Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[eyestott]

I've decided that I'm going to stay up for just a while longer, as this is around the time that most players should be getting up.

[vettrock]

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

My vote on you was an RVS vote. Its only purpose is to get the game moving. As RVS votes move around information is created.

perhaps i misunderstood you when you said you werent a good one for informationless rvs cases? i read that as you saying youre not a fan of RVS voting. or did you mean something else?

Since I didn't really answer this. I acknowledge RVS is a necessary part of the game. I have a hard time building any kind of a case or putting things together early in the game as I don't think there is much to go off of. I'd ideally start in D2, but the problem with replacing in, is you are replacing in with an existing history, which I don't really like either.

[killapenwin]

Copper, 553 – for your information: I was planning to mislynch Davesaz in that game but he claimed a town-PR. (And that claim was detrimental to my already-bad state.) As for KillerPenguin: I think Tean is scum so, if Penguin is scum too, their early fight has been a faking. What do you think? Is it possible?

I think it is unlikely, Killa is looking a lot worse than Tean now.

Cooper, 568 – that is wrong!!!! In this setup there may be another Tracker too! If there is another tracker, claiming it is VERY bad for the town! It's simple math. Check the setup.

The second tracker would be a 1-shot, you are making the same mistake Eyes did, if there is a full tracker out there he should absolutely claim.

I'm not sure how you can say that. Tean dropping off the radar doesn't make me scum. Didn't you practically ask trackers to out themselves in day 1?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

we still have plenty of time to find scum

copper is still pushing for a pr reveal of a tracker even though numerous people have told him he could be wrong.
he then resorts to being rude.

that being said, would a scum push such an obviously bad plan and then double down on it when pressured? idk my gut tends to say no. but a town would see that its a bad plan once it was pointed out to them.

Something about that first line feels off when read in context.

619 - Anen, nothing in this post tells me why you're scum-reading eyestott. Try again.

622 - Yeah, over 600 posts into a game I expect you to have developed some reads. Where's the problem with that? Your reads-list was awful.

What else do you have at all? I've quick-checked your posts and I've found nothing else.

Here;

Spoiler: Questions/comments for Anen to respond to

The 'looking for confirmation' from Mastin for your read on me is weird as well. Not sure what I make of that yet.

460 - Another scummy post from Anen. Like, he is being careful here to make sure he can't be accounted for anything he says.

This reads-list is magical. Like, the ONLY people it looks like you wouldn't lynch from this list is Killa and Dave.
521 - Nah, not good enough. You said, and I quote;

So, are you voting for the same person as Dodgy right now? Hmmm... (However, I don't think you're scum. When I met you first your gameplay was similar.)

Either way, you still haven't addressed why you floated the idea that I was scum. Like, if you didn't think I was scum (which you said you didn't) then why even put the point I quoted in your post?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

634 - I'm starting to come around to the idea of Tean!Scum. Definitely need to see more from this slot.

640 - Wicked, you're missing the point. If you're scum-reading someone, do you try to convince them you're town?

Aneninen - null - gut says town, but slight issues prevent me from fully town reading

What issues?

[Tean Samargo]

@Wicked
Seeing that I will have to quote quite a bit, I feel like this gem deserves its own post.

Firstly, when examining what I posted, did you take in mind the context of the post? What it looks like is that you think my reply to penwin was a read. This is not exactly true. To understand my post fully, you must look at penwin's odd question:

@tean what do you think of mastin's holding her reads 'close to her chest'?

My post was/is

not

a current read of mastin. It was an opinion on her play earlier where she would literally just post "I think he's scum. Trust." and leave it for a day or two.

As for these branches:

The statement that “people are practically idolizing her” is a false exaggeration. I can't think of anybody that has come close to idolizing her. Tean, I would love to see examples that justify your statement.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense.

