does that tell you about their identity? Any theories? Because TD isn't pushing her as the SK...

@Ank- How do you feel about Kthx's admonishment for SK Hunting and then immediately throwing down speculation that mollie fits the SKbill?

[d3x]

I must have missed the post where the Neighborizer gave the neighborhood day talk?

The only reason we even know that the Neighborhood exists is that Titus outted it... in the middle of the Day... by telling TD to go to the 'Hood to discuss something. It was later Conf'ed by TD and TWIE to exist. How does this

not

suggest that they have DayTalk?

I've been a scum neighborizer so don't play the 'they are almost always town' card either.

I know that you were a Scum Neighborizer. We were in that game together. You Neighborized me. Not only am I not even remotely making that argument, why on Earth would I? At this point, you're building up imaginary arguments to break down because you can't answer mine. If you're suggesting that MafiaTeam is balanced, give me one of the "many scenarios" where that combo works together in balance against an Investigative/Protection/Bomb/? Town and an SK.

You're also assuming only 1 scum left.

Wrong. I clearly have Neighborizer in there along with the question mark. Considering TD is alive, that'd assume 2. You're wrong about him, but that doesn't change the fact that there are 2 live Mafia in my list of PRs. Also, the ?s aren't meant to be an exact count, considering I have no idea how many living players are PRs {either Town or Mafia} or if Mafia have 1 or 2 left.

I'm not presuming anything about PM either.

Ok, dude... it's time for basic reading comprehension. I said that your theory for Mafia pushing mollie as the SK is based on

their

presumption that she is the SK. You aren't even pretending to read any more, are you?

And finally, even if I was saying that you were presuming mollieSK in that post, you clearly were here...

I'm getting the feeling PM might be SK after all.

So why are you getting defensive about it now?

[d3x]

I'm confused, P5... are you saying that you believe TD's lying or that he's a Mafia Neighborizer?

I don't see what the Scum motivation would be to withhold the 3rd Neighbor. Is there one? Or are you just conjecturing? Since TWIE has Conf'ed the Claim, are you thus suggesting that they're Mafia together?

Were it me in his position, I'd use the shots to clarify Reads. That's what I did when I was a Neighborizer.

I'm not really sure how to answer you, because I don't understand your stance, I guess...

[d3x]

Just to clarify, you're asking TD but speaking to me? Or do you somehow expect me to answer 1-6 for him... or what?

I'm having a hard time with this conversation because you started off by responding to me and quoting me, but then asking questions that I cannot possibly know. So is there something that you want me to answer?

[d3x]

@Kthx- TD is ConfNeighborizer with at least 3 shots. That has

no place

on the MafiaTeam we've seen flipped. I see what the VCA says, but the meta doesn't add up in any sensible fashion. Mafia Encryptor with a Neighborizer? I mean, really? What's the penalty to eliminating DayTalk if they can just build a freaking Neighborhood with DayTalk? And that doesn't even begin to speak to the overlap on a seriously hindered Mafia Team against an Investigative/Protective combo. There's no balance in Goon{x2}/Tailor/Encryptor/Neighborizer/? vs SK vs Cop/Protective/Bomb/?. I don't think I've ever seen jT build a broken setup, so I'm not even entertaining that option.

re: "thoughts on his TWIE scumread"- I'm not sure what you're talking about. I believe he was talking about his current Vote on Ank.

[d3x]

I just traded with Garmr all yesterday+last night.

Explain, plz. I don't think I'm understanding you.

[d3x]

UnOfficial Vote Count

Garmr (4): Kise, pirate mollie, House, RachMarie
pirate mollie (3): Pine, Formerfish, Garmr
Formerfish (3): StrangerCoug, Ankamius, PeregrineV
TiphaineDeath (1): Kthxbye
Pine (1): d3x
Ankamius (1): TiphaineDeath

Not Voting (1): TheWayItEnds

We have just over a week to deadline. We need to start consolidating the Wagons.

I'd Vote Garmr over mollie in a 1v1 scenario. I'd Vote Pine or Fish over either. If a FlashWagon on Kthx sprung up, I would not be upset. Without a Guilty, I'm not Voting TD... ever.

Vote:Fish

[d3x]

meh. I think 2 out of 4 Doc saves justifies my existence a little.

gg all.

Oh, and Garmr...

Also a note to dex you bloody idiot wtf did you claim dr in a neighborhood i was setting up kise to take the scum bullet and if there was scum in the neighborhood that outed you you ruined my plan and got yourself killed that was so so dumb. If there isn't then I fucked up and my plan would of never worked.

The play was mine to make, not yours. You don't get to decide how and when I Claim, dude. TD was ConfTown to me as soon as I was Recruited and it would've been insanely stupid of TWIE to off me right after I Claimed. It would've instantly outed him. The play was solid because it was the only 'safe' way to get my info out to the Town. Shame on you for taking shots at me after I died.