For these points, I would like to direct you to this lovely quote:

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

Here in this post, we see the white knight Eyestott defending the vague post. I see here that Eyestott is encouraging his fellow companions to trust mastin and to join the glorious dav bandwagon. He's fine with trusting her saying that she's a veteran, and/or the reason why she couldn't explain was because of a current game. 'Idolizing' might be a bit of a stretch, I must admit, but I do interpret this as blindly following seeing how quickly eye is willing to trust and defend mastin's 15 syllable argument.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense. Tean joined the bandwagon that mastin started (surely they wouldn’t have issue with that following, they took part in it) AND mastin was the one that followed the eyestott scrutiny, not vice versa.

Look, there's a little bit of a difference between "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining- lets trust him" and voting for someone with some sort of evidence. I thought that Dav was suspicious not because of what mastin had said, but because of his play. Two different things. You're sort of blowing it up and taking it out of context.

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

My opinion is based on Mastin's earlier play. This is

obviously

not an opinion on her

current

play. Especially after she started revealing more.

This whole post is absurd and feels like setting up to join a potential bandwagon that could form on mastin.

So you're suggesting that I think mastin to be scummy? No where in this post states that I thought that mastin was scummy. And please don't say disliking someone's opinion is scummy. I expect you to at least know this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember when I said I wanted to wait to reply to this until I got my hands on a computer? Well that's just one of my reasons. The other reason for waiting was that I wanted to see all the eager beavers willing to jump on the wagon even after I posted #589.

In short, I think Dodgy's vote was too eager to be towny. The speed in which it picks up can be compared to the majestic flight of a rocket ship (or shall I say rocket-sheep?). Quick and dirty.

Oh and it's funny to note that he said this too:

we still have plenty of time to find scum

Well dodgy?

[Tean Samargo]

@Copper
My opinion on the dodgy-eye interaction is that I think that they are likely tvs. I don't think both of them are entirely towny in behavior for separate reasons.

Eye- I like BBT's thoughts in #393 about eye's actions. I point specifically at the point where eye is trying to change dodgy's opinion.
Dodgy- I find his play seems to be too tunnel-y. Whatever eye posts, dodgy seems to go above and beyond to scum read it. The speed in which Dodgy suddenly drops his vote on eye (without question mind you), is very suspicious.

If one turns out to be scum, it's likely the other may be town.


I considered the possibility of svs. They know each other, so it's likely that they trust each other to bus. But I find their interactions were too loud and obvious. They are drawing too much attention to themselves.

[Heartless]

VET'S reads list is nothing short of heinous and scummy as shit

I will somewhat agree with heinous, but not scummy. Some people are good with D1 reads and digesting massive amount of information quickly, but I'm not one of those people. I'll continue to provide input, and I should have some more time now for some analysis.

(Honestly, as a vig I'd frankly just no-kill and play as if vanilla unless I deemed it necessary to make a kill.)

I general I agree with this, and how I would play it, especially early in the game. I think you are more likely to help scum than town. Late in the game however there may be a good case to use it.

tth's internet crush is scum, btw

For reference, who is tth's internet crush?

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

My vote on you was an RVS vote. Its only purpose is to get the game moving. As RVS votes move around information is created.

perhaps i misunderstood you when you said you werent a good one for informationless rvs cases? i read that as you saying youre not a fan of RVS voting. or did you mean something else?

Since I didn't really answer this. I acknowledge RVS is a necessary part of the game. I have a hard time building any kind of a case or putting things together early in the game as I don't think there is much to go off of. I'd ideally start in D2, but the problem with replacing in, is you are replacing in with an existing history, which I don't really like either.

i was talking about copper, i was yanking his and tth's chain though.
this is your idea of analysis? commenting on an off-the-cuff comment from mastin about a hypothetical vig question and asking about a joke i made on page 2?

[Tean Samargo]

@tean: whats your read on BBT atm?

I played my last game with BBT. His pattern of play sort of fit a part of it so far.
Here's the link:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58653

Summary of play:
-He white knights a townie to the extreme.
-Townie was slightly scummy (in my opinion).

Knowing this, I hesitate to call him a complete town. I do, however, some of his thoughts and posts. His scum hunting seems to be quite genuine as well.
He wins a strong-ish town lean.

[copper223]

Copper, 553 – for your information: I was planning to mislynch Davesaz in that game but he claimed a town-PR. (And that claim was detrimental to my already-bad state.) As for KillerPenguin: I think Tean is scum so, if Penguin is scum too, their early fight has been a faking. What do you think? Is it possible?

I think it is unlikely, Killa is looking a lot worse than Tean now.

Cooper, 568 – that is wrong!!!! In this setup there may be another Tracker too! If there is another tracker, claiming it is VERY bad for the town! It's simple math. Check the setup.

The second tracker would be a 1-shot, you are making the same mistake Eyes did, if there is a full tracker out there he should absolutely claim.

I'm not sure how you can say that. Tean dropping off the radar doesn't make me scum. Didn't you practically ask trackers to out themselves in day 1?

Tean's alignment is irrelevant for my read on you, my problem is that L-1 vote and the fact both you and Aneninen were shadow backing the Eyes wagon.

Yes and I explained why, do you dissgree or are you just trying to make me look scummy for it?

[Tean Samargo]

I do, however, like some of his thoughts and posts**

[Tean Samargo]

I'm freaking hungry. Faust signing off.

[Heartless]

oh i'm dancin' with myself
oh i'm
dancin'
with
myself
well there's nothin' to

lose

and there's nothin' to

prove

i'll be dancin with myself

tth is swamped right now so i'm taking executive action
reaffirming
VOTE: copper

[copper223]

I also really dislike Aneninen's reassesment of my read based on the Eyes wagon, I don't buy it because he was more than happy about it at the time and he sheeped my Dave read about there being a scum on Dave if he is town and not vice versa, it looks more like my townread was conditioanl on how I view either Killa or Dave or both, well if you are is scum good job making me look like a clown.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

658 - Vettrock, why is Anen town? Why am I town?

Are you seriously suggesting you left an RVS vote on Dodgy all this time? Even as his wagon was building you didn't think to take your RSV vote off? Hmm, I think I'd like to lynch you.

Why is tean town? Why is Heartless scum?

669 - Anen, you 'examine' the wagon but don't actually analyse anything. You examine the wagon and then state you will 'examine dodgy later', well, wouldn't the time be now? You know, when you're examining the wagon?

Is Copper scummy for being on the wagon or not? Your 'analysis' of him is pretty fluffy. You're scum-reading Mastin...someone whose read you trusted enough to believe I was town is now scum...Nah, this doesn't make sense. Explain.

Have I missed the examination of Dodgy/Mastin/Copper? I don't believe I have read it.

672 - Dodgy, you were pretty keen on Copper/Anen not too long ago. What's changed?

674 - Mastin, I didn't say you were defending me. I said you were town-reading me to get me off your back. I'm good now though, I think you're more likely to be town based on other (stronger) scum-reads.

[Tean Samargo]

I do, however, like some of his thoughts and posts**

After lunch edit/clarification:
Me liking his posts have nothing to do with my opinion on his alignment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Copper

[copper223]

@BBT
Let's talk about your Tean read for a moment, since you just went from Tean is super town and at least one of the players voting for him, Aneninen and Killa, are scum (with the utmost confidence), to I am coming around to Tean scum, what's the thought process there?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't 'just go'.

Don't misrep me.

One of Anen/Killa is still scum (most likely Anen)

[copper223]

I saw no transition passage, I don't care about who else you think is scum, I am playing this game assuming you suck balls but maybe I am doing you a disservice, so explain to me what in particular in Tean's play or the facts surrounding him made you come around to view him as potentially scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can smell OMGUS.

[copper223]

The point of the question is to understand if you suck.

[killapenwin]

@BBT:

Ok I have caught up to, @wicked no you are not insane, I do not know why BBT is trying so hard to defend Tean and buddying up to him.

@Aneninen sorry I am not 100% sure how to link multiple posts I think it has to do with the "Q+ button but I think that only allows you to do posts from a single page, whereas my comments covered Tean's posts over the whole thread. If you have Tean's ISO in 1 tab and my post in another it is not to difficult to cross-reference.

I am kind of feeling this Eyestott wagon and mostly because I don't like his indecisive style of play, it seems too noncommittal. It is almost as if he is justifying an excuse at the point of voting so that he can defend himself when things don't look too good for him if he makes a mistake for example. If you are making a point against someone you should be trying to convince others they are scum typically in a format like this:

Person .... is scum because ......(read/reason).. and ideally ->see this post ..(evidence/post)...

or at least in some format similar to that. When I read Eyestott's posts he just seems to be indifferent. I find a person who does that to be difficult to read, a player is either scum or not you may have conflicting points but at some point you are going to have to decide.

I played my last game against scumEyestott and he did the same that game, which is partly why I think the wagon on him is a better choice than the others proposed so far. I'll hold off voting for him right now as I would like to hear more from a few players mastin/vettrock/heartless first.

excuses mastin 127
133 the last sentence
181 last sentence
185 last sentence
194 second sentence of first point <- this is specifically what I was thinking of.
278 in the spoiler section in between his 924 and 82 quotes
325 second and third sentence
378 last sentence
383 <- this is also what I was thinking of, why doesn't he just say he is scum?

Do you understand what I mean by down playing his reads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Thanks Killa.

[Heartless]

,i think the vote should go on:
copper/vettrock/killa/anen

I'll take another look at copper and anen, but I wouldn't vote there right now because while I may vaguely understand the reasons for copper maybe being scum, I simply don't see either as being scum now. I also don't really see killa as scum, though I don't particularly see killa as town, either. (Just a guttown at this point.) Would vote vettock, though.

here, let's make it a little less vague then:

the interactions w/ this hydra (between me and tth) alone is pretty sketch because the progression is nonsensical and the disparity between the treatment of the heads is strikingly random. he was scumreading me Post 469 for reasons that were pretty much, "i don't like him and his posting style" and, specifically, he didn't like how i was pushing you because he viewed your line of questioning as something valid, so OBVIOUSLY he put some kind of credence into your opinion

tth comes in and

SUDDENLY

things change. somehow when she puts a bib on him and starts the spoonfeeding
,your reads actually DON'T track so great anymore and the whole "this is mastin-town's meta" fantasy that we were hearing about earlier in the game burns to the ground RIGHT quick.

hell, for all that, the interactions w/ tth aren't great either. more than anything all he did was slam the breaks on pushing me once he saw her coming. for the lip service about how he thought she was town, there's not much actual cooperation going, and any questioning is fairly superficial and doesn't have any follow up (see: thoughts on dave and eyestott vs dodgy). she went through the trouble of hashing out her townreads in Post 504 and copper doesn't seem to give two shits. what was it, didn't want to pick on someone his own size? b/c the dynamic i'm seeing RIGHT NOW between two people who are supposed to have a rapport from previous games is pretty goddamn dysfunctional and it looks like he's afraid of her because all the interactions are about as deep as a dime.

the rxn to the eyestott claim in Post 549 is also very NOT town b/c it overplays the indignation about an "early" claim and the needless "FML" stands in HUGE contrast to this whole "logic-y" persona that's been going the whole game. coppers been on him nearly the whole game, but somehow he now wants to look at me and argue that MAYBE IN THE VERY SMALL WINDOW OF TIME BETWEEN NOW AND DEADLINE he was going to change his mind and ease up off eyestott which is disingenuous at best.

...and for his apparent distaste for my glibness to mastin, he seems to gave gotten the art of potshot attacks perfected. case in point, Post 713 re: anen. a while back, i got taken

down

to

clown

town

and told that anen WAS SO BEAUTIFULLY TOWN because of style from two previous games (one of which he wasn't even there for). what did it take for this journey to meta never-never land to go to doo-doo?
anen taking his townread back
(coincidentally, this is the most town anen's been all game)

...and all the sudden BTT SUCKS, GUYS...

cutting off threats seems to be an important thing now. wonder how long it's going to take copper to start magically "scumreading" me.